D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby revgen on Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:32 am

Texas Lakers Fan wrote:^ By your logic our 2009 championship doesn't count because KG didn't play.


It counts. We had to get through the superior western conference to get to the Finals.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby wcsoldier81 on Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:34 am

I'm not saying that at all ... it sure helped Orlando ( who barely beat a KG less Celtpricks) to advance though

This Magic team going to the Finals is kinda like the Mavs winning the title ... it can happen when a lot of things go their way ... but it's an one time thing
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby Finwë on Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:49 am

Texas Lakers Fan wrote:
Finwë wrote:
fkmikebrown wrote:tonight was the first time i found myself thinking "dwight howard might be overrated"

not 100% i guess

I've been thinking that for a WHILE now.

How he is overrated?

Dwight isn't anywhere near 100 percent and he's still putting up 18 & 12.

He's nowhere near overrated either.

C'mon, I'm watching the games, not just reading ppg and rppg, and if you are too then you see he is very inconsistent. Maybe he wasn't so back in Orlando, but the inconsistencies I'm seeing don't seem to have that much to do with health but with fundamentals/skills.. His hands are terrible, fumbling the ball and getting stripped all the time.. He has no touch around the basket, his FT shooting sucks. IMO he is in no way a #1 offensive option.
Defensively of course he's great but still I feel his D is overrated. I know his teammates aren't helping him at all but some of it is definitely on him. His effort on that end is NOT consistent, and his idea of trying to block every shot sometimes isn't a good one, he over-rotates on D.

Whenever we post him up I have little faith that something good will come out of it. His P&R game also is limited to dunks/layups, he can't really react to the D stepping up because he can't dribble and he can't shoot either.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby revgen on Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:08 am

Kobe made some interesting comments this season about Dwight and Bynum. He told reporters that he liked Bynum because he had an "edge" about him. He also told reporters that Dwight "is a tough guy, even though he smiles a lot". I find it interesting how he commented on both players.

Part of D12's biggest weaknesses as a leader is that he's too nice. Which is fine if he's Steve Nash and he's a PG who primarily looks for others. As a defensive anchor, being "nice" isn't necessarily a good trait. It would be better if he had a KG type personality and he could call out his teammates when they screwed up defensively. He only does that when he talks to reporters. And when he does confess to reporters about the lack of help, he almost seems to be pleading rather than demanding. That's why he always relied on SVG in Orlando to call out his teammates for not helping out. He couldn't rely on Mike Brown since MB was also a "nice guy". He can't rely on D'Antoni since D'Antoni doesn't know squat about defense. I don't expect D12 to change who is as a person, but he's always said that he wants to be an actor or getting into acting when his NBA career is over. Maybe this is an opportunity for him to sign up for a role. Try playing the "bad guy" for once.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby Big Mamma Jamma on Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:05 am

Not happy that Dwight said this ....

''Look at the difference between our team and theirs,'' Howard said. ''They just play together. They share the ball. Everybody's excited when something happens. We have to be like that to be a great team.''


Sounds like a not-so-veiled jab at Kobe. I see Howard as a one and done with the Lakers. Plus, the guy has no offensive game. Shaq was right in a way with Howard, Lopez has more offensive skill than this guy.

I know many don't want to hear this but I really think it is time to either trade much of the albatross on the roster to see if we can pry open the championship window or just blow the whole thing up with a sign and trade of Howard at the end of the season. The Lakers need a youth infusion in the worst way.

I don't think MDA is a bad coach but I think he was a bad hire for this team as currently constituted. I believe that Phil or Sloan (my personal choice) would have been great for this team. With MDA this is a square-peg-in-round-hole scenario.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby last stand on Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:53 am

Sounds more like a shot at the roster and how Sacre is the only player who ever cheers

You have ebanks and Jamison pouting

Morris brain dead

Kobe and Nash always quiet

Pau dying inside

Jordan hill thinking about how much longer his hair can get

Meeks wondering why he looks like Jamison

Duhon staring straight ahead counting down the minutes until he has to give high fives

Earl Clark wondering if he's even a basketball player
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby lakersyunowin on Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:00 am

i also agree with last stand. he's at least referring in part to the team chemistry. this roster doesn't have a whole lot of it. the joy that these guys have playing together ebbs and flows like the tide.

compare this team to the days when we had farmar, sasha, ariza, LO, and even luke over there on the bench. that team was more like a brotherhood than anything compared to what we have now. it probably came from them rising through the ranks together from suckitude to being contenders once again. this current group was just thrown together with some heavy hitting pieces (starters) and some very bad pieces (shallow, inconsistent bench). great on paper...but the results on the court are pretty underwhelming.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby JGC on Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:06 am

Finwë wrote:
Texas Lakers Fan wrote:
Finwë wrote:
fkmikebrown wrote:tonight was the first time i found myself thinking "dwight howard might be overrated"

not 100% i guess

I've been thinking that for a WHILE now.

How he is overrated?

Dwight isn't anywhere near 100 percent and he's still putting up 18 & 12.

He's nowhere near overrated either.

C'mon, I'm watching the games, not just reading ppg and rppg, and if you are too then you see he is very inconsistent. Maybe he wasn't so back in Orlando, but the inconsistencies I'm seeing don't seem to have that much to do with health but with fundamentals/skills.. His hands are terrible, fumbling the ball and getting stripped all the time.. He has no touch around the basket, his FT shooting sucks. IMO he is in no way a #1 offensive option.
Defensively of course he's great but still I feel his D is overrated. I know his teammates aren't helping him at all but some of it is definitely on him. His effort on that end is NOT consistent, and his idea of trying to block every shot sometimes isn't a good one, he over-rotates on D.

Whenever we post him up I have little faith that something good will come out of it. His P&R game also is limited to dunks/layups, he can't really react to the D stepping up because he can't dribble and he can't shoot either.


Agreed on all of your points. An interesting debate at this juncture would be ... a healthy Bynum or Dwight?

I honestly think Dwight hands the opposing team at least 2 points every game on offensive goaltending plays. If the ball has already left the hand long before you start to jump, just don't jump and turn around and go for the board. Man... and D12 could have been called for goaltending but didn't a couple of times also (not in the Clippers game, just, in other games).
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby Texas Lakers Fan on Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:19 am

Finwë wrote:
Texas Lakers Fan wrote:
Finwë wrote:
fkmikebrown wrote:tonight was the first time i found myself thinking "dwight howard might be overrated"

not 100% i guess

I've been thinking that for a WHILE now.

How he is overrated?

Dwight isn't anywhere near 100 percent and he's still putting up 18 & 12.

He's nowhere near overrated either.

C'mon, I'm watching the games, not just reading ppg and rppg, and if you are too then you see he is very inconsistent. Maybe he wasn't so back in Orlando, but the inconsistencies I'm seeing don't seem to have that much to do with health but with fundamentals/skills.. His hands are terrible, fumbling the ball and getting stripped all the time.. He has no touch around the basket, his FT shooting sucks. IMO he is in no way a #1 offensive option.
Defensively of course he's great but still I feel his D is overrated. I know his teammates aren't helping him at all but some of it is definitely on him. His effort on that end is NOT consistent, and his idea of trying to block every shot sometimes isn't a good one, he over-rotates on D.

Whenever we post him up I have little faith that something good will come out of it. His P&R game also is limited to dunks/layups, he can't really react to the D stepping up because he can't dribble and he can't shoot either.

C'mon man I'm watching the same games as you. I do agree he's been up and down, but I don't agree that the health has nothing to do with Dwight's inconsistencies this season. I think it has alot to do with it. Dwight has never been a guy who had a great postgame. He's always gotten a huge chunk of his points off putback and alley oop dunks. Right now he doesn't have the same lift, but I'm hopeful that it'll come at some point this season. Defensively he doesn't have the lateral quickness to recover and get out on pick and rolls like he did before the surgery. Bottomline is Dwight is a terrific player, but just not dominant right now due to not being anywhere near 100 percent.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby JGC on Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:27 am

^ Oh here we go with the "nothing" argument. :man10:

Of course health has SOMETHING to do with it. But I also don't think you can pin his inconsistencies and at times, inefficiency, primarily on health. Is it a factor? Yes. But even if we agreed he is playing at 80%, didn't you expect better? I sure did.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby wcsoldier81 on Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:31 am

He was basically not too far from crying in his postgame interview

http://www.nba.com/lakers/video/130104Howard
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby Rooscooter on Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:42 am

Howard is a player that has strengths and weaknesses just like any other.... they tend to be at the extremes with him however. He's great or sucks at several facets of the game. He's a great help defender but not so good straight up..... he's a great rebounder but poor at blocking out.... he's nearly unstoppable with the ball close to the basket and not very good when he has to post up and create the opportunity for himself.

The key is to get him in the situations where he's dominant and limit the others..... That my friends is where the coach comes in..... Put him in situations where he's successful..... he gains confidence.....likes to be on the floor..... and guess what?.... Plays better. Force him into a system the doesn't fit.... or exposes his weaknesses and he loses confidence...... doesn't like to be on the floor and plays poorly. Same can be said for Pau to a certain extent although the downward slide of age related issues is also at play with him.

Last night we posted Dwight and he had marginal success early on..... but it opened up the outside for our shooters. Meeks, Kobe and MWP missed wide open 3's in the second quarter..... they were wide open because we pounded the ball early and put the Clips on their heels with the inside game. Now if even 2 of those fell in the second quarter it would have been a different game IMO. What we didn't do well last night was put him in those situations where he gets the ball in a broken floor going to the hoop.... that is where he has no equal in the league.

Overall his effort was there last night and he played some very good help defense for the most part. In fact the 4th quarter defense might have been the best we've played as a team all year....
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby lakersin4 on Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:57 am

last stand wrote:Sounds more like a shot at the roster and how Sacre is the only player who ever cheers

You have ebanks and Jamison pouting

Morris brain dead

Kobe and Nash always quiet

Pau dying inside

Jordan hill thinking about how much longer his hair can get

Meeks wondering why he looks like Jamison

Duhon staring straight ahead counting down the minutes until he has to give high fives

Earl Clark wondering if he's even a basketball player

:man10:
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby lakersin4 on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 pm

I wouldn't doubt if that was a shot at both the lack of chemistry & Kobe. I saw at least 2 plays where Dwight wanted the ball on the roll & looked visibly upset as Kobe created a shot for himself.. I don't think they dislike each other but you don't see them celebrating together after big plays all the time like other teams star players. The chemistry just isn't there.. If it was there between our 2 superstars it would be contagious like it was with Kobe/Shaq & even Kobe/Pau for a while.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby havoc33 on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:31 pm

I'm not liking what I see from Howard's body language in recent weeks. He seems to hang his head very quick if things don't go well early on. And I'm not surprised that Kobe and Howard don't mesh. Jeff Van Gundy said it best some weeks ago; Howard is a guy that likes to clown and have fun, whereas Kobe is the total opposite. Howard is also used to being the nr. 1 option, yet does not take well to criticism, which makes the current situation twice as bad. Obviously winning will help sort these things out, but Howard - Kobe is a way worse match personality wise than Shaq - Kobe ever was.

This game would have been a huuuuuge win for us though, and would have helped build that much needed chemistry. Did you guys see the bench reaction when Kobe hit that last jumper to bring us all they way back? The bench was up SCREAMING, walking on to the court.. Jamison, Duhon.. all those guys.. Too bad we couldn't finish it off.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby Samene on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:37 pm

When Howard gets the ball in the post and then makes a move to the rim (which excludes lobs), it seems like the chances of him turning it into two points is about 25%. Either he gets fouled and doesn't make both FTs, he gets stripped or he blows the shot. That would be a hard stat to track because strips aren't shot attempts and fouls on missed shots aren't shot attempts. Further, correlating 2-for-2 FT outcomes with post initiations would seem like a manual process. Nevertheless, it would shine a meaningful light on the efficiency of our get-it-in-to-Dwight mandate. Btw, I would count an assist out of this scenario as a successful instance.

I think Dwight can be the key to this team but it seems like whenever he dribbles the ball he becomes possessed by the spirit of Kwame Brown. His hands get slippery and he goes blind in one eye.

Back when Kobe recruited Dwight and suggested that Dwight focus on defense while Kobe and Pau handle the scoring, Kobe might have been more prophetic than anyone thought.

While I'm criticizing D12, I might as well point out that, for a guy who has never won a ring, it seems a bit presumptuous for him to pontificate on how the Lakers have to play like the zero-championship Clippers in order to win a ring. Not that he's wrong, mind you. Just that guys with no rings haven't earned that pulpit.

Enough blasphemy. I think Howard can make it all click for the Lakers but I wonder if he has to stop being a stationary post receiver and start being more of a cutter/slasher... mmm... like Blake Griffin is. :man4: Maybe Dwight was right about playing more like the Clippers?
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby Finwë on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:43 pm

JGC wrote:^ Oh here we go with the "nothing" argument. :man10:

Of course health has SOMETHING to do with it. But I also don't think you can pin his inconsistencies and at times, inefficiency, primarily on health. Is it a factor? Yes. But even if we agreed he is playing at 80%, didn't you expect better? I sure did.

Exactly, I didn't say it had "nothing" to do with it. I just said some of the inconsistencies I noticed don't seem to stem from health issues but from a lack of fundamentals/skills
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:46 pm

havoc33 wrote:I'm not liking what I see from Howard's body language in recent weeks. He seems to hang his head very quick if things don't go well early on. And I'm not surprised that Kobe and Howard don't mesh. Jeff Van Gundy said it best some weeks ago; Howard is a guy that likes to clown and have fun, whereas Kobe is the total opposite. Howard is also used to being the nr. 1 option, yet does not take well to criticism, which makes the current situation twice as bad. Obviously winning will help sort these things out, but Howard - Kobe is a way worse match personality wise than Shaq - Kobe ever was.

This game would have been a huuuuuge win for us though, and would have helped build that much needed chemistry. Did you guys see the bench reaction when Kobe hit that last jumper to bring us all they way back? The bench was up SCREAMING, walking on to the court.. Jamison, Duhon.. all those guys.. Too bad we couldn't finish it off.


You're right. Kobe stated after the Portland win that he Dwight played with an, "edge." He likes to see Dwight play like he's the best center in the league. Unfortunately, there have been some games this season where it looked like Dwight was mentally checked out. The focus wasn't there for whatever reason. Nonetheless, I think the poor body language you speak of has to do with a combination of things.

A.) First his is health. Just coming off back surgery, not playing for 6 months, not starting to run until the first day of training camp, and adjusting to playing with a back that was just cut open and operated on have hindered Dwight, and I believe frustrated him because he can't do a lot of the things pre-back surgery Dwight could do.

B.) Not being the first option. Stan Van Gundy alluded to this in the ESPN article. Dwight is used to having the offense go through him. He is used to being the number 1 option offensively on a team. Well, as we know, Kobe is the first option on this team. It's a learning curve.

C.) Our defense is atrocious. We've all heard it; help the helper. Unfortunately, that isn't happening and a lot of of our defensive problems stem from this problem. He's putting forth the effort to help and our team just isn't doing it.

I still think he'll resign and hopefully return to form, but it has been a difficult year for the Lakers Oranizations and fans so far...
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby The Rock on Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:46 pm

Some stats on how he gets his points on situations

% of the time and points per possession on that istuation

Transition
8.10% (1.28 PPP)

Putbacks
33.60% (1.15 PPP)

Spot up
1.27% (0.33 PPP)

Cuts
33.33% (1.29 PPP)

Straight post ups
53.49% (0.79 PPP) (Pau for example is .73 so hes been almost as bad as Pau in the post)

Pick and Roll
9.89% (0.96 PPP)


Isolation
2.02% (1.25 PPP)

Isolation for other laker players
Kobe Bryant: 58.44% (0.97 PPP)
Ron Artest: 22.67% (0.91 PPP)

Darius Morris: 5.04% (0.50 PPP)
Pau Gasol: 2.52% (0.50 PPP)
Chris Duhon: 1.76% (0.86 PPP)
Steve Nash: 1.26% (0.40 PPP)
Jodie Meeks: 1.26% (0.00 PPP)
Antawn Jamison: 0.50% (1.00 PPP)
Jordan Hill: 0.50% (0.00 PPP)
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby Uncle Drew on Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:01 pm

Mike Trudell ‏@LakersReporter
Dwight Howard suffered a minor right shoulder strain last night; he's listed as "probable" for Sunday's game vs. Denver.


Mike Trudell ‏@LakersReporter
Jordan Hill, who sprained his right ankle against the Clippers, is also listed as "probable" for Sunday.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby GoldenKnight on Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:07 pm

Dwight is not 100%

His speed, his vertical leap, his defensive timing, it's all non-existent at this point.
I will not go ahead and criticize him for his effort because mentally he is still fragile due to the surgery & due to not being himself.
I will, however, point out that he does have to find a way to protect the ball because the amount of times he gets stripped is ridiculous, beyond ridiculous actually.
The Lakers need to get him a big man trainer ASAP, why not Kareem?

He probably should not be playing yet but he is at least giving his effort, if not offensively, definitely defensively and nobody can argue against that.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby last stand on Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:52 pm

Health has a factor in his struggles. If your not as strong or explosive your not going to be able to back down the same, finish the same, move the same

He has flaws, he's not Kobe. Hes always been more Lebron. The physical issues are essentially steroids for his flaws. They exacerbate the flaws and make them more obvious. For example

In Orlando when he was within 2 feet he'd just rise up and slam it. This hid his lack of touch around the rim. Now he isn't capable of that right now so he is forced to use the touch he doesn't have

Also in Orlando he was able to wear a center out by constantly getting post position deep due to being faster and stronger than other centers. Now he's forced to post straight up

You would have seen a similar issue with Lebron had Lebron suffered an injury like his 2 years ago. Now he's much more all around but back then there would have been similar issues.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby Center Court on Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:07 pm

Dwight's struggles are a result of a few factors

!) health
2) lack of team chemistry
3) horrible system for his game
4) Kobe's focus on scoring the ball vs moving it for the betterment of the others
5) Pau clogging the paint
6) inconsistent shooters
7) Dwight's pouty attitude
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby Texas Lakers Fan on Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:13 pm

Center Court wrote:Dwight's struggles are a result of a few factors

!) health
2) lack of team chemistry
3) horrible system for his game
4) Kobe's focus on scoring the ball vs moving it for the betterment of the others
5) Pau clogging the paint
6) inconsistent shooters
7) Dwight's pouty attitude

Being frustrated is considered pouty now?
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby Doc Brown on Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:20 pm

Ramona Shelburne ‏@ramonashelburne
I asked Dwight Howard if the Lakers liked each other. He said, "We have play like we like each other."
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite


Ramona Shelburne ‏@ramonashelburne
Dwight: "Even if we don't want to be friends off the court, when we step in between the lines, we have to respect each other."
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite


Ramona Shelburne ‏@ramonashelburne
Dwight: "It really starts off the court. I think you have to have that relationship and that chemistry off the court."
Expand


Somebody doesn't like somebody and that problem needs to be fixed.
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