Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby trodgers on Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:46 pm

I don't think the claim is about stats though. It was in reference to PP; wasn't it? I think the claim was about diminished skills, and as he is now facing an uphill battle just to get back to the NBA, I think he'd change his mind.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:55 pm

Here is what he said, exactly.

"You think I'll hang around and average 19 points or 18 points? Hell no."
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby trodgers on Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:06 pm

I remember the quote. More recently, he has said that he'd be okay working to become a PG and try to lead the league in assists. So you could read that to mean that he's stat-obsessed. I tend to think it's about devoting himself to the game, whatever he's asked to do, and trying to win games that way.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Punk-101 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:32 pm

JGC wrote:Here is what he said, exactly.

"You think I'll hang around and average 19 points or 18 points? Hell no."

I don't remember the context of the question (the topic was retirement), but I think it was about his skills/body diminishing to the point that he would only be capable of 18-19ppg. Maybe he meant 18-19ppg PERIOD, regardless of the situation, but I don't think so. That's totally different than being capable of scoring 27ppg, but willing to sacrifice his game to score 18-19. I'm not going to make the leap that he WOULD sacrifice while still being capable, I just don't think the quote was about that is all I'm pointing out.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby cthroatgtr on Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:11 am

If Kobe ever plays with a good PG maybe we'll find out. Nash is a shell of himself and can no longer drive an offense solely on his own. Kobe had to become the defacto PG because Nash simply wasn't getting it done.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:14 am

trodgers wrote:JGC,

You say that there is "no evidence" that he can play off ball with a true PG. Let's set aside the thought that "not signing a true PG" is evidence that he can't play with one. Let's say it's evidence that management thought he couldn't - because that's what it is.

The closest thing he's had to a true PG are - Olympic play, All-Star Games, and early this season. It's fair to say that in all cases he modified his game. Either by taking the challenge defensively or working off ball. So, I think there's good evidence that he would be willing to adjust his game.

Now, you make the further claim that he would rather not play than play under those circumstances. He was in favor of bringing on Jason Kidd and CP3. Good evidence that he'd rather play with those guys than not at all. What's very clear is that there is no evidence at all that he would rather not play at all than play with a true PG. What MIGHT be true is that he would rather not play at all than suck on a losing team.

Thank You.

I cannot see how anyone who has ever watched Kobe play would contend as a matter of "fact" that he would be opposed to doing anything that makes the game easier for him. Ignoring the fact that Nash needs his bigs to actually set proper screens to be effective we still have seen Kobe willing to play off the ball with him. That so-called failure had more to do with Dwight and Nash than Kobe and Nash. unfortunately for us some "don't buy it" when it comes to being able to play together. Kobe is going to do what it takes to win even running himself into the ground because that is what Kobe does.... which is a fact.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:20 am

cthroatgtr wrote:If Kobe ever plays with a good PG maybe we'll find out. Nash is a shell of himself and can no longer drive an offense solely on his own. Kobe had to become the defacto PG because Nash simply wasn't getting it done.


The idea that Kobe HAD to become the defacto PG is, IMO, unfair. What was the reason he HAD to become the defacto PG? See, it's this type of thinking that partially leads me to conclude he can't play with a true PG because things will inevitably happen and invariably, he'll feel like he HAS to take over the ball.

Nash only played in 50 games. Of those 50 games that he played, how many would you say Kobe truly played "off ball" for the majority of the game and allowed Nash to lead the offense? The answer is not very many, if any at all.

I hope Kobe does eventually allow it to happen because it will extend his career and he can focus on doing what he does best which is scoring and he'll do it WITHIN a natural flow of an offense. But there just isn't any evidence he can be effective or even interested in deferring in the way that he'll need to, to play with a true PG. Part of that isn't his fault since he's never been given a chance to, and the other part is his 'fault' for lack of a better word because of his penchant for wanting to take over.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:22 am

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
trodgers wrote:JGC,

You say that there is "no evidence" that he can play off ball with a true PG. Let's set aside the thought that "not signing a true PG" is evidence that he can't play with one. Let's say it's evidence that management thought he couldn't - because that's what it is.

The closest thing he's had to a true PG are - Olympic play, All-Star Games, and early this season. It's fair to say that in all cases he modified his game. Either by taking the challenge defensively or working off ball. So, I think there's good evidence that he would be willing to adjust his game.

Now, you make the further claim that he would rather not play than play under those circumstances. He was in favor of bringing on Jason Kidd and CP3. Good evidence that he'd rather play with those guys than not at all. What's very clear is that there is no evidence at all that he would rather not play at all than play with a true PG. What MIGHT be true is that he would rather not play at all than suck on a losing team.

Thank You.

I cannot see how anyone who has ever watched Kobe play would contend as a matter of "fact" that he would be opposed to doing anything that makes the game easier for him. Ignoring the fact that Nash needs his bigs to actually set proper screens to be effective we still have seen Kobe willing to play off the ball with him. That so-called failure had more to do with Dwight and Nash than Kobe and Nash. unfortunately for us some "don't buy it" when it comes to being able to play together. Kobe is going to do what it takes to win even running himself into the ground because that is what Kobe does.... which is a fact.


I'm not sure how running himself in to the ground makes the game easier for him. How does that work, exactly?
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:24 am

trodgers wrote:I don't think the claim is about stats though. It was in reference to PP; wasn't it? I think the claim was about diminished skills, and as he is now facing an uphill battle just to get back to the NBA, I think he'd change his mind.


It was exactly about him simply hanging on playing with deminished skills. I guess when one is searching for something they can find anything. Kobe knows he would kill off the ball but this year, especially this year, he has had to do it all.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:28 am

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
trodgers wrote:I don't think the claim is about stats though. It was in reference to PP; wasn't it? I think the claim was about diminished skills, and as he is now facing an uphill battle just to get back to the NBA, I think he'd change his mind.


It was exactly about him simply hanging on playing with deminished skills. I guess when one is searching for something they can find anything. Kobe knows he would kill off the ball but this year, especially this year, he has had to do it all.


Well, you are right about finding anything when searching for something. You found a way to make...

You think I'll hang around and average 19 points or 18 points? Hell no.


... actually mean ...

You think I'll hang around and average 19 points or 18 points? Hell yes.


That is simply remarkable.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:32 am

JGC wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:
trodgers wrote:JGC,

You say that there is "no evidence" that he can play off ball with a true PG. Let's set aside the thought that "not signing a true PG" is evidence that he can't play with one. Let's say it's evidence that management thought he couldn't - because that's what it is.

The closest thing he's had to a true PG are - Olympic play, All-Star Games, and early this season. It's fair to say that in all cases he modified his game. Either by taking the challenge defensively or working off ball. So, I think there's good evidence that he would be willing to adjust his game.

Now, you make the further claim that he would rather not play than play under those circumstances. He was in favor of bringing on Jason Kidd and CP3. Good evidence that he'd rather play with those guys than not at all. What's very clear is that there is no evidence at all that he would rather not play at all than play with a true PG. What MIGHT be true is that he would rather not play at all than suck on a losing team.

Thank You.

I cannot see how anyone who has ever watched Kobe play would contend as a matter of "fact" that he would be opposed to doing anything that makes the game easier for him. Ignoring the fact that Nash needs his bigs to actually set proper screens to be effective we still have seen Kobe willing to play off the ball with him. That so-called failure had more to do with Dwight and Nash than Kobe and Nash. unfortunately for us some "don't buy it" when it comes to being able to play together. Kobe is going to do what it takes to win even running himself into the ground because that is what Kobe does.... which is a fact.


I'm not sure how running himself in to the ground makes the game easier for him. How does that work, exactly?

same ole tricks. my statement was "KOBE IS GOING TO DO WHAT IT TAKES TO WIN EVEN RUNNING HIMSELF INTO THE GROUND..." Of course just like the Kobe quote you try to twist it to appear cleaver. It isn't working. Kobe ran himself into the ground because he had too. Unlike armchair coaches who make wild "factual" (as they call it) claims about how he should play Kobe actually does it all to win. Again, anyone who watches the guy instead of looking solely to criticize him would KNOW that his game has evolved every year to make the game easier for him. Playing with a true PG that can create his own shot would do just that but you already knew that before your current "realism about Kobe" comments in here.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:36 am

JGC wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:
trodgers wrote:I don't think the claim is about stats though. It was in reference to PP; wasn't it? I think the claim was about diminished skills, and as he is now facing an uphill battle just to get back to the NBA, I think he'd change his mind.


It was exactly about him simply hanging on playing with deminished skills. I guess when one is searching for something they can find anything. Kobe knows he would kill off the ball but this year, especially this year, he has had to do it all.


Well, you are right about finding anything when searching for something. You found a way to make...

You think I'll hang around and average 19 points or 18 points? Hell no.


... actually mean ...

You think I'll hang around and average 19 points or 18 points? Hell yes.


That is simply remarkable.


Back to circles. At least you stick to your style. No, I didn't make it do any of that. I, unlike you apparently, remember the CONTEXT the statement was made. I did not just walk up and attach it to something else to prove my point (weakly mind you) like you did. That comment had nothing to do with the quality of players Kobe was playing with and everything to do with the quality of player Kobe would be in his own eyes. Congrats you made another thing out to be what it wasn't. Sorry I didn't bold it for you but you already knew you weren't making a valid point in the first place.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby trodgers on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:40 am

But JGC, those are old quotes. In January of 2013, he said the following:


"You see everybody else gain confidence from playing well off of it -- so first and foremost that's what I enjoy," he said. "Secondly, because most of you guys [in the media] thought I couldn't do it, so it's pretty funny."

The Lakers have seemingly found a winning formula but is this just a passing phase or is this new Kobe Bryant here to stay?

"When I focus in on something, I become obsessed about it. I want to be perfect at it. It's my personality," said Bryant. "If I was to be a point guard, I'd obsess over it and I wouldn't stop until I got it absolutely right."

Is playmaking his new obsession?

"Can't you tell?" he asked back.

One of the biggest criticisms of Bryant in his career is that he hogs the ball. Maybe now Bryant is driven to rewrite the book. The Lakers need him to sustain the pass-first mind set if they want to survive the season.

"I can do it. I'm like Neo," he said, referring to the Keanu Reeves character from "The Matrix."

Does Bryant love passing now, like he has always loved scoring?

"I enjoy doing it. I prepare for each game," he said. "I look strategically at where defenses are going to be coming from and how to put guys in the right place to be successful."
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:17 am

So.... some old quotes in a certain context are being used to demonstrate that Kobe won't play off the ball?.... wow the strong dislike runs deep in some....

Remember when he said he wanted to be traded.... and the other time when he said he would retire a Laker?

What should we make of that? I think it means he doesn't like Peanut butter sandwiches.....
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby LTLakerFan on Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:22 am

JGC wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:
trodgers wrote:I don't think the claim is about stats though. It was in reference to PP; wasn't it? I think the claim was about diminished skills, and as he is now facing an uphill battle just to get back to the NBA, I think he'd change his mind.


It was exactly about him simply hanging on playing with deminished skills. I guess when one is searching for something they can find anything. Kobe knows he would kill off the ball but this year, especially this year, he has had to do it all.


Well, you are right about finding anything when searching for something. You found a way to make...

You think I'll hang around and average 19 points or 18 points? Hell no.


... actually mean ...

You think I'll hang around and average 19 points or 18 points? Hell yes.


That is simply remarkable.


What's remarkable is that you of course assume the comment was about getting his POINTS. Rather than meaning playing with the level of diminished skills to be capable of only getting that kind of point production. I completely believe that is what the comment was about.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Doc Brown on Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:24 am

Another Kobe debate and JGC on the negative side of it. Yawn......
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby therealdeal on Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:40 am

This thread was absolutely entertaining to read this morning. Made me feel better seeing a good old fashioned beat down of an argument. Reminds me of why I signed up here...

Good work fellas.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Chillbongo on Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:31 am

JGC wrote:The idea that Kobe HAD to become the defacto PG is, IMO, unfair. What was the reason he HAD to become the defacto PG? See, it's this type of thinking that partially leads me to conclude he can't play with a true PG because things will inevitably happen and invariably, he'll feel like he HAS to take over the ball.

He HAD to become the PG because you can't name one other person on this team that can take the ball to the rim. Or break down the defense off the dribble. Or create his own shot. You're living in a world where Steve Nash is still able to do those things. He HAS to take over ball handling duties. We get it - it f****** blows that this roster overhaul didn't pan out the way we wanted but suggesting that this is because Kobe refused to let it happen is asinine. Oh and when he started becoming "PG" we started winning.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:44 am

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:
trodgers wrote:JGC,

You say that there is "no evidence" that he can play off ball with a true PG. Let's set aside the thought that "not signing a true PG" is evidence that he can't play with one. Let's say it's evidence that management thought he couldn't - because that's what it is.

The closest thing he's had to a true PG are - Olympic play, All-Star Games, and early this season. It's fair to say that in all cases he modified his game. Either by taking the challenge defensively or working off ball. So, I think there's good evidence that he would be willing to adjust his game.

Now, you make the further claim that he would rather not play than play under those circumstances. He was in favor of bringing on Jason Kidd and CP3. Good evidence that he'd rather play with those guys than not at all. What's very clear is that there is no evidence at all that he would rather not play at all than play with a true PG. What MIGHT be true is that he would rather not play at all than suck on a losing team.

Thank You.

I cannot see how anyone who has ever watched Kobe play would contend as a matter of "fact" that he would be opposed to doing anything that makes the game easier for him. Ignoring the fact that Nash needs his bigs to actually set proper screens to be effective we still have seen Kobe willing to play off the ball with him. That so-called failure had more to do with Dwight and Nash than Kobe and Nash. unfortunately for us some "don't buy it" when it comes to being able to play together. Kobe is going to do what it takes to win even running himself into the ground because that is what Kobe does.... which is a fact.


I'm not sure how running himself in to the ground makes the game easier for him. How does that work, exactly?

same ole tricks. my statement was "KOBE IS GOING TO DO WHAT IT TAKES TO WIN EVEN RUNNING HIMSELF INTO THE GROUND..." Of course just like the Kobe quote you try to twist it to appear cleaver. It isn't working. Kobe ran himself into the ground because he had too. Unlike armchair coaches who make wild "factual" (as they call it) claims about how he should play Kobe actually does it all to win. Again, anyone who watches the guy instead of looking solely to criticize him would KNOW that his game has evolved every year to make the game easier for him. Playing with a true PG that can create his own shot would do just that but you already knew that before your current "realism about Kobe" comments in here.


It's not a trick. It's because you talked yourself in to a corner -- once again.

You said
I cannot see how anyone who has ever watched Kobe play would contend as a matter of "fact" that he would be opposed to doing anything that makes the game easier for him.


Then followed that with
Kobe is going to do what it takes to win even running himself into the ground...


You can't possible think, that he thinks, that running himself in to the ground makes the game EASIER for him could you? If you search for something, I suppose you can find anything.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:52 am

LTLakerFan wrote:
JGC wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:
trodgers wrote:I don't think the claim is about stats though. It was in reference to PP; wasn't it? I think the claim was about diminished skills, and as he is now facing an uphill battle just to get back to the NBA, I think he'd change his mind.


It was exactly about him simply hanging on playing with deminished skills. I guess when one is searching for something they can find anything. Kobe knows he would kill off the ball but this year, especially this year, he has had to do it all.


Well, you are right about finding anything when searching for something. You found a way to make...

You think I'll hang around and average 19 points or 18 points? Hell no.


... actually mean ...

You think I'll hang around and average 19 points or 18 points? Hell yes.


That is simply remarkable.


What's remarkable is that you of course assume the comment was about getting his POINTS. Rather than meaning playing with the level of diminished skills to be capable of only getting that kind of point production. I completely believe that is what the comment was about.


The comment was about points. He said "Do you think I'm going to hang around and score 18 points or 19 points". You want me to assume when he talked about points that he actually was NOT talking about points? Wow. This is getting beyond ridic.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:02 pm

therealdeal wrote:This thread was absolutely entertaining to read this morning. Made me feel better seeing a good old fashioned beat down of an argument. Reminds me of why I signed up here...

Good work fellas.


What is entertaining is the absolute desperation people are showing. It is near all-time lows from my vantage point.

To the point where, when Kobe says "points" he actually means "skills" and somehow his mouth was dry from practicing so hard and so it came out like "points" but if you slow down the video and read the lips it says "skills". I mean, come on. Ridic.

Bottom line, is it's not about some quote. It's about totality of the evidence. There is no evidence to suggest that he can do this for an extended period of time and be happy to do it.

Part of the lack of that evidence is not his fault. He has never been given a chance to show he COULD do it. He's always had non-traditional PGs along side him with just a few exceptions. He's had few opportunities to show he could defer, but did not do so. Whether ther eason he didn't is justified or not, is moot. Point is, he's had limited chances and didn't show an ability to do it for any extended period of time. There always seems to be a reason for him to have to dominate the ball.

He's made comments about wanting to be a point guard (ball dominant) and not wanting to hang around if he's not putting up big scoring numbers.

There is really nothing we can point to say, look at THAT season. He played off ball, with a true PG and had great success. It doesn't exist. So now you have to find reasons to validate wish and hope. Let's find a YouTube vid of a play where he played off ball once. "Phew, I found one. See, off ball. He can do it!" Of course we all want it to be the case. You should know of anyone, I WANT him to play off ball more. LOL.

But there's also no real substantial evidence of him ever being able to do it, and whether the reason for it is his doing or otherwise, is completely irrelevant.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Punk-101 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:31 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY4b9H8v ... ata_player

Here's the "19 or 18 points" interview for proper context. (2:50ish)
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby TIME on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:37 pm

Punk-101 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY4b9H8v ... ata_player

Here's the "19 or 18 points" interview for proper context. (2:50ish)


Way to muck up a good argument with your silly contextualization. :boxing1:
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Vasashi17 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:49 pm

JGC: I totally get what you're saying and I don't even necessarily disagree with it. What I feel the other members are saying (at least the way I read it) is that Kobe will do anything to get his 6th. If that is playing off ball, then he'll do it...even though we know that Kobe would like nothing more to do than take any challenge upon himself to conquer.

You look back at Kobe's career and as you said, you really can't fault Kobe cause circumstance has never allowed him to play alongside a traditional starting PG. The closest thing was Van Exel and we all know how Del Harris handled that.

When Phil came on board he wanted Kobe to play the facilitator role (for Shaq) and that is why that relationship initially soured, but we all know that Kobe did just that. He wanted to be the go to guy, but Phil wanted Shaq to be that guy, so Kobe obliged. At the time, you can claim that Kobe was forced into submission cause there were so many vets and even the Zen master telling him to wait his turn....so he might have done it against his will...but still...he did it.

I think most of us grew up with Kobe and we have seen him grow up himself. I was one of Kobe's harshest critics...you can look at my earlier posts (or maybe we can just have Doc do it..haha). But Great Scotts, do I appreciate how the guy matured. I always use to claim that if Kobe was all about championships, he wouldn't have wanted Phil or Shaq to depart the Lakers....but now with everything behind us, he is embracing the fact that he needs help. He wanted Phil to return. He appreciated what Shaq meant to his ring collection. He knows what a player like Gasol can do for his ring count. He was absolutely giddy when he found out that Nash and Howard were on the way after facing a low where the CP3 deal got nixed. I mean, he wants to play entire games if that's what it takes.

This guy knows that a ring isn't a given. That's why he's changed his diet. That's why he does 24/7 treatment to get ready for the game. That's why he refuses to stay down, when any 17 year old vet probably would have said, well, it was fun while it lasted.

The guy grew up and became someone hell bent on getting 6 and possibly 7. He knows he needs help. He knows he's willing to do anything to get those rings.

But he does not want to earn those rings without being a major cog in the process. I think his comments on points should be interpreted as such. He refuses to be a shell of himself and when he anticipates that happening, he'll walk away from the game, regardless of his ring count.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby thkthebest on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:16 pm

Kobe is one of the hardest workers this game has ever seen. If he needs to play off the ball, he can surely learn how to play off the ball. The problem is that Kobe is also one of the greatest players WITH the ball. What player would actually justify taking the ball out of Kobe's hands? It was supposed to be Nash, but we all know what happened there.

If we get LeBron or CP3, then yea, Kobe can play off the ball some more. He knows it. He's stated it. Who else would justify it? Nobody. If it's anybody else, then it would only make sense for Kobe to sacrifice some possessions, but most of the ball handling duties should still go to him because he's just too good at it.
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