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trodgers
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 Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| GuRu wrote: |
| bhatta wrote: |
Just throwing this out there -
If a USC win over Arkansas isn't a quality win because the team improved significantly throughout the season, should a Michigan win over an overrated then-#2 Notre Dame team be considered a quality win? Scenario is a little different, but this is going to turn into the slipperiest of slopes, won't it? |
Well, possibly, though Im not sure ND is exactly overrated. But Michigan doesnt have to play the "quality win" game. If they lose, they are in the NC, if not, they go to the RoseBowl. No controversy. |
You said at the time that ND was hellishly overrated. I disagreed then and I disagree now, but I wanted to point that out. 
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Lakerman JSJ
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:56 am Post subject: |
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I can't believe you can't see another perspective GuRu.
As WestCoast pointed out, its not as if we were anywhere near what we are today either. We had a new QB, a FRESHMAN starting RB, and our best player (Jarrett) was only about 70% healthy and wasn't a factor yet we still went into a hostile environment in our FIRST game and threw up 50!
Arkansas gets a free pass for virtually the same reasons though? I just don't get it. 
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Lakerman JSJ
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:47 am Post subject: |
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Too...Much...Logic... 
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GuRu
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| k0pr0phage wrote: |
| GuRu wrote: |
| bhatta wrote: |
Just throwing this out there -
If a USC win over Arkansas isn't a quality win because the team improved significantly throughout the season, should a Michigan win over an overrated then-#2 Notre Dame team be considered a quality win? Scenario is a little different, but this is going to turn into the slipperiest of slopes, won't it? |
Well, possibly, though Im not sure ND is exactly overrated. But Michigan doesnt have to play the "quality win" game. If they lose, they are in the NC, if not, they go to the RoseBowl. No controversy. |
You said at the time that ND was hellishly overrated. I disagreed then and I disagree now, but I wanted to point that out. |
At the time I thought they very much were. And it came to the forefront as Michigan dominated them in every aspect, at home, and then they had to miracle comeback against lowly MSU the following week.
But, even though it hasnt been against the best competition, Quinn has shown me hes a good QB. I still contend he hasnt won an important game yet, but I hope does soon (...er...USC). I also stated that he was out of the Heisman race, but I dont think that any longer the case. Its either him of Troy Smith now. If Michigan makes Smith look bad, its Brady's to lose.
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GuRu
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| Lakerman JSJ wrote: |
I can't believe you can't see another perspective GuRu.
As WestCoast pointed out, its not as if we were anywhere near what we are today either. We had a new QB, a FRESHMAN starting RB, and our best player (Jarrett) was only about 70% healthy and wasn't a factor yet we still went into a hostile environment in our FIRST game and threw up 50!
Arkansas gets a free pass for virtually the same reasons though? I just don't get it. |
Oh, I see your perspective just fine, but I think youre having trouble seeing mine. Its not that Im shying away from giving credit for USC's growth and their injuries as well, but no matter who is injured on the Trojans side or how young their team was, it doesnt take away from the fact that I just dont see an Arkansas beatdown counting for as much 3 months ago as it would count for today. It was a different team then and it was without their workhorse, McFadden.
Now the fact that USC was young themselves or had their own injuries goes a long way towards explaining where USC has come from over the course of the season, but it still doesnt make that win look any better. Unfortunately, the ones who make the decisions arent going to take that into account. They are simply going to look at a win over SEC leading Arkansas (perhaps) and count it as just that, but I dont see it nearly as black and white as that.
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Aonex
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: |
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So GuRu you want a USC loss against both Cal and ND, huh? You sure that's still cause of the BCS mess that might ensue or something else? Cause one loss will do.
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TXLAKERFAN
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| Aonex wrote: |
| So GuRu you want a USC loss against both Cal and ND, huh? You sure that's still cause of the BCS mess that might ensue or something else? Cause one loss will do. |
Another USC, ND, Fla, and Ark loss will cause a BCS mess. And I don't think its all that unlikely because 2 of those teams have to lose again and all except ND have lossable games before the 4 teams pair with each other.
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Aonex
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: |
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So if you want to maximize the potential BCS mess, then you'd cheer for a USC loss to Cal and a SC win against ND.
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TXLAKERFAN
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Aonex wrote: |
| So if you want to maximize the potential BCS mess, then you'd cheer for a USC loss to Cal and a SC win against ND. |
Thats what I'm rooting for, along with a Ark loss to LSU or/and a Fla loss to FSU and a Fla loss to Ark or vice versa whichever is necessary.
 UT doesn't go no major school goes, we see a rematch or Mich or Oh St destroy a Big East team.
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Aonex
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| GuRu wrote: |
Oh, I see your perspective just fine, but I think youre having trouble seeing mine. Its not that Im shying away from giving credit for USC's growth and their injuries as well, but no matter who is injured on the Trojans side or how young their team was, it doesnt take away from the fact that I just dont see an Arkansas beatdown counting for as much 3 months ago as it would count for today. It was a different team then and it was without their workhorse, McFadden.
Now the fact that USC was young themselves or had their own injuries goes a long way towards explaining where USC has come from over the course of the season, but it still doesnt make that win look any better. Unfortunately, the ones who make the decisions arent going to take that into account. They are simply going to look at a win over SEC leading Arkansas (perhaps) and count it as just that, but I dont see it nearly as black and white as that. |
GuRu, I fail to follow your logic, especially after you concede the fact that USC was not the same team back then as well. The premise of your argument is that Arkansas is not the same team they are now because, for various reasons stated before (although this is still up for debate how significant these differences were), they were somehow inferior… and because of this, beating an inferior team is less of an accomplishment and has less meaning. However, If USC’s team was also inferior due to various injuries, etc., then the fact that USC beat Arkansas with an inferior team means that the accomplishment is just as significant. Am I missing something here? Maybe you’re also taking into account Arkansas’ change in ranking? Or maybe there’s something more meaningful about a late season win compared to an early season one? Could you explain?
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TXLAKERFAN
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Aonex, Ark IMO is the team that improved the most during the season out of any other team. Nothing else really measures up. Michigan plays ND again I think you get the same result. Oh St. plays UT again and I think you may get the same result. USC play Ark again and I think the results are much different. It has nothing to do with injuries or anything like that. Team wise I feel Arkansas has come along way since the beginnning of the season.
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trodgers
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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USC downs Cal, ND downs USC! Do it, Mitch!
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trodgers
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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I'm rooting for Pitt. This is one heck of a game so far.
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GuRu
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Aonex wrote: |
| GuRu wrote: |
Oh, I see your perspective just fine, but I think youre having trouble seeing mine. Its not that Im shying away from giving credit for USC's growth and their injuries as well, but no matter who is injured on the Trojans side or how young their team was, it doesnt take away from the fact that I just dont see an Arkansas beatdown counting for as much 3 months ago as it would count for today. It was a different team then and it was without their workhorse, McFadden.
Now the fact that USC was young themselves or had their own injuries goes a long way towards explaining where USC has come from over the course of the season, but it still doesnt make that win look any better. Unfortunately, the ones who make the decisions arent going to take that into account. They are simply going to look at a win over SEC leading Arkansas (perhaps) and count it as just that, but I dont see it nearly as black and white as that. |
GuRu, I fail to follow your logic, especially after you concede the fact that USC was not the same team back then as well. The premise of your argument is that Arkansas is not the same team they are now because, for various reasons stated before (although this is still up for debate how significant these differences were), they were somehow inferior… and because of this, beating an inferior team is less of an accomplishment and has less meaning. However, If USC’s team was also inferior due to various injuries, etc., then the fact that USC beat Arkansas with an inferior team means that the accomplishment is just as significant. Am I missing something here? Maybe you’re also taking into account Arkansas’ change in ranking? Or maybe there’s something more meaningful about a late season win compared to an early season one? Could you explain? |
My point is very simple. Arkansas wasnt the same team then. They were missing their starting QB and their starting RB, who just happens to be the most important player on their team. I understand that USC wasnt 100% either, but the fact that both teams were depleted doesnt make the Arkansas win any more significant.
Id compare Arkansas back then to beating....say.....South Carolina.
Its not really important anyway, I was just trying to justify that if you really look into some of these matchups that teams are so quick to call "quality wins" you could find some very valid reasons they werent quality, Michigan included (Notre Dame).
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trodgers
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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I hope someone else is watching Pitt/WV. It's an amazing game so far, and there was just one of the most amazing blocks I've ever seen (Kinder on that punt return). Tied at 24 at the half.
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Aonex
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| GuRu wrote: |
| Its not really important anyway, I was just trying to justify that if you really look into some of these matchups that teams are so quick to call "quality wins" you could find some very valid reasons they werent quality, Michigan included (Notre Dame). |
So it sounds like what we're left with is the SOS from computers. Since speculation about quality wins is purely subjective anyway, and as you say each supposed quality win can be broken down and discredited (this applies to all teams) then really, it's pointless to make these kinds of arguments.
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Frank The Tank
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| k0pr0phage wrote: |
| I hope someone else is watching Pitt/WV. It's an amazing game so far, and there was just one of the most amazing blocks I've ever seen (Kinder on that punt return). Tied at 24 at the half. |
I watched it. That block was crazy. |
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GuRu
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| Aonex wrote: |
| GuRu wrote: |
| Its not really important anyway, I was just trying to justify that if you really look into some of these matchups that teams are so quick to call "quality wins" you could find some very valid reasons they werent quality, Michigan included (Notre Dame). |
So it sounds like what we're left with is the SOS from computers. Since speculation about quality wins is purely subjective anyway, and as you say each supposed quality win can be broken down and discredited (this applies to all teams) then really, it's pointless to make these kinds of arguments. |
No, what Im saying is that SOS by computers is innacurate.
Solution? 8 team playoff.
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Aonex
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:38 am Post subject: |
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SOS is inaccurate? And individual perception isn't? I think that's been proven to be just as bad in this discussion. Sure, a playoff might be more fair, but in the end there will still be teams left out... aside from all the other logistical issues.
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trodgers
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Aonex wrote: |
| SOS is inaccurate? And individual perception isn't? I think that's been proven to be just as bad in this discussion. Sure, a playoff might be more fair, but in the end there will still be teams left out... aside from all the other logistical issues. |
Leaving a team out of the top 8 is a small problem compared to having to decide the one game that will decide the national championship. If you're not obviously top 4 material, then you're obviously not #1 material. So no one with a legit problem would be let out of an 8 team playoff system.
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Aonex
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Fair enough... I don't disagree with that. I disagree with the playoff system for other reasons... but if we're looking for the fairest way to find a national champion, then a playoff is the way. My issue is more on arguing about quality wins and SOS.
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trodgers
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Aonex wrote: |
| Fair enough... I don't disagree with that. I disagree with the playoff system for other reasons... but if we're looking for the fairest way to find a national champion, then a playoff is the way. My issue is more on arguing about quality wins and SOS. |
It's tough to do, I totally agree.
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GuRu
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Aonex wrote: |
| Fair enough... I don't disagree with that. I disagree with the playoff system for other reasons... but if we're looking for the fairest way to find a national champion, then a playoff is the way. My issue is more on arguing about quality wins and SOS. |
Why in the world could you possibly disagree with a playoff system?
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Lakerman JSJ
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| GuRu wrote: |
| Aonex wrote: |
| Fair enough... I don't disagree with that. I disagree with the playoff system for other reasons... but if we're looking for the fairest way to find a national champion, then a playoff is the way. My issue is more on arguing about quality wins and SOS. |
Why in the world could you possibly disagree with a playoff system? |
Although I disagree with the logic, people have made the "It lowers the stakes on the regular season" arguement in the past.
This weekend for example would still be awesome, but both OSU & Michigan would still be assured of a birth in an 8-team playoff no matter the outcome so some of the tension would be taken out of the game.
I don't agree with this logic, but I understand the point of view.
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Aonex
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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I'm against if for two reasons:
1. It takes away from the regular season - This isn't just the "regular season is the playoffs" argument (although that has some merit to itself), but I think that having a playoff system could have disasterous effects on how universities schedule their non-conference games. Instead of scheduling tough opponents to bring up strength of schedule, schools will more likely schedule more patsies so that they can coast in to the playoffs with a better record. The logic here is that since there's less pressure to get one of those top two spots, teams can go on just their conference schedules alone to bring a team up to one of those eight spots. So I think that takes away from the exciting non-conference games that take place during the season. Also, as JSJ stated, the magnitude of these huge showdown games would be reduced.
2. It takes away from the bowl games - This means the Rose, Fiesta, Orange, and Sugar bowls, traditionally the major bowls which have the most significance and are accomplishments in it of themselves for a team to reach, would be reduced to merely stop overs for playoff games... much in the way the Final Four tournament works. I think that it would be a travesty if we lost all that history and richness... which is what separates the college game from the pros.
Having a clear national champion without controversy is less of a concern for me than losing the identity of college football... that's what the NFL is for.
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GuRu
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Lakerman JSJ wrote: |
| This weekend for example would still be awesome, but both OSU & Michigan would still be assured of a birth in an 8-team playoff no matter the outcome so some of the tension would be taken out of the game. |
No offense, but this game would be no less important to the teams/players/fans if there was a playoff system. This is Michigan/Ohio St. This is everything, every year. Ranked, not ranked, championship berth, battle for last place in the Big 10 (never gonna happen). The general population may be less concerned, but there is no taking away from this game, no matter what system is implemented. Its 100 years of hate.
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GuRu
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Aonex wrote: |
I'm against if for two reasons:
1. It takes away from the regular season - This isn't just the "regular season is the playoffs" argument (although that has some merit to itself), but I think that having a playoff system could have disasterous effects on how universities schedule their non-conference games. Instead of scheduling tough opponents to bring up strength of schedule, schools will more likely schedule more patsies so that they can coast in to the playoffs with a better record. The logic here is that since there's less pressure to get one of those top two spots, teams can go on just their conference schedules alone to bring a team up to one of those eight spots. So I think that takes away from the exciting non-conference games that take place during the season. Also, as JSJ stated, the magnitude of these huge showdown games would be reduced.
2. It takes away from the bowl games - This means the Rose, Fiesta, Orange, and Sugar bowls, traditionally the major bowls which have the most significance and are accomplishments in it of themselves for a team to reach, would be reduced to merely stop overs for playoff games... much in the way the Final Four tournament works. I think that it would be a travesty if we lost all that history and richness... which is what separates the college game from the pros.
Having a clear national champion without controversy is less of a concern for me than losing the identity of college football... that's what the NFL is for. |
Im sorry, but I disagree with that on almost every level. Im about to leave for the weekend or id elaborate more.
Have a good weekend. Go Wolverines and Go Cal Bears!
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Frank The Tank
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| GuRu wrote: |
| Lakerman JSJ wrote: |
| This weekend for example would still be awesome, but both OSU & Michigan would still be assured of a birth in an 8-team playoff no matter the outcome so some of the tension would be taken out of the game. |
No offense, but this game would be no less important to the teams/players/fans if there was a playoff system. This is Michigan/Ohio St. This is everything, every year. Ranked, not ranked, championship berth, battle for last place in the Big 10 (never gonna happen). The general population may be less concerned, but there is no taking away from this game, no matter what system is implemented. Its 100 years of hate. |
That's what I was saying the other day. They just don't get it. |
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Aonex
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| GuRu wrote: |
| Lakerman JSJ wrote: |
| This weekend for example would still be awesome, but both OSU & Michigan would still be assured of a birth in an 8-team playoff no matter the outcome so some of the tension would be taken out of the game. |
No offense, but this game would be no less important to the teams/players/fans if there was a playoff system. This is Michigan/Ohio St. This is everything, every year. Ranked, not ranked, championship berth, battle for last place in the Big 10 (never gonna happen). The general population may be less concerned, but there is no taking away from this game, no matter what system is implemented. Its 100 years of hate. |
I'm sorry, but this is coming from a Michigan fan. From someone looking in from the outside, it isn't as big a deal as it is now since they're both ranked.
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Aonex
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| GuRu wrote: |
Im sorry, but I disagree with that on almost every level. Im about to leave for the weekend or id elaborate more.
Have a good weekend. Go Wolverines and Go Cal Bears! |
Haha... why am I not surprised. I wanna hear this next week.
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