Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Juronimo on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:07 am

If we had Nash from 2007 or if we didn't get Sterned I don't think Kobe would have any issues deferring.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:13 am

These are great questions you ask, Punk. I've thought about what you had written, and I had the same thoughts/questions. Kobe is a great player, and I believe can adapt to playing off the ball given the teams personnel and if it best suits the team. This year, when healthy, it was best suited for Kobe to handle the facilitating responsibilities.

As others have so astutely pointed out, Nash is best in a offense with fast, athletic wings/shooters that have better spacing within their offense that constantly move off the ball and set good screens for Nash; ultimately, Nash thrives in a system of that nature. This is not how this roster is constructed. We're the antithesis of what Nash is used to playing with; old, slow, don't move off the ball, can't shoot, etc.

Offensively speaking, in order for Kobe & Nash to work, another starting SG, obviously; we need more shooters & youth. That's all been discussed ad nauseum. Nash & Kobe can still work, IMO. There needs to be changes within this personnel & this roster for that to happen, though.

Where we have more of an issue is defensively speaking. Kobe is older, and while he played great defense at times this year, he was at best inconsistent. Nash, while decent in a team concept is still a liability. When you add an older MWP who's feet are stuck in cement, and an old slow Pau, you have issues defensively. In order for this to ultimately work on both ends of the court, we need to address our needs at SF, PF, with more defensive-minded pieces, IMO>
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Punk-101 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:16 am

Lowry+Derozen
Nelson+Afflalo
Holiday+Turner
Lillard+Batum
Dragic+Beasely
Irving+Gee

Not saying any of those are remotely realistic. Just something like that, eh?
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby gcclaker on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:20 am

^On the OTHER side of the coin, those SAME fast, athletic wings/shooters can cover for Nash defensively. It will also restrict possibilities of placing Howard in foul trouble because he has to help. It keeps 24 from roaming too. World Peace is game but isn't as mobile. Gasol is just glacially slow... Defensive rotations are constantly compromised.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:22 am

gcclaker wrote:^On the OTHER side of the coin, those SAME fast, athletic wings/shooters can cover for Nash defensively. It will also restrict possibilities of placing Howard in foul trouble because he has to help. It keeps 24 from roaming too. World Peace is game but isn't as mobile. Gasol is just glacially slow... Defensive rotations are constantly compromised.


Exactly. That was my point entirely. The old cliche; defense wins championships. We have a centerpiece in Dwight; we need other pieces that fit defensively to have a chance against the elite teams, IMO.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Chillbongo on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:26 am

Lowry + Derozan is interesting and potentially feasible. They'd have to have cap space to make it work.

Toronto could be interested. Nash + Pau for Lowry & Derozan. Don't know why they would want to get that old. But a Nash/Gasol/Gay/Bargnani lineup can't do any worse than they have this year. Plus Pau comes off the books after a year. Interesting...

gcc, I like Wilson Chandler and especially Granger, but his knees have me worried. I'm thinking Chandler stays with the Nuggets now, given Gallinari's injury.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:31 am

It's been a concern for years and the explanation was that he never had a true point guard. Well, we have/had one now in Nash and he still could not play off ball.

So the short answer is NO, probably not. The concerns have been and continue to be valid that Kobe needs the ball to be effective and motivated.

There is no evidence to suggest that he can play off ball with a true PG, there is only evidence to suggest he cannot.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby gcclaker on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:34 am

Chillbongo wrote:Lowry + Derozan is interesting and potentially feasible. They'd have to have cap space to make it work.

Toronto could be interested. Nash + Pau for Lowry & Derozan. Don't know why they would want to get that old. But a Nash/Gasol/Gay/Bargnani lineup can't do any worse than they have this year. Plus Pau comes off the books after a year. Interesting...

gcc, I like Wilson Chandler and especially Granger, but his knees have me worried. I'm thinking Chandler stays with the Nuggets now, given Gallinari's injury.

Yep Chill...I think therealdeal suggested Chandler which I am on board with. I am also concerned with Granger's knees since the Pacers were shopping him prior to the season and during the trade deadline. I would also accept Landry Fields given that Gay is taking the lion's minutes at the 3 in Toronto.

As a backup or replacement for Nash, I suggested Eric Bledsoe who seems to be itching for a bigger role than what he is getting across the hall. Love that kid's game. Fearless...a tough customer.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Chillbongo on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:45 am

^I'll take Bledsoe as a backup in a heartbeat. He rips defenses apart. We might afford keeping Nash at that point as well. I think Bledsoe's on the books for around $2-3M which is amazing.

The Clippers probably want to move him. Who would they want? Earl Clark?
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Punk-101 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:47 am

Chillbongo wrote:^I'll take Bledsoe as a backup in a heartbeat. He rips defenses apart. We might afford keeping Nash at that point as well. I think Bledsoe's on the books for around $2-3M which is amazing.

The Clippers probably want to move him. Who would they want? Earl Clark?

Steve Blake's expiring contract. He's a former clipper and a capable backup. Wishful thinking?
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby gcclaker on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:53 am

Chillbongo wrote:^I'll take Bledsoe as a backup in a heartbeat. He rips defenses apart. We might afford keeping Nash at that point as well. I think Bledsoe's on the books for around $2-3M which is amazing.

The Clippers probably want to move him. Who would they want? Earl Clark?

They did try including him in a package with Butler [?] for Kevin Garnett. I don't know if they would even want Clark or the Lakers would part with him being desperate for youth. Clippers have Odom, Barnes, Butler on their frontcourt albeit all long in the tooth but capable in short stints.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Chillbongo on Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:38 pm

True that, but Barnes and Odom are off the books next year. Don't know why they wouldn't bring Barnes back but Odom made $8M this year. They need a bit more cap room to give CP3 the max?

If we could move Blake for Bledsoe that'd be another magic wand for Mitch. Billups is off the books so who knows how that pans out. The depth on that team is ridiculous, I can't even think of where they need more depth. Maybe center, in that case it's not like we can help.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby therealdeal on Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:58 pm

1. Yes, Wilson Chandler is very high on my wishlist. He came back from his injuries and is looking VERY solid.

2. Bledsoe is pipe dream at it's very greatest. We've got no chance at him in a trade because we have nothing that the Clippers want. Not to mention the Clippers have vowed never to trade with us. We could try to wait until he's available in 2015, but that's far too long from now.

3. Everything I've read indicates that Toronto kind of likes their Derozan/Gay duo and they want to stick to it. If you're trading with them, you're probably looking at Bargnani coming back along with whoever you want to actually get (Lowry is a longshot).
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby D.B. Cooper on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:16 pm

Juronimo wrote:If we had Nash from 2007 or if we didn't get Sterned I don't think Kobe would have any issues deferring.

This, as long as we win.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:21 pm

D.B. Cooper wrote:
Juronimo wrote:If we had Nash from 2007 or if we didn't get Sterned I don't think Kobe would have any issues deferring.

This, as long as we win.


Except, he's never shown a strong willingness to play off ball. Ever. So outside of optimism, I don't see how one could possibly conclude he wouldn't have issues deferring, when he's had nothing but issues deferring.

To the point where, he'd rather not even play in the league anymore than have to defer.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:24 pm

Punk-101 wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:Kobe dominating the ball isn't directly related to who we have playing PG IMO.... it's more a product of the fact we have only one player on the roster that can create his own shot. Solve that with a SF that can score and create and he will BE ABLE to play off the ball.


TIME wrote:The failure of the Nash experiment was not because Kobe could not / would not relinquish the ball. It was because of how the rest of the team was constructed. If we replace Gasol, MWP, and Meeks with a true stretch 4, a starting SF that can consistently hit a 3, and a more consistent bench swing who can shoot the 3, then Nash would have been fine as long as he was healthy.

The problem is that without shooters, the PG has to be able to do one of two things every time down the court; either create his own shot or break down the D so he can get D12 a decent look. At Nash's age that was asking too much. So, by default, Kobe was the only one that could do those two things every time down. Replace Nash with Kyrie or Steph, or CP3, etc. and Kobe would have zero issue fitting with their game.


I think these two responses are the most intriguing insights. (I hope they complement eachother, as why I lumped them together)

EDIT: gcc's right ^^^there is great too and in the same vein

Since a starting SF and a healthy Nash or a starting PG are the necessary cogs, on which would either of you place your chips, (assuming best possible scenarios for gasol trade, blake trade, and either amnesty or opt-out&resign Metta) under the mindset that the FO is willing to do all within reason to milk Kobe's last few years? (Yes, I know the death tax thing, Roos :man12: )

Would you place your chips with the best possible SF and roll the dice with Nash being healthy enough to start? Or do you place your chips with the best possible PG, an adequate SF, and run Nash as backup PG? I know neither may be likely, so just humor me with the hypothetical of bext case scenario of what ideally should be done.


I'd be OK with Nash if we got a serious upgrade at the 3 and a score first wing player off the bench. Howard needs some specific things to happen to be an offensive force. He needs chaos in the lane.... the threat of someone making a 3.... and good players to cut off his and the PG's action.

Not knowing the contract status or even if it's plausible anymore but someone like Danny Granger would be perfect at the 3 IMO.... if we could get a scorer off the bench as well I'd be ecstatic.... Trade Pau for that and go with Hill/Clark at the 4. Would have to get a back-up Center somewhere..... Resign Blake to backup Nash.

The other option with our tax issues (NBA and inheritance) would be to blow it up entirely and find young players from contending teams that might want MWP, Nash and Pau..... That would be the end of the Kobe quest for 6 however.....
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Chillbongo on Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:55 pm

^You really think that would end the quest for #6? I don't see why it would.

We'd have Kobe and Dwight. Moving Nash/MWP/Pau is moving 3 starters....we'd have to get 3 starters in return. Two of those guys expire, so it's not like those teams are doing a total favor to us, they get something out of it as well. If we move them to teams with cap space, we can take back less salary.

Assuming we do, we have a little extra cash to spend on a bench. We still have Clark, Meeks, Blake, G-lock, and we could nab another bench guard and bench forward.

If Mitch does his job, that team could be a contender with Kobe Bryant back and Dwight 100%
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby therealdeal on Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:02 pm

Rooscooter wrote:I'd be OK with Nash if we got a serious upgrade at the 3 and a score first wing player off the bench. Howard needs some specific things to happen to be an offensive force. He needs chaos in the lane.... the threat of someone making a 3.... and good players to cut off his and the PG's action.

Not knowing the contract status or even if it's plausible anymore but someone like Danny Granger would be perfect at the 3 IMO.... if we could get a scorer off the bench as well I'd be ecstatic.... Trade Pau for that and go with Hill/Clark at the 4. Would have to get a back-up Center somewhere..... Resign Blake to backup Nash.

The other option with our tax issues (NBA and inheritance) would be to blow it up entirely and find young players from contending teams that might want MWP, Nash and Pau..... That would be the end of the Kobe quest for 6 however.....

I would immediately agree with you... But Granger's knees are a concern. Danny expires next season at just over 14 million per year... There's really only two shots at him: in a multi-team trade or if the Pacers really want to move forward with Gasol instead of West (West expires this season).

So even if his knees weren't a concern right now, getting to him might be a problem.

I do agree with the general premise though. Nash/Kobe/athletic wing/Hill or Clark/Howard is a good place to start. Throw in one or two players who can/want to score off the bench and I think we're cooking. Honestly I'd be okay with Blake/Jamison being the main two off the bench IF we could give them one more guy who can create a look for himself as well. Maybe a CDR fits in there.

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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby KBJelleyBean24 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:12 pm

I may be wrong on this, but wasn't Kobe playing off ball earlier in the season? Before we fired Brown I remember him playing much more efficiently in the Princeton because he would get the ball on the move and was able to score easily. Again I'm not exactly sure about it, but he was having one of his best starts ever, he was scoring well above 50% if i recall correctly.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Chillbongo on Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:15 pm

^ Yeah, he was shooting wayyy above 50% except for 2 games. But we were 6-6 during that time :bang:
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby KBJelleyBean24 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:21 pm

Chillbongo wrote:^ Yeah, he was shooting wayyy above 50% except for 2 games. But we were 6-6 during that time :bang:

But I think he proved to be able to play off ball and in fact be even more efficient. The fact that the Princeton was a failure didn't have anything to do with Kobe playing off ball, but more with the fact that it didn't fit the team as a whole. I think if we got a guard who isn't in the back end of his career (Nash, Fisher) and could be a starter, Kobe would welcome it with open arms.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Juronimo on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:27 pm

JGC wrote:
D.B. Cooper wrote:
Juronimo wrote:If we had Nash from 2007 or if we didn't get Sterned I don't think Kobe would have any issues deferring.

This, as long as we win.


Except, he's never shown a strong willingness to play off ball. Ever. So outside of optimism, I don't see how one could possibly conclude he wouldn't have issues deferring, when he's had nothing but issues deferring.

To the point where, he'd rather not even play in the league anymore than have to defer.


How many traditional point guards has Kobe played with?
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby trodgers on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:29 pm

JGC,

You say that there is "no evidence" that he can play off ball with a true PG. Let's set aside the thought that "not signing a true PG" is evidence that he can't play with one. Let's say it's evidence that management thought he couldn't - because that's what it is.

The closest thing he's had to a true PG are - Olympic play, All-Star Games, and early this season. It's fair to say that in all cases he modified his game. Either by taking the challenge defensively or working off ball. So, I think there's good evidence that he would be willing to adjust his game.

Now, you make the further claim that he would rather not play than play under those circumstances. He was in favor of bringing on Jason Kidd and CP3. Good evidence that he'd rather play with those guys than not at all. What's very clear is that there is no evidence at all that he would rather not play at all than play with a true PG. What MIGHT be true is that he would rather not play at all than suck on a losing team.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby 432J on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:08 pm

if this was 2005 nash then i'm sure kobe would play off the ball since nash was a monster back then, but this 2013 nash and he's much more effective as a spot up shooter than playing with the ball. let kobe do that since it's been effective
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:22 pm

trodgers wrote:JGC,

You say that there is "no evidence" that he can play off ball with a true PG. Let's set aside the thought that "not signing a true PG" is evidence that he can't play with one. Let's say it's evidence that management thought he couldn't - because that's what it is.


Well, in the NBA, Kobe's only ever played with three true PGs IMO. Payton, Sessions and Nash. He gets a pass IMO with Payton because we were running the tri, and, Payton was supposed to play more of the Fisher role anyway. Sessions, I also give him a pass because it was just a handful of games. With Nash, that's the only real 'evidence' that he is not willing to relinquish the ball. So there are 2 main reasons I don't think he can play with a ball dominant PG and they are because a) he's never really been given the opportunity to effectively play off ball in his career and b) the only time he has (albeit a limited time) he took the ball right back and dominated it.

It's like asking Steve Nash who has been a facilitator his whole life, to suddenly look to score. I don't think he's programmed to do it, wants to do it, or would be as good at it. Was he willing to try? Sure he was. But I don't think Nash liked it very much. Do you think he enjoyed his role overall this year? I don't.

trodgers wrote:The closest thing he's had to a true PG are - Olympic play, All-Star Games, and early this season. It's fair to say that in all cases he modified his game. Either by taking the challenge defensively or working off ball. So, I think there's good evidence that he would be willing to adjust his game.


Well, I'm not sure I would use those as examples. A lot of things happen there, that wouldn't carry over. For instance, Kobe played 20-something minutes and scored 9 pts in the ASG this year. Think he'd be willing to adjust to that? Me neither.

Do I think he can/will do it in spurts? Sure.

trodgers wrote:Now, you make the further claim that he would rather not play than play under those circumstances. He was in favor of bringing on Jason Kidd and CP3. Good evidence that he'd rather play with those guys than not at all. What's very clear is that there is no evidence at all that he would rather not play at all than play with a true PG. What MIGHT be true is that he would rather not play at all than suck on a losing team.


What I said was based on Kobe's comment about not wanting to play in this league averaging 18-19 points per game. He wants to be a top scorer. To be a top scorer you have to be ball dominant. If he relinquishes the ball to a TRUE point guard, he's going to drop in to that 18-19 PPG territory which he said he'd rather retire than be in.

That he was in favor of bringing in Jason Kidd and CP3 is only evidence that he'd like to play with those guys. It's not evidence that he'd relinquish the ball to or changing the pecking order for them.

You're right, there isn't evidence that he would rather not play at all than play with a true PG but he did say he would rather not stick around to average 19 PPG. So how do you imagine it would be possible, for him to relinquish the ball to a true PG who will look to create the best possible scoring option on nearly each and every play, and still get his 27-ish PPG? (Especially when a significant chunk of those 27 PPG scored each game come out of ISO). Any team with a TRUE PG will see greater distribution of the scoring across a greater number of players and so it would be difficult for anyone to average 27 PPG or more with a TRUE PG.
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