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L4L
Clublakers Moderator
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 9233
Location: Trade Rumors Forum
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 Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:23 am Post subject: IDEA: Pau to Detroit |
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Posted this in the RR and I'll post it here too. This is just an idea for hypothetical discussion. I'm not necessarily saying I'd trade Pau, but I do think it makes for great "what ifs" and basketball discussion -- a lot like the Odom for Artest ideas do.
Trade Pau Gasol!
That's right, you heard me. No, I did not say Lamar Odom. I said Pau Gasol. It may sound absurd at first, but I implore you to hear me out as I play a little Devil's Advocate.
Why It Could Work:
There are two main reasons I believe this scenario could potentially be plausible and beneficial to the team:
1. Money is saved now AND later.
2. The future is brightened with a pick and potential free agent opportunities.
Considering that this team was only TWO WINS away from an NBA Championship, and it has Andrew Bynum coming back, a lateral trade on the court, becomes a solid move once the off-court factors kick in. Remember this point. It is key. I am working around the notion that this deal only has to be a lateral movement on the court.
The Trade:
Here is the proposal:
Vladimir Radmanovic and Pau Gasol for Rip Hamilton, Antonio McDyess, and a future 1st round pick with declining levels of protection with each passing season.
Why do the Pistons do it?
Of course, right away, an explanation is required as to why the PISTONS would want to do this deal. Simply put, they finally get a deal where they consolidate some of their talent. Gasol, Rasheed, and Prince instantly becomes one of the most versatile front-courts in basketball. Rasheed provides the necessary anchoring, toughness, and defense that a big playing next to Gasol must have. He spaces the interior for Gasol, unlike Odom, and allows him to work one on one down low. Rasheed is not a reliable post scorer nor a reliable source of offense in general. In the first 43 minutes of a game, Pau is. Pau provides them with a GO-TO man in the post and thus greatly improves the offensive out put of a team that can struggle to score.
The Pistons get much younger with this deal. First of all, Pau is only 27. McDyess is well into his thirties. Because of the roster shake-up, Maxiell and Stuckey are thrust into the limelight. Detroit believes they are ready for this task -- especially Stuckey as evidenced by their active shopping of Billups. If there is anything Stuckey can do, it's score. Because he is a combo guard, he is best suited next to a PG who can shoot lights out and play off the ball well. Billups is that man. Stuckey is 6'5" and has the athleticism to handle most SGs in the NBA. When necessary, Prince can be used on the tough covers. From Detroit's perspective, they get younger and better at the expense of a pick and some cash. After getting handily beat by the Celtics, it is clear a move needs to be made. This could be "that" move for the Pistons because it isn't an all-or-nothing, push-all-the-chips-in-gamble; even if they aren't entirely successful, they still have an excellent young core (they don't trade away a single young piece). In addition, and not to be forgotten, though Vladimir is included here for salary purposes, he DOES provide a needed skill set for Detroit with Rip's departure and that is the role of the outside sniper.
Why do the Lakers do it?
Why L.A. might consider such a move is FAR more complex and I'm going to start with the on-court implications because they are of lesser importance (though, obviously, still critical).
Why Lamar as a 3 won't work:
I have to preface this entire section of my proposal with the assertion that Lamar Odom as a "SF" will not work.
Though Lamar will be defending the "3" or "SFs", he is going to be playing the off-guard in the triangle. That is, Lamar is going to be playing weakside, opposite of the sideline triangle, waiting on ball reversals when defenses flood the strong side. As the off-guard, his primary duties are ball-handling, entering the ball in the high post, operating the two man game, cutting, and shooting off-ball. I'll address each of these issues individually.
When matched up as a 3, Lamar Odom is not a strong ball-handler. This is not a secret or a mystery. In the playoffs, against San Antonio and Boston, the Lakers offense went stagnant for long periods of time because the team lacked dribble penetration and shot creation. Unlike most teams, our offensive attack has no scripted plays headed toward the hoop. The primary goal of the offense is to get a lay-up by exploiting defensive overplays or a post opportunity for our best scorer on the low block. Because of that, we need players who are capable of breaking a defense down through the use of their own talents and perhaps a pick in the two man game. Fisher is not capable of providing this ability. Bynum and Gasol are certainly not capable of providing this ability -- though to some degree both can create shots (Gasol can't when the pressure is on, but more on that later). Lamar, as a 3, is equally inept taking a defender off the bounce. In essence, by playing Lamar at the 3, we are asking Kobe to be primary and SOLE dribble-penetrator AND shot creater on the team (with the exception of Farmar on the second unit). This is poor floor balance.
To make matters worse, Odom does NOT open lanes for Kobe to drive with his shooting (like Rad does). He, in fact, closes them. By playing Odom on the perimeter, we essentially hand defenses a Rondo card -- they can play as off of Odom as they please. This hurts the team in so many ways that it cannot be summarized with numbers or text; you have to watch the games to see it take place. I'm sure we haven't forgotten Odom's benchings during critical stretches of the Finals and other games. For those who noticed his negative effect offensively during the Finals, this will only be amplified when he plays on the perimeter. In the mid-range, Odom commands some level of respect. From deep, he doesn't.
For those saying, "look how good Odom was as a 3rd option! Just wait till he's a 4th option!" Ask yourself, "How did Odom help as a 3rd option and how will he help as a 4th option in his new role?" To answer the first question, Odom was an extremely versatile interior defender. He grabbed boards and banged bodies with guys like Perkins while also matching skills with players such as Dirk. As a 3, this versatility is virtually gone. He must stay in front of players who are simply quicker than him. To quote Tex Winters, "Odom has the worst sliding mechanics I have ever seen." That is a strong statement. Simply put, Odom isn't quick from side to side. Guys like Pierce? They are quick from side to side -- quicker than Odom. Odom did most of his scoring around the rim. Odom was around the rim most often when he was crashing for boards, cutting after beating a fellow, slower PF, getting a post opportunity, pushing on the fast break, but he also sank the occasional mid-range jumper. Of all the scoring opportunities listed, only cutting, pushing on the break, and the mid-range jumper will still be available. However, he will get LESS mid-range jumpers because he is going to be stationed further out from the hoop and spend more time off-ball, he is going to get LESS rebounds because he has to get back on defense (only two bigs stay back to board), he's not going to score as much off of cuts because he will have a harder team beating 3s off-ball than he did 4s, AND he's simply going to be around the hoop less (the place where his %s are highest).
Odom brings a lot to the table, but trying to pigeon hole him into the 3 position isn't going to work because he is going to be FORCED to play to his weaknesses:
-He doesn't cut well and now his job is even harder in this area
-He's a poor shooter and this is where most of his looks will come from as a perimeter player
-He can't penetrate to the hoop with frequency and now this will become more difficult against smaller, quicker defenders
-His rebounding responsibilities will decrease because he will spend more time on the perimeter
-His passing will be less important and he plays more and more off-ball.
Because of these factors many people think Lamar Odom should be traded for a true SF. This could definitely be the remember we are looking for. However, I'd like to offer forward the trade out-lined above as a framework for a potential alternative to the front court conundrum.
Examining the impacts on the backcourt:
1. About Rip
We all know a little bit about Hamilton. He is one of the best mid-range shooters in the game, he works tirelessly of the ball, he doesn't need to dominate the ball to score, he has excellent ball-handling ability, he's tough mentally AND physically, he's clutch, he's developed into a 40%+ three-point shooter, and he's a solid defender.
2. PG Defense
However, what a lot of people don't know is that Rip spent time in Detroit guarding QUICK PGs. Chauncey is given tons of credit as one of the best defenders in the game, but the fact is that Chauncey has a great defensive supporting cast around him and you don't even need to look at the guys who protect the rim first. Yes, that's right. Rip has the versatility to defend those quicker PGs. What does this mean for our team? Well, it means, for stretches, we would have an answer, besides Kobe, for those previously indomitable little guys who got into the paint at will against Farmar and Fisher.
3. Improved Spacing
Having a perimeter compromised of Rip, Kobe, and Fisher would result in excellent spacing because all three of these players are extremely proficient jump shooters from all areas of the court. The spacing here is much, much better than it would be with Lamar at the 3.
4. Creating shots and a Consistent second option
In addition, Rip FINALLY would give us a dependable second option when Kobe sits down on the bench. He can create his own shot at anytime off the bounce or in the post which makes him an ideal triangle player.
5. Experience matters on a young team
Rip is a veteran with championship experience; he has the type of poise we lacked against the Celtics (Sasha/Farmar). Does anyone think Ray Allen would have waltzed to the cup in the same fashion he did against Sasha going one on one against Rip Hamilton?
6. Rip negates the need for Sasha
Rip can play 40 minutes a game. We wouldn't need to pay Sasha for duplicate skill sets. There wouldn't be playing time for him in this scenario anyway.
Examining the impacts on the front-court:
There are numerous ways in which this deal would improve our front-court:
1. Kobe in the front-court
Tex has always advocated Kobe at the wing stating he is a better and more efficient scorer at this position. The numbers back this up.
Per 48 Minutes:
| Code: |
This year, at SG: 26.9 PER, 49.8 eFG%, and 34.4 points.
This year, at SF: 28.4 PER, 51.7 eFG%, and 36.0 points.
Last year, at SG: 25.7 PER, 50.1 eFG%, and 33.7 points.
Last year, at SF: 31.4 PER, 50.8 eFG%, and 42.2 points.
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2. More post-ups for Kobe
In addition, because Odom can play the triangle 2 while still defending 4s (Pau can't play the perimeter at all), Kobe would be allowed to spend all of his time in the pinch post, mid-wing, and the wing. He can split all his time at the 3 and 4 spots in the triangle (offensively). Kobe is the most unstoppable high post player in basketball. He is close enough, from this 12-15ft distance, to raise up and hit the jumper well over 50% and he has enough space to use ONE dribble to get to the rim for the finish. With the array of moves he possesses, and due to the fact he has no weak hand or foot, Kobe cannot be stopped in the pinch post. Period. With Odom, Pau, Bynum, Kobe doesn't even get to sniff the post unless either Pau or Bynum sits. When both are on the court, neither can play any of the perimeter triangle slots. This leaves Bryant relegated strictly to working from the top of the key and from the furthest reaches of the wing offensively. He is simply less efficient from this distance.
3. Pau is a soft rebounder regardless of position
A lot of people claim that Pau is suddenly going to be fixed when he moves to the four spot. Well, granted, he isn't going to get abused quite as bad on the boards, but guess what? He still loses the battle.
The Break Down:
10/10 Samples of Gasol at C have him getting less rebounds than his opponent.
4/7 Samples of Gasol at PF have him getting less rebounds than his opponent.
3/3 Samples of Gasol at C in the playoffs have him getting less rebounds than his opponent.
1/3 Samples of Gasol at PF in the playoffs have him getting less rebounds than his opponent.
1/7 Samples of Gasol have him getting a superior rebounding differential at C versus PF.
Gasol's Average Differential at C from all Data: -3.04
Gasol's Average Differential at PF from all Data: -0.33
Conclusion: While he gets out-rebounded at both post positions on average, Gasol is a much better rebounder at the 4 and does not hurt a team's rebounding ability nearly as much when he plays that position. However, he still loses the battle.
The Data:
Rebounding differential per 48 minutes:
2007-2008:
Lakers:
C: -4.4
Memphis:
C: -2.4
2006-2007:
C: -1.2
2005-2006:
PF: -1.3
C: -1.7
2005-2006 Playoffs:
PF: +0.4
C: -6.4
2004-2005:
PF: -2.3
C: -1.6
2004-2005 Playoffs:
PF: +4.6
C: -3.7
2003-2004:
PF: +0.1
C: -0.4
2003-2004 Playoffs:
PF: -3.3
C: -7.2
2002-2003:
PF: -0.5
C: -1.4
As we can see, the grandiose ideas of LO, Pau and Bynum snatching every board away are far-fetched. Pau is going to get beat on the boards even at the 4 spot. In fact, he was matched up with KG very, very frequently in the Finals and got beat soundly on the boards. Also, LO is going to be headed the other direction, getting back on defense, as all SFs do, while Pau and Bynum board. He's not even going to be responsible for rebounding duties when he plays SF much of the time.
4. Pau won't be better defensively against 4s
Now, let's address the claim that Pau will be better defensively against 4s. Do people honestly believe that Pau has the foot-speed to stay with David West, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Garnett, Amare Stoudemire, and the like out on the perimeter? If KG would have made anywhere NEAR his regular percentages on his jumpers, like the usual %s he put up against Gasol while the two played elsewhere, KG would have averaged somewhere near 24ppg and 50% shooting with 13 rebounds a game. We cannot count on people like Garnett to miss a higher % of their jumpers when history suggests they are good shooters. Pau is not a terrible man defender in the post; he is actually very underrated. Out on the perimeter against some of today's 4s? I see big time trouble in store for him and, consequently, the Lakers.
Let's check the numbers on this issue:
Regular Seasons (PER given up PF vs C:
2006-2007: No time at PF
2005-2006: 17.1 vs 15.1 -- PF defense was worse
2004-2005: 17.0 vs. 19.0 -- PF defense was better, but played bad defensively at both positions
2003-2004: 17.6 vs. 13.3 -- PF defense was FAR worse
2002-2003: No PER available, but 55.4 eFG% and 23.7 points at PF versus 48.8 eFG% and 19.4 points at C
What have we learned?: Pau is a WORSE defender at the four. Not better, WORSE.
5. Pau is anti-clutch
Simply put, we relied on Pau for second option type offensive production this post-season and he failed us. It is in the scouting reports and it manifested itself in the playoffs; he has a tendency to get caught up in big moments and disappear. In the last 5 minutes of the game when the score is within 5 (playoffs), Pau averaged 17.6 points per 48 minutes. That is far from impressive. However, the important thing here is that when we went to him down low, he shot 40 eFG% on the shots he created. FORTY percent of these shots were BLOCKED. FORTY PERCENT. Oh, and the dunk attempts that were, 2/3 of the time, created by a team mate for him, he only made 60%. Even beyond the numbers, Pau is simply not a clutch offensive player nor a guy who handles the big stage well in general.
Pau's primary contribution to our team, during the regular season, was his POST-SCORING and his ability to be a second option. If he can't do this in the playoffs, ask yourself what he is really bringing to the table and exactly how valuable is he when he doesn't play well offensively?
6. Benefits of LO at the 4
LO, on the other hand? He's proven, defensively, against guys like Dirk, David West, and he theoretically has better tools to slow Amare (though it really hasn't helped in the most recent meetings). Either way, I think most people can agree that, although he's not a stud, LO is simply a better man defender, at the four, than Gasol against most players. In fact, because he won't be relied upon for much offensive out-put, LO can FOCUS on defense and rebounding at the four spot and will do those jobs well in the process. LO will never be dominated on the boards or look like his feet are trapped in cement blocks. We can count on that.
I know it's a sad, old, and oft-played tune, but LO already knows the triangle. He's had several very effective stretches as a facilitating rebounder at the four position. He's solid for us in this role and his versatility allows Kobe to post up which is the single most underrated aspect of LO's game by most CL fans; this is invaluable in my opinion.
7. Why McDyess matters
Antonio McDyess gives us some of the veteran experience and leadership we desperately need. He is tough as nails and assume the enforcer role we never had this past season. Yes, he's had injury troubles, but he's played all 82 for the last two seasons. When LO is hurting the offense with his jump shot or lack thereof, in comes McDyess who shot 41 eFG%, during the regular season and 49 eFG% in the playoffs, on his jump shots. He is a very good mid-range shooter. In addition, he is actually a better defender than Lamar. When we need a defensive boost we can turn to McDyess. Though he doesn't get any credit for it, McDyess actually played center for stretches against the Magic and that means he manned up with Dwight Howard. Against the right opponents, I think he can get burn at center when Bynum is resting.
8. Bynum becomes THE man
By making Bynum the only offensive post option outside of Kobe, there is no question about the big man pecking order. Low block touches go to Andrew. This not only speeds his development, but it pleases him and justifies a maximum level deal (or anything close to it). Pau gave us less and less in terms of one on one, back to the basket offense as the playoffs progressed, if Bynum can do just a little something, we're still improving in that category as well. Even if he doesn't, I believe Kobe is the best post player we have in any case.
Examining the impacts on the future of the team:
1. The Pick
Obviously, a first rounder helps us add prospective talent. That one is easy to understand and very straight forward.
2. Saving $$$
This is just simple math here.
As you can see, the Lakers save about 8 million dollars over the next two years. Considering where we are luxury tax wise and factoring in the first round pick, That is somewhere between 10-14 million dollars of savings. That is nothing to sneeze at.
3. 2010 Cap Space
Technically, this is part of my last section, but it is so incredibly important to the idea at hand, that it deserves special attention. By decreasing our payroll in 2010 by 25 million dollars, we create enough cap space for a maximum contract slot. No, Rip Hamilton is probably not the guy we are going to go after here. With this money, the Lakers will secure a competitive piece that is also YOUNG enough to be one of Bynum's cohorts once Kobe and Lamar are done playing basketball (which isn't immediately, mind you, because Kobe is only 32 at this point).
Here is what it looks like:
There is a lot going on here so me list each one of my presumptions:
1. Kobe opts out and takes a paycut for the team. 65mi/4years. 16.25mi average a year.
2. Bynum goes ahead and gets his 80mi/5years.
3. Odom gets a 50mi/5year extension.
4. Farmar needs to be extended but is simply tendered a qualifying offer. We will resign him AFTER we sign a big name with the cap space to prevent him from eating it up.
5. Assuming our picks will be on the high side just to make the money seem more plausible in terms of what those picks cost us.
6a. Assuming the FO doesn't make a mistake signing scrubs for longer than a year without making it a team option. The core team in the 2009-2010 season will be:
PG: Fisher, Farmar
SG: Rip, 1st Rounder
SF: Kobe, Luke
PF: LO, McDyess
C: Bynum
6b. There will only be 9 players on contract in 2009-2010. They could address this during the 2008-2009 season by giving players two year deals in order to appease them. No one likes to take one year deals; they want more job security. The bottom line here is that they need to fill out the 4 roster spots (to get the "13 players" that Mitch said he wants) with veteran minimum contracts or two year deals with a team option for the second year. I don't think this is too unrealistic considering they are all scrubs.
Okay, so, we're sitting there with approximately 47.5 million tied up. The cap this year is 58.6 million. Last year it was about 55.6 million (more like 56.5). The year before that the cap only increased 2.5 million instead of 3. Even with inflation, I'll be conservative and say the cap only increases 5 million in the two years from 2008-2009 to 2010-2011. That leaves us with 61 million as the cap and the Lakers sitting approximately 13.5 million under that number. This is not enough to get LeBron, but it is enough to get Bynum a partner.
Let's take a nice look at the 2010 free agent list(well the ones I like):
| Code: |
Player Team Free Agent Type
Al Horford Atlanta Restricted F.A.
Al Thornton L.A. Clippers Restricted F.A.
Amare Stoudemire Phoenix Unrestricted F.A.
Caron Butler Washington Unrestricted F.A.
Chris Bosh Toronto Unrestricted F.A.
Dwyane Wade Miami Unrestricted F.A.
Greg Oden Portland Restricted F.A.
Jason Richardson Charlotte Unrestricted F.A.
Josh Howard Dallas Unrestricted F.A.
Kevin Durant Seattle Restricted F.A.
LeBron James Cleveland Unrestricted F.A.
Michael Redd Milwaukee Unrestricted F.A.
Ming Yao Houston Unrestricted F.A.
Richard Jefferson Milwaukee Unrestricted F.A.
Sean Williams New Jersey Restricted F.A.
Thaddeus Young Philadelphia Restricted F.A.
Yi Jianlian New Jersey Restricted F.A. |
You don't think one of these guys will be stuck on a bad team looking to skip town for money and a better opportunity elsewhere? Everyone in the league knows there is FA action of enormous importance going down in 2010; the ramifications will be felt for years and years. This puts L.A. right in the thick of it all.
In fact, if the FO can dump Walton, perhaps using the Pistons 1st round pick they acquired, it puts the Lakers in the mix for James, Bosh, and Wade. If the Lakers landed any of these players, there would be no down time from the winning down by Kobe/Rip/LO/Bynum from 2008-2010 (chance for two rings). Kobe would be able to ride off into the sunset. For the last four seasons of his career, he'd have a great chance to win rings in each and every season. The Lakers would keep right on winning once he was gone. A core of Bynum/Any of the big names on that list/Veteran LO is still a very, very good core trio. Worst comes to worst, the FO can bring Rip back at a fair price. From there, the roster could be filled with veterans using the remaining cap space. This would give the Lakers a chance for four more good runs at a title while Kobe was still playing.
Final Thoughts
Remember, as long as you think the team, post-trade, is good enough to win rings, it doesn't matter whether or not you think we'd be even better with Pau. In this variation, we save money, collect talent for the future, and open avenues that could extend our dynasty well into the next decade. Personally, I think there is a strong argument in favor of us also improving on the court. Mainly, I just want people to think and explore new avenues that most Laker fans aren't talking about. Could trading Pau be one such avenue? I think so.
I appreciate any and all feedback as well as criticism.
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All-NBA Challenge Roster:
PG: Steve Nash, Stephon Marbury, Delonte West
SG: Ray Allen, Francisco Garcia, DeShawn Stevenson
SF: Paul Pierce, Shane Battier, Ruben Patterson
PF: Kevin Garnett, Kurt Thomas, Andray Blatche
C: Kendrick Perkins, Joel Przybilla, Rasho Nesterovic |
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10scott10
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5255
Location: looking for the royal room entrance
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:25 am Post subject: |
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if you put that much effort into the all-nba challenge, we're pretty much screwed
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Savory Griddles
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 6644
Location: AV,CA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:34 am Post subject: |
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That puts Detroit in contention for the forseeable future. That pick would end up being pretty worthless, IMO. Pau, Prince, Billups is a solid trio and in the East, a top 4 team for the next 4-5 years. Ya can't put that pick that far in the future.
Lakers get weaker. Yes, that team may be able to scrap it out for a ring, but we are left VERY small on the wings wih Kobe guarding bigger sfs. Rip's not a big dude either. We're better off trading Odom. Pau's younger, bigger and better. Its easier to find a sf who can defend than it is to find a pf with Pau's tools.
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DC_King
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: |
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NO
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Long Live The King |
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diehard
Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 705
Location: In the Paint
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:56 am Post subject: |
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"Be true to yourself and you will never fall." |
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SignPippenNow
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 2266
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: |
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A bunch of us agree Lamar at 3 won't work like Lakers think. My question to you is why trade Pau not certain Bynum will be 100 percent because Lamar can't play center in that case and Pau can. Why not trade Lamar who is an expiring K for a small forward who can play that position. They would be fools to trade Pau right now.
An article on Hoopshype today by Roland Lazenby doesn't exactly put Jim Buss and Bynum in the best light. |
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akola
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 226
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: |
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HYPOTHETICALLY STUPID
very |
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Lance Uppercut
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 2234
Location: Here @ C.L
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| akola wrote: |
HYPOTHETICALLY STUPID
very |
Dude why haven't you gotten banned yet? You do this all the time.
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neelio010
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 150
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| I would possibly do it. Because i like Rips game. But i don't think that Mitch would jump on that oppurtunity. And since you extended Odom in your proposal we still would not have enough money to sign that superstar in the 2010 2eason. |
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Calistrtballr
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| disgusting trade. Good thing ur not our GM |
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Master Zen
Joined: 07 Jul 2008
Posts: 30
Location: France
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: |
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Yeh, If we follow you, why can't trade Kobe? huh? Kobe, Bynum, Gasol, Odom, just trade our best players!
We struggled several years to build that contender team, Kobe/Pau/Bynum etc... And now every fans want to break that!
That's ridiculous, especially for Hamilton who gonna be on the bench and McDyess almost retired. You said Future? Pau is just 27. Both Detroit Players are over 30.
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JoeHeff
Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 164
Location: born in LA, now in AL. yeouch
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| 10scott10 wrote: |
| if you put that much effort into the all-nba challenge, we're pretty much screwed |
ROFL!!! 
Just got done reading OP, and this as the first response just made me laugh out loud... literally... at my desk in an almost silent work environment with people around me stopping what they are doing to give me strange looks.
Anyway, very interesting read L4L. Hard to argue against trading Pau when presented like that. Even though I feel like i want to keep Pau (mainly because the repercussions of Shaq leaving has FINALLY landed us an allstar talent), I have to admit that there were many times in the playoffs that I thought if only we had gotten "this guy" or "that guy", it would be like Pau but better!
Just makes me sad to think of shipping Pau out when we didn't even have him for a whole season.
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JoeHeff
Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 164
Location: born in LA, now in AL. yeouch
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: |
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To add some more thought...
Forgetting about stats, research and all that for a second... Just WATCHING GAMES this season, I got this warm fuzzy feeling inside whenever Kobe was on the wing. Whenever it was Pau-Odom-Kobe-Sasha-Fish/Farmar, I couldn't stop the big goofy grin and the feeling of "alright... now it's on. We're about to go on a big run". And many many times it happened. I talked about it with my friends, I talked about it with my family, with my coworkers... Anyone who cared to talk basketball, I would tell them how the Lakers need to run that lineup more often b/c when Kobe's on the wing is when he really starts to take over games.
As you pointed out L4L, the stats back this up (as far as Kobe being more efficient from the wing), but I just wanted to point out that it's plain to see without looking at the stats. There's times you're jumping off your couch hooping and hollaring and there's times your trying to bury yourself under the couch. The highest jumping and loudest cheering from my living room was when there were 2 other guards on the floor with Kobe. Because he goes into DOMINATION mode.
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JoeHeff
Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 164
Location: born in LA, now in AL. yeouch
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:06 am Post subject: |
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And one more thing for the flaming responses so far...
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Trade Pau Gasol!
That's right, you heard me. No, I did not say Lamar Odom. I said Pau Gasol. It may sound absurd at first, but I implore you to hear me out as I play a little Devil's Advocate. |
L4L didn't say "Oh hey Pau is soft, ship him out lol". He put enough time and thought into the IDEA just for intelligent discussion, did everyone take the time to at least READ everything he wrote, much less put some thought into WHY you think his idea is stupid.
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Weezy
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
Posts: 21604
Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, but I don't like like. We wanted a star PF for years and we got him. And I think we could get more for him than just Rip and McDyess, a shooter and an aging vet. We lost like 5 games with Pau, I just don't see why we would trade him. Also, a big name player is not going to sign with us in 2010, big name players want to be stars, none of them want to come play under Kobe Bryant. I think we see how Bynum and Pau work together before we even consider trading him.
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Indianballer
Joined: 05 May 2008
Posts: 100
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Wow solid Points and I agree with your proposal. To a certain extent. THink about this you are right Gasol is a soft rebounder, but he is still above average. Though his number have not shown any improvent at 4 think about this. Gasol had never played next to a bynum. Bynum's presence makes the box out and rebound much more easier for Gasol then ever before. Thus the twin towers will compliment each other rebounding wise. Imagine Gasol just had to conted with Perkins in the finals knowing that Garnett was already boxed out by bynum thats the benefit I imagine we will see.
Second I would like to see a little more compensation then Mcydess. When I say a little I mean very little Like throw in an Aaron Afflalo or Maxiell to seal the deal.
Finally there is a solution to this problem with out making trades. You move Odom to the back up four and back up point. That way he's getting a ton of minutes and he's in his more natural position. And we can let our combo of Ariza, Walton, Radman get the 3 rotation and we can just play whoever is playing well at the position at the time. Plus adding Odom to our second unit adds a great rebounder and veteran talent we need. Yes, I know this move does not save money but it would not reflect well on the Lakers to turn around and trade Gasol 5 months after acquiring him.
Overall good idea I would not be say if this trade happens and I actually like the idea, but it is to extreme for the Lakers FO to think about. |
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Armani
Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 963
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: |
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A+ for your effort 
IMO rip and mcdyess are both old and declining so i don't really like the trade.
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Armani
Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 963
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| 10scott10 wrote: |
| if you put that much effort into the all-nba challenge, we're pretty much screwed |
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aansari
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Posts: 145
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Marques24kobe
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 10
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: |
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[quote="10scott10"]if you put that much effort into the all-nba challenge, we're pretty much screwed[/quote
I agree that is f----n hillarious. Good homework but I agree why would a big name star want to come play under Kobe. Besides that what if Bynum blows out his knee again----> were screwed and we all would be talkin about how we had Gasol but traded him away for some has beens to clear cap space. Im all for winning year after year but out best bet is to hope FO trades LO for a good sign and trade contract and take the salary cap hit. Otherwise there are just to many what ifs. We have good team now lets role with it. Besides that if you do this trade you wait a year or two and make sure Bynum is the real deal first, which I think he is. |
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therealdeal
Joined: 17 Jul 2008
Posts: 348
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: |
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wow that was ridiculously thorough
but still a bad idea, Gasol, Bynum has been the idea all along since we got him, why ruin it for two older dudes? |
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khmrP
Joined: 26 May 2007
Posts: 611
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| I pass on this trade...Det gets considerably better and we get actually i dont even know what we get, I think Rip is a product of his O, they set screens after screens for him, I dont see how the triangle is going to do that for him. Also as stated Bynum injury still seems to have a lot of question marks and if he goes down again we are def. screwed. |
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javier.m0793
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: |
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this doesnt make our starting line up better at all only our bench
just because rip can run verywhere doesnt mean he can defend a player like pierce or lebron because we dont put kobe on them because we want him to rome around on defense to pest other players |
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revgen
HDTV/Multimedia Guru
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 9006
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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The only thing that intrigues me about this deal is being able to have expiring trade pieces in 2010 for possibly landing Lebron or some other talented player.
Other than that, this deal doesn't intrigue me. Perhaps Pau can't guard Dirk, David West, or Amare, but I doubt they can guard him either. And with Drew at the 5 position, and Kobe on the perimeter, none of them are going to receive much help from their teamates. Pau on the other hand, will recieve help from Bynum since Drew will probably be guarding an offensively weak 5 and can help Pau when it's needed. And if we're playing a team like Phoenix with Shaq and Amare, the help can come from Lamar instead if Drew can't leave Shaq.
Also, one of our rebounding problems last year was perimeter rebounding. LO at the SF can improve this quite a bit, so whatever rebounds Pau doesn't get in the post, Bynum will have anyway. Last year Drew and LO shared the rebounding in the post. Had LO not been there, Drew IMO would have had way more. Also, if LO gets a rebound on the perimeter, he can immediately start dribbling down the court to the basket even easier than he would if he grabbed a rebound in the post.
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lakerfan2
Joined: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 2862
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: |
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for the time you spent putting this together...
However I think Pau can help us out over more seasons than Rip and Antonio can provide us. Those guys are pretty banged up and are almost past their prime.
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BYNUM BRIGAAADDEEEEE!!! 
"He(Bynum) was cradling a basketball as if he were holding an infant in his arm, 'I can't wait for this season.' " |
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Armani
Joined: 16 Jun 2007
Posts: 963
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| lakerfan2 wrote: |
for the time you spent putting this together...
However I think Pau can help us out over more seasons than Rip and Antonio can provide us. Those guys are pretty banged up and are almost past their prime. |
agree.
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iLikeBigBUTTS
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 283
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Great post.....but no thanks! |
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Amongst:Kings
Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 307
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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Great post, really. Maybe the most thought out I've ever read.
But, trading Gasol is not the answer. The importance of interior passing, which is Gasol's best strength IMO, cannot be overlooked. I like the idea of RIP, but he is not worth Gasol. Gasol brings so much to the table that so few players can match. Same with Odom. If we had to move one becuase Phil, Tex, Kobe, etc felt that it couldn't work, then 99/100 times Odom is the one on the way out.
Odom for Marion or Artest would be ideal The again, seeing a Bynum/Gasol/Odom frontcoourt would be extremely potent. |
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