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kobe_the_truth
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 41
Location: ny
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 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| TRADE ODOM FOR A BETER PF MAYBE A BOOZER ETC |
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MasterRaider
Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 3084
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| kobe_the_truth wrote: |
| then he wil be mature enough to be an allstar and i woudnt expect nothing less than 20+ ppg this season |
You guys are overestimating Bulter.
Before Odom was injured, Butler was garbage. The Boozer trade falling out and Odom getting injured turned out to be a blessing in disguise because Butler RAISED HIS STOCK. We need to trade him while we can because if we start the season with Odom and Butler again, Butler will look like garbage AGAIN, and we'll get peanuts for him.
Butler will be a good player, but he won't do much to propel any team to a contender. On an average team, I can see him putting up 18, 6, and 3 (assuming he's one of the first 2 options). He's not a great passer and doesn't really create for others. He's a finisher and has the athleticism to be a decent defender. I think Gerald Gree and Danny Granger will be better than Butler. |
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Savage1
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 1397
Location: NY
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| MasterRaider wrote: |
| kobe_the_truth wrote: |
| then he wil be mature enough to be an allstar and i woudnt expect nothing less than 20+ ppg this season |
You guys are overestimating Bulter.
Before Odom was injured, Butler was garbage. The Boozer trade falling out and Odom getting injured turned out to be a blessing in disguise because Butler RAISED HIS STOCK. We need to trade him while we can because if we start the season with Odom and Butler again, Butler will look like garbage AGAIN, and we'll get peanuts for him.
Butler will be a good player, but he won't do much to propel any team to a contender. On an average team, I can see him putting up 18, 6, and 3 (assuming he's one of the first 2 options). He's not a great passer and doesn't really create for others. He's a finisher and has the athleticism to be a decent defender. I think Gerald Gree and Danny Granger will be better than Butler. |
I agree. A lot of players can put up big numbers when they are among the first options on a bad or mediocre team. Butler picked it up when Odom was out because somebody had to pick up the scoring. |
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Kobe_One_Kenobi_8
Joined: 13 Apr 2003
Posts: 3574
Location: Culver City, CA (Fox Hills)
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Savage1 wrote: |
| MasterRaider wrote: |
| kobe_the_truth wrote: |
| then he wil be mature enough to be an allstar and i woudnt expect nothing less than 20+ ppg this season |
You guys are overestimating Bulter.
Before Odom was injured, Butler was garbage. The Boozer trade falling out and Odom getting injured turned out to be a blessing in disguise because Butler RAISED HIS STOCK. We need to trade him while we can because if we start the season with Odom and Butler again, Butler will look like garbage AGAIN, and we'll get peanuts for him.
Butler will be a good player, but he won't do much to propel any team to a contender. On an average team, I can see him putting up 18, 6, and 3 (assuming he's one of the first 2 options). He's not a great passer and doesn't really create for others. He's a finisher and has the athleticism to be a decent defender. I think Gerald Gree and Danny Granger will be better than Butler. |
I agree. A lot of players can put up big numbers when they are among the first options on a bad or mediocre team. Butler picked it up when Odom was out because somebody had to pick up the scoring. |
Good point. Fans tend to fall in love with a player too quickly. Hope, I'm wrong though and Caron becomes a star. |
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wavy
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 1894
Location: suhareka
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:33 am Post subject: ... |
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caron will never be a star with the lakers, i think it would be good for us to trade him for the 5th and 13th, everybody would benefit. the bobcats would get a good player (cuz caron would be good in charlotte) and the 10th pic which is good, and we would get better pics the 5th and 13th are oki think.
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KB24@CL
Clublakers Moderator
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 38921
Location: always in the near...
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 8:42 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| wavy wrote: |
| caron will never be a star with the lakers, i think it would be good for us to trade him for the 5th and 13th, everybody would benefit. the bobcats would get a good player (cuz caron would be good in charlotte) and the 10th pic which is good, and we would get better pics the 5th and 13th are oki think. |
 the more I think the more I like the idea for the Lakers
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LakersCourt
Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 949
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:40 am Post subject: |
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I do like the idea of shipping Mr. Butler out of here for #5 and # 13, but lets look at this realistically. #5 pick is not that great!!! Bogut, M. Williams, C. Paul and G. Green will all be gone by then!!! Yes, D. Williams will be available, but he isn't worth trading Butler for. I am sold one any of the above 4, but not D. Williams, even though he would do well in the Triangle(So would all above...except Chris Paul). My point is, while it looks good to move up to #5, its not as great as we envision.
However, the trade with N.O. would be great IF, Mitch found a way to ship Caron for the #4 pick straight up! I might be williing to also throw the 2 number 2's away for that , but NOT THE #10!!!
Lakers would then have 3 draft picks(2 in the lottery)
#4- Gerald Green(1st) Chris Paul(2nd)
#10-Fran Vasquez in a perfect world(1st!!) Tiago Splitter(if he stays in #2 choice). Chris Taft (#3)
#17- Andrew Bynum (he says he only wants lottery, but when he sees how loaded this team is, plus its the Lakers, and Phil jackson who would be coaching him, as well as the opportunity to be, "the next great bigman for the L.A. lakers". I say he stays in)
Lineup like this
Triangle offense, remember no Point Guard
Coach: Phil Jackson
G-Gerald Green
G-Kobe Bryant
F-Lamar Odom
F-Fran Vasquez or Tiago Splitter
C- Chris Mihm
Off the bench
Johnathan Bender-F
Chucky Atkins-G
Jermaine Jones-F
Andrew Bynum-C
Sasha Vujacic-G
Luke Walton-F
Devean George-F(I'd love it if we could get rid of Cook and Medvedenko for Bender and #17 and Keep George)
That's one damn impressive lineup  |
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quitkthanx
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 384
Location: San Clemente, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| That's exactly what we need... a highschool sg/sf as our new starting pg. No thanks. |
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LakersCourt
Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 949
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| quitkthanx wrote: |
| That's exactly what we need... a highschool sg/sf as our new starting pg. No thanks. |
Once again, there is no POINT GUARD in the Traingle.....anyone can bring it up. I just said that.
The possibility of adding Gerald Green, Fran Vasquez and Andrew Bynum all has to make one go |
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Savage1
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 1397
Location: NY
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| LakersCourt wrote: |
I do like the idea of shipping Mr. Butler out of here for #5 and # 13, but lets look at this realistically. #5 pick is not that great!!! Bogut, M. Williams, C. Paul and G. Green will all be gone by then!!! Yes, D. Williams will be available, but he isn't worth trading Butler for. I am sold one any of the above 4, but not D. Williams, even though he would do well in the Triangle(So would all above...except Chris Paul). My point is, while it looks good to move up to #5, its not as great as we envision.
However, the trade with N.O. would be great IF, Mitch found a way to ship Caron for the #4 pick straight up! I might be williing to also throw the 2 number 2's away for that , but NOT THE #10!!!
Lakers would then have 3 draft picks(2 in the lottery)
#4- Gerald Green(1st) Chris Paul(2nd)
#10-Fran Vasquez in a perfect world(1st!!) Tiago Splitter(if he stays in #2 choice). Chris Taft (#3)
#17- Andrew Bynum (he says he only wants lottery, but when he sees how loaded this team is, plus its the Lakers, and Phil jackson who would be coaching him, as well as the opportunity to be, "the next great bigman for the L.A. lakers". I say he stays in)
Lineup like this
Triangle offense, remember no Point Guard
Coach: Phil Jackson
G-Gerald Green
G-Kobe Bryant
F-Lamar Odom
F-Fran Vasquez or Tiago Splitter
C- Chris Mihm
Off the bench
Johnathan Bender-F
Chucky Atkins-G
Jermaine Jones-F
Andrew Bynum-C
Sasha Vujacic-G
Luke Walton-F
Devean George-F(I'd love it if we could get rid of Cook and Medvedenko for Bender and #17 and Keep George)
That's one damn impressive lineup |
The only problem I'd have with that starting lineup is that we have gotten ripped by smaller, quicker guards for years now. Starting Green (who is said to be a natural SF) would mean that most likely Kobe would end up guarding the smaller guys. He does a great job, but it takes a lot of energy and that's energy that he won't have on the offensive end. |
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Okki
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 605
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Let's use those picks 4 a good pg not a sf who's bringing up the ball and stuff like that.
Phil Jackson preffered bigger PG's like harper but he didn't prefer a SF for the triangle.
You ever saw Glen Rice or Rick Fox bring up the ball few times a game?
NO.
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JSM
Clublakers Site Manager
Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Posts: 64584
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Okki wrote: |
You ever saw Glen Rice or Rick Fox bring up the ball few times a game?
NO. |
That's because they didn't exactly have great handles. I will promise you that Phil will have Odom bring the ball up the court from time to time. Ever watch Scottie on the Bulls? Phil would use him to bring the ball up the court.
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EQualizer
Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Posts: 1696
Location: Irvine, California--->Atlanta, Georgia
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| MasterRaider wrote: |
| kobe_the_truth wrote: |
| then he wil be mature enough to be an allstar and i woudnt expect nothing less than 20+ ppg this season |
You guys are overestimating Bulter.
Before Odom was injured, Butler was garbage. The Boozer trade falling out and Odom getting injured turned out to be a blessing in disguise because Butler RAISED HIS STOCK. We need to trade him while we can because if we start the season with Odom and Butler again, Butler will look like garbage AGAIN, and we'll get peanuts for him.
Butler will be a good player, but he won't do much to propel any team to a contender. On an average team, I can see him putting up 18, 6, and 3 (assuming he's one of the first 2 options). He's not a great passer and doesn't really create for others. He's a finisher and has the athleticism to be a decent defender. I think Gerald Gree and Danny Granger will be better than Butler. |
agreed with 100% everything you said raider |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| EQualizer wrote: |
| MasterRaider wrote: |
| kobe_the_truth wrote: |
| then he wil be mature enough to be an allstar and i woudnt expect nothing less than 20+ ppg this season |
You guys are overestimating Bulter.
Before Odom was injured, Butler was garbage. The Boozer trade falling out and Odom getting injured turned out to be a blessing in disguise because Butler RAISED HIS STOCK. We need to trade him while we can because if we start the season with Odom and Butler again, Butler will look like garbage AGAIN, and we'll get peanuts for him.
Butler will be a good player, but he won't do much to propel any team to a contender. On an average team, I can see him putting up 18, 6, and 3 (assuming he's one of the first 2 options). He's not a great passer and doesn't really create for others. He's a finisher and has the athleticism to be a decent defender. I think Gerald Gree and Danny Granger will be better than Butler. |
agreed with 100% everything you said raider |
Agree. Butler MAY become Very, Very good, but not here. |
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Savage1
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 1397
Location: NY
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| Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Okki wrote: |
Let's use those picks 4 a good pg not a sf who's bringing up the ball and stuff like that.
Phil Jackson preffered bigger PG's like harper but he didn't prefer a SF for the triangle.
You ever saw Glen Rice or Rick Fox bring up the ball few times a game?
NO. |
It's true that those two weren't asked to bring the ball up, but that wasn't one of their strengths. By the time Phil came to coach both of them, they had already established what they were capable of.
I do remember Phil asking Devean George, in an annual exit-interview, to work on his ball-handling for the next season. Phil wanted to utilize George as an initiator of the offense. Phil tried it with Devean and it didn't work, so he does like to utilize bigger players to bring the ball up.
| Quote: |
| Phil Jackson preffered bigger PG's like harper but he didn't prefer a SF for the triangle. |
In Cleveland, I believe Harper was utilized as a SG more than a PG. Phil saw potential in Harper because of his athletic skills and intelligence so he wanted him to initiate the offense. |
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SWOL
Separated at Birth: Ron Artest
Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 12908
Location: Buena Park CA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:43 am Post subject: |
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WHAT ABOUT CARON AND 10
FOR MELVIN ELY AND 5
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Laker Jam
Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| Savage1 wrote: |
| MasterRaider wrote: |
| kobe_the_truth wrote: |
| then he wil be mature enough to be an allstar and i woudnt expect nothing less than 20+ ppg this season |
You guys are overestimating Bulter.
Before Odom was injured, Butler was garbage. The Boozer trade falling out and Odom getting injured turned out to be a blessing in disguise because Butler RAISED HIS STOCK. We need to trade him while we can because if we start the season with Odom and Butler again, Butler will look like garbage AGAIN, and we'll get peanuts for him.
Butler will be a good player, but he won't do much to propel any team to a contender. On an average team, I can see him putting up 18, 6, and 3 (assuming he's one of the first 2 options). He's not a great passer and doesn't really create for others. He's a finisher and has the athleticism to be a decent defender. I think Gerald Gree and Danny Granger will be better than Butler. |
I agree. A lot of players can put up big numbers when they are among the first options on a bad or mediocre team. Butler picked it up when Odom was out because somebody had to pick up the scoring. |
The only flaw with this thinking is that Lamar would be the THIRD option. His primary role under a Phil Jackson led team, would be to help other guys get there's, which suits Lamar just fine. That means Kobe is option #1 and Caron would be option #2 - and last season for the final 6 weeks, we saw what Caron does as a second option - 25/6/4/3. Those numbers are more than anyone can ask of a 2nd option, AND he did it shooting over 50% AND without plays being run specifically for him, while also getting steals and playing superb defense.
I'd still trade him if need be, but let's not start trying to say he isn't capable of this or that, because we flat out saw that he IS capable of all we could want or need. Hence why he's so valuable in trade. You think a team would trade TWO (2) lottery picks for a guy who isn't capable of that?
No need to diss Caron in order to justify trading him. NOT contending and NOT being in the playoffs, is reason enough without having to minimize a young player whose clearly coming into his own. We ALL hate to lose him, but we hate losing even more.
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Laker Jam
Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| swolswol wrote: |
WHAT ABOUT CARON AND 10
FOR MELVIN ELY AND 5 |
NO FRIGGIN WAY! Caron is worth that 5th pick and the 10th pick is already likely to be WAY better than undersized Melvin. That 10th pick could be Fran Vasquez, Jarret Jack, Raymond Felton - any number of guys who are starter worthy (something Ely still isn't). |
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kobe_the_truth
Joined: 01 Jun 2005
Posts: 41
Location: ny
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Trading up with Bobcats for #5 and #13 |
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| nn4299 wrote: |
I'm not sure if anyone else heard this but there was a rumor just now on 570 AM.
Lakers trade: Caron Butler and #10
Bobcats trade: #5 and #13 |
but this will be too much
caron and the 10 pick
for
the 5ft and the 13
im sure caron is better than that 5 pick right now or even the first pick remeber these rookie aint gonna produced right now u probly have to waite 2 years for them to become great and once again im sure there no lebron,wade r carmelo in the draft certainly not the 5 ft pick |
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lakers8kobe
Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: Trading up with Bobcats for #5 and #13 |
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Is Caron Butler and #10 bad than Bobcats #5 and #13?
No,this year's drafs are not very good![/b] |
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lakers8kobe
Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: Trading up with Bobcats for #5 and #13 |
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Is Caron Butler and #10 bad than Bobcats #5 and #13?
No,this year's drafs are not very good![/b] |
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DMK
Clublakers Analyst
Joined: 15 Feb 2005
Posts: 15733
Location: Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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I think using caron for a trade involving an already established NBA player would be better suited...
But then again, the more picks the higher percentage of success in picking the right one i suppose
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LOUIE04
Joined: 05 Jun 2005
Posts: 158
Location: Born & Raised in LA/ Stationed in Miramar!
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:19 am Post subject: i gotta question! |
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with no offense to anyone but where did this rumor come from cuzz im getting worked up about it knowing that we may have a chance at two first round draft picks!! is it in the works, is it a suggestion or is it something like that impossible Kevin Garnett rumor!?!  |
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Lakers4Ever
Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Posts: 1925
Location: Long Beach, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:03 am Post subject: Re: i gotta question! |
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| LOUIE04 wrote: |
| with no offense to anyone but where did this rumor come from cuzz im getting worked up about it knowing that we may have a chance at two first round draft picks!! is it in the works, is it a suggestion or is it something like that impossible Kevin Garnett rumor!?! |
It was announced a rumor on xtrasports am570 a few days ago.
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LakersCourt
Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 949
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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I am sold on this trade IF..... Charlotte will give up # 5 and #13 for Caron Butler alone. IF they agreed to this, I would pull the trigger. Butler and the 10th is way too much to give up.
We would then have three picks in the lottery
#5- Gerald Green or Chris Paul or Deron Williams(in that order)
#10-Fran Vasquez
#13- Andrew Bynum
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maddprophet
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 150
Location: Hotlanta, GA.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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no way we get that for caron alone. but we have 23 million in expiring contacts. if we do this and draft young players to build, can't we move some more of those expiring contracts for worthy, capable vets, if not a solid starter in there? pj brown, dale davis, and plenty more i'm not naming. we may be able to afford giving up caron and #10 for 5 & 13 if we truly believe in the players we'd hope to get there. I'm not sure i do, but if you do, then pull the trigger. there's other moves to be made. and don't sleep. slava can function well off the bench in phil's triangle, a nice scoring punch off the bench. him or cook, but the other or both are dispensible and servicable. options....
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Spark the ism, my expertism, is lyricism, my flow will take you over, like I was hypnotism..so where's the lighter.... |
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LakersCourt
Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 949
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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I just think the 5th isn't that great...here's why
1) Andrew Bogut
2) marvin Williams
3) Gerald Green
4) Chris Paul
See what I mean, your essentially trading a very good small forward for Williams, who doesn't really impress me. However if Green or Paul are avilable at #5 I pull this deal with no hesitation. |
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LakersCourt
Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 949
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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If the Lakers can pull it off WITHOUT giving up #10, then I'm all for it. Maybe expiring contracts, both second round picks, if they did that, they would have 3 Lottery Picks this year!!!!!
That would be worth it. Giving up Caron and #10....NO WAY!!!!!
Caron, expiring contracts and both seconds.....YES!!!!! |
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High IQ
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 11937
Location: EU Latvia Riga
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| LakersCourt wrote: |
If the Lakers can pull it off WITHOUT giving up #10, then I'm all for it. Maybe expiring contracts, both second round picks, if they did that, they would have 3 Lottery Picks this year!!!!!
That would be worth it. Giving up Caron and #10....NO WAY!!!!!
Caron, expiring contracts and both seconds.....YES!!!!! |
no way both 2nd.... maybe 1 of them, but not both 
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Savage1
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 1397
Location: NY
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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I doubt Charlotte would really want any expiring contracts...it's not like they're over the cap. The only reason that they might need them is that they need to meet the minimum salary for a 2nd year expansion franchise. Not to mention they only have like 4 players under contract for next year, so they will have make some signings that could get them to that minimum.
As far as the 2nd round picks...if we were to do this deal and end up with #'s 5, 13, 17(possibly???) and then the two 2nd rounders...there's no way that those players are all going to make the roster unless we clear out a few more players. |
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