Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:02 pm

thkthebest wrote:Kobe is one of the hardest workers this game has ever seen. If he needs to play off the ball, he can surely learn how to play off the ball. The problem is that Kobe is also one of the greatest players WITH the ball. What player would actually justify taking the ball out of Kobe's hands? It was supposed to be Nash, but we all know what happened there.

If we get LeBron or CP3, then yea, Kobe can play off the ball some more. He knows it. He's stated it. Who else would justify it? Nobody. If it's anybody else, then it would only make sense for Kobe to sacrifice some possessions, but most of the ball handling duties should still go to him because he's just too good at it.


People have been saying that Kobe COULD play off ball for years now. He still hasn't done it. People said he WOULD play off the ball with Nash here. Never happened. Check out these gems from the "My Concerns About Kobe and This Current Laker Team" thread in the beginning of this season (names withheld).

Now he has the same opportunity here with Dwight and Nash. Do you think he WANTS to expend energy trying to create a shot when he has a player like Nash to get him the ball to the spots he wants?


Hope this thread gets moderated.


Dude! Kobe Bean Bryant is probably the absolute smartest player in the league. Well him or Nash. (granted from homer Laker view but damned hard to argue against). Do you actually think he (and Nash) are not going to be able to figure this out with all the new attack options that will be available? Seriously?????


i think Kobe coming right off the Olympics where he was picking his spots and allowing the rest of the team do its thing will help him ease into his new role next season

i have no worries about Kobe 'messing' things up


He'll do his thing, he'll score his points, but he's not going to have to dominate the ball which will help the team.


I'm am really sick of hearing that Kobe won't be willing to defer to Nash or Dwight. Kobe HEAVILY recruited Nash to Los Angeles. Why the hell would he do that if he wasn't willing to defer?


He'll still be the go to guy in the 4th quarter, but there's absolutely no question in my mind that Kobe will be able to defer to Nash and Dwight.


That's not the case anymore with Nash aboard. Now Kobe can play off the ball more and conserve alot of energy.


this isn't smush parker we're talking about. this isn't steve blake and kwame brown we're talking about. it's steve nash, and dwight howard.


also with being one year older, he's gonna be ever more deferring to players like dwight to 1. conserve his energy/body 2. make dwight happy.


At least to me that means Kobe will let Nash do his thing and put him in the best possible positions to score. Kobe is about winning.


I think it's out there that he called Nash to help convince him to come here so he wouldn't have to handle the ball as much.


"If Kobe doesn’t mesh with Nash’s offense, then this team will not succeed."

How often does that happen with Steve Nash?


I'll be pretty surprised if Kobe goes into ball hog mode this year. He has to realize the end is near and he is a much more limited player and has to pick his spots. He has to let Nash run the show.


I also look at the role he has taken on in the olympics. Kobe will be just fine.


Again, it's not entirely Kobe's fault. Part of it is that he's been put in this situation. If you develop a player to focus on offense and not defense, it's going to be hard to ask him to be a lock down defender 17 seasons in to his career ok. That's just reality.

You look at the threads over the years and every now and then discussions pop up just like this one about whether a guy like Kobe can play with a ball dominant player. And the responses are always the same. They usually include words such as "not worried", "fine", "olympics", "he's about winning", etc. There's no actual reference to it occurring over any extended period of time because well, it hasn't. So it's all hope and conjecture. They'll even say "he'll do what he has to do to win" but even that isn't true. He didn't play defense. (I suppose we can get in to a discussion about whether one has to play defense to win).

Getting a true PG while Kobe is here wouldn't make sense. It would be better, to go and get someone who can play OFF of Kobe. We can go and get a true PG when Kobe is gone.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby trodgers on Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:00 pm

I'm now confused. I took it that you'd admitted I was right; now you're seeming to lump my response with others that say such uninteresting things as "not worried." What's your position? I'm up front about mine: Kobe has altered his game, and he would do it again (and in further ways) if it were best for the team.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:56 pm

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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby lakersin4 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:24 am

It really depends what type of starting SF we have going foward. If we land a good young athletic defensive SF then the main focus for the PG is 3 point shooting. If we continue with MWP or other older/slower SF's we need to focus on speed & defense at PG & still need shooting, basically we'd need a star.

Here's a list of guys I'd love to have as our PG of the future with Dwight & yes I think they could exist with Kobe, some more than others, some are impossible/untouchable some are upcoming FA's or could be available via trade.

mostly in order:

Curry
Kyrie
Conley
Lillard
Jrue
Dragic
Lawson
Hill
Walker
Lowry
Jennings
Bledsoe
Teague
Vasquez
Knight
Lin
Barea
Calderon
Stuckey
Bayless
Chalmers

The top 10 or so names are probably only possible via Gasol/Nash trade. Some really good fits in there. I still love Lowry for this team & hope Toronto still loves Nash. Then let Calderon finally join up with Pau as Lowry's backup.. We'd be in great shape.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby odom1year on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:53 am

Actually if we have a chance, we should sign Ray Allen instead of Nash.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Alleyhoops on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:27 am

There were times when Kobe floated off the ball a bit more when he was on the floor with Ariza, so personnel dictates a lot.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:53 am

trodgers wrote:I'm now confused. I took it that you'd admitted I was right; now you're seeming to lump my response with others that say such uninteresting things as "not worried." What's your position? I'm up front about mine: Kobe has altered his game, and he would do it again (and in further ways) if it were best for the team.


The conversation about whether Kobe can play with a true PG has been going on for years. As a fan, the first instinct is to say he can do anything and everything. Just as it was at the beginning of the season when we acquired Nash (see quotes above). But for one reason or another, it hasn't happened. Some of those reasons aren't his fault. Some are. Bottom line, in 17 years, he's never played off ball for any significant amount of time. At this point in his career, I'd love to see him play MORE of that Rip/Ray type role where he's moving off the ball to get in to space to take his jumpers but even when we had Nash running the show briefly, that didn't happen. He calls for the ball on the perimeter or in the post. Jamison plays much better off the ball than Kobe but Jamison has played off ball his entire career.

The problem is that too many people think it is an indictment on Kobe to say he can't do something. If you started a thread called "Can Kobe play a true point guard role for the Lakers?" you'd see the same reactions. "If it were best for the team, yes, Kobe could do it" and then you'd see references to a string of games where he got a high assist total.

But the reality is, he can't play elite defense AND do his thing offensively even though that is best for the team and he isn't going to play facilitator all day every day either. But that's ok. Doesn't ruin his legacy. Let's just accept that and instead find a player where Kobe could say, play off ball MORE (which I would love), but still have opportunities to play on-ball in a way that doesn't make the PG feel out of sorts the way it did with Nash. So you know, we need to find Sterek Fasher for this team.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:39 am

circles again. Weird.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby gcclaker on Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:54 am

Bryant can play off the ball but not ALL game nor in sustained stretches. He is NOT a catch and shoot player in the mode of Allen or Hamilton or Miller. In the Tri with capable teammates around him, Bryant did play off the ball where he had good passers in Gasol and Odom...even Walton that found him. Ariza at the 3 took pressure off him as well. After all, the Tri was predicated on ball and player movement. The only times when Bryant aggressively called for the ball was when the game was on the balance or he wanted to stem the opposition's momentum. Even then, he had cats around him that would wave him off and say 'I'm takin' this!'

This crew NEVER had a chance to jell due to missed time...NEVER found a comfort level amongst themselves. When you have three previously ball dominant stars on your team, it is just not going to happen overnight. Injuries, rehabbing, in and out of the trainer's room...not going to help at all. Yeah sure they can just figure it out because they're pros and they have the "names" right? Eh...no 'coz life ain't perfect and it ain't a damn video game. It would take practice, in-game applications, pre-game, half time and even post game discussions.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:49 am

puffyusaf#2 wrote:circles again. Weird.


Useless drivel. Shocker.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:12 pm

gcclaker wrote:Bryant can play off the ball but not ALL game nor in sustained stretches. He is NOT a catch and shoot player in the mode of Allen or Hamilton or Miller. In the Tri with capable teammates around him, Bryant did play off the ball where he had good passers in Gasol and Odom...even Walton that found him. Ariza at the 3 took pressure off him as well. After all, the Tri was predicated on ball and player movement. The only times when Bryant aggressively called for the ball was when the game was on the balance or he wanted to stem the opposition's momentum. Even then, he had cats around him that would wave him off and say 'I'm takin' this!'

This crew NEVER had a chance to jell due to missed time...NEVER found a comfort level amongst themselves. When you have three previously ball dominant stars on your team, it is just not going to happen overnight. Injuries, rehabbing, in and out of the trainer's room...not going to help at all. Yeah sure they can just figure it out because they're pros and they have the "names" right? Eh...no 'coz life ain't perfect and it ain't a damn video game. It would take practice, in-game applications, pre-game, half time and even post game discussions.


I think it would be really unfortunate if you got any backlash for this post, but I think that is a very good, objective way to break it down.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:09 pm

JGC wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:circles again. Weird.


Useless drivel. Shocker.


That is interesting. I am not the one who is purposefully using statements out of context because my point is so weak that I can't support it. Hey, I'll step out of this one so you can continue to write a bunch of stuff that sounds like you are making a point but really aren't. Carry on with your superior basketball mind to us uneducated Lakers fans. lol. I wish Kobe would listen to you because he may actually be something and do something for this franchise. Only if!
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:05 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
JGC wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:circles again. Weird.


Useless drivel. Shocker.


That is interesting. I am not the one who is purposefully using statements out of context because my point is so weak that I can't support it. Hey, I'll step out of this one so you can continue to write a bunch of stuff that sounds like you are making a point but really aren't. Carry on with your superior basketball mind to us uneducated Lakers fans. lol. I wish Kobe would listen to you because he may actually be something and do something for this franchise. Only if!


Thanks!
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Finwë on Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:34 pm

JGC wrote:It's not a trick. It's because you talked yourself in to a corner -- once again.

You said
I cannot see how anyone who has ever watched Kobe play would contend as a matter of "fact" that he would be opposed to doing anything that makes the game easier for him.


Then followed that with
Kobe is going to do what it takes to win even running himself into the ground...


You can't possible think, that he thinks, that running himself in to the ground makes the game EASIER for him could you? If you search for something, I suppose you can find anything.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how this makes sense..
Those were completely different sentences, describing 2 characteristics of Kobe: a) Kobe will do anything that makes the game easier for him, and b) Kobe will do anything it takes to win even running himself into the ground.
Those are not contradictory at all, it's just saying that while he obviously wants to find ways to make the game easier for him, he's also willing to do anything it takes to win, including running himself to the ground.

I don't see how you made the connection and implied Puffy was suggesting that Kobe running himself into the ground made the game easier for him. I just don't see the logic.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Finwë on Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:10 pm

JGC wrote:
thkthebest wrote:Kobe is one of the hardest workers this game has ever seen. If he needs to play off the ball, he can surely learn how to play off the ball. The problem is that Kobe is also one of the greatest players WITH the ball. What player would actually justify taking the ball out of Kobe's hands? It was supposed to be Nash, but we all know what happened there.

If we get LeBron or CP3, then yea, Kobe can play off the ball some more. He knows it. He's stated it. Who else would justify it? Nobody. If it's anybody else, then it would only make sense for Kobe to sacrifice some possessions, but most of the ball handling duties should still go to him because he's just too good at it.


People have been saying that Kobe COULD play off ball for years now. He still hasn't done it. People said he WOULD play off the ball with Nash here. Never happened. Check out these gems from the "My Concerns About Kobe and This Current Laker Team" thread in the beginning of this season (names withheld).
Spoiler:
Now he has the same opportunity here with Dwight and Nash. Do you think he WANTS to expend energy trying to create a shot when he has a player like Nash to get him the ball to the spots he wants?


Hope this thread gets moderated.


Dude! Kobe Bean Bryant is probably the absolute smartest player in the league. Well him or Nash. (granted from homer Laker view but damned hard to argue against). Do you actually think he (and Nash) are not going to be able to figure this out with all the new attack options that will be available? Seriously?????


i think Kobe coming right off the Olympics where he was picking his spots and allowing the rest of the team do its thing will help him ease into his new role next season

i have no worries about Kobe 'messing' things up


He'll do his thing, he'll score his points, but he's not going to have to dominate the ball which will help the team.


I'm am really sick of hearing that Kobe won't be willing to defer to Nash or Dwight. Kobe HEAVILY recruited Nash to Los Angeles. Why the hell would he do that if he wasn't willing to defer?


He'll still be the go to guy in the 4th quarter, but there's absolutely no question in my mind that Kobe will be able to defer to Nash and Dwight.


That's not the case anymore with Nash aboard. Now Kobe can play off the ball more and conserve alot of energy.


this isn't smush parker we're talking about. this isn't steve blake and kwame brown we're talking about. it's steve nash, and dwight howard.


also with being one year older, he's gonna be ever more deferring to players like dwight to 1. conserve his energy/body 2. make dwight happy.


At least to me that means Kobe will let Nash do his thing and put him in the best possible positions to score. Kobe is about winning.


I think it's out there that he called Nash to help convince him to come here so he wouldn't have to handle the ball as much.


"If Kobe doesn’t mesh with Nash’s offense, then this team will not succeed."

How often does that happen with Steve Nash?


I'll be pretty surprised if Kobe goes into ball hog mode this year. He has to realize the end is near and he is a much more limited player and has to pick his spots. He has to let Nash run the show.


I also look at the role he has taken on in the olympics. Kobe will be just fine.


Again, it's not entirely Kobe's fault. Part of it is that he's been put in this situation. If you develop a player to focus on offense and not defense, it's going to be hard to ask him to be a lock down defender 17 seasons in to his career ok. That's just reality.

You look at the threads over the years and every now and then discussions pop up just like this one about whether a guy like Kobe can play with a ball dominant player. And the responses are always the same. They usually include words such as "not worried", "fine", "olympics", "he's about winning", etc. There's no actual reference to it occurring over any extended period of time because well, it hasn't. So it's all hope and conjecture. They'll even say "he'll do what he has to do to win" but even that isn't true. He didn't play defense. (I suppose we can get in to a discussion about whether one has to play defense to win).

Getting a true PG while Kobe is here wouldn't make sense. It would be better, to go and get someone who can play OFF of Kobe. We can go and get a true PG when Kobe is gone.


You are placing the cause of Kobe going back to playing on the ball on Kobe's alleged inability to play off it, instead of where it belongs, which is on Nash. He was sidelined for a big bunch of games, and when he was actually playing he wasn't close to the version of Nash Kobe and many hoped would show, but a slower, less impactful, less able to cause mismatches and open looks of the pick and roll, and therefore, not a much better (or even better) option than having Kobe play on the ball..
All of those things mentioned, plus the urgency of our situation for almost all the length of the season kinda forced us to stop the Nash experiment (which wasn't really going that well) and go back to something we knew would probably work better, which was Kobe playing more on the ball, and Nash acting frequently as a shooter off the ball, but as someone that could also go back to playing on the ball at any given time and running a few P&Rs.

Regarding the essential question of this thread, I don't think we even need a "true PG", nor Kobe to play consistently off the ball, assuming he comes back healthy. With Howard wanting touches on the block, Kobe being one of the best post-up perimeter players, and the possibility of still having Pau who also posts up, a true PG would be kinda wasted, since a bunch of possessions would just involve making a simple entry pass, spacing the floor, maybe making a re-post pass or cutting to the rim.. We can run P&R with anybody, not just a "true PG", we can do it with Kobe, or a normal PG, or a SF that can dribble and pass (not MWP, we'd have to get a better SF offensively speaking. This is one of our biggest personnel needs).
Look at the best 2 teams in the East, Miami and NY, neither uses actual "true" PG play, but system offenses that involve a lot of guys touching the ball, spacing the floor, and using the post as a way not only to get points for the post-up guy, but to create looks for others. They still play P&R a bunch, but not necessarily (and actually Miami doesn't do it frequently) with the PG as the ball handler, but with guys like JR Smith or Melo in NY's case, or Wade and LeBron in Miami's case.
Take Carmelo or Wade or LeBron and consider if Kobe could play in a similar style. Carmelo plays off the ball some, but he also plays on the post, plays P&R, and sometimes ISOs on the wings. Same with LeBron and Wade, both can play off the ball, but they're at their best when they mix it up, go from P&R to a post-up set, from setting screens and rolling / popping to using screens themselves to drive (and dish if they draw defenders) or to take a pull-up J.
That's the style that fits Kobe the best, a hybrid between some on the ball action (P&R, post-up, the occational ISO -best if it's on a mismatch-) and some off the ball action (screening, cutting, catch-and-shoot shots, etc). It's kind of what he's done most of his career when he's had the needed personnel, more on the ball than off it actually, but mostly due to playing with players that couldn't really consistently create for others (Fisher was the starting PG, Sessions started well but then regressed, Nash with his health problems and decadent ability to be the Steve Nash we all knew).
That's IMO the style of play he needs to go with when he comes back (which hopefully is in 2013), and I don't think we need a "true PG" (I think we need an athletic SF that can shoot, some youth in our bench, some shooters).

While I like threads like this, I don't understand why they are mostly about offense and about Kobe, and not about defense or our bench, which were MUCH bigger reasons for concern this season (and the last couple of seasons alike).
I would like, for example, to see a discussion on whether we could use a zone defense to hide our lack of 1 on 1 athleticism, or on whether we should start developing role players ala Poppovich, playing them a lot more and mixed in with the starters, not as a "2nd unit", but as a constant hybrid..
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:40 pm

^ I completely agree with that. Kobe would be a lot more effective playing next to a PG who can play off ball some, and a PG who can create his own shot as well to relieve some of the pressure. I'm not even an advocate (if you haven't seen my posts) of Kobe playing with a true PG. And not only because I don't think Kobe would be as effective (nor do I think he would prefer to play with a true PG), but I also don't think it would work for the true PG either (case in point, Nash who, to say the least, had a difficult time in his occasional role as off guard and he admitted as such).

The earlier point was simply that it doesn't make sense to say he would do ANYTHING that makes the game easier because if he's running himself in to the ground, then he isn't doing ANYTHING that makes the game easier (unless you believe running himself in to the ground makes things easier for him which I don't believe).

I think it would be more correct to say that Kobe would do ANYTHING to win games even if it makes the game HARDER for himself (i.e. putting team on his back, playing extended minutes, etc). In fact, I'd argue Kobe doesn't do much of anything to make things easier on himself, in fact, he pushes himself to the brink and often beyond.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Finwë on Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:06 pm

JGC wrote:^ I completely agree with that. Kobe would be a lot more effective playing next to a PG who can play off ball some, and a PG who can create his own shot as well to relieve some of the pressure. I'm not even an advocate (if you haven't seen my posts) of Kobe playing with a true PG. And not only because I don't think Kobe would be as effective (nor do I think he would prefer to play with a true PG), but I also don't think it would work for the true PG either (case in point, Nash who, to say the least, had a difficult time in his occasional role as off guard and he admitted as such).

The earlier point was simply that it doesn't make sense to say he would do ANYTHING that makes the game easier because if he's running himself in to the ground, then he isn't doing ANYTHING that makes the game easier (unless you believe running himself in to the ground makes things easier for him which I don't believe).

I think it would be more correct to say that Kobe would do ANYTHING to win games even if it makes the game HARDER for himself (i.e. putting team on his back, playing extended minutes, etc). In fact, I'd argue Kobe doesn't do much of anything to make things easier on himself, in fact, he pushes himself to the brink and often beyond.

But it's not a contradiction. He didn't suggest running himself into the ground makes things easier for him, he said two separate things.
IMO the statements mean that: Kobe will do anything it takes to win, and that of course extends to playing a certain way or a certain amount of minutes that will make his life easier, because it usually translates to personal success and team success. HOWEVER, in this season, there were no such alternatives, and if he had focused on being more comfortable himself or playing less minutes, success wouldn't have been easy to come by. So he choose to "run himself to the ground", in an effort to help us get to the playoffs, because he couldn't think of an alternative that made his life easier and would result in similar success.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby lakersin4 on Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:06 pm

lakersin4 wrote:It really depends what type of starting SF we have going foward. If we land a good young athletic defensive SF then the main focus for the PG is 3 point shooting. If we continue with MWP or other older/slower SF's we need to focus on speed & defense at PG & still need shooting, basically we'd need a star.

Here's a list of guys I'd love to have as our PG of the future with Dwight & yes I think they could exist with Kobe, some more than others, some are impossible/untouchable some are upcoming FA's or could be available via trade.

mostly in order:

Curry
Kyrie
Conley
Lillard
Jrue
Dragic
Lawson
Hill
Walker
Lowry
Jennings
Bledsoe
Teague
Vasquez
Knight
Lin
Barea
Calderon
Stuckey
Bayless
Chalmers

The top 10 or so names are probably only possible via Gasol/Nash trade. Some really good fits in there. I still love Lowry for this team & hope Toronto still loves Nash. Then let Calderon finally join up with Pau as Lowry's backup.. We'd be in great shape.

Can't believe I left Avery Bradley off the list. He'd be an outstanding fit. I'd rank him right below Lowry. Jack also belongs on the list right below Stuckey. I'm sure I'm forgetting others, this league is loaded with PG's.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:04 pm

Finwë wrote:
JGC wrote:^ I completely agree with that. Kobe would be a lot more effective playing next to a PG who can play off ball some, and a PG who can create his own shot as well to relieve some of the pressure. I'm not even an advocate (if you haven't seen my posts) of Kobe playing with a true PG. And not only because I don't think Kobe would be as effective (nor do I think he would prefer to play with a true PG), but I also don't think it would work for the true PG either (case in point, Nash who, to say the least, had a difficult time in his occasional role as off guard and he admitted as such).

The earlier point was simply that it doesn't make sense to say he would do ANYTHING that makes the game easier because if he's running himself in to the ground, then he isn't doing ANYTHING that makes the game easier (unless you believe running himself in to the ground makes things easier for him which I don't believe).

I think it would be more correct to say that Kobe would do ANYTHING to win games even if it makes the game HARDER for himself (i.e. putting team on his back, playing extended minutes, etc). In fact, I'd argue Kobe doesn't do much of anything to make things easier on himself, in fact, he pushes himself to the brink and often beyond.

But it's not a contradiction. He didn't suggest running himself into the ground makes things easier for him, he said two separate things.
IMO the statements mean that: Kobe will do anything it takes to win, and that of course extends to playing a certain way or a certain amount of minutes that will make his life easier, because it usually translates to personal success and team success. HOWEVER, in this season, there were no such alternatives, and if he had focused on being more comfortable himself or playing less minutes, success wouldn't have been easy to come by. So he choose to "run himself to the ground", in an effort to help us get to the playoffs, because he couldn't think of an alternative that made his life easier and would result in similar success.


Oh wow. That ... is a stretch to say the least. I can see why it didn't make sense to you earlier.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby kobe_008 on Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:02 am

Kobe's at fault again
damn guy gave everything, played every position you asked him
carry the team and fulilled his guarantee of playoffs
play him until he can't walk and still question if he can co exists with a PG or maybe we add superstars

His just a ballhog!
Must throw him under the bus soon
those 30M i mean 80M he cost us will be better with some other pass first guy in the league

Hate really runs deep
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:56 pm

Finwë wrote:But it's not a contradiction. He didn't suggest running himself into the ground makes things easier for him, he said two separate things.
IMO the statements mean that: Kobe will do anything it takes to win, and that of course extends to playing a certain way or a certain amount of minutes that will make his life easier, because it usually translates to personal success and team success. HOWEVER, in this season, there were no such alternatives, and if he had focused on being more comfortable himself or playing less minutes, success wouldn't have been easy to come by. So he choose to "run himself to the ground", in an effort to help us get to the playoffs, because he couldn't think of an alternative that made his life easier and would result in similar success.


Fin- You obviously understand basic concepts of thought, however, you are arguing against someone who basically doesn't get it. Sooner or later he will come up with some type of insult saying you just don't understand because (in his mind) he is a much more superior basketball mind than we all try to be. Taking things out of context and misusing quotes is the gimmick often used, followed by some form of fake laughter at the obsurdity of your post, then a false humility of understanding you just don't get and lastly he will run to the Mods claiming people are baiting him or calling him names.

Edit: I see he already has gone to the "awe, you don't understand" part of his post.

:bow: You had some great responses to him its just a shame its a waste.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:36 am

^ This post has absolutely nothing to do with Kobe or his ability to play off-ball with a true PG. The whole point of your post was ... me? Flattered but, unnecessary IMO especially for everyone else. Why wouldn't you just PM that to him? I will flag, but I would suggest re-reading the forum rules here.

If you have any interest in posting about this topic, I'll re-state my points and you can address those. The reason I believe Kobe cannot play off-ball with a true PG are as follows: (And for clarity's sake, what I mean by cannot is, be equally or more effective, not physically capable).

- He has never played exclusively off-ball, with a true PG, for any extended amount of time in his NBA career. As I've stated before, it's not his fault, he'd just never been put in that situation. He's been playing a certain way for 17 years.

- This injury-riddled season was the first time he played with a true PG that was brought in specifically to play the true PG role. It didn't work. And I don't completely buy the age excuse. Nash has career 42K mins on his legs TODAY. By the end of the 2010-2011 season, Jason Kidd had logged over 25% more mins (53K) on his legs and both players were/are in their late 30s and Kidd won a championship that year. I also don't completely buy the 'time to jell' argument either. Pau and Kobe jelled, with no training camp, no practices, from Pau's first game, on the road, against the Nets I think it was. That's a combination that worked and you know it worked because it clicked from day 1, got even better over time, and culminated in rings.

- Taking it back to the quote for a second. He did say he didn't want to hang around to score 18/19 points. Some people are suggesting by points he actually wasn't talking about points but he was talking about skills. Ok, fine. It doesn't really matter. Even if this were the case, it still shows a clear and direct association of skill level with point production (he didn't, after all, refer to blocks, assists, minutes or anything else). He's a scorer, and scorer's need the ball and he knows this. Does anyone really believe that at any point in his career he's going to stop calling for the ball on every play? I've seen nothing to suggest that Kobe wants the ball less often.

So there really is no evidence, over the span of nearly 2 decades, of Kobe playing off-ball with a true PG. There is only evidence of great success, over the span of nearly 2 decades, of him playing on-ball without a true PG and off-ball without a true PG.

To top it off, to gcclaker's point, does anyone really think Kobe would be a better player playing off-ball with a true PG? I for one, don't.
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby Vasashi17 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:01 am

I agree, lets stay on topic here you guys. Discuss the topic!

JGC, the infamous quote is a bit out of context, but I truly believe it had to do with Kobe's skills deteriorating and he just gave out an arbitrary number.

Can he play off ball and share the scoring punch with a ball-handling point? I think he can.

But you did bring up something interesting in that, would it be the most effective/efficient way of using Kobe. I guess that is a better way of looking at it and probably one of Punk's intentions in developing this thread.

I still think its an efficient way to use Kobe. Here's why....throughout his years as a pro, we look at Kobe as a ruthless scorer, but if you keep digging, over the years he prefers to feel out the game and take it upon himself offensively if things aren't clicking in our favor. During the triangle years, you would see him get Shaq established and then try to get his shots to gain a rhythm. You hardly ever saw Kobe just fork up shots to start off the game. He felt the game out and tried to get his frontline and teammates established first. He absolutely loves to take the last shot or have the ball in his hands to make the decisive play in the 4th quarter. So more than being an incredible scorer, his role as a closer probably supercedes that.

Kobe knows that his career is winding down. We all know of his desire to get to that 6 championship club and I'm sure he wants to one up that crowd with 7. The only way to do that now is to prolong his career, but not in a way were he becomes a shell of himself and relies on others heavily to get those rings. That is why he's changed his diet and preparation for games. He's doing whatever he can to leave the game with his goals, yet not sacrifice the fashion in which he leaves the game.

So I think he definitely embraces coming off ball more and pacing himself to become a closer in games that call for it. You utilize him efficiently this way, cause not everything is offense. We've seen Kobe play good defense, so based off efficiency, you utilize Kobe alot more favorably if you distribute the offensive load amongst the team and have him playing solid defense.

Would Kobe embrace such a role....he's done it before, so I don't see why not.

Give him a ball dominant PG, where our backcourt gets everybody involved early. Meanwhile, Kobe gives it his all on defense. As the game progresses, Kobe forces his will offensively as a closer, especially in deciding a close game down the stretch. This way you prolong his career allowing him to hunt those rings, while utilizing his skillset efficiently.

Why am I particularly interested in prolonging Kobe's career in hopes that he gets 6 and 7? It means we get 17 and 18! Kobe has emphasized that he's a Laker for Life...so lets honor that and honor Dr. Buss's initial vision for purchasing this franchise...one upping "those guys"
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Re: Can/Will Kobe play off-ball with a true PG?

Postby JGC on Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:42 am

Some good points there Vash.

And yes, I too would like to see him play off-ball more, I'm just not convinced that he would be more effective, nor even wants, to play as off-ball as he would with a traditional and true PG. I'm talking about a guy who handles the ball for the majority of the time he is on the court and puts up like 18 and 10 every single night. Nash is a true PG, and while there were some age and injury factors there, only put up 6.7 AST per game and those aren't true PG numbers IMO. Nash struggled because he's an on-ball PG that had to play more off-ball. That's why I don't think it would work. You'd have TWO players that are in a position to do the exact opposite of what they've spent their entire careers doing.

By the way, I don't argue that Kobe cannot play off-ball per se. I argue that it won't work if you have Kobe playing off-ball with a true PG. Of course Kobe can play off-ball if you play in a triangle style offense because he's done it and won. I can only assume that if we're talking about Kobe WITH a true PG, that we're talking about playing in a more traditional PG-led style offense. If we're talking about Kobe playing off-ball with a true PG in a triangle type offense then I guess I would say yes, he could because he has, but it wouldn't make much sense to get a true PG for that type of offense and the true PG would then struggle (Payton/Nash), IMO, so then it wouldn't work.

IMO, the best type of PG to pair with Kobe is not a true PG. It would be a PG who can shoulder some of the offensive load, create his own shot, create for others, and be comfortable playing a little off-ball himself. Someone like a Russell Westbrook comes to mind. Because it's not just going to be about the PG taking the load off of Kobe by bringing the ball up and creating plays for others, it's also going to be to have to do a good chunk of the scoring himself as well as Kobe doesn't feel like he has to do it all.
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