President of the United States of America 09

BB · Joined: 07 Apr 2008 Posts: 785 Location: Bucharest, Romania

Satan, do you believe in communism? Because that's what you're going to that.

In a country like yours, I'd work a normal job and just move some papers there and here. If I get fired, so be it. You'd have social plans for me. lol. Why bother to work as hard as I can when it's not rewarding?

Satan · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject:

Barnstable · Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 5067 Location: Tacoma, WA

BB · Joined: 07 Apr 2008 Posts: 785 Location: Bucharest, Romania

Hard work shouldn't be rewarded. Risks and quality of work should be rewarded. I could care the less how hard is for someone to do what I do in 2 hours, in 2 weeks.

And most people are irresponsible and stupid. Why would you reward those at the expense of the others?

And I wouldn't want to be part of ones society where my work is hindered because of the dumb people. I'd just gather enough money with others and buy my own country where I can do whatever. If you want something unfair, look at how overpaid Americans are compared to Chinese, Mexicans and whoever does the same work. Isn't this the biggest unfair factor? I mean, they even do the same thing, yet they make less. It's not the difference in the field as employee or entrepeneur.

It's not a businesses job to take care of what you'll do when you won't work for them anymore. If you'd put in an account those x% you pay to the gov, you'd have money when you'd want to stop working, without all the dumb regulations that govs have for their retirement funds.

You didn't answer to me if you support communist ideas. :P And some other stuff.

Satan · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject:

BB · Joined: 07 Apr 2008 Posts: 785 Location: Bucharest, Romania

Satan, your ideas work only if people would be the same. Guess what? People aren't the same. Even if you'd take all the money away now, in 2-3 generations we'd be back, because most people are just pathetic sheep. Nobody in this world has the same amount of determination, looks, brains, ambition as others. If you put all that too good work in a competitive ambient(10 times the amount for someone with an IQ of 160 over some guy who just cleans the floors with an IQ of 80 and with the same differences in the other categories is just laughable).

Marx also said that a theory is good only when it can be successfully applied in practice(in case you read his books you know this)... Guess what, communism can't be applied in practice because of the differences and things I stated before. In a perfect society in which all the scrubs would be removed, yes, it could be applied. Otherwise, it can't.

Satan · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject:

Satan · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:11 pm Post subject:

BB · Joined: 07 Apr 2008 Posts: 785 Location: Bucharest, Romania

Satan, I was taking about things that can be applied. OF course, in my world nobody will be sick, work or pay taxes because robots will do everything, even breathe for us. Ideals are ideals because they're never real. :)

And I didn't mean that risk should always be rewarded. I f'ed up a lot in my life when I took the wrong chances. I bought the wrong things, I lost money. It happens and you learn from it.

And the effort matters as long as it's phesable(sp). He's getting paid as much as his work is worth. Effort and failing at the thing you put your effort in... Why would you reward that?

Ok, how many people know the backgrounds about the candidates that run this year, know their strategies and how they'll affect their lives, can do their taxes without help from others better than some 20 years old model from 5000 miles away... It's pretty said I know more about the 2008 US election than a lot of people there. That's irresponsible. And most people know less about things that will affect their future. It's pretty sad that the American society is irresponsible(some Americans agree with me btw). My expense for instance. I'm smarter than most people, look better than most people and I'm more modest than most people(jk :P)... Why would I get taxed with 40% just because I make what I'm worth? While someone who is dumb and just moves papers gets taxed with 16%. I just put some numbers. lol. sry if I type badly, but I have my hands injured and you're making me write books. :P

BB · Joined: 07 Apr 2008 Posts: 785 Location: Bucharest, Romania

We have persons:
1)IQ:160
He is willing to work overtime, highly competitive, ambitious and determined.
2)IQ:80
Lazy, doesn't like work, takes a lot of time to do a thing.

Why would 1 get paid only 10 more than 2? He'd probably do what 2 does in a month in a day.

Satan · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject:

Satan · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject:

BB · Joined: 07 Apr 2008 Posts: 785 Location: Bucharest, Romania

I already contribute to the society through my work. Doing it from my wage would be stupid and should be left to charity. In an ideal world, people would do charity all thte time. :P

I'd like to debate more, but my boyfriend wants to go to bed and I'll join. :) Good night.

John3:16 · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:06 pm Post subject:

slimjim · Joined: 31 May 2005 Posts: 8046

life is unfair.
a communist based on theory alone... is fair.

why was karl marx wrong? he theorized a society after our current capitalist one. communism. the final step in the social evolution of humankind.

a small basic summary for background information.
people will be fed up with the inequity of wealth and revolt. they will demand 100% equality. everyone paid the same, no one above anyone.

so... why has this not happened? it seems like a nice idea on paper, what did karl marx theorize wrong? why have we not reached the final stage in human societal evolution?

self-interest, acquiring more capital some argue... is an inherent human trait. it's how we survive, it's our natural instinct. we become stronger, faster, work harder, learn more, improve our lively hoods and those around us... a basic survival instinct.

the weak die off, the strong survive. those that don't collect enough capital? will live shorter and less fulfilling lives.
humans are no longer in such a basic societal state... we more or less have this trait inside us.

implementing a capitalist or a communist or a socialist economic system will not change what we as humans are born with, the instinct to survive.

so here's the problem, bottlenecks will occur with communism. our natural drive for success and self-interest is stunted or hindered.

why bother improving cellphones, TVs, medicine, transportation, etc if our natural drive for success is not rewarded?

in a capitalist society we are rewarded for these basic human instincts, and it is evident, harder workers are generally paid more, more education means more money, faster, stronger athletes are the ones with most capital... we are in control of our lives, you want to work hard? you will be rewarded, you want to be a slob and smoke weed everyday? don't expect anything back.

I'm not gonna get into the 3rd world inequalities.... that deserves a thread of it's own.
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slimjim · Joined: 31 May 2005 Posts: 8046

BTW,

we are not paid based on quality or quantity of work exclusively.

only one thing is certain... we are paid based on how much we can generate for the company or help society as a whole.

kobe can generate millions for the lakers. he will be paid millions of dollars.
a guy at Macdonald's does not generate millions, so he won't be paid millions.

a college educated guy can potentially generate a lot more than a lazy slob with no education whatsoever... and should be paid accordingly.

this is also why we as a society look down on spoiled rich kids like Nicole Richie and Paris Hilton. they are handed millions of dollars from there parents, but are no where near qualified to generate such an amount.
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Kingsama · Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 4142 Location: Tejas

for someone who sure hates governments satan, you sure seem to want to give them more money and control...
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Aonex · Joined: 13 Jun 2003 Posts: 4456 Location: NYC

Sure lot of Ayn Rand reading laissez-faire capitalists on this board. How quickly we forget what took place in the 19th century, before minimum wages, anti-trust regulation, etc. Maybe I missed it, but I don't see where Satan is proposing a full on socialist economic system. Just like social democracies in Europe, there is a middle ground, at least one that can achieve an adequate living wage in our society, so we don't have people living in extreme poverty while living in the wealthiest nation in the world. And as Slim mentioned, we can't discuss capitalism in a vacuum in this globalized day and age... eh, but who cares about the developing world, right?
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Barnstable · Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 5067 Location: Tacoma, WA

slimjim · Joined: 31 May 2005 Posts: 8046

kobe bryant.
can generate WAY more than $200 an hour. why should he be paid $200?

there is no reason for a cap on "wages". if someone is willing to pay kobe millions and millions of dollars, it's justified (at least in most cases)
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Coville · Joined: 30 Dec 2004 Posts: 6926

Woah go BB. bow

Coville · Joined: 30 Dec 2004 Posts: 6926

Coville · Joined: 30 Dec 2004 Posts: 6926

putting price caps on anything is lunacy.

didn't good old bill do that with flu shots in his term? didn't companies stop making flu shots? wasn't there some massive shortage.

i may be mistaken, but i remember an incident like that..

slimjim · Joined: 31 May 2005 Posts: 8046

John3:16 · Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:40 pm Post subject:

BB · Joined: 07 Apr 2008 Posts: 785 Location: Bucharest, Romania

slimjim, Kobe wouldn't exist because they won't be able to pay him for endorsements because it would be over the ceiling of the cap, no endorsements, no fame in basketball, [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] pay, why would I train my whole life for it etc.

And slimjim is right, as I said earlier it's all about quality of work, aka productivity. Results/paycheck. So yes, we are paid by our quality of work mostly. Of course, I was comparing people in the same field, because wages depend on fields.

Karl Marx was wrong because he didn't realize that by treating everyone as equal, they will become equal, by not by becoming better, but by becoming worse. The equality will be done at the lower level because those at the lower levels can't elevate to the higher ones and those at the higher ones would be treated the same, so they wouldn't care about being on those high levels due to it not being worthy. And this is what happens when you apply communism in practice.

And Satan, you focus on the extremes(really wealthy, really poor, which aren't many) so why wouldn't I? :)