Defending Kareem

Defending Kareem

Postby Laker brain on Sun Jun 22, 2003 4:46 pm

Do y'all have a bad memory?
Less PT equal less contribution.
Rookie Fisher Avg 3.9 Pts a game, (11.5 minutes per game)
Rookie Kobe Avg around 7-8 pts per game, (15.4 mpg)
2nd year George Avg 3.1 Pts per game, in (10.4 mpgg)
Rookie Ruben Patterson avg 2.7 pts per game
3rd year( Didn't play enough as rookie) Tyrone Lue avg 3.4 pts per game in 12+ mpg
Rookie Pargo Avg 2.5 pts per game (10.4 mpg)
Rookie Rush Avg 3 pts per game (11.5 Minutes per game)

Just because you have a bad rookie year doesn't mean anything, Devean's first two years were horrible.

To say Kareem is garbage, is like saying Michael Redd was Garbage as a rookie, he played so little and avg 2.2 pts a game.
Even Gary Payton as a rookie who got about 30 minutes of PT only scored 7.2 pts per game.
Rush gets 11 minutes of PT, if he played 30 minutes he'd score about 9pts a game as a rookie.
Rush has more scoring potential than Pargo, I wont say he has better D or is as quick, but if y'all give so much love to Slava with "O" and no "D", I picture y'all be giving Rush more props in the future.
I think Pargo will be good also, but I think if the Lakers had to give up either Pargo or Rush, it would be Pargo.
I think Pargo would go because Rush puts up more points, in the playoffs Rush scored more points in less playing time than Jannero.
Rush is a Scoring Guard, give him time... Trust me... He is worth the developing. Phil needs to give him time to prove himself, he hasn't yet, but his future is bright, just like Pargo's... If it takes George three years to get it, why don't y'all give Rush a chance.
The reason why George had 2 bad years was because he was playing backup forg
Rookie Pargo Avg 2.5 pts per game (10.4 mpg)
Rookie Rush Avg 3 pts per game (11.5 Minutes per game)

Just because you have a bad rookie year doesn't mean anything, Devean's first two years were horrible.

To say Kareem is garbage, is like saying Michael Redd was Garbage as a rookie, he played so little and avg 2.2 pts a game.
Even Gary Payton as a rookie who got about 30 minutes of PT only scored 7.2 pts per game.
Rush gets 11 minutes of PT, if he played 30 minutes he'd score about 9pts a game as a rookie.
Rush has more scoring potential than Pargo, I wont say he has better D or is as quick, but if y'all give so much love to Slava with "O" and no "D", I picture y'all be giving Rush more props in the future.
I think Pargo will be good also, but I think if the Lakers had to give up either Pargo or Rush, it would be Pargo.
I think Pargo would go because Rush puts up more points, in the playoffs Rush scored more points in less playing time than Jannero.
Rush is a Scoring Guard, give him time... Trust me... He is worth the developing. Phil needs to give him time to prove himself, he hasn't yet, but his future is bright, just like Pargo's... If it takes George three years to get it, why don't y'all give Rush a chance.
The reason why George had 2 bad years was because he was playing backup for shaw & kobe, the same predicament rush is in. With Shaw out look for his PT to rise...
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Postby LakersGyrl2003 on Sun Jun 22, 2003 5:46 pm

I really respect u for posting this up. I don't know why peeps on here see him as garbage. I'm always on here defending him, cuz I KNOW he'll work to improve his game to stay with the Lakers. Just like how Kobe had that spark after his rookie season. But I just hope he can keep his composure, and I hope he's not playin PG if his ball handlin skills, and anticipation havent improved. I have all the faith in the world for him.
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Postby Kobe_One_Kenobi_8 on Sun Jun 22, 2003 5:59 pm

I'm not doubting that Kareem has the offensive game that will become good someday. With more playing time, he will eventually score the points. His defense is the real problem. In Missouri he didn't play "D" and he doesn't have the skill to play tenacious D in the NBA.

Even though Kobe, Devean, D-Fish didn't play a lot as a rookie, they still showed flashes of playing great D during their rookie years. Which turned out to be true, since today all are terrific defensive players.

I just don't like one-dimensional players. Kareem is a one-dimensional player. If Kareem's offense in not workign a particular day, then he's basically useless, since from all indications last year he showed no skill in playing the D. HE IS A DEFENSIVE LIABILITY.

The Lakers should have picked Tayshaun Prince. He can shoot the outside as good as Rush, and can also play great D with his long wingspan. He can block numerous shots as a small forward.

Prince didn't have a lot of minutes as a rookie either, but when he finally got his chances in the playoffs, he took advantage of it.
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Postby Laker brain on Sun Jun 22, 2003 6:27 pm

Lets say Kareem Rush never learns to play Defense, but is able to give you 12 pts a night for the Lakers, it kind off reminds me of the Bulls with Toni Kukoc, (No Defense, but can shoot), But I played for my High School and coach taught us that Defense is easier to learn than offense, Its true, it took me from age 7 to 13 (6 years) to learn how to shoot good, it only took me 2 years to learn to play Defense age 15-17 yrs.
The thing about Defense is you have to work at it, and if Rush works with it I don't see why he can't develop that skill.
But I have to agree if he doesn't improve in 3 years then he should go, but give him time to prove himself.

If we would get Dwayne Wade, he would do no better playing behind Kobe.
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Postby Kobe_One_Kenobi_8 on Sun Jun 22, 2003 6:35 pm

I'm just debating that skill wise he doesn't show the ability to play D like Kobe, Devean, and Fisher as rookies.

I know that defense can be taught and I'm hoping that Kareem will learn. But learning to play D can only take you so far. You also have to have the skill to play D, like Kobe, Devean, and Fisher.

Hopefully, he will get better. I will alwys take a Kareem Rush that will get me 12 a game, and is adequate enough to play D.
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Postby Laker brain on Sun Jun 22, 2003 6:57 pm

If the Lakers had gotten tashaun prince, he would play behind George and Fox. He wouldn't be the guy to go in and score like he did with the Pistons (a team with bad offense,) ,he did most of his dirty work posting shorter guys up, that is not the way you run Tex's system, George scores his points from open 20 footer, 3 pters, and fast break points (seldom seen because of the offense), Tayshaun has an ok shot, and is taller than George, but he would have to learn the Tri, and Do you think he would have did the same thing in LA, when you have a system pro Shaq and Kobe. Uh uh........No........No.........No, Tayshaun in the regular season avg 3.3 points per game as a rookie, in the playoffs he played over 25 minutes a game... because they had too, Billups got hurt, so who scores other than RIP Hamilton???, Ben....Nope, I have to disagree with you there Kenobi, Tashaun would have been on the same level as rush, although Tashaun has more Defensive potential than Rush, because of his length, he wouldn't get to play major minutes with Phil, although he would have played in the play-offs when Fox got injured.
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Postby Laker brain on Sun Jun 22, 2003 7:00 pm

Kenobi, when you say skill, do you mean intelligence or athleticism... remember John Stockton, not much of an athlete at 40 but still played good D.

Please define Skill for me the way you mean it.
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Postby #1_Kobe_fan on Sun Jun 22, 2003 8:27 pm

.... DO YOU KNOW WHY RUSH DIDN't GET THE PLAYING TIME?...
BECAUSE HE SUCKS!!!! HE HAD HIS CHANCE THROUGHOUT THE SEASON TO PROVE HIS WORTH AND FAILED MISERABLY. IF HE EVEN HAD A CLUE PHIL WOULD HAVE GIVEN HIM MORE TIME. LETS FACE IT, IF YOUR A BIG NAME IN COLLEGE DOESN"T MEAN THEY WILL BE SUCCESSFUL IN THE NBA. YOU CAN GIVE STATS ALL DAY AND THE BOTTOM LINE IS RUSH SUCKS!!. HE HAS SO MUCH MISSING IN HIS GAME!!! I DON'T KNOW HOW HE DID SO WELL IN COLLEGE? HE CAN"T HANDLE THE BALL!!! HE CAN CREATE HIS OWN SHOT!!! HE CAN'T PASS!!!
HE CAN"T REBOUND!!! HE CAN'T DEFEND!! YOU CAN'T EVEN COMPARE HIM TO KOBE BECAUSE KOBE WAS DIRECT FROM HIGHSCHOOL!!!!
FISHER PLAYED DIVISION 2 BALL!!!! WTF!!!! RUSH WAS PLAYING WITH THE BEST PLAYERS IN COLLEGE AND HE STILL SUCKS!!!! DON'T GIVE ME STATS CAUSE THE ONE CATEGORY THATS MISSING FROM YOUR NUMBERS IS HEART!!!! KOBE AND FISHER HAS IT..... AND EVEN PARGO...... TO BAD RUSH DOESN'T.....
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Postby Laker brain on Sun Jun 22, 2003 8:36 pm

Rush is learning a new position in the nba, he usually played the 3 in college, Rush will make y'all eat ya words in 2 years mark my words.
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Postby #1_Kobe_fan on Sun Jun 22, 2003 8:36 pm

I don't like one dimesional players either.... but if I had to pick between a one dimensional players
TRACY MURRAY (prime) or RUSH (potential)

I would take TRACY MURRAY...

MURRAY would light him up light a christmas tree!!!
MURRAY played for us even after just undergoing HIP SURGERY!!! I don't blame him if he was not of any help to the team but I admire his effort it showed some heart. Very, very few athletes even attempt to play sports, let alone at the highest level there is, after undergoing that kind of operation.

LOL... don't get me wrong... RUSH belongs in a LEAGUE... CBA LEAGUE
after his contract ends with the LAKERS.
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Postby #1_Kobe_fan on Sun Jun 22, 2003 8:38 pm

If he makes me eat my words ..... he won't be doing it in a LAKERS JERSEY thats for sure.
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Postby Laker brain on Sun Jun 22, 2003 8:44 pm

Tracy over Rush... man, where is your judgement, I hope you never become a nba scout.
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Postby #1_Kobe_fan on Sun Jun 22, 2003 10:32 pm

did you ever see MURRAY play in college?...
Murray in his prime:
shot is smoother..... has longer range in his shot... he averaged nearly 20 points a game once in washington . Why else do you think PHIL wanted him with the LAKERS.. PHIL is not STUPID he took a risk at a player which he once knew back in the chicago days and He knew MURRAY was very good offensively at his prime. MURRAY was lighting people up back in the days.... he had quite a few 30 points barrage in the east even games against the bulls. At the time when WEBBER was with the WIZARDS... MURRAY was their 3rd option!!!! can you say the same for RUSH? It is too bad that Murray required a hip surgery prior in becoming a LAKER.

So, LAKER BRAIN... if you were a scout.. I take it you would draft RUSH.
What a fvcking joke. He has yet to prove himself. Even though MURRAY's carreer may have been average at best... it is still more than you can say for RUSH. RIGHT NOW.... RUSH has not done [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] since he stepped foot in the NBA....
MY QUESTION WAS THIS...... which one dimensional player would you take?... MURRAY or RUSH?....
I said MURRAY because of what he has proven!!!

OBVIOUSLY you chose RUSH over Murray. *LAUGH OUT Fvcking LOUD*.. and you want to be a scout?... WHAT A Fvcking JOKE!!!! and you question my JUDGEMENT?... LOL
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Postby Laker brain on Mon Jun 23, 2003 12:28 am

I didn't catch the "prime" part, yes I would agree that Murray is better.
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Postby Kobe_One_Kenobi_8 on Mon Jun 23, 2003 12:33 am

L-brain,

I made my comparisons between Prince and Rush in terms of who took adavantage of their opportunities in the best manner when it was given to them. Both Prince and Rush had the same basic OFFENSIVE numbers in the regular season like you stated. However, what separates Prince to Rush is that Prince had the ability to block shots with his length. He has another value in his overall game than just OFFENSE. Also, when both the Lakers and the Pistons suffered through injuries in the playoffs, Carlisle had enough confidence in Prince to play him where he produced and took advantage of his chances. However, Rush did not take advantage of the minutes he had, and was passed over by Pargo in terms of minutes during the playoffs. The reason Pargo played is because he can control the ball, be a PEST AT DEFENSE, and also shot the ball in the clutch. Remember the comeback of the Lakers in Game 5 of the Spurs series. Pargo made a clutch shot that pulled the Lakers close at the end. Pargo brought more value ot the table with his tenacity at both ends of the court.

To me Rush seems to be content for the man he is defending to come to him and dictate play. While Pargo attacks the ball handler and become aggressive.

In reference to your question of defensive skill, whether it is intelligence or athleticism, I have to say from the LOOK OF WHAT I SAW LAST YEAR, AND ONLY LAST YEAR that he doesn't possess either. Athletically, he can't keep up with the man he is guarding and gets fooled a lot.

I know that you are going to say that intelligence is gained through experience and I agree with you. That with proper coaching he will learn proper techniques. But the ball handler and become aggressive.

In reference to your question of defensive skill, whether it is intelligence or athleticism, I have to say from the LOOK OF WHAT I SAW LAST YEAR, AND ONLY LAST YEAR that he doesn't possess either. Athletically, he can't keep up with the man he is guarding and gets fooled a lot.

I know that you are going to say that intelligence is gained through experience and I agree with you. That with proper coaching he will learn proper techniques. But I'm not arguing with you with that point.

I'M COMPARING THE TENACITY AND DETERMINATION OF PLAYERS LIKE KOBE, FISHER, AND DEVEAN TO PLAY DEFENSE DURING THEIR ROOKIE YEAR, COMPARED TO RUSH. FACT IS THAT RUSH DOES NOT HAVE THOSE QUALITIES. HE DOES NOT HAVE THE FIRE TO PLAY D. AT TIMES I SEE THAT HE IS JUST SATISFIED IN PLAYING JUST THE OFFENSIVE END.

YOU CAN'T TEACH TENACITY AND FIRE.
YOU CAN TEACH TECHNIQUE, BUT NOT THE DRIVE TO STOP YOUR MAN.
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Postby Laker brain on Mon Jun 23, 2003 12:40 am

Tracy never avg 20 pts a game, his highest was 16.2 pts a game, he is a better shooter so far, but in all fairness, If I had to choose between Murray and Rush both at their primes, I choose Rush, because, I know what Murray has done, it doesn't impress me, even though he has provn himself more than Rush, I remember Murry being avg 5 pts a game as a rookie, and he got time and scored more and became most improved player, I'm hoping Rush can do the same.
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Postby Snakell Beast on Tue Jun 24, 2003 1:39 am

Well, in all fairness to LB, though I don't like Kareem I must admit that for all we know, his issues could be the same as Slava's...lack of PT. When we give him a real test, then we will see what he is made of, but if he doesn't show more strides in the next season or two, we need to think about dumping him...
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Postby LakersGyrl2003 on Tue Jun 24, 2003 12:44 pm

How can u say, Murray in his prime was way better than Rush? Kareem is gonna be in his 2nd year in the NBA, and Murray has had way more PT, and more seasons than Kareem. So that remark isn't even fair to Kareem, cuz he doesn't even have the experience compared to Murray. Prince played well in the playoffs vs the Magic when he actually got time. U gotta remember that he was never played in the season, and he stepped up when he was given PT. Kareem hasn't even had that yet. He only had like less than 10 mins in the playoffs, and that's wrong.

LB ur right... We all know what Murray has done, and we can't expect him to get any better. But with Kareem we can. He's young, and improving.
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Postby #1_Kobe_fan on Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:17 am

Tell me what is he IMPROVING ON? keeping the SEAT WARM FOR KOBE?
He had ALL SEASON (82 GAMES) and the PLAYOFFS to earn PLAYING time!!
PLAYING TIME IS EARNED!! It is not given. He earns playing time in PRACTICES and EVEN GARBAGE GAMES!!! OBVIOUSLY he hasn't performed well enough in PHIL's EYES. Don't TAKE away what PRINCE accomplished this YEAR. He EARNED his Playing Time... So he Deserved to Play. RUSH did the complete OPPOSITE. RUSH had all the opportunites HANDED to Him during the ENTIRE SEASON!!!! but he FAILED MISERABLY!!! KOBE could not even call in sick because RUSH could not fill in. Maybe if Kobe could have had a few days off to REST his tired shoulder he would not have suffered his injury during the playoffs resulting in an OFF SEASON SURGERY. Don't give me this RUSH is a Rookie business. He had ALL SUMMER LAST YEAR/ALL SEASON THIS YEAR/and the PLAYOFFS to step up..... but NOOOOOO he didn't.
This is why we need to SIGN a VET (POSEY) as KOBE's back-up and Draft a SG in the DRAFT (HANSEN or OUTLAW both tweeners) and RELEASE or Trade RUSH. Did you watch any of the GAMES this year?... did you see how LOST Rush looks out there... not to mention the lack of intensity on his face when he plays Defense and Offense? I really don't get WHERE YOU SEE HIS POTENTIAL... Tell me exactly what is his POTENTIAL? WHAT DID HE DO THAT MADE YOU GO...... HMMM "NOW THIS GUYS HAS POTENTIAL" Is it when HE PLAYED MATADOR DEFENSE?... or WHEN HE HANDS THE BALL TO THE OPPOSING TEAM?... no better yet WHEN HE CAN'T GET OFF HIS OWN SHOT..... no no... its WHEN HE IS SCARED [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] on the COURT..... All I see is that BLANK STARE he gives as he gazes onto the camera .... RIDICULOUS!!!
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Postby #1_Kobe_fan on Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:28 am

I am Hard on him because we only had ONE pick in the Draft last year and we wasted it on him. Management had high hopes and Rush could not deliver.
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Postby Laker brain on Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:36 am

Rush couldn't get PT because Kobe plays 40 min a game.
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Postby #1_Kobe_fan on Wed Jun 25, 2003 3:44 am

IF Rush was playing well KOBE would've moved to the SMALL FORWARD spot in place of GEORGE when he was out. Instead, what happened?...
Phil went with Shaw in the Backcourt with Fisher....
Please .... why is everyone defending Rush?.. everyone has an excuse for his failure. There is no one to blame for Rush's deficiencies but himself.
If he would have played well when given Playing time... then of course he would have earn more minutes... but the fact of the matter is... he SUCKED everytime he was on the court.....PERIOD!!
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Postby Laker brain on Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:45 am

Pargo had bad games as well, and I don't see you mentioning those games, I think you're a little bias and you need to give him a chance.
Pargo was the only point guard other than Fisher, when Phil made subs, Pargo played.

My question is other than Fisher who did we have as a PG
Answer... Nobody If you say Shaw he is really a SG Kobe is a SG, Devean played the 3, but he can play the 2 as well, and Rush is a SG, that means the lakers have many players at the SG positon, but do not have many at the 1 spot. We're lucky Fisher didn't get injured, then we would only have Pargo, and Shaw would have to play out his position.

Kareem didn't play so much just like Devean his 1st and 2nd year, we cannot say Kareem SUCKS, because he hasn't played, If you want to label someone that suck make sure he's been in the league for a while.
S. Walker is sad and this can be seen, but back to rush... You cannot say he is good or bad same for pargo, you have to see them with adequate PT, just like Jermaine Oneal and Michaell Redd, give them time.
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Postby Kobe_One_Kenobi_8 on Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:01 pm

#1Kobefan,

I agree that everytime Kareem gets into the floor, he has that stupid BLANK STARE in his face. WHAT THE HECK IS HE LOOKING FOR??????

I GUESS HE'S LOOKING FOR THE DEFENSE THAT HE WILL NEVER HAVE!!!!!!!

He appears lost in the floor and he has that look in his face.
Atleast, Pargo comes in, even if he has limited minutes, and plays with immediate confidence. Unlike Kareem.
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Postby #1_Kobe_fan on Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:51 pm

I agree with you KOBEONE.... that stare of his is so funny.. looks like a lost puppy....LOL


LakerBrain,... so you are saying if a rookie does not perform to his expectations the first year we cannot say he is a BAD player because he is a rookie. However, If your a rookie... like Stoudmire/Ginobli/Prince.. who had stellar rookie years can we say that they are any GOOD?... it is their rookie year... they might just be getting lucky. So in other words if your a rookie who performs well or bad we can't really comment on him because they are rookies.
I do remember when we drafted PEELER he had an effective rookie year.
When VanExel was a rookie he had an effective year backing up Threat at he time. I could go on and on about Rookies who made impact their first year. It is usually a players rookie year that determines what type of player he will be in the NBA. I remember in ELDENS Campbell rookie year he made some spectacular plays for us back then when Magic gave him some lobs. We can even say this about Divacs..... Heck we can say if about FISHER.... at least he played HARD NOSE DEFENSE. George was different because he came from DIVISION 3 basketball!!! thats like a community college!!!! Of course he wouldn't get playing time because the level of competition he played in was low. RUSH played DIVISION 1 against the top collegiate players in the country.......I can go on and on .....etc..etc...etc.. but the bottom line is RUSH was BUST in his rookie season. IF his ROOKIE season is a TALE TELL look at what we can expect of him during his NBA career then.. I would rather pass on him.
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