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JSM
Clublakers Site Manager
Joined: 28 Apr 2003
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Location: Atlanta
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 Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| GuRu wrote: |
Peter Vescey = credible...
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Hey now...he is a pretty good source. He said Webber was going to be traded and he was 100% sure on this...
It was during the playoffs...too bad that it was when the NBA was on NBC and it was the playoffs in 2001. Maybe he got it a little early. Should we call him Mr. Cleo?
I think there is some truth to this rumor though. I would be willing to bet that we are talking to the Wizards about Kwame and that Caron would be the one heading to DC...but I have a hard time believing that we would put an offer on the table, before being 100% sure that there wasn't a way we could get Magloire. And I have a hard time believing that it would be a straight up deal, no way Mitch can be dumb enough to take Gump (the PF), without getting something else from them.
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Jordan-esque
Joined: 28 May 2004
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Location: So Cal in Sept
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| sky_hook wrote: |
Even if Jerry West likes Kwame Brown.....do you think he would give up Caron Butler for him? I dont think so. |
True.
People always think Jerry West's draft = Kobe Bryant. But that's not always true. Just because Jerry West likes the guy, it doesn't mean he's a sure fire hit. I mean, just look at Devean George! Anyway, Jerry West was also so high on Drew Gooden and even drafted him #4 overall, to only trade him the year after for Mike Miller. What's up with that? Imagine if Jerry West drafted Kwame. After finding out what little basketball IQ he had, West would've probably traded him before training camp even started.
Going back to the topic.
Kwame Brown? Didn't he have a little nickname on the papers back then as "Kwame Brick", not because he was shooting bricks, but because he was as dumb as a brick?
Sure he has potential, sure he's got a big body, sure he's still young, heck, he might turn out to be Jermaine O'Neal. But at this stage? I don't think he'd even make an "impact" with the team in the next 3 years. He could be Jermaine O'Neal or he could just end up like Ousmane Cisse or worse.
If Kwame only showed some, just a little basketball IQ, then I'd do it, because potential is worth squat if your head's not in the right place. But right now, I'd only do it if there were other players involved as well. Because the Lakers are giving away someone already proven for someone with only potential.
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JSM
Clublakers Site Manager
Joined: 28 Apr 2003
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Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| jaminges wrote: |
| Caron Butler and Devean George for Kwame Brown and a first round pick. |
In a weak draft...not thanks. We have some good young players, we have a couple of decent prospects in the summer league too. We need to add veterans now and players that can play now. Best thing for us in a draft next year would be Adam Morrison, he would be a great triangle player, but just not something we need at this point, especially not at the expense of losing Caron and only getting Kwame, for the time being.
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JSM
Clublakers Site Manager
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| sirronstuff wrote: |
| It'll give Bynum a chance to develop while we have a serviceable center. Interesting..... |
Did I miss something in the deal? Where do we get a servicable center? Please tell me you aren't calling Kwame one. He's a PF. Maybe in the East, they can get by with playing him some at the C, when Haywood sits, but not in the West. He would get torn to shreds. He can't even play the PF, his natural position, how do you expect him to play C?
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JSM
Clublakers Site Manager
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| silversyphon41 wrote: |
| jaminges wrote: |
| Caron Butler and Devean George for Kwame Brown and a first round pick. |
Interesting proposal. This would clearly be a trade for the future. Caron can produce right now, but Kwame can't. Kinda like a Jermaine O'Neal idea, when Portland ditched him just before he began to produce. Oh the possibilities.  |
The words Kwame and Jermaine should never be used in a comparison. If you chopped of JO's left leg and right arm, he would be more productive than Kwame has ever been.
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grego
Clublakers Rep: Spurs
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 9340
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| BGil wrote: |
| VerbalMilk wrote: |
| DMK wrote: |
| VerbalMilk wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Kobe is a much better ball handler than Jordan ever was |
Actually, Kobe's handles didn't get good until about 2002 or later. MJ had handles coming out of NC, bro. Kobe was ALWAYS a hazard with the rock early on. |
 Kobe's handles > MJ's at any point of his career. |
Nope. Go back and watch Kobe from 96-01..and see how many ball handling TOs he has. MJ was WAY more polished as a ball handler when he came out of NC, which is understandable since KB came from high school. |
No way. Jordan averaged 3.55 TO's a game in his rookie year. And that's when he was being guarded by a bunch of stiffs. |
MJ started in his first year. Kobe started in 6 and averaged 15.5 mpg while MJ averaged 38.8 mpg. A little hard to use the turnover argument when MJ played more than double the minutes.
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Last edited by grego on Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JSM
Clublakers Site Manager
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Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Caron1 wrote: |
| Plus, maybe we could include Chucky in the deal (Wash. needs a new combo guard now that Hughes is gone)? |
I'd throw in Cook and Sasha, just so we could make some roster room for a few new players from the Wizards. Because if we are giving up Caron and Atkins, we better be getting a lot more than just Kwame.
Cook, Sasha, Atkins, Caron for Kwame, Hayes, Blatche, and future draft pick.
That looks good to me, only if we get Daniels, because Smush surely can't handle starting.
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JSM
Clublakers Site Manager
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| LakersCourt wrote: |
| I am EXTREMLY HIGH |
To like Kwame and willing to do a straight up deal, you must be
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grego
Clublakers Rep: Spurs
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| jsm0331 wrote: |
| LakersCourt wrote: |
| I am EXTREMLY HIGH |
To like Kwame and willing to do a straight up deal, you must be |
It is LakersCourt though, so that's highly believable.
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JSM
Clublakers Site Manager
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Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| LakersCourt wrote: |
PG-LeBron James
SG-Kobe Bryant
SF-Lamar Odom
PF-Kwame Brown
C-Andrew Bynum |
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Jordan-esque
Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 4684
Location: So Cal in Sept
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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they_perch had a little intersting analysis about Caron and Kwame...
| they_perch wrote: |
Kwame's stats:
7.0 pts, 4.9 rebounds, and 0.36 bpg.
Butler's stats:
15.5 pts, 5.8 rebounds, and 0.30 bpg.
and although Butler averaged a little over 10 more minutes per game, he outscored, outrebounded, and nearly matched Kwame's bpg. that is absurd. terrible terrible deal. why would we trade for another project bigman, we have bynum.
i'd rather hold onto butler and let him develop, elevated trade value that we can dump at the deadline. |
If a SF from the "big men dominated West" can outrebound and outblock a PF from the "smaller East"... then why bother?
Heck, we can just probably put Butler on the 4-spot, and he might even do a better job than Brown.
Kidding aside, there has to be more to offer than a straight up deal for Caron and Kwame for Mitch to pull the trigger.
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Last edited by Jordan-esque on Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JSM
Clublakers Site Manager
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| sky_hook wrote: |
| What has Kwame Brown done in this league. |
Oooh...I know...I know.
He took himself out of what would have easily been his career game, in the second quarter, because he was tired. He had the best 1 1/2 quarters of his life, but couldn't handle it and had to go sit down.
Let's see what else...oh yeah. He managed to get sent home by his team in the playoffs.
Way to go Kwame!
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mojoballer
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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If we get another player (Dixon, Blatche, Blake) - I LIKE THIS TRADE.
It's funny how so many of you like to bash Caron and says he sucks and doesn't play any D - then turn around and say he's too VALUABLE when we offer him in a trade.
Personally, I've never thought Caron's D was ever that bad. The whole TEAM'S D was bad, so it was hard to pass judgement on him based on last year. I actually like Caron a lot.
But decent SF's are a dime a dozen. Caron will never become a superstar. He might become a VERY good SF. Those are available in the draft every year. Look at this year, Granger at 17, Green at 18. And those two could eventually be better than Caron.
Big's are rare. When you have a chance to get a young big with potential for a guy you're PROJECTING TO COME OFF YOUR BENCH - you gotta do it.
As for saving Caron for other big man trades - what other trades are there? Everyone keeps saying Magloire, but is that realistic? That's prob as realistic as the Bender trade was. |
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JSM
Clublakers Site Manager
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| 1 x Butler x 1 wrote: |
| GuRu wrote: |
Caron for Kwame?
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-Can we please show journalists the respect they deserve. Peter Vescey writes for a very respected newspaper and I don't think he deserves to be degraded because of some trades he predicted that didn't happen. I know a couple of "insiders" that have the CL MoBerators behing them so they hear nothing. Please show him the respect you show emplay, Lionel, etc. |
Obviously you still carry a grudge over those stats that Guru posted in the Caron thread.
Come on, Peter is a second rate tabloid writer. And it's not the more respected paper in NY.
Peter's rumor mill is about as accurate as Shaq Fan's.
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Jordan-esque
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| jsm0331 wrote: |
| 1 x Butler x 1 wrote: |
| GuRu wrote: |
Caron for Kwame?
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-Can we please show journalists the respect they deserve. Peter Vescey writes for a very respected newspaper and I don't think he deserves to be degraded because of some trades he predicted that didn't happen. I know a couple of "insiders" that have the CL MoBerators behing them so they hear nothing. Please show him the respect you show emplay, Lionel, etc. |
Obviously you still carry a grudge over those stats that Guru posted in the Caron thread.
Come on, Peter is a second rate tabloid writer. And it's not the more respected paper in NY.
Peter's rumor mill is about as accurate as Shaq Fan's. |
Peter Vescey seems to have a 5% accuracy rate on his rumors.
Meaning for every 20 rumors he puts out... there's at least 1 that comes true.
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JSM
Clublakers Site Manager
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| mojoballer wrote: |
If we get another player (Dixon, Blatche, Blake) - I LIKE THIS TRADE.
It's funny how so many of you like to bash Caron and says he sucks and doesn't play any D - then turn around and say he's too VALUABLE when we offer him in a trade. |
Caron would be a perfect fit for the Suns. He is all offense and no defense. His D is horrible, but his offense alone is worth more than Kwame. He is valuable, because he is still labeled with the "P" (potential) word and has a contract that is coming to an end.
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mojoballer
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 1848
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| jsm0331 wrote: |
| Caron would be a perfect fit for the Suns. He is all offense and no defense. His D is horrible, but his offense alone is worth more than Kwame. |
It's hard to say. When Caron was with the Heat, I thought his D was decent. Based on last year, the whole teams D sucked - including Kobe's. And since we know Kobe was a perennial first team ALL-D selection, it's hard to judge Caron when the whole team had no defensive concept.
| jsm0331 wrote: |
| He is valuable, because he is still labeled with the "P" (potential) word and has a contract that is coming to an end. |
Yeah, but you could say the same thing about Kwame. I think Kwame has as much potential as Caron - and since his potential comes in a 7 foot package, I think it's a little more valuable. |
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Frank The Tank
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
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Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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I really find it hard to believe that Mitch would actually make this trade. He has been working so hard to get as much value as he can for Caron i dont think hes just gonna throw him away for kwame Brown. Thats a bad move. I mean look at what the other teams are offering compaired to us. James Posey? I think this might just be Mitch trying to light a fire under other teams that might be interested in Caron to make them give us what we want.
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mojoballer
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Lakerman91 wrote: |
| I really find it hard to believe that Mitch would actually make this trade. He has been working so hard to get as much value as he can for Caron i dont think hes just gonna throw him away for kwame Brown. Thats a bad move. I mean look at what the other teams are offering compaired to us. James Posey? I think this might just be Mitch trying to light a fire under other teams that might be interested in Caron to make them give us what we want. |
Yeah, seeing what the other teams offered makes me think that Caron and Kwame are only the centerpieces. There would HAVE to be more added on Washington's side to even out the trade.
Still think it's a good trade though - depending on who else is involved. |
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Jordan-esque
Joined: 28 May 2004
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Location: So Cal in Sept
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Lakerman91 wrote: |
| I really find it hard to believe that Mitch would actually make this trade. He has been working so hard to get as much value as he can for Caron i dont think hes just gonna throw him away for kwame Brown. Thats a bad move. I mean look at what the other teams are offering compaired to us. James Posey? I think this might just be Mitch trying to light a fire under other teams that might be interested in Caron to make them give us what we want. |
Agreed.
You could practically say that we basically went from trading...
Caron Butler for Carlos Boozer
to
Caron Butler for Kwame Brown
That's just a huge, huge drop - a big downgrade. LIke I said Washington better have another player they'd package with Kwame before Mitch (I hope) even pulls this deal.
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GCMD
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 11124
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| abeer3 wrote: |
| i'm warming to this idea as i think about it. washington would have to add another player of some value, though, i'd like jarvis hayes, dixon, or even steve blake. i think they might be willing to give up at least one of those in addition to kwame for butler and vlade's contract. |
I keep thinking Dixon would like to come to LAL...as a backup PG, he'd be great because he's a good defender, good shooter and he's quick...
Caron/Vlade/Chucky for Kwame/Dixon
They get their SG/SF...we get our PF/C...we both exchange backup PGs...throw in Vlade (or not) to sign these guys to ok salaries...
WAS would likely add a future pick for the buyout from Vlade...
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GCMD
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Lakerman91 wrote: |
| I really find it hard to believe that Mitch would actually make this trade. He has been working so hard to get as much value as he can for Caron i dont think hes just gonna throw him away for kwame Brown. Thats a bad move. I mean look at what the other teams are offering compaired to us. James Posey? I think this might just be Mitch trying to light a fire under other teams that might be interested in Caron to make them give us what we want. |
That's highly possible...Kwame is probably the contingent plan which is why it's such public knowledge....
Not a bad plan B...
I see this as one of those plans that clears roster spots as an added incentive...
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trips
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 1822
Location: Puerto Rico via Conn
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Obviously whatever laker's management had in mind ain't going through,
so now they resort to their back-up plans which are probably being written along the way.
Caron 4 Kwame? I'm game.
But only if we get something more in return
Also just a thought but this might keep daniels off their wishlist, since they lost hughes; they would play butler as 2-guard if this trade went down and not pursue AD. |
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Savage1
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 1506
Location: NY
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| mojoballer wrote: |
If we get another player (Dixon, Blatche, Blake) - I LIKE THIS TRADE.
It's funny how so many of you like to bash Caron and says he sucks and doesn't play any D - then turn around and say he's too VALUABLE when we offer him in a trade.
Personally, I've never thought Caron's D was ever that bad. The whole TEAM'S D was bad, so it was hard to pass judgement on him based on last year. I actually like Caron a lot.
But decent SF's are a dime a dozen. Caron will never become a superstar. He might become a VERY good SF. Those are available in the draft every year. Look at this year, Granger at 17, Green at 18. And those two could eventually be better than Caron.
Big's are rare. When you have a chance to get a young big with potential for a guy you're PROJECTING TO COME OFF YOUR BENCH - you gotta do it.
As for saving Caron for other big man trades - what other trades are there? Everyone keeps saying Magloire, but is that realistic? That's prob as realistic as the Bender trade was. |
Very well put!
Good point about small forwards being a dime a dozen.
The part about Magloire...I haven't seen a real rumor about the Lakers being involved, although they should be if they aren't. It seemed to start with the talk of Magloire to the Raps for the 2 picks. Kwame is more of a risk than Magloire but with the money that we have to offer, we have to take a risk and Kwame's as good as any. |
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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i'd do it... face it if we keep caron he's probably gonna hurt our cap situation cuz teams will throw their cap space at him next summer. im pretty sure mitch and buss wont want to hinder their chances of landing an all-star caliber player to waste on a backup small forward like caron... i like caron and i'd defend his playing abilities to the end, but....
kawme, no matter what kind of stats he put up in WAS the kid is 7' 260lbs. that would leave us with 3 7 footers... in a deep big man rotation we'd have the size that we need to compete in this league... 3 big ahletic big men... yes caron can score and possibly one day defend, but... how much is it going to cost us?
we can get more size and probably some quality defesnse out of this deal. we'd also be able to remove some of our dead weight.. and we'd still have the MLE and the LLE to get some better players, after its all said and done.
i say pull the trigger.
only reason i see us keeping caron is to sign him for a big contract and trade him for a better player next summer, we'll just have to see what happens in the next 3 months. |
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LakerLove
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 37
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| long time lurkerr....first post, allthough i feel caron is an asset to our team, i feel he might demand too much money. even though hes friends with kobe as all of you know money can break friendships. i think kwame needs a second chance and has potential for the future under phils toolage, allthough i wouldnt do this deal straight up. if we get something else with him i pull the trigger. |
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| all year we have said Chucky would be great off the bench. So would caron. The teams with legit guys coming off bench are the guys that win.. Period. .........I said period. |
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mojoballer
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 1848
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| wingnut wrote: |
| all year we have said Chucky would be great off the bench. So would caron. The teams with legit guys coming off bench are the guys that win.. Period. .........I said period. |
Agreed. As much as I hate Chucky as our starting PG, I've always thought he would be great as in instant offense bench guy.
But if we're all enamored with Caron's potential, what about Kwame's potential?
If both are equal, I'd take the 7 footer with potential. |
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jminges
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Posts: 6062
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ONLY IF WE GET A FIRST ROUND PICK AND THEY TAKE GRANT'S CONTRACT |
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GCMD
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 11124
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| wingnut wrote: |
| all year we have said Chucky would be great off the bench. So would caron. The teams with legit guys coming off bench are the guys that win.. Period. .........I said period. |
Those teams usually have a solid starting rotation TOO...something we don't have at this point...
You can get by with specialists coming off the bench but you can't expect to win without a starter quality player at 1 or 2 positions...
Fill in starters, then worry about the bench...
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