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| Are You For It Or Against It? |
| For It |
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| Against It |
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| Total Votes : 54 |
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strikemode14
Clublakers Moderator
Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 15461
Location: savannah
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 Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Am I for it..
Hey it might be boring to watch but, it gets the job done. Blame Shaq for not manning up and hitting them.
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gill
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 12470
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not against it. Shooting FT's is part of the game. If only Snaq could hit a decent % on his FT"s then we wouldn't have this problem or conversation for that matter.
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gcclaker
Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 3679
Location: Laker Cyber Space
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: Hackneyed idea? |
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The originator of this much debated topic everywhere was Don Nelson when he was with the Mavs. O'Neal was so enraged by halftime that he destroyed a door, an overhead TV and a table. Jackson's advice to the Big Brick? Quit making a mess and hit your free throws! Dunleavy followed suit in the 2000 WCF Finals and blew up in his face. Bird, Brown and Scott in The Finals all REFUSED to do it if memory serves me right. Would I do it to win the game? Absof'nlutely!
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Satan
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 18678
Location: Fist in the air in the land of hypocricy.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| 2wheelgod wrote: |
Hacking when allowed to use as a strategy to win a game is cowardice and stupid. It has no value in the spirit of the game. The whole notion of allowing a limited number of fouls per player is rooted in the notion of accidental contact.
But when the rule is allowed to use as an intentional strategy, a strategy that does not involving any basketball skill, then the rule should be changed. I won't like to watch cowards play. |
I like the way 2wheel has put it, particularly the bold section. Fouls are meant to be called when there is unintentional contact. Not taken on purpose. I would say the same about late game intentional fouls.
I also never understood why it wasn't a flagrant when people hugged Shaq. Aren't defenders supposed to make a play at the ball?
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bouncyman
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Satan wrote: |
| 2wheelgod wrote: |
Hacking when allowed to use as a strategy to win a game is cowardice and stupid. It has no value in the spirit of the game. The whole notion of allowing a limited number of fouls per player is rooted in the notion of accidental contact.
But when the rule is allowed to use as an intentional strategy, a strategy that does not involving any basketball skill, then the rule should be changed. I won't like to watch cowards play. |
I like the way 2wheel has put it, particularly the bold section. Fouls are meant to be called when there is unintentional contact. Not taken on purpose. I would say the same about late game intentional fouls.
I also never understood why it wasn't a flagrant when people hugged Shaq. Aren't defenders supposed to make a play at the ball? |
Hmm... regarding late game intentional fouls.. you mean to tell me if a team is up by 1 with the ball and the shot clock off, they should just be able to hold the ball until time runs out, and the other team shouldn't foul? Intentional fouls at any stage in the game of basketball are part of the strategy of the game. Your goal is to prevent the opponent from scoring points. If you allow the opponent to take a free throw at the basket, and the opponent cannot convert, that is good defense. If the Hack-A-Shaq strategy convinces one future all star (Dwight Howard?) to work on his free throws so that they can not use the strategy, then it has improved the game of basketball. To take advantage of the weakness of another team is not unsportsmanlike. If a team shot 20% from the three point line, and you packed the paint and allowed them to chuck threes, would you be responsible for making the game ugly, because the other team can't shoot threes? It's not that the Spurs can't play defense on Shaq, but straight up defense on a man of that size requires alot more physical effort than taking a foul. Wouldn't the Spurs be dumb to make Duncan play defense on Shaq and tire out their star player? It's a solid strategy. It's not the Spurs, or any other team's fault, that Shaq is a terrible free throw shooter. |
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kobejon
Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 983
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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If we had Shaq everyone here would hate hack-a-shaq but they accept it cause he is a sun
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bouncyman
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| kobejon wrote: |
| If we had Shaq everyone here would hate hack-a-shaq but they accept it cause he is a sun |
Everyone would hate it because it's a solid strategy to use against a team that has Shaq. Just like everyone here hates when teams run pick and roll on us, because our pick and roll defense is subpar. |
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LakerPride247
Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 453
Location: Dallas,TX
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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There's other players that it's been done to in the past besides O'Neal. I don't like to see the tactic employed on anyone. I didn't like seeing it when he was a Laker. I didn't like seeing it in Miami and I didn't like seeing it done to him in Phoenix. I can't stand the Big Malcontent one bit, but I don't like seeing teams do this. I've seen it done some this year with Josh Boone and in the past it was done with Ben Wallace as well. To echo another poster, I don't tune in to watch guys hug one another. It just completely ruins the flow of a game.
The only change I would make is this. If the foul was committed off the ball and the referees deem it to be intentional then I would give the team that was fouled the opportunity to send whoever they want to the line that was currently on the floor. That's really the only way you'll see a complete stop to it. |
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Lance Uppercut
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 2215
Location: Here @ C.L
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| DJ Qube wrote: |
| They already addressed the issue a few years ago. That's why you can't foul someone off the ball with under 2 minute left in the 4th quarter. I think the NBA has done enough, now the coaches / players have to do their part. There's no reason ANYBODY should shoot less than 50% from the stripe. Phil Jackson could probably shoot 50%. |
Nicely put.
| Satan wrote: |
I'm against it. It's boring as hell to watch. I watch the league to see amazing athletes perform amazing feats. Not grown men wrapping their arms around a bigger grown man.
It displays no skill. Any stiff can go out and hug a guy. I'm not paying thousands a year to watch that.
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Maybe that 20mill a year skillful athlete, who gets FREE shots
at the stripe should make FT. How come no Hack-a-80%? Now that would
be boring.
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Satan
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 18678
Location: Fist in the air in the land of hypocricy.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Should Shaq hit more free throws? Sure he should, just like 75% of the guys in the league. That's not the point.
The point is that fouls are meant to be the outcome of accidental contact in the course of play. The point is that intentional fouls and free throws are boring to watch. I'd rather there be no fouls at all.
I understand that with the rules as currently composed it's part of strategy. It's still boring, unathletic and requires no skill. I could watch any ten random guys hug each other and shoot free throws if that's what I wanted.
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ladam24
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 11016
Location: Gold Coast, AUS
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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I'm against it because it's boring as hell to watch. That being said, i have no sympathy for Shaq. There's no excuse for shooting less than 50% from the line.
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gill
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 12470
Location: Middle of Nowhere, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Satan wrote: |
Should Shaq hit more free throws? Sure he should, just like 75% of the guys in the league. That's not the point.
The point is that fouls are meant to be the outcome of accidental contact in the course of play. The point is that intentional fouls and free throws are boring to watch. I'd rather there be no fouls at all.
I understand that with the rules as currently composed it's part of strategy. It's still boring, unathletic and requires no skill. I could watch any ten random guys hug each other and shoot free throws if that's what I wanted. |
"No blood, no foul!!!" that's the way it should be. 
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And at the end of 3 quarters, the Mavs - 61, Kobe Bryant - 62 - Dec. 20, 2005
MVP! MVP! MVP! - May 7, 2008... LONG OVERDUE!
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shoe
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 3886
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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hack a shaq is a disgrace to the game
man up and play some freakin defense
its just boring to watch a team every time down the court just hug shaq and send him to the line
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wOlF
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 480
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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as a strategy, i'm fine with it
but as an audience, it just bothers me alot
doesn't feel like i'm watching a basketball game
the crowd didn't pay tons of money to watch a game where u foul intentionally 50% of the time
bothers me the most when the spurs bench was subbed in to hack-a-shaq, their whole team were hi-5 and the crowd were excited or watever
im like WTF? MAN UP AND PLAY BASKETBALL |
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grego
Clublakers Rep: Spurs
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 9315
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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It's a strategy. Teams adapt to the rules. Rules were created to improve offense, making it easier for players to get in foul trouble.
Funny, how it becomes an issue with Pop uses, it even though it's been used for years, especially by Don Nelson. If people want to put Duncan on the line, they can. They should have rather than allowing a 3 point shot. Or fouling Bowen (like Nelson did in 06).
The other team gets to the line sooner and the team that commits the fouls gets in foul trouble. It's up to the other team to take advantage of it.
There are a lot of intentional fouls that go one because of bad foul shooters, even if it's not hack-a-player.
What's next? Playing each 24 second shot clock to the last few seconds is a disgrace because it slows the tempo?
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sarc4stic
Front Page Graphics Squad
Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 1106
Location: Sau, Sau, Saubillig…Und noch viel mehr!
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| bouncyman wrote: |
| Satan wrote: |
| 2wheelgod wrote: |
Hacking when allowed to use as a strategy to win a game is cowardice and stupid. It has no value in the spirit of the game. The whole notion of allowing a limited number of fouls per player is rooted in the notion of accidental contact.
But when the rule is allowed to use as an intentional strategy, a strategy that does not involving any basketball skill, then the rule should be changed. I won't like to watch cowards play. |
I like the way 2wheel has put it, particularly the bold section. Fouls are meant to be called when there is unintentional contact. Not taken on purpose. I would say the same about late game intentional fouls.
I also never understood why it wasn't a flagrant when people hugged Shaq. Aren't defenders supposed to make a play at the ball? |
Hmm... regarding late game intentional fouls.. you mean to tell me if a team is up by 1 with the ball and the shot clock off, they should just be able to hold the ball until time runs out, and the other team shouldn't foul? Intentional fouls at any stage in the game of basketball are part of the strategy of the game. Your goal is to prevent the opponent from scoring points. If you allow the opponent to take a free throw at the basket, and the opponent cannot convert, that is good defense. If the Hack-A-Shaq strategy convinces one future all star (Dwight Howard?) to work on his free throws so that they can not use the strategy, then it has improved the game of basketball. To take advantage of the weakness of another team is not unsportsmanlike. If a team shot 20% from the three point line, and you packed the paint and allowed them to chuck threes, would you be responsible for making the game ugly, because the other team can't shoot threes? It's not that the Spurs can't play defense on Shaq, but straight up defense on a man of that size requires alot more physical effort than taking a foul. Wouldn't the Spurs be dumb to make Duncan play defense on Shaq and tire out their star player? It's a solid strategy. It's not the Spurs, or any other team's fault, that Shaq is a terrible free throw shooter. |
Very well put, bouncyman 
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Lance Uppercut
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 2215
Location: Here @ C.L
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: |
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Teams should not be allowed to run the P&R when facing Shaq and Nash.
It shows no skill and sportsmanship when these two don't know how to defend it.
Seriously, don't mind the hack-a-Shaq especially if he has the ball. Maybe a bit
cowardly on the part of Popp to do it as soon as the ball was put in play.
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Chicano
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:41 am Post subject: |
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You play to WIN the game, NOT necessarily entertain.
WHATEVER it takes, whatever advantage you can gain, f the rest, and go for it. Hallelujah.
Lmao at all those who argue it's not right for the game of the basketball and MAN UP and play defense. The bottomline is the guy getting fouled SHOULDN'T be in that damn position in the first place. If they had enough f'in pride in themselves, they'd bust their arses on their fts with all the free time they have and the millions & millions they're getting paid & they're SUPPOSED to be professionals, and they'd sink em' a lot more frequently where the strategy WOULDn't have to take place. Be mad at Shaq, don't defend him. If a player has a weakness, EXPOSE it all ALL costs.Plus everyone knows as soon as Shaq catches the ball, especially deep down in the paint, it's pretty much money. His size and power are so above everyone else, it's almost not even fair. Automatic power dunk or layups... rather put that fool on the line, plus with the way they got the "continuation" in today's game, it's too risky to wait for him to catch the ball & then foul, plus his exaggerated strength allows him to convert and ones more frequently than the average player even on hard arse fouls.
| grego wrote: |
| What's next? Playing each 24 second shot clock to the last few seconds is a disgrace because it slows the tempo? |
| Lance Uppercut wrote: |
Teams should not be allowed to run the P&R when facing Shaq and Nash.
It shows no skill and sportsmanship when these two don't know how to defend it.
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Lol. 
bouncyman, you could not be any more on the money. Props. |
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Darth Bynumite
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 2156
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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I think it is poor sportsmanship to go for the hack-a-shaq approach. However, if all you care about is winning at not costs, then it is an effective technique. Shaq can't shoot Free Throws, you would most likely want him to shoot free throws than to let the opposing offense run a play.
If Shaq and the Suns want to counter this, Shaq has to start hitting Free Throws.[/quote]
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Chicano
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| ChrisA wrote: |
| If Shaq and the Suns want to counter this, Shaq has to start hitting Free Throws. |
Problem is he won't cuz he never has. |
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Darth Bynumite
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 2156
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Chicano wrote: |
| ChrisA wrote: |
| If Shaq and the Suns want to counter this, Shaq has to start hitting Free Throws. |
Problem is he won't cuz he never has. |
He has to spend an off-season locked in a gym taking 10,000 free throws a day  . He MUST improve or else teams will exploit this massive weakness.
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Chicano
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| But what makes you think he will if he's been in the league for over a decade now and has never seemed to care enough? |
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fahrique
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 451
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Pop seemed to be using it differently than it's been used in the past. Looked to me like he was using to completely obliterate any kind of rhythm the suns were trying to establish. They couldn't run, and they wound up standing around groaning on the inside at the end of the qtrs, watching Shaq struggle. It stopped them, it demoralized them, and as an added bonus, they were lucky to get 2 pts on the rare occasion Shaq hit both. I think if Shaq was shooting 100% FTs, Pop still would have done it, just to continue killing the suns' rhythm. Notice he even went to Hack-a-Skinner at one point. I'd definitely rather watch basketball than FTs, but it was a brilliant move on Pop's part. |
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JoeBlow
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 596
Location: San Gabriel, CA
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Pop's strategy was brilliant.
- It forced Shaq to attempt (and briq) free throws at key moments of the games
- It forced Phoenix to sit Shaq down for fear of the tactic at key moments of the game
- It disrupted Nash's rhythm (he admitted) to run the offense because he couldn't get fast breaks going after the SPurs made baskets
Absolutely friggin' brilliant by Pop. By any means necessary. However...
I agree haq-a-shaq disrupts the natural flow of the game as a fan. I understand and appreciate the strategy, but it does take away from the best style of play. That said, the rules should NOT be changed to protect poor free throw shooters! Learn how to shoot a free throw... you are paid $20+ million a year!!!!
Lastly, there are OTHER things in the game that disrupts the natural flow of the game. Intentional fouls in the last minute on the ball handler, turning the end of games into free-throw contests. Totally slow, anti-climatic and boring. As said above, dribbling out the 24 second clock is boring too, but nothing can be done there except drop all possessions to maybe 15 seconds (I don't agree with this).
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JShow34
Joined: 03 Jul 2006
Posts: 1037
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| JoeBlow wrote: |
Pop's strategy was brilliant.
- It forced Shaq to attempt (and briq) free throws at key moments of the games
- It forced Phoenix to sit Shaq down for fear of the tactic at key moments of the game
- It disrupted Nash's rhythm (he admitted) to run the offense because he couldn't get fast breaks going after the SPurs made baskets
Absolutely friggin' brilliant by Pop. By any means necessary. However...
I agree haq-a-shaq disrupts the natural flow of the game as a fan. I understand and appreciate the strategy, but it does take away from the best style of play. That said, the rules should NOT be changed to protect poor free throw shooters! Learn how to shoot a free throw... you are paid $20+ million a year!!!!
Lastly, there are OTHER things in the game that disrupts the natural flow of the game. Intentional fouls in the last minute on the ball handler, turning the end of games into free-throw contests. Totally slow, anti-climatic and boring. As said above, dribbling out the 24 second clock is boring too, but nothing can be done there except drop all possessions to maybe 15 seconds (I don't agree with this). |
Brilliant???
He didn't just invent this. |
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Darth Bynumite
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 2156
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| Chicano wrote: |
| But what makes you think he will if he's been in the league for over a decade now and has never seemed to care enough? |
I think it's going to take on of his teams to MAKE him get better. Some people just aren't very good at shooting the ball. No one can expect Shaq to get MUCH better at Free Throws. He just has to bring his FT% to a respectable level.
Look at where his FT% compares to the rest of the leagues Centers:
http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/FreeTS.jsp?league=00&season=22007&conf=OVERALL&position=1&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=Y&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=
Shaq needs to bring that up to at least 56% before teams stop the Hack-A-Shaq technique.
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BB
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 785
Location: Bucharest, Romania
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| I'm all for it. Freethrow shooting is part of the game, same with strategy. If you ban hack a Shaq, ban all the intentional fouls at the end of the game because those disrupt the flow too. |
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Lance Uppercut
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 2215
Location: Here @ C.L
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry but there's nothing boring about basketball. If you are not into strategy
and fundamentals then you are not truly a fan.
Making free throws is fundamental part of basketball and if a guy can only make
half of his free throws then it's good strategy. Just like when a player has an easy
dunk or lay up, you commit a hard clean foul to make him EARN it at the FT line.
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Chicano
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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David Stern is reviewing the hack a shaq
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3386266
 
| Quote: |
| I have an idea. How about learning how to shoot a wide open free throw. Its called basketball. All 5 players play offense and defense. If your such a bad free throw shooter that a girls high school basketball player can shoot them better than you then maybe its time to hit the gym. Or maybe when someone fouls shaq he can do 10 push ups in 10 seconds and if he does them he can have a point. LOL. 20 million a year and you guy want to make a new rule because his lazy a-ss cant learn to shoot free throws. Maybe baseball should make a rule against walking a player to get to the next guy who sucks. LOL |
| Quote: |
There is no need to review this strategy. I'm a Shaq fan but the NBA shouldn't institute a rule because Shaq can't make his free throws. The Spurs and Gregg Poppovich were wise to employ this strategy because the Suns couldn't defend the Spurs and if Shaq was missing at least one free throw per trip, it was a way to slowly build a lead over the Suns.
Remember, no one complained about the rule when the Lakers won 3 championships. The reason of course is that Shaq made his free throws down the stretch back then, and the Lakers could defend so it wasn't going to kill them if Shaq missed an occassional free throw whereas if he missed a free throw with the Suns, it hurt us incredibly since we couldn't prevent the Spurs from scoring.
This is also an example of why D'antoni's system will never yield a championship. Shooting is a skill and even the best shooting teams will have off-nights but defense is largely based on effort and a team can provide a consistent defensive showing provided they provide the necessary effort. A shooting team that can't defend is bound to face trouble against the best teams in the NBA during a playoff situation. |
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blakeruns
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 5906
Location: Huntington Beach & Honolulu
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Chicano wrote: |
^ Well, isn't that Shaq's fault, or the player's fault for not having enough pride to better themselves so that doesn't have to be the case? Shouldn't they be penalized for that? & I agree with MDI, it's all strategy baby.
Oh yeah & I always gotta' lmao at Shaq's constant comment of, "I make em' when they count." (not necessarily always the case) |
You're nuts, smart strategy or not I absolutely hate hack-a-shaq it ruins the game. That's now how basketball is supposed to be played.
And its become completely ridiculous now. Its one thing to foul him hard around the basket. But off ball fouls at midcourt? That's disgusting. It makes the game take forever. It breaks up the rhythm and its just horrible to watch. Play the damn game, don't turn it into a chess match |
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