skyblog: 8 Questions

Postby D Nice on Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:51 pm

Sky wrote:D Nice - The issue with Marion is he's only worth dealing for if you are going to sign him to an extension. Problem there is Marion wants a long term max extension which then interferes with the 2010 cap room safety net. As a result, no Marion.

Marion's game fits beautifully. Marion's extension blows up all of their cap room plans. They aren't going to sacrifice the cap room safety net because Kobe can opt out in summer 2009 and then they are left with no marquee, fiscal disaster for LA. They won't give up their best chance to get a marquee player to replace Kobe. 2010 cap room is an absolute. Any trade that interferes with that dies.
Ah, I see. If Kobe decides to stay if he gets enough help (which would take the team telling him what deals they could pull off if they had his word), then would it be more possible? I think Marion's Max request is just pushing the envelope to get out of Phoenix, I could see him coming to us for 15-16mil per year, which is still more than the 12-mil starting contract he'd get as an unrestricted FA.

If not, then Odom/Kwame/1st for JO is our best bet?
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Postby L4L on Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:53 pm

I don't think JO is an option anymore. They'd want either Critt or Bynum, and apparently, both are off limits. In addition, I think the Lakers have officially decided against his injury risk.
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Postby D Nice on Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:04 pm

L4L wrote:I don't think JO is an option anymore. They'd want either Critt or Bynum, and apparently, both are off limits. In addition, I think the Lakers have officially decided against his injury risk.
Perhaps Odom and Farmar would get it done, I know plenty of Pacer fans who would do the deal.

And something need to be done, we can't do anything significant while Odom is here. Us not making a move that could make us contenders because of what Kobe could do 2 years from now is EXACTLY the damn reason he wants out.
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Postby L4L on Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:06 pm

They go from Bynum AND Odom to Farmar and Odom? I don't think so. There is no reason to trade him when his value is lowest.

I don't disagree that a move needs to be made, but the FO has more trust in Bynum than you or me. Also, I'm rather convinced the FO does not believe JO is the right guy.
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Postby D Nice on Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:09 pm

L4L wrote:They go from Bynum AND Odom to Farmar and Odom? I don't think so. There is no reason to trade him when his value is lowest.

I don't disagree that a move needs to be made, but the FO has more trust in Bynum than you or me. Also, I'm rather convinced the FO does not believe JO is the right guy.
I don't know if you've been monitoring the pacers situation or what, but he has looked horrible, like a shade of his former self. The team, especially offensively, is visibly better without him, to the point where they beat elite western conference teams like the mavs without him and put up stinkers with him. He doesn't fit the direction the coach is taking the team, where Odom does.

I seriously think an Odom/Farmar deal would give them significant pause, and IMO they'd take it. I'm not sure I'D surrender Farmar's playmaking like that without being absolutely sure Critt could provide a similar boost for 20+ mpg. And honestly, I think we could get him for Odom, Brown, Sasha, and picks if he continues to stink it up AND asks for out.
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Postby L4L on Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:22 pm

Yes, I've been monitoring the Pacer situation quite closely...

indy_dave06 wrote:Pacer management currently is not even considering trying to trade Jermaine. Thru the first 13 games the Pacers are 6-7 , they have already played 6 sets of games on back to back nights.

As such practice time and recovery time between games has been limited. Management thought is JO has struggled due to those factors. The back to backs have not allowed his knee sufficent rest before the next game.

Remember too the Pacers have a new coach, new system and 5 new players , they want to see how the team jells with more time to adjust.

Again this week they start a west coast trip with back to backs in Dever and Portland on Tues. and Wed.

Since the Lakers games , the Pacers have beaten the Hornets and Mavericks (without Jermaine) causing management to be a little more patient on making moves. Ike Diogu is now starting to walk without his post/op boot and may start practicing in 10 days. He was off to a good start 13.7 ppg in the first 3 games.

So things may be starting to turn if O'Neal and Diogu can come back at near 100% in the next couple weeks.
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Re: skyblog: 8 Questions

Postby thewill on Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:31 pm

Sky wrote:
8. Which Heroes die in the Volume 2 finale on Monday?

My money is on Niki and Maya, with Molly as a darkhorse. Nathan will no doubt be tied to a cliffhanger into Volume 3.


I bet it'll be Kensei and Maya.

Why hasn't anyone mentioned Luol Deng? Satisfy Kobe by making Deng a Laker. Maybe Odom can be the Bull's answer for a post player.
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Postby ElginTheGreat on Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:20 am

No way should they kill off Maya. She's the hottest girl on the show....
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Postby bumrusherer on Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:30 am

ElginTheGreat wrote:No way should they kill off Maya. She's the hottest girl on the show....

No way..she is far too dramatic.

''Alejandro, I cant find the soap...ahhhh my life is over, I'm the devil'' blah blah blah.

None of the Heroes chick are that hot. Which is good because it puts focus on the substance.
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Postby ElginTheGreat on Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:57 am

bumrusherer wrote:
ElginTheGreat wrote:No way should they kill off Maya. She's the hottest girl on the show....

No way..she is far too dramatic.

''Alejandro, I cant find the soap...ahhhh my life is over, I'm the devil'' blah blah blah.

None of the Heroes chick are that hot. Which is good because it puts focus on the substance.


I respectfully disagree... :mhihi:
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Postby D Nice on Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:43 am

Sky wrote:Significantly more money elsewhere? Ariza is a defensive specialist. That doesn't get paid well unfortunately.

I just don't see the Lakers dealing Odom for last years unless Brand gives them the go ahead through his agent or in conversation with Kobe.

Unlike you and I, LA is still under the belief that the kids are growing up fast enough to take Kobe and the Jets to contention near term. As a result they don't jettison Odom for cap room.
If that's true, why not jettison him for impact (like Marion), and worry about the consequences (09 offseason) when they arrive. Marion isn't the worst guy to pay 15+ million per year to, and we'd have

Farmar, Critt, Marion, Turiaf, Bynum, whatever Kobe yields as our core if he decides to bol. I take that.
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Postby Sky on Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:28 am

Simple. Phoenix has been trying to deal Marion for two years with no takers. If people won't deal for him with his current contract at this age, who would deal for him after a max extension two years from now? Noooooobody.

The Lakers will want a guarantee that they have that 2010 cap space safety net. Without it they can lose Kobe and have no means for replacing him with another superstar. Dealing for Marion makes it unlikely they have any cap room in 2010. No safety net. No Kobe replacement. Therefore, no Marion.
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Re: skyblog: 8 Questions

Postby gng930 on Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:04 pm

crucifixion wrote:
Sky wrote:One thing to keep in mind with Odom is that he’s still not up to 100% game shape yet. Give him to mid-December and maybe his game will have taken the next step to deliver as 2nd option.

Another aspect to remember is that Odom’s contract runs out in 2009 and the Lakers may be counting on that for payroll management and to have cap space in summer 2009 or 2010.


Sky, this is my biggest fear. Tell me what you think the probabilty of this scenario:

Lakers keep Odom, let him expire in 2009. Kobe doesn't get traded. Come summer of 2009, Lakers are thinking Kobe opts out. Kobe says he wants time to think about what he should do, so a month of FA goes by and Kobe still hasn't opted out.

In the meantime, Odom expired, and Odom takes a deal, even if its MLE its probably starting around $6M/year, so Odom is gone.

Then Kobe decides NOT to opt out. Publicly will say he loves the Lakers blah blah, but privately its because no one can pay him $20M/yr for the rest of his life like the Lakers can.

So Kobe stays a Laker and with Vlad, Luke, Bynums extension, Farmar, Critt, Ronny, etc all deals and Kobe means Lakers basically only have MLE to spend, and again, their 'cap plan' fails and no marquee player comes...AGAIN


Options must be exercised before July.
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Postby cthroatgtr on Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:10 pm

Sky what about a lower profile trade of Lamar. I think Jared Jefferies from NY could be an interesting fit for the Lakers but they would have to take back another player as well. Jefferies is a defensive minded 3/4 that has a reasonable salary. Downside maybe taking back a player like QRich or Malik Rose, but it isn't as if the Lakers will miss Lamar's scoring which is hot/cold and they could replace it with some defense. There aren't a lot of likely destinations for Lamar's bloated contract, at least involving teams with equal pieces to send back.
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Postby D Nice on Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:20 pm

So Sky, if we are honestly that high on Critter, what are the chances Farmar is moved this summer? If JO regains form and Indy holds out on a deal until summer, for example, could you see Farmar, Mihm, and Odom for JO?
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Postby Radner on Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:56 pm

There are only four teams that I think we could trade Odom to.

Note:All of the players which the Lakers acquire have less than two years left

1. Atlanta Hawks

Hawks Receive: Lamar Oodom and 2nd Rounder

Lakers Receive: Josh Childress, Zaza Pachulia (contract expires in 2009, same year as Odom), and Lorenzen Wright


2. Golden State Warriors

Warriors Receive: Lamar Odom, Chris Mihm and 2nd Rounder

Lakers Receive: Al Harrington and Patrick O'Bryant


3. Indiana Pacers

Pacers Receive: Lamar Odom and Sasha Vujacic

Lakers Receive: Marquis Daniels and Jeff Foster (Rebounder and defensive presence at the power forward spot)


4. Seattle Sonics

Sonics Receive: Lamar Odom, Chris Mihm or Sasha Vujacic, and 1st Rounder

Lakers Receive: Chris Wilcox and Kurt Thomas
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Re: skyblog: 8 Questions

Postby halekulani on Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:02 pm

Sky wrote:3. Speaking of Crittenton, why isn’t he getting minutes?

Rumor has it Critt is being hidden to keep him out of trade talks. The more tangible reason is he needs to bulk up. His upper body isn’t ready for prime time yet. Add NBA level power to his speed then Crittenton will be a force.

whaaat? :man4:
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Postby Laker's Fan on Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:11 pm

Lakers need a hail marry for Brand-

Lakers
Odom/Radmanovic for Jamison/O Harrington

Harrington is filler. Jamison is as soft on defense as Odom but is an elite scorer that can be a true second option. More importantly, as long as Mihm opts out, it leaves the Lakers with roughly $15 million in cap space to go after Brand or Oneal (assuming a cap of $56.5 million cap, the 150% place holder for Ronny, rookie min placeholders for the 4 empty roster spots and assuming we trade our first rounder for a future first). Once could hope that Sterling would be unwilling to beat a 5 year $87 million offer to Brand coming off a serious injury for a team that won't make the playoffs unless they also pay Maggettee (even then maybe). If Mihm doesn't opt out we could pay $100k over his salary to move him to a team with cap space.

Washington
Jamison/Songaila for Odom/Radmanovic

Radman's salary footprint is slightly bigger than Songaila's but not having to max out Arenas and extend Jamison in the same year is desireable. Having Odom for a second year allows them to develop Blatch and Young and see if they want to pay big for that slot. radman could see minutes at SF and PF in their offense. Mitch is friends with their GM.

Charlotte
Harrington for Songaila

Vincente has been clamoring for another big all season and having Songaila helps (marginally) in their negotiations with Okafor next year. It is a major stretch to believe Johnson would fork over the $ to cover Songaila's 4 year deal but stranger things have happened.

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Re: skyblog: 8 Questions

Postby jlkr on Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:18 pm

gng930 wrote:
crucifixion wrote:
Sky wrote:One thing to keep in mind with Odom is that he’s still not up to 100% game shape yet. Give him to mid-December and maybe his game will have taken the next step to deliver as 2nd option.

Another aspect to remember is that Odom’s contract runs out in 2009 and the Lakers may be counting on that for payroll management and to have cap space in summer 2009 or 2010.


Sky, this is my biggest fear. Tell me what you think the probabilty of this scenario:

Lakers keep Odom, let him expire in 2009. Kobe doesn't get traded. Come summer of 2009, Lakers are thinking Kobe opts out. Kobe says he wants time to think about what he should do, so a month of FA goes by and Kobe still hasn't opted out.

In the meantime, Odom expired, and Odom takes a deal, even if its MLE its probably starting around $6M/year, so Odom is gone.

Then Kobe decides NOT to opt out. Publicly will say he loves the Lakers blah blah, but privately its because no one can pay him $20M/yr for the rest of his life like the Lakers can.

So Kobe stays a Laker and with Vlad, Luke, Bynums extension, Farmar, Critt, Ronny, etc all deals and Kobe means Lakers basically only have MLE to spend, and again, their 'cap plan' fails and no marquee player comes...AGAIN


Options must be exercised before July.

Player options must be exercised by July 1. That's after the draft, but before the FA signing period. So going into that FA signing period (in '09), the Lakers will know whether Kobe is in the house or not. The rest is cap management of the rest of the roster.
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Postby L4L on Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:37 am

Atlanta doesn't need another Forward to add to Smith and Marvin. They need a PG.

Seattle does not need Odom, and he does not fit into their plans. In order to send him there, it would need to be insane value for the Sonics.

Jeff Foster?

A trade with the Warriors is conceivable.
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Postby dino on Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:44 am

how much and how much longer is marion's deal?
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Postby Radner on Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:48 am

L4L wrote:Atlanta doesn't need another Forward to add to Smith and Marvin. They need a PG.


Speedy Claxton, Anthony Johnson, Acie Law, Tyronn Lue, and Salim Stoudamire? They don't need a point guard ; they need to unload their point guards.

L4L wrote:Seattle does not need Odom, and he does not fit into their plans. In order to send him there, it would need to be insane value for the Sonics.


They did not need Wally Szczerbiak but they attained him. This about taking money off the books. Also, Odom could be traded again for draft picks since the Sonics are clearly a lottery team (Odom's presence will be short in Seattle).

L4L wrote:Jeff Foster?


If Odom continues to play the way he is, this is what the Lakers' offers will come down to. As far as Foster goes, he's averaging about seven points and ten rebounds a game along with a somewhat good defensive game. He could start at the power forward spot, while Marquis backs up Kobe (Marquis is averaging about nine points a game).

L4L wrote:A trade with the Warriors is conceivable


I like this trade but the only problem is that Harrington is not necessarily a defensive power forward. It's a good trade nonetheless.
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Postby L4L on Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:43 pm

JKsnoots wrote:Speedy Claxton, Anthony Johnson, Acie Law, Tyronn Lue, and Salim Stoudamire? They don't need a point guard ; they need to unload their point guards.

What do they all have in common? They are not good enough to be starters in this league. In the case of Claxton, he's always hurt.

There is no room for Odom on that roster. Period. Ask Atlanta fans if you wish. Marvin Williams and Josh Smith are the SF/PF tandem on that team, and it makes no sense for them to bring in a SF/PF to take away minutes from the development of Marvin. That would be like us bringing in another center ahead of Bynum.

They did not need Wally Szczerbiak but they attained him. This about taking money off the books. Also, Odom could be traded again for draft picks since the Sonics are clearly a lottery team (Odom's presence will be short in Seattle).

If they want to take money off the books, they'd go for expiring contracts that have no value as players. Bringing in a talented player who has value outside of his contract doesn't make sense for the Sonics.

If the sole idea is to trade him for draft picks, what makes you so certain that Kurt Thomas and Wilcox couldn't retrieve better picks? Teams have been reportedly exploring Thomas for expirings and a 1st. They have also been reported as exploring Thomas + Watson for relief. Chicago would most CERTAINLY give them the young players/picks for Wilcox. Why not cut LAL out of the deal completely?

If Odom continues to play the way he is, this is what the Lakers' offers will come down to. As far as Foster goes, he's averaging about seven points and ten rebounds a game along with a somewhat good defensive game. He could start at the power forward spot, while Marquis backs up Kobe (Marquis is averaging about nine points a game).

Foster shoots about 40% on his jumpers.. It would be interesting to say the least to put him at PF. Much like Kwame, he's a good low post defender. Not exactly an anchor. Anyway you slice it, this isn't enough for value for LO, and I do not think this trade improves the team. I think we get worse.

I like this trade but the only problem is that Harrington is not necessarily a defensive power forward. It's a good trade nonetheless.

From what I've heard out of GS, they'd prefer:
Harrington, Pietrus, 1st for Odom
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Postby Radner on Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:37 pm

As far as the Atlanta situation, it's the same thing as Seattle. Odom is not going to be a mainstay and is probably going to be traded afterwards for picks. In a such case, if there is no room for Odom, I think we could see a multi team deal take place. I should have noted that before.

The necessity for another point guard in Atlanta does not make sense to me at all. Why in the world would Knight commit such an acquisition when he's already loaded with guards? It doesn't look like they're going to make the playoffs, so there's no urgency for a starting point guard. They can get one during the draft or trade for one in the summer.

The popular belief within Chicago is that they want Gasol not Wilcox. Gasol has the playoff experience and the presence to take the Bulls to the next level. Though Wilcox is a candidate, I doubt the Bulls are headed that direction. As far as Wilcox coming to the Lakers, I think we would have to update the trade by inserting Turiaf. Odom along with Mihm or Sasha and the 1st rounder will not get it done as stated before.

The Foster trade pretty much consist of the same issue. As of right now, if Odom does not improve his game, he will most likely be had for cheap. I agree with you that this trade won't help us but realistically this is one of the few options that presents itself.

The Harrington trade, in my opinion, is somewhat exaggerated. I don't think they're willing to give us Harrington, Pietrus, and a 1st rounder for Odom. It would have been done already without any regrets. Like I said before, if Odom continues to play horribly, we are not getting anything that helps the ballclub.
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Postby L4L on Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:50 pm

JKsnoots wrote:As far as the Atlanta situation, it's the same thing as Seattle. Odom is not going to be a mainstay and is probably going to be traded afterwards for picks. In a such case, if there is no room for Odom, I think we could see a multi team deal take place. I should have noted that before.

Odom to ATL doesn't make sense for the Hawks. They can get better picks for the younger guys. They aren't going to trade for a player only to trade him for picks. They aren't going to trade for a player that takes away time from developing their young top 5 pick. They aren't going to trade for a player that plays the same position as two of their core pieces. If the problem is salary, they can get expirings contracts, and not have to give up NEARLY as much value. In addition, Odom hurts their ability to resign Smith because of his large 13,000,000 due next year. Remember, Atlanta does not want to spend large amounts of money.

As far as a multi-team deal, maybe, but who, what, and why?

The necessity for another point guard in Atlanta does not make sense to me at all. Why in the world would Knight commit such an acquisition when he's already loaded with guards? It doesn't look like they're going to make the playoffs, so there's no urgency for a starting point guard. They can get one during the draft or trade for one in the summer.

You're still seeing it as another PG. They still need a STARTING PG. As far as getting one during the draft, they have their PG of the future. They need a PG for now. They aren't that far away from being a playoff team.

The popular belief within Chicago is that they want Gasol not Wilcox. Gasol has the playoff experience and the presence to take the Bulls to the next level. Though Wilcox is a candidate, I doubt the Bulls are headed that direction. As far as Wilcox coming to the Lakers, I think we would have to update the trade by inserting Turiaf. Odom along with Mihm or Sasha and the 1st rounder will not get it done.

I'm aware of that, but if Gasol fails, or if Seattle is going to trade Wilcox for cheap, then Chicago can offer a much better deal than anything we are going to offer. You're assuming that teams will trade Odom for picks. You're assuming that we can't get good value for Odom. If that's the case, why don't these teams simply cut LA out of the deal, and use their higher valued pieces to get better draft picks? Seattle doesn't want Odom for any reason. They don't need another ball dominant player to take away touches from Green and Durant. They want to accelerate those players development not hinder it.

The Foster trade pretty much consist of the same issue. As of right now, if Odom does not improve his game, he will most likely be had for cheap. I agree with you that this trade won't help us but realistically this is one of the few options that presents itself.

I agree. That's why we don't move Odom.

The Harrington trade, in my opinion, is somewhat exaggerated. I don't think they're willing to give us Harrington, Pietrus, and a 1st rounder for Odom. It would have been done already without any regrets. Like I said before, if Odom continues to play horribly, we are not getting anything that helps the ballclub.

Hey, this is coming from Golden State. It could be that their fans are undervaluing their own pieces. I don't know.

However, I have seen several knowledgable Golden State fans suggest these two trades at realgm.com:
A) Harrington, Pietrus, Ellis for Odom, Crittenton, 1st
or
B) Harrington, Pietrus, 1st for Odom

As far as B, one guy could be quoted as saying, "At the most, we'd give Harrington, Pietrus, and a 1st."

There is a widespread belief in GS that Odom would be fantastic in their system.
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