Bhattacharya: Something Has Got to Give - JO Speculation

Bhattacharya: Something Has Got to Give - JO Speculation

Postby bhatta on Mon May 07, 2007 1:30 am

Here's my latest at HOOPSWORLD: link

With the Lakers expected to make big changes this offseason, the resolve of three members of the organization is going to be tested. Moving in a new direction means that someone's wishes will have to be pushed aside.
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Postby CrazyLikeCatfish on Mon May 07, 2007 3:19 am

Great read. Thanks bhatta. This offseason is going to be soo long. :man10: @ your avatar..
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Postby BDG on Mon May 07, 2007 9:51 am

Very nice read, bhatta.

Seems pretty realistic. Plus we'd have our MLE to play with ... could probably pick up a decent PG ... hopefully one that isn't 36 years old.

I really do have concerns about JO though ... whether or not the guy can stay healthy.
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Postby LaLaKeRz4LiFe on Mon May 07, 2007 10:30 pm

BDG wrote:Very nice read, bhatta.

Seems pretty realistic. Plus we'd have our MLE to play with ... could probably pick up a decent PG ... hopefully one that isn't 36 years old.

I really do have concerns about JO though ... whether or not the guy can stay healthy.
If we trade Odom for JO, I would/should be worried and Tinsley might break down too. So the best thing that I would do (don't know if this could happen) is to just trade kwame, radman, bynum and the picks.
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Postby Hector The Pup on Mon May 07, 2007 10:42 pm

2nd round pick for Sarunas?

On what planet does that one work?
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Re: Bhattacharya: Something Has Got to Give - JO Speculation

Postby GCMD on Mon May 07, 2007 11:01 pm

bhatta wrote:Here's my latest at HOOPSWORLD: link

With the Lakers expected to make big changes this offseason, the resolve of three members of the organization is going to be tested. Moving in a new direction means that someone's wishes will have to be pushed aside.


The real problem with your scenario is we are still soft in the middle.

LO at PF? We are still a donut in the middle.


JO is a true PF. That's where he bolongs. If we get him and happen to keep LO (not likely), LO needs to go to SF, pronto.

And you are forgetting that the Pacers will get better offers than Kwame and Vlad, even if Bynum is included. Only talent that they are likely to want is LO/Bynum...

They could be looking for Kwame's expiring contract but it's not a net gain with Vlad'scontract on the books for the next 4 years...not to mention they have Dunleavy and Murphy playing similar positions for more money...they'd be right back at a logjam at SF/PF...


So, in theory, what you pose is a good idea. Not going to happen and there are som big flaws in the lineup...JO at C? LO at PF?

There's got to be a better alternative.
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Postby bhatta on Mon May 07, 2007 11:05 pm

I should have explained the Sarunas thing better, it does come out of left field.

The Warriors are going to have to pay the luxury tax next season if they hang onto their talent (meaning they re-sign Barnes, Ellis, and Biedrins). Their owner doesn't want to pay the tax again like he did this year and is going to look to find any way he can to shed payroll. Jasikevicius made it very clear that the Warriors would be silly in trying to bring him back next season, and he's making $4-million next season to sit on the bench. The Warriors simply won't need him.

The trick for the Warriors would be to send Jasikevicius out in a non-simultaneous trade and receive a collection of second-round draft picks and a trade exception in return. Doing so would provide the team with $4-million in cap relief, not having to guarantee deals for their draft picks or use the trade exception, bringing their cap figure down.

I've run the deal by some CBA people and they said it works. Larry Coon never responded, though.
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Postby revgen on Mon May 07, 2007 11:21 pm

I don't agree with your assessment of Lamar Odom not being 2nd option. Sure he's been inconsistent during the regular season, yet he's has averaged 19 ppg in the playoffs the last 2 seasons along with double-figure rebounding and distributing the ball. And unlike Kwame and Luke, Lamar doesn't seem to let the injuries affect his play.

The real problem with Lamar is that he doesn't provide balanced scoring as a 2nd option. We need a guy who can score in the post and create an Inside/Outside game to create balance. That way all players can have opportunities off of double-teams on Kobe or the post player.

Lamar is more of slashing/shooting kind of player, which is unique for a guy his size, but ultimately doesn't create balance because Kobe is similar. This combination could have probably worked well in Rudy T's system, but not in a half-court style offense.

I personally think that we need to keep Drew. I think that he can be the post player we need to provide balance. And he doesn't need to be an all-star to do it. He just needs to put up about 12-14ppg. This should be enough to force the defenses not to double on Kobe or Lamar at the top of the key. One of our problems on offense this year has been defenders leaving Kwame or Drew to double Kobe or Lamar. It's not a coincidence that we play well when our post players (Kwame or Drew) play well. We played well in November and in January when Drew was really hitting his stride offensively. We were never the same when Drew hit the wall and Kwame never came back fully healthy.

I think the best way for us to improve would be to trade our role players if it's possible. GS did pretty well trading role players. They ended up going to the 2nd round while 2 superstars (Yao and T-mac) are left wondering what could have been because they didn't have a competent supporting cast. We need more Mo Evans' and less Brian Cooks.
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Postby Hector The Pup on Mon May 07, 2007 11:36 pm

Interesting idea, but it doesn't explain how the Lakers can get him for a 2nd round pick. They won't have a trade exception to make it work and couldn't get one that works without sending out $4 million worth of contracts themselves nor would they have the ability to do so.

GS could make a trade for an exception and a 2nd round pick, but the Lakers don't have what it takes to do it themselves.

I guess the Lakers could send out Mihm in a S&T to a team under the cap for an exception to use to make it work, but that would leave them without even the promise of a center if they did ship Kwame and Bynum for Oneal. Hardly worth it for Sarunas.
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Postby Showtime is Magic on Tue May 08, 2007 12:05 am

This is going to be a complicated summer....After reading this and the SKY thread, deals are getting harder and harder b/c of the cap. Hopefully something can get done
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Postby revgen on Tue May 08, 2007 12:10 am

Showtime is Magic wrote:This is going to be a complicated summer....After reading this and the SKY thread, deals are getting harder and harder b/c of the cap. Hopefully something can get done


Superstar deals are difficult. Not role players though.

I hope the front office doesn't get tunnel-vision on a superstar deal like KG or JO. Our role players can definitely improve, and I think these are the improvements that can most realisticly be made.
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Postby LA-gone-SA on Tue May 08, 2007 1:10 am

JO is going to take KWAME/BYNUM/LO and prob take tinsleys contract!we would give up toomuch! and get an ugly contract! :bang:
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Postby GCMD on Tue May 08, 2007 3:47 am

revgen wrote:I don't agree with your assessment of Lamar Odom not being 2nd option. Sure he's been inconsistent during the regular season, yet he's has averaged 19 ppg in the playoffs the last 2 seasons along with double-figure rebounding and distributing the ball. And unlike Kwame and Luke, Lamar doesn't seem to let the injuries affect his play.

The real problem with Lamar is that he doesn't provide balanced scoring as a 2nd option. We need a guy who can score in the post and create an Inside/Outside game to create balance. That way all players can have opportunities off of double-teams on Kobe or the post player.

Lamar is more of slashing/shooting kind of player, which is unique for a guy his size, but ultimately doesn't create balance because Kobe is similar. This combination could have probably worked well in Rudy T's system, but not in a half-court style offense.

I personally think that we need to keep Drew. I think that he can be the post player we need to provide balance. And he doesn't need to be an all-star to do it. He just needs to put up about 12-14ppg. This should be enough to force the defenses not to double on Kobe or Lamar at the top of the key. One of our problems on offense this year has been defenders leaving Kwame or Drew to double Kobe or Lamar. It's not a coincidence that we play well when our post players (Kwame or Drew) play well. We played well in November and in January when Drew was really hitting his stride offensively. We were never the same when Drew hit the wall and Kwame never came back fully healthy.

I think the best way for us to improve would be to trade our role players if it's possible. GS did pretty well trading role players. They ended up going to the 2nd round while 2 superstars (Yao and T-mac) are left wondering what could have been because they didn't have a competent supporting cast. We need more Mo Evans' and less Brian Cooks.


I don't agree with this assessment.

LO has never been a good slasher. NEVER...he is content to stand around the perimeter making passes. If he were to slash, he'd be great. He'd be able to out quick most PF's to the paint but who ELSE (since he's supposed to be the primary facilitator?) is there to make the right pass? Only people we have that can do that are Kobe and Luke. Maybe Farmar.

LO can't play PF for us because he doesn't know how to play in the paint 100%. Playing on the perimeter is the gimmick for PF, not the staple. If we can't score in the paint, our perimeter game becomes infinitely more predictable and defendable. LO has proven that not only CAN'T he score in the paint consistently, he doesn't LOOK to score in the paint at all.

His facilitating duties were taken away from him last year at the AllStar Break. That's when he started to be more aggressive.

I really wish that you wouldn't list the few times that LO has shown up without FULLY acknowledging that it was the exception and not the rule.


Let's get this straight:

Kobe does everything humanly possible to help this team win...

If LO was doing everything a #2 option should, we wouldn't have struggled the way we did. We wouldn't need to look for another #2 option. And it's not about his stats. He really didn't have a papable impact on the game nor did he ever develop chemistry with Kobe. Creating a great tandem is paramount. We can't expect great things from our bench is our 2 best players can't work together. We can't expect to be a great team if our tandem doesn't make the team better.


Knowing this, we can now state that LO doesn't earn the money he's paid. That's way too much for a #2 option that doesn't produce like a #2 and it's DEFINITELY too much for a 3rd option...

I like LO. I would like for him to succeed. I had high hopes for him. I still do. But it's on him. 3 years is long enough. If this were only about his production or his own personal achievements, it would be fine. But we are building a team. This team starts with Kobe. Anything that doesn't fit with that cornerstone doesn't help this team.

Period.

If Kobe wasn't the best in the league, I wouldn't type it. But he is. LO is far from it. My allegiance is with the Lakers and if I have choose what is best for the Lakers, it's not even close. And we have already established that Kobe and LO doesn't work. So what is more important? The Lakers getting to a top level? Or keeping a "nice guy" because you "like" him?

Call me cold-blooded, but last time I checked, being a millionaire and playing the game you love doesn't make you any more worthy of pity than the next guy who goes thru the same thing...and don't forget that this is a business. We are allowed to trade because sometimes, we SHOULD trade...to get better.

And that's more important than sentimental decisions...
Feel free to ignore anything I say...

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Postby revgen on Tue May 08, 2007 10:50 am

GameCockMD wrote:
I don't agree with this assessment.

LO has never been a good slasher. NEVER...he is content to stand around the perimeter making passes. If he were to slash, he'd be great. He'd be able to out quick most PF's to the paint but who ELSE (since he's supposed to be the primary facilitator?) is there to make the right pass? Only people we have that can do that are Kobe and Luke. Maybe Farmar.


He's a very good slasher when he's aggressive. And like I said before, he's been inconsistent during the regular season. I'm not trying to excuse it.

GameCockMD wrote:LO can't play PF for us because he doesn't know how to play in the paint 100%. Playing on the perimeter is the gimmick for PF, not the staple. If we can't score in the paint, our perimeter game becomes infinitely more predictable and defendable. LO has proven that not only CAN'T he score in the paint consistently, he doesn't LOOK to score in the paint at all.


Like I said before, he hasn't been consistently scoring in the post like he can during the regular season. I'm not going to make excuses for it. However, he's always brought it when it counts during the playoffs.

GameCockMD wrote:His facilitating duties were taken away from him last year at the AllStar Break. That's when he started to be more aggressive.


As I've said before in other threads, LO is not our best half-court faciliator. This is not surprising. He shouldn't be the initiator in the half-court. It should be Luke's job.


GameCockMD wrote:I really wish that you wouldn't list the few times that LO has shown up without FULLY acknowledging that it was the exception and not the rule.


Few times?

2 consecutive playoff seasons, he's put up 19 points and double-figure rebounding and dishes for assists. This is not an exception.

He's shown me for 2 seasons that he brings it when it counts. It's good enough for me. Obviously, for some reason or another, it's not good enough for others.

GameCockMD wrote:Let's get this straight:

Kobe does everything humanly possible to help this team win...


I agree, thats why he's our leader.


GameCockMD wrote:If LO was doing everything a #2 option should, we wouldn't have struggled the way we did.


Our struggles had to do with injuries, defense, and role players not stepping up when core players go down. Kobe wasn't scoring 33 ppg early in the season. We was scoring about 28 ppg when we were 26-13.


GameCockMD wrote:We wouldn't need to look for another #2 option. And it's not about his stats. He really didn't have a papable impact on the game nor did he ever develop chemistry with Kobe.


As I've said before, 2 slashers doesn't work well in the triangle or any half-court offense for that matter. And it can affect chemistry if their isn't some decent play in the post to keep the double teams from coming from there. Kwame is never a threat, so bigs always come out to help on LO and Kobe. The only times that this wasn't happening as much is when Drew was hitting his stride in November and January. A little production in the paint is all that is needed to provide some balance.

Is it really a coincedence that we won game 3 when Kwame scored 19 points? I don't think so. All we need is at least 12-14ppg from the center position, and it'll be enough to keep the post defenders at bay. A little balance is all that is needed.

GameCockMD wrote:Creating a great tandem is paramount. We can't expect great things from our bench is our 2 best players can't work together. We can't expect to be a great team if our tandem doesn't make the team better.


A tandem doesn't necessarily make a team great. Look at Yao and T-mac.

The GSW have only one star and a very talented group of complimentary players. They didn't seem to have a problem getting past the #1 seed.

We need to upgrade our roleplayers. Our core is fine.

GameCockMD wrote:Knowing this, we can now state that LO doesn't earn the money he's paid. That's way too much for a #2 option that doesn't produce like a #2 and it's DEFINITELY too much for a 3rd option...


Lamar has been consistent when it counts. There are plenty of all-stars who can't do that. Gasol, Okur, and AK-47 being the first 3 that come to my mind.

What's the point of having a great regular season if you can't bring it when your team needs it? LO hasn't had this problem for 2 consecutive playoff seasons now. Even this season, he managed to do it while riddled with injuries.

GameCockMD wrote:I like LO. I would like for him to succeed. I had high hopes for him. I still do. But it's on him. 3 years is long enough. If this were only about his production or his own personal achievements, it would be fine. But we are building a team. This team starts with Kobe. Anything that doesn't fit with that cornerstone doesn't help this team.

Period.


Our problem isn't LO. It's our defense, and our roleplayers. Some are lazy, while others are developing.

GameCockMD wrote:And we have already established that Kobe and LO doesn't work. So what is more important? The Lakers getting to a top level? Or keeping a "nice guy" because you "like" him?


The problem isn't LO, the problem is role players who can't produce for various reasons. The other problem is defense.

GameCockMD wrote:Call me cold-blooded, but last time I checked, being a millionaire and playing the game you love doesn't make you any more worthy of pity than the next guy who goes thru the same thing...and don't forget that this is a business. We are allowed to trade because sometimes, we SHOULD trade...to get better.

And that's more important than sentimental decisions...


It's not about being cold-blooded or about sentimentality.

You just don't trade a guy who gives you 19ppg, double-figure rebounding, and a some dimes when it counts. Unless you can get somebody else that you're sure will have greater impact in return. There aren't too many guys out there that can give what Lamar has given in the postseason for us the last 2 seasons even as first options. They almost certainly make more money than he does too.
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Postby no_dont on Tue May 08, 2007 11:37 am

^ I cant tell if revgen responses to GC are serious or funny, or seriously funny
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Postby revgen on Tue May 08, 2007 11:47 am

no_dont wrote:^ I cant tell if revgen responses to GC are serious or funny, or seriously funny


If you have something to say, don't hesitate to send me a PM.
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Postby no_dont on Tue May 08, 2007 12:14 pm

You say on a couple occasions that
*he hasn't been consistently(but you're not making excuses)

You also say he brings it when it counts. Huh? When it counts as we have learned the last 2 years is for 82 games. 1,2,3,games etc. is what has seemingly kept us out of a better seed.

Plus you use is injuries as an excuse. he is injury prone, and if hes not he doesnt show up 100% of the time when healthy anyway.

He is our 3rd best facilitator (brought here to be #1)
he is our second best scorer by default. yet when he flaunders on that end straps always say look at his RB's.

His D is avg at best. Show when he has locked somebody down CONSISTENTLY (theres that word again)

he hangs out outside all game. It will be his 8th year and you think he will change his stripes?
His magical year in Miami they were 42-40, the last 2 years here, 42-40. You see he is not an impact player. just a guy who fills a role w/out anything extra. He is an RB's guy. Except w/out the d previous RB guys brought.

Also when it was Luke/Kobe we played some of our best ball. Our record was only 12-9 but we had tough teams, and some on the road. We were better then than we were early in the season when all were healthy. Early we caught teams.
LO isnt good enough to be
*2nd scorer
*Primary defender
*Facilitator

what now
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Postby revgen on Tue May 08, 2007 12:34 pm

no_dont wrote:You say on a couple occasions that
*he hasn't been consistently(but you're not making excuses)

You also say he brings it when it counts. Huh? When it counts as we have learned the last 2 years is for 82 games. 1,2,3,games etc. is what has seemingly kept us out of a better seed.


Role players and defense have kept us from getting a better seed. Not LO.

no_dont wrote:Plus you use is injuries as an excuse. he is injury prone, and if hes not he doesnt show up 100% of the time when healthy anyway.


I never said that injuries were the main problem. I specifically counted role players and defense as the most important problems. Of course, you fail to mention that.

LO shows up 100% of time in the playoffs whether he's healthy or not. It's good enough for me. I've seen too many all-stars who don't, so I can appreciate what Lamar does in the postseason.


no_dont wrote:He is our 3rd best facilitator (brought here to be #1)
he is our second best scorer by default. yet when he flaunders on that end straps always say look at his RB's.


He was brought in to be the #1 facilitator in Rudy T's system. Not Phil's system. He's our 2nd best facilitor since he's the best on the break and our 3rd best in the half-court.

no_dont wrote:His D is avg at best. Show when he has locked somebody down CONSISTENTLY (theres that word again)


His man-2-man defense is above-average at best. Average at worst. His team defense is pretty good, but not great.

If we had more role players who could play D (especially at the PG postiion) he certainly doesn't hurt us. Once again, we need role players who can complement our core. Until we do, we're not going to get better.

no_dont wrote:he hangs out outside all game. It will be his 8th year and you think he will change his stripes?
His magical year in Miami they were 42-40, the last 2 years here, 42-40. You see he is not an impact player. just a guy who fills a role w/out anything extra. He is an RB's guy. Except w/out the d previous RB guys brought


He doesn't hang outside during the playoffs. He does it during the regular season, and as I've said before, there is no excuse for that. However, this deficiency is not worth trading him unless we get a greater impact in return. There are simply not too many guys in his price range that play the way he does in the playoffs.

Teams need roleplayers to complement their core. We don't have enough of them. They are either lazy, clueless, or they are young and need to develop.

Until we get those role players, our regular season will be mediocre and our playoff seasons will be disappointing for years to come regardless of what superstar we bring in for LO.
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Postby lakerfanforlife78 on Tue May 08, 2007 3:50 pm

That was a great article. Why? Because it spoke the truth. There are alot of clowns out here thinking this team can just flip a switch and become an elite team out of nowhere. This article explains how difficult it is to reload. I love that Laker team you proposed with Farmar/Kobe/JO/Odom/Walton, but is it really feasible for the Pacers to trade JO for Bynum, the 19th pick, and two pieces of trash (Brown and Vlad)?

KG is out of the question. Only way he wears purple and gold is if the Lakers sign him for the MLE in '08.

I think this team should revisit Gasol/Mike Miller from Memphis. One is a great low post player, the other is a fantastic shooter. Maybe the Lakers could trade some package for those two?

Who knows, it's all a longshot. I fully expect this team to be a bad one next year. My expectations have never been lower for this organization. And hoping Mitch Kupchak can pull us out of mediocrity is like trying to put out a forrest fire with a water gun.
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Re: Bhattacharya: Something Has Got to Give - JO Speculation

Postby tttppp on Tue May 08, 2007 9:12 pm

bhatta wrote:Here's my latest at HOOPSWORLD: link

With the Lakers expected to make big changes this offseason, the resolve of three members of the organization is going to be tested. Moving in a new direction means that someone's wishes will have to be pushed aside.


Thats just pure bs. Couldn't be further from the direction the Lakers are actually going.
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Re: Bhattacharya: Something Has Got to Give - JO Speculation

Postby KB24 on Wed May 09, 2007 2:16 am

tttppp wrote:
bhatta wrote:Here's my latest at HOOPSWORLD: link

With the Lakers expected to make big changes this offseason, the resolve of three members of the organization is going to be tested. Moving in a new direction means that someone's wishes will have to be pushed aside.


Thats just pure bs. Couldn't be further from the direction the Lakers are actually going.


thats exactly the kind of mature and intelligent posts we are looking for.

thanks for your contributions...
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Postby Ed Guru on Wed May 09, 2007 2:54 am

I'm just impressed anyone knows the direction the Lakers are going right now!

At least we have a Summer to look forward to.. for once I'm optimistic that we may actually pull off something.

I like the J-LO option (JO plus LO), but don't like JO without LO.
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