D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:54 am

therealdeal wrote:And that's Dwight's fault?

He's being asked to challenge every shot, that's our defensive strategy. It's the team's responsibility to help the helper. If and when he goes for the block, someone somewhere needs to give him help. It's that simple.


True. I understand people are pissed we lost and the free throws were horrific but really "Tyson Chandler"? The Lakers looked tired last night their rotations were off and they never recovered. Dwight was rotating and his man was left unchecked. Blaiming him for that is really just close-minded viewing of the game.

What D12 should be killed for today is 2 things. First, his energy and effort in the 2nd and start of the third was crap which was tipped off by the play where the ball went out of bounds but a Denver player ran from behind Dwight and saved it. Dwight was busy complaining. The second is the free throws. His mechanics look a million times better but he hit the back edge of the rim every single time he shot. He makes half his free throws and we have a different game. Now I know Coach D has said that Dwight is still getting winded out there so the B2B was a huge thing for him but during the times he was on the floor he needs energy.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby Lakerjones on Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:07 am

I can't believe people are even bringing up Tyson Chandler over D12. No. Not ever. Please remember that D12 is coming off back surgery, but even at whatever he's at, 75% health or 80% he's still a better player. While there are no total guarantees I think he'll be a lot better next year with more time to recover and to get back into shape. He might not ever be the D12 pre-injury. But he can still be a dominant player.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby khmrP on Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:29 am

his FT shooting was atrocious but anyone wanting some other center always has that "grass always greener" mentality, go to Knicks forum and see how much they care for Chandler :man10: , they'd give their 1st born to get a Howard/Chandler swap :man10:
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby MaddDogg on Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:29 am

Lakerjones wrote:I can't believe people are even bringing up Tyson Chandler over D12. No. Not ever. Please remember that D12 is coming off back surgery, but even at whatever he's at, 75% health or 80% he's still a better player. While there are no total guarantees I think he'll be a lot better next year with more time to recover and to get back into shape. He might not ever be the D12 pre-injury. But he can still be a dominant player.


I hope you are right. I want him to take over shaq's spot but Im just worried from what I seen so far from D12 as a laker.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby khmrP on Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:33 am

therealdeal wrote:And that's Dwight's fault?

He's being asked to challenge every shot, that's our defensive strategy. It's the team's responsibility to help the helper. If and when he goes for the block, someone somewhere needs to give him help. It's that simple.


I agree, the help the helper situation has not improved one bit, the perimiter guys were just getting abused and almost every Den perimiter player could get into the paint anytime they wanted, Howard had to choice but to help off his man and typical Lakers, no helping Howard of his help
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby GoldenKnight on Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:37 am

This is what a healthy Dwight Howard can do, how easily people forget, I have faith that we will see this next season.

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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby Doc Brown on Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:49 am

Dwight in Orlando: Consistent/solid 3 point shooters every where + the entire paint and 2 feet on each side of the key to work with.

Dwight in LA: Inconsistent 3 point shooters (sans Nash) + other players that work best from 18 ft and in (Pau/Kobe/MWP) + maybe half the paint to work with.

If you want to see the Dwight in Orlando, you have to give him the setup to thrive. Healthy or unhealthy D12 is just going to get smothered here by double teams and trips to the opposite of free throw line.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby therealdeal on Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:50 am

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
True. I understand people are pissed we lost and the free throws were horrific but really "Tyson Chandler"? The Lakers looked tired last night their rotations were off and they never recovered. Dwight was rotating and his man was left unchecked. Blaiming him for that is really just close-minded viewing of the game.

What D12 should be killed for today is 2 things. First, his energy and effort in the 2nd and start of the third was crap which was tipped off by the play where the ball went out of bounds but a Denver player ran from behind Dwight and saved it. Dwight was busy complaining. The second is the free throws. His mechanics look a million times better but he hit the back edge of the rim every single time he shot. He makes half his free throws and we have a different game. Now I know Coach D has said that Dwight is still getting winded out there so the B2B was a huge thing for him but during the times he was on the floor he needs energy.

Yeah one thing I noticed is that he allows himself to get frustrated really easily and it throws him off. I'm hoping a healthier Dwight doesn't do this as often, but he was so busy being upset he didn't even go see of the ball was actually going out of bounds. It was as big a bonehead play as I've seen in a while.

And yeah his free throw shooting really threw me off yesterday. EVERY shot was the same... So... take a step back? Stop throwing it as hard? Why was it so difficult for him to figure out how to adjust his shot?
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby Weezy on Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:54 am

Doc Brown wrote:Dwight in Orlando: Consistent/solid 3 point shooters every where + the entire paint and 2 feet on each side of the key to work with.

Dwight in LA: Inconsistent 3 point shooters (sans Nash) + other players that work best from 18 ft and in (Pau/Kobe/MWP) + maybe half the paint to work with.

If you want to see the Dwight in Orlando, you have to give him the setup to thrive. Healthy or unhealthy D12 is just going to get smothered here by double teams and trips to the opposite of free throw line.


Surrounding one guy with 3 point shooters doesn't win championships though, you shouldn't have to change a team that drastically in order to make one guy successful, if he's that good he should be that good in most circumstances.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby therealdeal on Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:58 am

Weezy wrote:
Doc Brown wrote:Dwight in Orlando: Consistent/solid 3 point shooters every where + the entire paint and 2 feet on each side of the key to work with.

Dwight in LA: Inconsistent 3 point shooters (sans Nash) + other players that work best from 18 ft and in (Pau/Kobe/MWP) + maybe half the paint to work with.

If you want to see the Dwight in Orlando, you have to give him the setup to thrive. Healthy or unhealthy D12 is just going to get smothered here by double teams and trips to the opposite of free throw line.


Surrounding one guy with 3 point shooters doesn't win championships though, you shouldn't have to change a team that drastically in order to make one guy successful, if he's that good he should be that good in most circumstances.

He's putting up 16.3/11.9 (leads league)/ 2.3 blocks here with a bum back and a bum shoulder. I think he's doing alright on a macro level. Give him a summer to heal up and get some of his strength back and there's no reason to think he can't score 4 more points a game and pull down a couple more rebounds.

And if we field a team of Nash/Meeks/Jamison/Clark I think he's got more than enough spacing with Jamison and Clark moving and cutting off of him.

We don't need a team full of shooters, we just need a lineup that can make that happen.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby Weezy on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:05 am

I'm just tired of the excuses. Injury, conditioning, the coach not using him right, not enough shooters, excuse after excuse. If he's that good he can do well anywhere. I'm sure 17th season Kobe is not 100%, but he's still great, I'm sure 39 year old Nash is not 100%, but he still great more often than not. Kobe carried a team of scrubs for years, Nash made a good team a great team and won 2 MVP's. I don't want to get back into arguing Dwight, but he's just not that great if he needs perfect team conditions to look his best.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby JLaker17 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:06 am

If he would just hit his FTs he'd be over 20 easily. But free throws are so hard.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby therealdeal on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:07 am

My point is the numbers he's putting up are still great, Weezy. He's leading the league in rebounds, he's in the top 5 in FG% and in blocks. And he's not even 100% right now.

I don't know what more he can do.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby khmrP on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:12 am

therealdeal wrote:My point is the numbers he's putting up are still great, Weezy. He's leading the league in rebounds, he's in the top 5 in FG% and in blocks. And he's not even 100% right now.

I don't know what more he can do.


based on some comments here, 25/15/5, block everything in sight so not only does he need to challenge the guy he had to help off of he should also block his man shot too once the guy he challenges misses the shot, shooting 80% FT's, etc. :man10:
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby Weezy on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:18 am

therealdeal wrote:My point is the numbers he's putting up are still great, Weezy. He's leading the league in rebounds, he's in the top 5 in FG% and in blocks. And he's not even 100% right now.

I don't know what more he can do.


Numbers aren't everything, his rebounding is great, his blocks are nice, but the FG% is misleading at best. What more can he do, be consistent in effort and energy, learn some post moves, and not shoot 21% free throws in any game, EVER. I'm really getting tired of the "not 100%" line also, nobody in the NBA is 100% right now if ever, we don't know if Dwight ever will be again, that's the business, give all you have with where you're at or don't play until you're healthy enough to do so. I've been happy with Dwight overall since the all-star break, but he's got to me more consistent. Mostly I'm annoyed, because what I keep seeing is a guy who we're giving our future who is not a franchise carrying player. Little offensive game, can't make a free throw, and therefore can't be relied on in the clutch. I'm tired of "wait til he's healty, wait til next season, and if not then keep waiting". Eventually his conditioning should be back already, he's been playing since the end of October, and I'm sixk of the continued excuses made for him.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby Weezy on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:22 am

khmrP wrote:
therealdeal wrote:My point is the numbers he's putting up are still great, Weezy. He's leading the league in rebounds, he's in the top 5 in FG% and in blocks. And he's not even 100% right now.

I don't know what more he can do.


based on some comments here, 25/15/5, block everything in sight so not only does he need to challenge the guy he had to help off of he should also block his man shot too once the guy he challenges misses the shot, shooting 80% FT's, etc. :man10:


Yeah that's exactly what I'm asking, the impossible. :man11: If you can't make a legit point or argument, go straight for the extreme in order to mock, you really got me, so clever, smart, and funny. This is not the same as whining about Kobe because he's not putting up 30 with 10 assists on 50+ % shooting, demanding perfection when he's playing great already, Dwight CAN do better.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:59 am

Weezy wrote:I'm just tired of the excuses. Injury, conditioning, the coach not using him right, not enough shooters, excuse after excuse. If he's that good he can do well anywhere. I'm sure 17th season Kobe is not 100%, but he's still great, I'm sure 39 year old Nash is not 100%, but he still great more often than not. Kobe carried a team of scrubs for years, Nash made a good team a great team and won 2 MVP's. I don't want to get back into arguing Dwight, but he's just not that great if he needs perfect team conditions to look his best.


Weez-

I can agree with some of the things you are saying. However, most of what you have been saying seems just rooted in frustration only. The injury thing isn't an excuse it is a fact. Nash has played with a bad back for years so he (and Coach D) knows how to monitor and manage it. No one can be compared to Kobe. In the last couple of weeks he has shown his old self. Yes, his offensive game isn't great but we knew that from forever ago. It isn't going to improve with him being injured all summer. All that being said I 100% agree that he needs to bring the energy. We started playing better as a team when he started playing with energy. I really take part of the issue for last night was fatigue and frustration. For me, I want to see how he responds on Thursday. If we see the same lack of energy on Thursday then I can see the criticism just not for last nights game.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby therealdeal on Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:03 am

Weezy wrote:Numbers aren't everything, his rebounding is great, his blocks are nice, but the FG% is misleading at best. What more can he do, be consistent in effort and energy, learn some post moves, and not shoot 21% free throws in any game, EVER. I'm really getting tired of the "not 100%" line also, nobody in the NBA is 100% right now if ever, we don't know if Dwight ever will be again, that's the business, give all you have with where you're at or don't play until you're healthy enough to do so. I've been happy with Dwight overall since the all-star break, but he's got to me more consistent. Mostly I'm annoyed, because what I keep seeing is a guy who we're giving our future who is not a franchise carrying player. Little offensive game, can't make a free throw, and therefore can't be relied on in the clutch. I'm tired of "wait til he's healty, wait til next season, and if not then keep waiting". Eventually his conditioning should be back already, he's been playing since the end of October, and I'm sixk of the continued excuses made for him.

You just sound really impatient to me right now Weez.

No, there's nobody right now in the league who's "heathy", but there's no one else in the league coming off of back surgery either. There's nobody who's playing 37 minutes a game since November when he hadn't played or even worked out in 6 months. Nobody is where he is at physically.

But in the end, I just don't see what you're seeing anymore. Since the All-Star break he's looked great. More focused, more effort, more in tune with the team and with what we need from him.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby khmrP on Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:04 am

Weezy wrote:
khmrP wrote:
therealdeal wrote:My point is the numbers he's putting up are still great, Weezy. He's leading the league in rebounds, he's in the top 5 in FG% and in blocks. And he's not even 100% right now.

I don't know what more he can do.


based on some comments here, 25/15/5, block everything in sight so not only does he need to challenge the guy he had to help off of he should also block his man shot too once the guy he challenges misses the shot, shooting 80% FT's, etc. :man10:


Yeah that's exactly what I'm asking, the impossible. :man11: If you can't make a legit point or argument, go straight for the extreme in order to mock, you really got me, so clever, smart, and funny. This is not the same as whining about Kobe because he's not putting up 30 with 10 assists on 50+ % shooting, demanding perfection when he's playing great already, Dwight CAN do better.


that wasn't directed at you, if you recall there was this one poster who required those #'s from Howard a few weeks backs otherwise he's a bum, others who get mad at him because his man gets a easy dunk because Howard had to help, the FT well it is what it is, not accetpable but there's nothing more you can do but complain cause after all these years he's actually getting worse at it.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby Weezy on Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:08 am

I think "great" is too far, he looked great for 2 games, then he looked ok/good in one due to foul trouble, some of which is his own fault for taking stupid fouls that he does, always getting tangled up wit guys down low, and then yesterday he was bad overall. So to me that all averages out to good at best. It's not impatience to me, we NEED to see more from Dwight if we're going to be throwing the max at him based on reputation and potential, I need to see consistency, all I'm saying is the injury excuse is not a legit one for the inconsistency. Playing from the end of October til the end of February should be long enough to get back into game shape, the only thing bothering him or holding him back should be the shoulder by now, that's a LOT of games played. I think I would say puffy has my current feelings pointed out more accurately, frustration, but I think most of it is justified.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby Weezy on Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:10 am

khmrP wrote:
Weezy wrote:
khmrP wrote:
therealdeal wrote:My point is the numbers he's putting up are still great, Weezy. He's leading the league in rebounds, he's in the top 5 in FG% and in blocks. And he's not even 100% right now.

I don't know what more he can do.


based on some comments here, 25/15/5, block everything in sight so not only does he need to challenge the guy he had to help off of he should also block his man shot too once the guy he challenges misses the shot, shooting 80% FT's, etc. :man10:


Yeah that's exactly what I'm asking, the impossible. :man11: If you can't make a legit point or argument, go straight for the extreme in order to mock, you really got me, so clever, smart, and funny. This is not the same as whining about Kobe because he's not putting up 30 with 10 assists on 50+ % shooting, demanding perfection when he's playing great already, Dwight CAN do better.


that wasn't directed at you, if you recall there was this one poster who required those #'s from Howard a few weeks backs otherwise he's a bum, others who get mad at him because his man gets a easy dunk because Howard had to help, the FT well it is what it is, not accetpable but there's nothing more you can do but complain cause after all these years he's actually getting worse at it.


Well I apologize then, it's been a bad morning. I really should stop posting when annoyed/pissed off in real life.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby khmrP on Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:17 am

for last nites game, only 2 things I can fault Howard, ft shooting and his offense. The D was there but typical Laker fashion, NEVER EVER help the Helper. I use to hate that fact when it happened to Bynum but now I see it wasn't all him its the entire team, when perimiter guy gets beat they give up on the play and when Howard helps of course his man gets an easy dunk off a pass or off a missed shot, NEVER fails even against bad teams.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby GoldenKnight on Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:43 am

therealdeal wrote:
Weezy wrote:Numbers aren't everything, his rebounding is great, his blocks are nice, but the FG% is misleading at best. What more can he do, be consistent in effort and energy, learn some post moves, and not shoot 21% free throws in any game, EVER. I'm really getting tired of the "not 100%" line also, nobody in the NBA is 100% right now if ever, we don't know if Dwight ever will be again, that's the business, give all you have with where you're at or don't play until you're healthy enough to do so. I've been happy with Dwight overall since the all-star break, but he's got to me more consistent. Mostly I'm annoyed, because what I keep seeing is a guy who we're giving our future who is not a franchise carrying player. Little offensive game, can't make a free throw, and therefore can't be relied on in the clutch. I'm tired of "wait til he's healty, wait til next season, and if not then keep waiting". Eventually his conditioning should be back already, he's been playing since the end of October, and I'm sixk of the continued excuses made for him.

You just sound really impatient to me right now Weez.

No, there's nobody right now in the league who's "heathy", but there's no one else in the league coming off of back surgery either. There's nobody who's playing 37 minutes a game since November when he hadn't played or even worked out in 6 months. Nobody is where he is at physically.

But in the end, I just don't see what you're seeing anymore. Since the All-Star break he's looked great. More focused, more effort, more in tune with the team and with what we need from him.


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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby lakerfan2 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:46 am

khmrP wrote:for last nites game, only 2 things I can fault Howard, ft shooting and his offense. The D was there but typical Laker fashion, NEVER EVER help the Helper. I use to hate that fact when it happened to Bynum but now I see it wasn't all him its the entire team, when perimiter guy gets beat they give up on the play and when Howard helps of course his man gets an easy dunk off a pass or off a missed shot, NEVER fails even against bad teams.


this. culprits? ron and pau. the worst.

i always believed that bynum was doing a fine job in the middle. it's just our perimeter players get beat so easily it's hard for guys like dwight to decide to help without getting the right rotations. it's sad.
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Re: Dwight Discussion:"the legacy,the history..means a lot"(893)

Postby therealdeal on Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:55 am

Weezy wrote:I think "great" is too far, he looked great for 2 games, then he looked ok/good in one due to foul trouble, some of which is his own fault for taking stupid fouls that he does, always getting tangled up wit guys down low, and then yesterday he was bad overall. So to me that all averages out to good at best. It's not impatience to me, we NEED to see more from Dwight if we're going to be throwing the max at him based on reputation and potential, I need to see consistency, all I'm saying is the injury excuse is not a legit one for the inconsistency. Playing from the end of October til the end of February should be long enough to get back into game shape, the only thing bothering him or holding him back should be the shoulder by now, that's a LOT of games played. I think I would say puffy has my current feelings pointed out more accurately, frustration, but I think most of it is justified.

I just don't know what you expect. The only thing holding him back being his shoulder? I don't know how we could say that. Back injuries are tricky at best and dependent totally upon the person. Even if he's not pained by his back anymore, he hasn't had a chance to build muscle in almost a year. All of that strength that he's used to playing with is still back in the development stages.

Right now he's giving us energy and defense and isn't that what we wanted all along? Isn't that what we wanted from Bynum? Energy, defense, rebounding. He's given us that for the last few games.

I don't really understand the frustration anymore. The Dwight before the All-Star break? Absolutely. This Dwight? I just don't see it. He's been working his tail off for us out there. I can understand frustration with his free throws though... that's unacceptable.
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