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DALakeshow
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 1898
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 Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:50 am Post subject: 18-6 w/LO @ 4, but what will record be with LO @ 3 now? =) |
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It seems like he has gotten a lot of hate lately,but the record doesn't lie.
5-1 with him back at PF and he's averaging close to 10 rebounds during that stretch.We should be 6-0
I think we are a 55-27 team with him and Bynum up front and a team that can get to the WCF. Our problems over the past 2 years had nothing to do with Lamar playing at the 4. Our problem was our weakness at center and PG. Kwame is a very good low post defender and should be a backup to a quality starting center. We have that now in Bynum and Fisher is a huge upgrade over Smush. Replace Smush with Fisher in 2006 and we would have beaten the Suns in that 1st round and advanced to the WCF and that's with LO at power forward. We would have beaten the Clippers
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KB8SD
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 276
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Another point less thread. |
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DALakeshow
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 1898
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: |
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There is no need for a JO or Gasol
55-27 with this exact team with LO at PF
Bynum will finish the year 13 points 11 rebounds
Lamar will finish 16 points 10 rebunds
Double doubles from our starting C and PF
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Choson1
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Posts: 845
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| i've been saying this all along. lamar is a better PF than a SF. his strengths are rebounding and scoring in the post. he is not a perimeter player and he is not a jump shooter. when we used him to his strengths, we played the best basketball of the post-shaq era when we finished off the 05-06 season with an 11-3 record. |
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Punk-101
Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 8816
Location: San Clemente, CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Anything to decrease his long jumpers and 3's. This year he's shooting:
.356efg% on jumpers (52% of his shots are jumpers)
.660efg% from inside (48% of his shots)
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Last edited by Punk-101 on Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Savory Griddles
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 6637
Location: AV,CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| DALakeshow wrote: |
There is no need for a JO or Gasol
55-27 with this exact team with LO at PF
Bynum will finish the year 13 points 11 rebounds
Lamar will finish 16 points 10 rebunds
Double doubles from our starting C and PF |
Where we still need help is at the sf spot on defense. Starting Ariza sounds crazy now, but it might be a good idea at some point. He could end up being a slashing Bowen instead of a 3 point shooting Bowen. Problem is I still am nervous about Sasha getting minutes behind Ariza. I think we need to add another sg who can give us some minutes when Sasha is acting like a retard. |
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Radner
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 11388
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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The optimism is great for CL but the Lakers WILL not win 57 games or be a top four seed WITHOUT a legitimate second option.
Odom may be a good rebounder but when it comes to clutch impact on the offensive end, he's not reliable. As far as Bynum goes, he does not have enough experience to take over the game.
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Last edited by Radner on Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Laker's Fan
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 249
Location: Santa Barbara
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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Lamar's two best attributes are his rebounding and his ability to push off a rebound. Neither of those are leveraged if he is playing SF. On the opposite end he is best served playing in the post and then pulling his man out if they put a big on him.
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DALakeshow
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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Good point and i agree.
What hurt us last year was our injuries. It wasn't that Lamar was any type of a liability at the 4. He's actually a very good starting PF.
We just have to stay healthy and we are a top 4 seed
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KB24@CL
Clublakers Moderator
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker's Fan wrote: |
| Lamar's two best attributes are his rebounding and his ability to push off a rebound. Neither of those are leveraged if he is playing SF. On the opposite end he is best served playing in the post and then pulling his man out if they put a big on him. |
very good points...absolutely agreed 
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Klewfish
ClubNetsHoops.com Administrator
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| KB8SD wrote: |
| Another point less thread. |
Another pointless post.
It is a perfectly relevant topic, everyone debates about where Odom should play, SF vs. PF, and he made an observation which I didn't even recognize, that the Lakers are 5-1 with Odom at the PF.
I guess the only other observation about this record that could be made is, is it because Odom is at the PF, or Luke is starting?
I know Phil wanted Odom at the SF position but if this is what is working, you gotta roll with it.
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Radner
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 11388
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| DALakeshow wrote: |
Good point and i agree.
What hurt us last year was our injuries. It wasn't that Lamar was any type of a liability at the 4. He's actually a very good starting PF.
We just have to stay healthy and we are a top 4 seed |
The same can be said for Houston, New Orleans, Utah, and Denver. What do we have that separates us from the others?
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Last edited by Radner on Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DALakeshow
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 1898
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Savory Griddles wrote: |
| DALakeshow wrote: |
There is no need for a JO or Gasol
55-27 with this exact team with LO at PF
Bynum will finish the year 13 points 11 rebounds
Lamar will finish 16 points 10 rebunds
Double doubles from our starting C and PF |
Where we still need help is at the sf spot on defense. Starting Ariza sounds crazy now, but it might be a good idea at some point. He could end up being a slashing Bowen instead of a 3 point shooting Bowen. Problem is I still am nervous about Sasha getting minutes behind Ariza. I think we need to add another sg who can give us some minutes when Sasha is acting like a retard. |
Agreed. I like Ariza moving in as a starter eventually to give us a Bowen type defender at the sf position.
If you look at the teams in the West,i dont see where we are a liability up front against any of the elite teams.
Spurs - Kwame or Bynum would guard Duncan and LO can take Robert Horry
Suns - Bynum or Kwame on Amare and LO on Marion
Utah - Probably our toughest matchup. You could let Lamar guard Okur who shoots mostly jumpers and Kwame and Bynum taking turns on Boozer. Kwame does a good job on Boozer
Hornets - I think we match well with Tyson and West. Chris Paul is a much bigger problem.
Warriors - We destroy there frontline
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Radner
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| DALakeshow wrote: |
| Savory Griddles wrote: |
| DALakeshow wrote: |
There is no need for a JO or Gasol
55-27 with this exact team with LO at PF
Bynum will finish the year 13 points 11 rebounds
Lamar will finish 16 points 10 rebunds
Double doubles from our starting C and PF |
Where we still need help is at the sf spot on defense. Starting Ariza sounds crazy now, but it might be a good idea at some point. He could end up being a slashing Bowen instead of a 3 point shooting Bowen. Problem is I still am nervous about Sasha getting minutes behind Ariza. I think we need to add another sg who can give us some minutes when Sasha is acting like a retard. |
Agreed. I like Ariza moving in as a starter eventually to give us a Bowen type defender at the sf position.
If you look at the teams in the West,i dont see where we are a liability up front against any of the elite teams.
Spurs - Kwame or Bynum would guard Duncan and LO can take Robert Horry
Suns - Bynum or Kwame on Amare and LO on Marion
Utah - Probably our toughest matchup. You could let Lamar guard Okur who shoots mostly jumpers and Kwame and Bynum taking turns on Boozer. Kwame does a good job on Boozer
Hornets - I think we match well with Tyson and West. Chris Paul is a much bigger problem.
Warriors - We destroy there frontline |
Easier said than done.
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spitty
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 4136
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Oh hell yah Lakers are the best at killing depleted teams.
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Mac
Joined: 03 May 2007
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Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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I like LO at the 4 spot as well. He isn't the best rebounder, but he does do a good job at getting those tipped loose rebounds to help prevent second shot opportunities. Plus, if the other teams puts their 4 on him, he can most likely take him off the dribble.
I was also wondering if we would eventually start Ariza? I think he's much more of an offensive threat than Luke. Although Luke is a great passer and initiates the offense very well, I think Ariza would also help us get the other team in foul trouble because of his slashing nature. He's also a much better defender than Luke as well. Every time I've seen him out on the floor for us, he's guarded the best opposing player, which also helps Kobe reserve some energy for the offensive end of the floor.
Plus Luke has already shown that he's alright with coming off the bench, and he would help the bench mob keep some compsure in the initiation of our offense. |
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Savory Griddles
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 6637
Location: AV,CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Mac wrote: |
I like LO at the 4 spot as well. He isn't the best rebounder, but he does do a good job at getting those tipped loose rebounds to help prevent second shot opportunities. Plus, if the other teams puts their 4 on him, he can most likely take him off the dribble.
I was also wondering if we would eventually start Ariza? I think he's much more of an offensive threat than Luke. Although Luke is a great passer and initiates the offense very well, I think Ariza would also help us get the other team in foul trouble because of his slashing nature. He's also a much better defender than Luke as well. Every time I've seen him out on the floor for us, he's guarded the best opposing player, which also helps Kobe reserve some energy for the offensive end of the floor.
Plus Luke has already shown that he's alright with coming off the bench, and he would help the bench mob keep some compsure in the initiation of our offense. |
I really like the idea of starting Ariza. The only problem is that leaves Sasha as Kobe's man off the bench. To rely on Sasha is scary. For every game he had like last night, he does just STUPID things 5 games in a row.
Bynum/Turiaf/Mihm
Odom/Radman
Ariza/Walton
Kobe/Sasha/Critt
Fisher/Farmar/Critt
Nice rotation except for Sasha. Here's the thing. I really don't see us making any trades. Kwame is pretty worthless to most teams, even with his expiring deal. |
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thewill
Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 317
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| A healthy Kobe should guard the other team's premier point guard or shooting guard. So, Kobe should guard Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, etc. |
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Savory Griddles
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 6637
Location: AV,CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| thewill wrote: |
| A healthy Kobe should guard the other team's premier point guard or shooting guard. So, Kobe should guard Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, etc. |
Good in theory, but that leaves him with less energy on the offensive end. He is human afterall. He can't carry the type of offensive load he needs to for this team AND guard the other teams best perimeter player. Especially when we have a guy like Ariza who can do it. |
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knm131
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 4581
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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That's why I asked in another thread. Why are people so afraid of putting Lamar at the 4?
He can take opposing 4's off the dribble and Andrew/Kwame are a formidable force to be reckoned with inside.
It's not like Lamar is too small to handle most power forwards.
No one answered my question. Well, one person did. And they said "Because he doesn't rotate". lol. |
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Plot
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Choson1 wrote: |
| i've been saying this all along. lamar is a better PF than a SF. his strengths are rebounding and scoring in the post. he is not a perimeter player and he is not a jump shooter. when we used him to his strengths, we played the best basketball of the post-shaq era when we finished off the 05-06 season with an 11-3 record. |
He was suppose to post up those SF players which was essential for him to be successful in that position. Unfortunately he did not and that was the end of the experiment just like the initiating experiment.... He's still not posting up as much as you think for a PF. He's been taking a lot more jumpers lately but it's the position that doesn't confuse him a lot so I guess that's the only one for Lamar.
Example of last night: Lamar posts up against Mags on a few occasions.
If he had the ego and desire to take advantage of these smaller players consecutively he would be something. Look at Kobe when Mobley was on him. He was fighting and demanding for the ball on that one possession. Fisher couldn't get to him so swung to the other side and got Lamar the score but it shows the different mentality of these two players.
Lakers are also 5-1 when Ariza gets solid playing time.  He didn't get any burn in the Warriors game until the end. Could we have used him to guard Harrington or Davis early on? HELL YES. Phil wanted offense over defense that day when he put Luke in there for long stretches. The Magic fans used to always say put Ariza on KG and we saw how his length can bother AI. |
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Massacre
Clublakers Moderator
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 10580
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Notice how Lamar's producition numbers have also taken a rise in the month of December. If we're winning, I don't see the problem with keeping him there. He's going to create a mismatch for the opposing four most of the time he's out there. He's going to force them out to guard him and he'll easily take them off the dribble and go left 9 out of 10 times. When they realize what he's doing, they'll most likely put their 3 on him, who Lamar can easily dominate inside based on his size. He needs to work in the post more often, not just when he has the size advantage, however.
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halekulani
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| knm131 wrote: |
That's why I asked in another thread. Why are people so afraid of putting Lamar at the 4?
He can take opposing 4's off the dribble and Andrew/Kwame are a formidable force to be reckoned with inside.
It's not like Lamar is too small to handle most power forwards.
No one answered my question. Well, one person did. And they said "Because he doesn't rotate". lol. |
because he doesn't play good defense at the 4.
i've already argued with L4L about putting odom in the post for the triangle so he doesn't facilitate from the wing. that's having him play like a 4, but it doesn't mean ronny isnt on the floor. it's simply having your 3 being the post player in the triangle.
you can post up your 3's on offense, but ultimately he should stay a 3 on defense. we don't need him getting into foul trouble.
in conclusion, in the ideal lineup lineup, odom should not be the 4. simply remove his facilitating responsibilities and setup the triangle as if he were to play it. it doesn't remove the fact that a) ronny is the PF/4 and b) odom is the SF/3
Last edited by halekulani on Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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karacha
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 15731
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| DALakeshow wrote: |
55-27 with this exact team... |
We're getting to WCF. 
Seriously now, we've seen Lamar @ PF before. We know what he can do when playing 4. It's better than this, but it's not spectacular. Lamar will be Lamar. No more, no less. Same thing we've seen before.
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GCMD
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 11124
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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This can't be a serious topic... 
Ignore the fact that LO's production hasn't been significantly increased when compared to last year's numbers.
Ignore the fact that Kobe has been avging over 3 steals a game.
Ignore the fact that Bynum has gone 32-52 from the field over that stretch...
Ignore Farmar off the bench...
Ignore Luke shooting over 50% in all but 1 of our wins?
Ignore the ENTIRE bench and their impact...
It's as simple as LO at PF...
How quickly we forget...
And the record of the teams we beat? (excluding SAS for OBVIOUS reasons)
36-38
Yep...the only reason we won those games was Lamar was at PF...
The guy is playing better? Yes...
Leading us to a 5-1 record? Not even close.
And LO is NOT a PF. That just shows that we don't have a reliable PF. And if your defensive assignment determines your position, LO has played the 3 for most of those games...
How can you guys take one thing and claim that it is the reason for our success? Oversimplify much?
When we had a similar stretch in NOV, it was because LO was playing SF???
And this is a serious discussion?
This can not be happening...
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halekulani
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 5829
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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because they actually believe odom is a legit defender at the 4  |
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karacha
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 15731
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Guys... Odom played PF for us before. This topic is nothing new. Just look for Lamar's production before this year - this is exactly what you're going to get from him this year @ PF.
Why are we even discussing this? 
People who are not happy with Lamar's production, will not be happy with it whether he plays PF or SF.
We're discussing possible upgrades here - and Lamar Odom is not exactly an upgrade over... Lamar Odom!
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GCMD
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 11124
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| knm131 wrote: |
That's why I asked in another thread. Why are people so afraid of putting Lamar at the 4?
He can take opposing 4's off the dribble and Andrew/Kwame are a formidable force to be reckoned with inside.
It's not like Lamar is too small to handle most power forwards.
No one answered my question. Well, one person did. And they said "Because he doesn't rotate". lol. |
You must not have watched the past 3 years.
LO is NOT a good post defender...who takes the big defensive assignments in the post?
Kwame or Bynum.
If you ignore the defensive end of the floor, you can't expect this team to fare any better than DEN...
And LO at PF means the same thing as LO at SF...
He's going to stand on the perimeter and pass the ball around.
He's going to leave his man on defense too early or too late.
He's not going to go to the post because he almost NEVER gets good post position.
LO as PF is a disaster waiting to happen.
And did I mention his INJURY history at PF???
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alex58
Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 344
Location: LA, CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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I agree, he is alot better in the 4 , but now ,the question is who will be our 2nd scorer , he is not and will never be , then we have to find a solid defender on the 3 position , that he can score and defend!!!!
the answer is ARTEST
fisher,kobe,artest,odom,bynum
that is the answer inMHO.
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GCMD
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 11124
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| karacha wrote: |
Guys... Odom played PF for us before. This topic is nothing new. Just look for Lamar's production before this year - this is exactly what you're going to get from him this year @ PF.
Why are we even discussing this?
People who are not happy with Lamar's production, will not be happy with it whether he plays PF or SF.
We're discussing possible upgrades here - and Lamar Odom is not exactly an upgrade over... Lamar Odom! |
Exactly.
We found out early this season that Turiaf still isn't ready for consistent minutes and DEFINITELY not ready to consistently start at PF.
Only other option we had was LO. Vlad is a 3 and he was brought in to play 3. People keep saying PF but that is just not true.
And the 55-27 thing? 
Too much   and 
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