| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
L4L
Clublakers Moderator
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 9153
Location: Trade Rumors Forum
|
 Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject: L4L's Laker Lowdown: KOBE 4 MVP (4/17) |
 |
|
Credit to Real Deal for turning me onto the Nash v Stockton comparison. Credit to Slimjim for the MVP winner list with team wins next to it. Credit to borri for the statistic on Paul and where he ranks in defending the other elite PGs.
L4L's Laker Lowdown, 4/17
KOBE 4 MVP
Kobe Bean Bryant is the MVP of NBA basketball. The dust has settled; the smoke has cleared. The Lakers sit atop the Western Conference. Based on the historical precedents set by past MVP selections, due to his outstanding statistical achievements, impact on the game, durability, winning, and leadership ability, no player other than 24 can legitimately hold up that trophy and deserve it.
First of all, LeBron can be immediately systematically eliminated. His team won 45 games. Because of that, he is automatically out of the running.
| Quote: |
2006/07 Dirk Nowitzki 67 wins
2005/06 Steve Nash 54 wins
2004/05 Steve Nash 62 wins
2003/04 Kevin Garnett 58 wins
2002/03 Tim Duncan 60 wins
2001/02 Tim Duncan 58 wins
2000/01 Allen Iverson phi 56 wins
1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal 67 wins
1998/99 Karl Malone 61 wins
1997/98 Michael Jordan 62 wins
1996/97 Karl Malone 64 wins
1995/96 Michael Jordan 72 wins
1994/95 David Robinson 62 wins
1993/94 Hakeem Olajuwon 58 wins
1992/93 Charles Barkley 62 wins
1991/92 Michael Jordan 67 wins
1990/91 Michael Jordan 61 wins
1989/90 Magic Johnson 63 wins
1988/89 Magic Johnson 57 wins
1987/88 Michael Jordan 50 wins
1986/87 Magic Johnson 65 wins
1985/86 Larry Bird 67 wins
1984/85 Larry Bird 63 wins
|
As you can see, no player on this list of MVP award winners, other than Michael Jordan, ever won an MVP with less than 54 wins. MJ won the MVP in ’87-’88 because he was the best offensive player while simultaneously being the DPOY (Defensive Player of the Year). James’ defense is NOWHERE close to that level. He has yet to even be elected to a single All-Defensive team. More importantly, there simply isn’t a player in the history of this award who has won less than 50 games. James won 45. He can’t win the award based on that fact alone.
Giving James the MVP, and it would be a gift, for winning 45 games equates to the heights of hypocrisy. When Bryant scored 81 points, 62 in 3 quarters, put up 35/5/5 in a superior western conference with inferior teammates, and, all the same, won 45 games, he finished no higher than 4th in the voting. How, then, can James be first? The answer: He can’t.
There is no need for the discussion to go past this point. There is no need to discuss whether James is better than Bryant or not. There is no need to discuss stats. There is no need to discuss importance to the team. James can’t win.
Don’t take it from me, take it from James:
| Quote: |
“(if LBJ won the MVP) I’d give it to Kobe Bryant,” James said before last night’s game.” “What he has done this whole year, carrying that team to the No. 1 team in the West right now and playing probably the best basketball all-around . . . I’ve been quoted as saying Kobe has been the best player in our league for the last five years,” James said. “He hasn’t been named MVP, and I don’t know why. This is his year.”
|
http://www.lakerscore.com/lakers-news/lebron-james-says-hell-give-kobe-mvp-if-he-wins/
Don’t take it from James either, take it from the whole league:
“well the NBA is in great hands but if I had to pick the single greatest player on the planet, I take Kobe Bryant without hesitation.” - Michael Jordan
http://boardsus.playstation.com/rss/message?board.id=sports&message.id=231743
“Kobe is the best player and best scorer in the league.” - Lebron James
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlmcdArK_3Q
“Nobody can guard Kobe one-on-one. Nobody.”
—Former Lakers coach Del Harris
http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Bryant/Bryant_theysay.html
“He rates right there with Jordan.”- Pat Riley on Kobe being the only player in Jordan’s class.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0565oawy9Ak
“Kobe is the most talented in the game on both ends of the floor” - Gregg Popovich
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liIYL7YcePI
“Kobe best in the game right now” - Amare Stoudemire
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_hJuAyQkpI
“Kobe is still the best in the game” - Phil Jackson
“…the kid can play, you can’t take that away from him. I’m chasing him. He has three rings, I haven’t been out of the first round.” - T-mac
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/02/11/nba/
“Kobe Bryant is probably the best allaround player we have today” - Kiki Vandehaeghue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k6oTj8WIV4
“for the best player in the league to say that about me..” - Gilbert Arenas
http://www.gilbertology.net/2006/12/20/gilbert-arenas-on-kobe-bryants-comments/
“Everyone knows Kobe is the best in the game right now” - Mike D’Antoni
“Kobe is the best in the game” - Stephon Marbury
“Kobe will go down as the GOAT” - Mark Jackson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuD_cOBkTsM
“That should put all the questions to rest who’s the most talented and who’s the, you know, best offensive player in the league.” - Ben Gordon
“We’re witnessing greatness right now. We need to understand that. (asked: “Is he the best of the best?”) Yeah, definetly.” - Tyson Chandler
“It’s amazing. Beyond amazing. He’s on another level from any other player at this point.” - Mark Cuban
“If USA would’ve had Kobe on their team, they would’ve won the gold” - Dirk Nowitzki
http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/DimeMagazine/2006/09/07/Squad_Up
“It’s not just a buzz about Kobe, it’s a holler. That guy is incredible. That’s why he’s the best player in the league.” - Keyon Dooling
“Players are jealous of greatness. Kobe is a unique talent and a unique person.” - Jerry West
“Kobe is the best player in the league” - Charles Barkley
“The greatest players in the future will be MJ, Kobe, and Lebron” - Dick Vitale, whos hates HS players that jump
“To be honest, Kobe is a better shooter than MJ” - Nuggets commentator on 24 year kobe
“Kobe is the best player in the game” - Stu lantz and Joel myers
http://jonesonthenba.blogspot.com/2006/09/stu-lantz-if-theres-any-question-in.html
“No, the best player in the game is Kobe Bryant” - Bill Walton
“the best clutch shooter into today’s game…kobe jellybean bryant” -T-Mac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQY7NpbiFwk
There is a prevailing notion in the media and among fans that the MVP goes to the best player on the best team. Any way you look at it that simply isn’t true. In the last four years alone, this hasn’t been the case twice.
| Quote: |
2007 - Dirk (best team in the NBA, best player on that team)
2006 - Nash (fourth best team in the NBA, didn't win the conference)
2005 - Nash (best team in the NBA, best player on that team)
2004 - KG (second best team in the NBA, won conference)
|
Based on this data, there is no way you can reasonably conclude that the award simply goes to the best player on the best team. It doesn’t. Steve Nash disproves this theory.
Because of the above conclusion, KG does not automatically win the MVP. Other factors must be considered such as a player’s statistical achievements, games played, and supporting cast among other important categories.
As far as statistics go, the only player in the last 25 years to win the MVP while putting up less than 20 points was Steve Nash. Nash, also, just so happens to be the most controversial and, in my opinion, most undeserving candidate to ever win the award. While Nash was putting up 19/12, Amare scored and boarded for 26/9. Malone was able to amass 27/10 with Stockton at the helm while Stockton put up 17/15 as one of the best PG defenders in the league. Malone was given the most of credit and won the MVPs. With Nash and Amare, people claim that Nash, who isn’t even as good as Stockton, “made Amare into what he is.” Pundits give Nash the credit. Even with that said, Nash only missed nine games combined in his two MVP seasons while also dishing out 11.5 assists.
KG’s scoring and rebounding numbers are at 18/9 this year and he has missed eleven games in only one season. Even with those eleven missed games, his team still etched out 60+ in the win column. In fact, this isn’t a surprise at all. Ray Allen and Paul Pierce have BOTH led their teams to the Eastern Conference Finals in the past and BOTH have been franchise players for YEARS. Both have taken their teams to the playoffs without KG, or anyone like him, and both are recognized as All-Star talents. Kobe did not have a single teammate in the All-Star game this year.
Shaq and Kobe were penalized in the MVP voting for playing together. They won one MVP among them despite being unarguably the best two players in the game at the time. Why? Because, in order to be MVP, you simply cannot have a dominant supporting cast. If you do, you don’t win. It’s that simple. Shaq had the greatest second option in the history of basketball, the team facilitator who led the Lakers in assists for EVERY season of the three-peat, and who was constantly elected to All-NBA defensive teams. When you combine the facts that KG had Allen and Pierce, he missed 11 games, and his numbers would be the worst ever for an MVP candidate, you have no other choice but to realize that KG simply cannot finish first in the MVP voting based on the way the past MVPs have been chosen.
Now, this leaves us with Kobe’s only real MVP competition, Chris Paul. Paul meets the entire MVP criterion: statistical excellence, durability, leadership, winningness, and he possesses a poster-boy face with a great storyline to his season. For one moment, as an aside, yes, the last thing I listed is legitimate criteria. The voters gave Nash his first MVP because the Suns lost three starters in Amare, Q-Rich, and Joe Johnson. They claimed his performance without them, despite not being anywhere close to first in the other MVP categories, defined his MVP worthiness. In fact, you could argue this is THE MOST IMPORTANT MVP factor. In my opinion, that is sad and unfortunate, but once you establish criteria, you must be consistent to be fair.
Let’s start off with statistical excellence. Both of these guys have been incredible in this category. You can literally flip a coin.
Chris Paul: 21ppg, 11apg, 4rpg, and nearly 3 steals on 49% shooting.
Kobe Bryant: 28ppg, 6rpg, 5.5apg nearly 2 steals on 46% shooting.
Without a shadow of a doubt, these two were the best, statistically, at their positions.
Among true SGs, Bryant ranks first in: points, rebounds, steals, assists, and is second in blocks. Among true PGs, Paul is 1st in assists, 4th in rebounds, 1st in steals, and 2nd in points. Ultimately, box score stats don’t tell you enough. In this case, whether you pick Paul’s or Bryant’s achievements in this arena, the difference is basically negligible; they are about equal.
However, there are a few major statistical and on-court differences between these two and they come down to clutch play, defense, and the ability to elevate your game against quality opponents.
When the score is within 5 in the last 5 minutes of a game:
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM
(All Stats in Per 48 minutes form)
Kobe: 52ppg, 8rpg, 6apg on 45% shooting
CP3: 39ppg, 6rpg, 10.5apg on 48% shooting
When the score is within 3 in the last 3 minutes of a game:
http://www.82games.com/SCSORT11.HTM
Kobe: 64ppg, 12rpg, 5apg on 47% shooting
Paul: 54ppg, 8.5rpg, 11apg on 42% shooting
Kobe’s edge in this category is quite evident. In the triangle offense, no player has ever average more than 7-8apg because of “hockey assists”. That is, passes that lead to assists(that includes ALL of Phil’s teams). Watching the Lakers for all 82 games, I can assure you Kobe accumulated a great deal of these “hockey assists” and while I’m sure Paul does as well, it probably isn’t as many as Kobe because the triangle, by design, is a two pass-away offense. For those of you who are not basketball inclined, that means you need to make two passes to hit the open shooter or cutter at the correct angle. We can also see that while both players get progressively better down the stretch, Kobe clearly makes the greater jump from the 5 minute mark to the 3 minute mark. Kobe is a man possessed in the clutch. Paul’s huge dip in FG% indicates he is trying his best to take over, but simply isn’t at the level where he can maintain his efficiency, or even improve it like Kobe, and still exert his will offensively. In any case, no one doubts Kobe down the stretch. The same cannot be said of Paul.
Further, and perhaps more importantly, Chris Paul is a downright bad defender on the ball. Off the ball, he’s excellent and will get you an amazing amount of steals as many little guys seem to do. That said, his team gives up SIX less points per 100 possessions (a little more than the average amount in an NBA ball game) when Paul sits down. This off-sets two thirds of his offensive impact as the team puts up 15.4 less points per 100 possessions when he’s sitting (info here: http://www.82games.com/0708/07NOH1D.HTM). That is an incredible difference. In fact, we saw this problem manifest itself just last night when Jason Kidd hit him for a triple double and Jason Terry chipped in with 30 points of his own. Consider the following statistics: among the seven other Western playoff teams, in terms of FG% allowed, the Hornets gave up the 2nd worst FG% to Nash, the 3rd worst to Tony Parker, and the The bottom line here is this: Kobe is recognized as the best 2 guard defender in the NBA; on the other hand, Chris Paul just may be apart of the lower echelons of man defense at the PG position.
Against good teams, that is Boston, Detroit, L.A., Dallas, San Antonio, Houston, New Orleans, Phoenix, and Orlando, Chris Paul is averaging almost exactly the same numbers: 22ppg, 11apg, 4rpg on a reduced efficiency of 46% shooting. Bryant, on the other hand, steps up his numbers to 30ppg, 7rpg, 5apg on 47% shooting. Bryant also shoots an impressive 6% higher on his threes in these games to go along with his improved FG%. Statistically, that means his effective increase in efficiency is much more than just one percent when you account for the fact that threes are worth an additional point. If you go 2/6 on threes, you get six points. If you go 3/6 on 2s, you get 6 points. While you shot 33% in one case and 50% in the other, you are equally efficient in your point out-put. Hence, Kobe is MUCH more efficient in the big games. Here we can see, yet again, that Bryant brings unmeasured, competitive intangibles to the table that outweigh those which are brought by Paul.
When both players are putting up fantastic offensive numbers in the regular season and during the first three quarters, how can you choose the player who is less clutch, who doesn’t step his game up against the elite opponents, and is a much worse defender as the guy you think is most valuable to a team down the stretch of a game and on into the playoffs?
As we’ve seen with past MVP candidates, winning is a largely important piece of criteria. If all else is equal, winning can separate two candidates. In this case, Kobe, and his Lakers, won the head to head duel that gave his team the best record in the West; he won the duel that gave his Lakers a better record than the Hornets and the grand prize of 1st place in the toughest Western Conference in the history of basketball. Combined with the intangible court impacts discussed above, this makes it two crystal clear advantages for Kobe in two extremely important MVP categories.
I would also like to dispel the myth that Chris Paul has had less to work with this season than has Kobe Bryant. KB24 has only had Gasol and Bynum for a combined 62 games this season and never once at the same time. Meanwhile, Chris Paul has had David West for SEVENTY-SIX games. That alone, is more than the entire body of games played by Bynum and Gasol. One thing about David West, Chris Paul DOES NOT make him who he is. West has a sweet face-up game and jumper and that is the reason for his NBA success. Only 57% of his FGs are assisted. 51% of Duncan’s FGs are assisted. Has Parker made Duncan now as well? How about Dwight Howard? 68% of his scores are assisted. Can he not play without Jameer Nelson? Through and through, this is just argument is just a silly attempt at trying to downplay David West to prop CP3 up.
Kwame Brown was the starting Lakers center for 14 games. How bad is Kwame? This team: Fisher-Bryant-Radmanovic-Odom-Brown was the SIXTH WORST in the NBA in terms of +/- on the scoreboard (points scored minus points given up). What do you get when all you do is replace Kwame with Gasol? Well, you get the SECOND BEST line-up in the NBA in terms of +/- on the scoreboard. Kwame played in 23 games this year.
In addition, the Lakers also rolled out Ronny Turiaf in the starting line-up 21 times. As much as I love Ronny’s heart, he doesn’t hold a candle to Chandler or West and everyone who knows anything about the NBA would agree with that statement. If you’re keeping tally, 37 games were started by Turiaf and Brown.
Prior to the All-Star break and the Gasol acquisition, Odom was averaging 13/10 on 48% shooting. Despite his terrible play (for Lamar’s standards), Kobe had the Lakers in first place despite only 25 Bynum starts. Take your pick: 129 games with Odom, Gasol or Bynum in the line-up or 155 with both Chandler and West. All in all, either way, there is no way this is a significant advantage for Paul. In my opinion, it is, in fact, a slight advantage for Kobe.
Finally, and perhaps most importantly, we have to compare the storylines for both players. New Orleans missed the playoffs by one game last year. However, this SHOULDN’T be a surprise for people who have, at minimum, a half-baked memory. Paul missed 18 games last year, Peja missed 69 games last year, David West missed 30 games last year, and Chandler missed 9 games. What in the world did people expect to happen this year when they replaced Rasual Butler and Devin Brown with a solid veteran like Mo Peterson? What did everyone expect to happen when the Hornets had those same guys miss a combined total SIXTEEN games this year? For heavens sake, their starters missed 126 games last year. This year, those same guys missed 110 less games. They improved in the win column by 14. Why are people surprised? Let’s not pretend like this team magically transformed. They didn’t. They were damn good last year too. If it wasn’t for the injuries, they’d have been right up there with the rest of the elite Western teams.
The story is completely different in Los Angeles. In fact, it was so bad for the Lakers after three straight years of early season endings, that their star player demanded a trade. For months, Lakers fans had no idea whether or not Bryant would be a Laker for the upcoming season. Feverishly, the FO worked to try and trade for guys like Jermaine O’Neal and Kevin Garnett. None of it worked. The Lakers had the EXACT SAME first round exit team with the exception of newly signed Derek Fisher at PG. Is Fisher an upgrade over Smush? Yes, anyone is. Is he a monumental addition? Are you kidding? He was a bench player in the three-peat era for much of the time. Yet with exactly the same team, who didn’t have anywhere close to type of key injuries that the Hornets had the year prior, the Lakers rose to FIRST in the West BEFORE they got Gasol. Let’s not forget that. The Lakers were FIRST before Gasol and dropped some only after Bynum was hurt. In essence, through almost only internal improvement alone, the Lakers transformed their team. Bynum became a top five center, Farmar got a jump shot, Sasha improved his 3 point shooting by an immense degree, Vladimir Radmanovic got off the bench, and Ronny Turiaf added a 15 footer to his arsenal. Tex Winters, Phil Jackson, and Kareem have all been quoted as saying Kobe has been a more effective leader this season. Sasha and Bynum have shared with the media that Kobe taught each scoring and post techniques respectively. Javaris Crittenton (before he was traded) called Kobe a brother figure. Assistant coaches have commented on how Kobe has taken a different, more friendly approach to being a teammate. Insiders claim this is the tightest group of players Kobe has ever been a part of. Essentially, Kobe and the Lakers created an environment of success despite three years of failure and a trade demand staring them in the face. In my mind, this is the story of the year. Kobe finally matured as not only a player, but as a person. He matched his basketball effectiveness with equally skilled leadership. The results: A first place finish in the West, the roller coaster ride of adversity has been completely overcome, and a group of Lakers was created that not only believe they can beat anyone, but EXPECT to beat everyone.
Paul, James, and KG have had great seasons; I don’t mean to detract from their impressive accomplishments. James has showed everyone that there is no longer a doubt he will own this league in the years that follow Bryant’s decline. KG ignited the pride of an entire city and a world-wide fan base by sparking the biggest turnaround in NBA history. Chris Paul delivered epic performance after epic performance on his way to having a splendid, MVP caliber season. Maybe, just maybe, Paul saved the Hornets in New Orleans. However, when it is all said and done, when all the battles have been fought, only one man will receive the trophy. Only one man can deserve it the most. Only one man has the best combination of dominance, statistical achievement, winning, and respect that defines true basketball value. That man is your 2007-2008 NBA MVP. That man is Kobe Bryant.
_________________
All-NBA Challenge Roster:
PG: Steve Nash, Stephon Marbury, Delonte West
SG: Ray Allen, Francisco Garcia, DeShawn Stevenson
SF: Paul Pierce, Shane Battier, Ruben Patterson
PF: Kevin Garnett, Kurt Thomas, Andray Blatche
C: Kendrick Perkins, Joel Przybilla, Rasho Nesterovic |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
revgen
HDTV/Multimedia Guru
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 8917
Location: Southern California
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
goldenboy
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 223
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| revgen wrote: |
Props to you for a great article! 
Props to me for reading it all!  |
_________________
"We may have the best offense in the league, but if we don't play defense, it's USELESS."
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
2Pacalypse
Random Thread King
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 5290
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
Good read and props for blogging.
_________________
www.thelakersnation.com/forums
The BEST Lakers Site on the Net. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Daloyalfan18
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 1992
Location: South Carolina
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wow, one of the best pieces I've read. You nailed the whole MVP process and why Kobe is the BEST candidate!
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
engin
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Posts: 65
Location: Turkey
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
This is a well-crafted and detailed analysis of "Who should be the MVP?". Congratualtions for all your hard work! However, i disagree with the following sentence:
"Shaq and Kobe were penalized in the MVP voting for playing together."
The MVP awards during the 1999-2004 era went to O'Neal, Iverson, Duncan, Duncan and Garnett. The first two were no brainers. The third one was a little controversial since many thought that Kidd's award was stolen but this had nothing to do with Shaq & Kobe.
In the 2002-2003 season Kobe played the best all-around season so far by then but the Lakers record was just good (50-32), not very good. In addition, Spurs and Mavericks finished with both 60 wins, and with Spurs topping the Western Conference, Duncan's stats were near perfection. So we can't say that it was Kobe's right to get the award that year.
A season later, Garnett showed an excellent performance (like the previous season) but this time he led the Wolves to the first spot of the West. Hence, it was also a well-deserved trophy.
Anyways, these are my two cents. Keep up blogging!
_________________
Verba volant, scripta manent. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
L4L
Clublakers Moderator
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 9153
Location: Trade Rumors Forum
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thank you for the encouraging words and taking the time to read my blog guys.
In 2000-2001, the Lakers and the Sixers won the exact same amount of games. Shaq was a better player than Iverson. Shaq dominated him statistically when he put up 29/13/3(blocks) on 57% shooting. By contrast, Iverson was averaging 27/3/4(assists) on 42%. Why, then, did Iverson win? He had a much better storyline and a far inferior supporting cast. Shaq was penalized for playing with Kobe Bryant.
In 2001-2002, the Lakers and Spurs had an identical amount of wins at 58. Duncan's numbers were excellent at 26ppg, 13rpg, 3.5apg, 2.5bpg all while doing this on 51% shooting. However, they still were not as dominant as Shaq's who was posting 27ppg, 11rpg, 3apg, 2bpg all the while shooting 58%. Why, then, did Duncan win? In this case, he was more durable as he played 15 more games, but, again, we see that Duncan had no other player who was averaging more than 12ppg. The supporting cast factor when combined with durability, made Duncan the favorite. In my opinion, Shaq was penalized, again, for playing with Kobe.
_________________
All-NBA Challenge Roster:
PG: Steve Nash, Stephon Marbury, Delonte West
SG: Ray Allen, Francisco Garcia, DeShawn Stevenson
SF: Paul Pierce, Shane Battier, Ruben Patterson
PF: Kevin Garnett, Kurt Thomas, Andray Blatche
C: Kendrick Perkins, Joel Przybilla, Rasho Nesterovic |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DARealist
Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 3
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| can you get anymore bias? Get off your knees and look at the rest of the league |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
L4L
Clublakers Moderator
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 9153
Location: Trade Rumors Forum
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Can you provide an argument?
No?
_________________
All-NBA Challenge Roster:
PG: Steve Nash, Stephon Marbury, Delonte West
SG: Ray Allen, Francisco Garcia, DeShawn Stevenson
SF: Paul Pierce, Shane Battier, Ruben Patterson
PF: Kevin Garnett, Kurt Thomas, Andray Blatche
C: Kendrick Perkins, Joel Przybilla, Rasho Nesterovic |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
basketboy
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 219
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| DARealist wrote: |
| can you get anymore bias? Get off your knees and look at the rest of the league |
go read all the quotes from around the nba - he did look at the rest of the league, and the rest of the league pointed to kobe.
just listen to your idol lebron.. even he says kobe.
talk about getting off your knees.. youre the one coming to a laker fan site, and for what? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
two0one7
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 8528
Location: Laker Land
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
L4L, not sure if you've seen this but this further helps your argument.
http://www.82games.com/COM1S11.HTM
Posted by RJ in LD.
Edit: I finally got the chance to read the whole thing. As usual, great stuff. You combined all the arguments, stats, whatever into 1 cohesive and extremely convincing piece.
_________________
Last edited by two0one7 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:32 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
L4L
Clublakers Moderator
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 9153
Location: Trade Rumors Forum
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
^^Thanks bro. Yep, in fact, I used those very statistics in my post to show that Kobe elevates his game against elite opponents and Paul does not.
_________________
All-NBA Challenge Roster:
PG: Steve Nash, Stephon Marbury, Delonte West
SG: Ray Allen, Francisco Garcia, DeShawn Stevenson
SF: Paul Pierce, Shane Battier, Ruben Patterson
PF: Kevin Garnett, Kurt Thomas, Andray Blatche
C: Kendrick Perkins, Joel Przybilla, Rasho Nesterovic |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Punk-101
Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 8798
Location: San Clemente, CA
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Wonderful read L4L
If 45 wins was a somewhat standard amt of wins based on past MVP voting, how strong would the case be for Lebron vs kobe?
_________________
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
-Galileo Galilei |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
L4L
Clublakers Moderator
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 9153
Location: Trade Rumors Forum
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks Punk.
I believe his case would be very, very strong because he would win most of the statistical categories including box score statistics, plus-minus numbers, and clutch play. Bryant still holds an edge in floor impact because of defense, basketball ability, and his excellence against the good teams.
However, I'm not sure it is good enough to make up for the fact that James has a worse supporting cast, a better political career, and a more marketable image.
The one thing I think would still possibly pull the award to Kobe's favor is the season story lines. There was a major trade involved for James, they didn't band together and become better. There were major injuries. They took their toll; the Cavaliers didn't overcome them. After going to the Finals, they finished with a 4th seed despite not losing any key pieces.
All in all, the argument would be very, very strong and it would be a three-way discussion between James, Bryant, and Paul. James might actually canabalize most of Paul's support though I imagine quite a bit would remain because of the seemingly impressive turnaround for the 2007-2008 Hornets.
I believe James would win. The voters would love the fact he carried his team to the Finals and "despite the injuries" they still finished with an MVP caliber record. They would then point to his box-score statistics and claim that he was the decisively playing the best basketball this year(which may be true). They'd point to the fact that his team provided very little support. When you wrap it all up into one, I think they'd pick James.
_________________
All-NBA Challenge Roster:
PG: Steve Nash, Stephon Marbury, Delonte West
SG: Ray Allen, Francisco Garcia, DeShawn Stevenson
SF: Paul Pierce, Shane Battier, Ruben Patterson
PF: Kevin Garnett, Kurt Thomas, Andray Blatche
C: Kendrick Perkins, Joel Przybilla, Rasho Nesterovic |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Punk-101
Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 8798
Location: San Clemente, CA
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I can't disagree. What about who you'd pick though?
_________________
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
-Galileo Galilei |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
L4L
Clublakers Moderator
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 9153
Location: Trade Rumors Forum
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Putting me on the spot there Punk. 
Bryant. I can't accept an MVP with 45 wins even if it was the accepted standard. However, even if I did, the voters set the precedent with Nash. So sorry LBJ, but you can't win because of that. When you don't have a good story to your season, it severely damages your case. The maturation of Kobe's approach to being a teammate has been one of the best stories of the year when it comes with the context of a Lakers' 1st place finish in the West. Because these "emotional, feel good" factors have been voted into the criteria by Nash supporters, I would follow the precedent and give the award to Bryant.
If I completely had my way, the award would go to the player who was the best that season. In my opinion, that is Bryant. He played all 82 games, he had comparable statistical numbers, he plays better defense, and he elevated his game, instead of dropping off to a degree, against the elite opponents. In my mind, that makes him the true MVP as well the political, "real" MVP.
_________________
All-NBA Challenge Roster:
PG: Steve Nash, Stephon Marbury, Delonte West
SG: Ray Allen, Francisco Garcia, DeShawn Stevenson
SF: Paul Pierce, Shane Battier, Ruben Patterson
PF: Kevin Garnett, Kurt Thomas, Andray Blatche
C: Kendrick Perkins, Joel Przybilla, Rasho Nesterovic |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Punk-101
Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 8798
Location: San Clemente, CA
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Nice. Couldnt agree more
_________________
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
-Galileo Galilei |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mapabu1
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 2565
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Great read L4L |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HuStLinPhenom
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Posts: 189
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
goatis24
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 381
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Great read L4L...
Answer me this hypothetical though: Kobe Bryant's 05-06 45 win season vs. Lebron James' 07-08 45 win season. If it was a two man race between these two based on those respective seasons, who then gets the MVP? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
L4L
Clublakers Moderator
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 9153
Location: Trade Rumors Forum
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Personally, I think Bryant would win to be quite honest. All things being equal, James has a superior reputation among the pundits and finished higher within his respective conference. Neither player won an inordinate amount of games. However that said, if I had a vote, Bryant would win the vote for capturing the hearts and minds of the NBA faithful by scoring 62 in 3 quarters and rewriting history with his 81 point game. That storyline alone easily vaults his '05-'06 season ahead of James' in the MVP balloting. When you combine the value of the memorable moments created by Bryant, the superior durability, and Bryant's more impressive statistical accomplishments, I think you're looking at a better "MVP" resume.
_________________
All-NBA Challenge Roster:
PG: Steve Nash, Stephon Marbury, Delonte West
SG: Ray Allen, Francisco Garcia, DeShawn Stevenson
SF: Paul Pierce, Shane Battier, Ruben Patterson
PF: Kevin Garnett, Kurt Thomas, Andray Blatche
C: Kendrick Perkins, Joel Przybilla, Rasho Nesterovic |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
goatis24
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 381
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| L4L wrote: |
| Personally, I think Bryant would win to be quite honest. All things being equal, James has a superior reputation among the pundits and finished higher within his respective conference. Neither player won an inordinate amount of games. However that said, if I had a vote, Bryant would win the vote for capturing the hearts and minds of the NBA faithful by scoring 62 in 3 quarters and rewriting history with his 81 point game. That storyline alone easily vaults his '05-'06 season ahead of James' in the MVP balloting. When you combine the value of the memorable moments created by Bryant, the superior durability, and Bryant's more impressive statistical accomplishments, I think you're looking at a better "MVP" resume. |
Well said, thanks for the input |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
L4L
Clublakers Moderator
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 9153
Location: Trade Rumors Forum
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
No problemo.
Thanks to those who have responded and thanks to all who have taken the time to read this extraordinarily long article.
_________________
All-NBA Challenge Roster:
PG: Steve Nash, Stephon Marbury, Delonte West
SG: Ray Allen, Francisco Garcia, DeShawn Stevenson
SF: Paul Pierce, Shane Battier, Ruben Patterson
PF: Kevin Garnett, Kurt Thomas, Andray Blatche
C: Kendrick Perkins, Joel Przybilla, Rasho Nesterovic |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Andrew Evenstar
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 4645
Location: Ventura, California
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't know why I didn't before (Just haven't read a lot of your posts that I can remember), but I now respect you and your knowledge here at CL. Awesome BLOG.
_________________
[The Will To Act] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kray28
Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 5031
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Good stuff L4L....well argued and effectively backed up by the numbers. Delivers a sound logical beatdown to any of the media naysayers who either ignore or misuse the numbers.
_________________
Basketball isn't part of life, it is life.
- Kobe Bryant |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The LeBrons
Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 3239
Location: ~~~~Los Angeles~~~~
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Unbelievable stuff.
_________________
“That was a trip. It felt great, though. I don’t got to worry about nobody poisoning my burger now. I can eat in peace.”
- Kobe, the NBA MVP |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KB24@CL
Clublakers Moderator
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 40614
Location: always in the near...
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Punk-101 wrote: |
Wonderful read L4L
|
_________________
"It is not how big you are, it is how big you play"
"Basketball doesn't build character. It reveals it"
"Be strong in body, clean in mind, lofty in ideals" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BDG
ClubLakers.com Administrator
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Posts: 34991
Location: Los Angeles
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Nice read L4L ... this should be Kobe's year to (finally) get it.
_________________
Slava laughed at the suggestion his skills might be affected by the down time. "Are you kidding?" he said. "Basketball is like ball. It's all a circle."
BEST VIDEO EVER ... AND AND THE SECOND BEST. |
|
|
Basketball 
Football 
Baseball
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
