Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby LTLakerFan on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:30 am

Everyone has said Phil did not do what ONLY Woj seems to have said. This is such a huge moment in Lakerland and really it didn't get a lot a lot of discussion. If it was true, it and Phil's big salary plus Jimbo's pride.....you could see why they did what they did. Well and maybe an ailing Buss did want to see a more entertaining system.

But if the "humiliate Jim" part Woj actually got bad insider info on (no one else went with that story, correct??) then yeah it's on both Buss Sr and Jr. But Jerry should have known better basketball wise with the ages and personnel on this roster.


Lakers resist Phil Jackson's power grab
Adrian Wojnarowski

"Between the hours of Mike Brown's firing and a meeting on Saturday morning with history's most accomplished coach, Lakers general manager Mitch Kupchak privately told people there was one candidate: Phil Jackson.

Jackson wanted to humiliate Lakers vice president Jim Buss far more than he wanted to coach the team. He wanted significant allowances on travel, coaching duties and an ability to veto player personnel moves that didn't fit his vision. With an unprecedented 11 coaching championships, Jackson had every right to make unprecedented demands. He doesn't have the right to be surprised when the Lakers rejected them and hired a pliable, cheaper coach in Mike D'Antoni.

"Phil wanted Jim Buss to walk away with his tail between his legs," one source with knowledge of the discussions told Yahoo! Sports. "He thought he had time to still negotiate with them, and see how much they would give him."

Now, the Lakers are going out of their way to spare Jackson the embarrassment of his overreaching, but this is pointless spin. They're working with him to sell the public that he hadn't asked for too much, that somehow the franchise chose D'Antoni over Jackson on sheer merit. It's noble, but laughable. Jackson heard those chants in the Staples Center and never believed the Lakers had the guts to call his bluff before circling back to him on Monday.

"Phil's assistants convinced him that they had his back on the concerns [Jackson] had about his load as head coach, and he was ready to get a deal done on Monday," a source with knowledge of the talks said. "But this was about Jim Buss giving him a royal you-know-what in the end."

If Jackson was ever to return to coaching to chase a championship in a preferred locale, this job offered him the opportunity. His instincts were wrong on how to play these negotiations and it blew up on him. The Lakers could live with making Jackson the highest-paid coach in the NBA again, but Jackson had to come back in full, and the Lakers were wise to have uncertainties.

Jackson listened to Kobe Bryant gush and gush about him on Friday night, and believed the strongest voice in the locker room would accept only his return the bench. It was a mistake. Bryant preferred Jackson, but he has a history with D'Antoni back to his childhood growing up in Italy and across several years of USA Basketball. Bryant and D'Antoni have a relationship, a trust, and that's somewhere to start once they're thrust together."
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby revgen on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:33 am

I didn't want Phil at the time due to that very reason. I wanted Sloan.
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:34 am

^Sloan would have been a MUCH better fit. Although, Adelman would have too right after Phil left...
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby khmrP on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:35 am

well considering Phil interest in any other coaching position is lacking but now he is being tied to possibly a FO job with the Kings/Sonic team, maybe Woj wasn't far off in that Phil wanted FO input/power. Even West mentioned that Phil wanted controll of the FO as well during his tenure.
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby LTLakerFan on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:36 am

revgen wrote:I didn't want Phil at the time due to that very reason. I wanted Sloan.


Are you saying that you believe Phil did go for the huge power grab and part time duties regarding some road trips and wanting to stick it to Jim, basketball reasoning aside?
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby Lakerjones on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:38 am

revgen wrote:I didn't want Phil at the time due to that very reason. I wanted Sloan.


^^ I thought if they could somehow make it work out, then Phil should get the first nod. But I was always skeptical for these exact same reasons - the bad blood between him and Jim Buss.

My preferred choice in terms of system/personnel fit and attitude towards defense was always Sloan as well. I made many posts about it here.

To me one of the biggest gaffes about the whole hiring process was that they seemed to have already picked D' Antoni to begin with. Sloan said on record that the Lakers didn't even give him a call for the position. They also didn't call Nate McMillan. Given how that weekend went down it really was kind of a war with Phil and the fans. They either just sat down with him to appease the fans, or they wanted to gauge what it would take to bring him back. But regardless, the way it ended was a big F you to both Phil and the fans.

Instead of settling for a guy like D' Antoni they should have actually conducted a true coaching search with more qualified candidates (and not DUNLEAVY!!). They put themselves into this do or die situation. They could have actually met with Phil's agent on Monday as scheduled and seen what the ACTUAL demands were.

If those CONTRACT demands, not just verbal sparring, were too high, then they could and should have moved on to other interviews like Sloan and McMillan. Really, there's no excuse for how they ran this thing. Zero excuse. They made their own bed, sadly. And they dragged the fans and it seems Dwight Howard along with them.

Ultimately it was a BAD way to do business. There's no getting around that. And they are dealing with the repercussions right now.

This isn't even getting into how bad a fit D' Antoni seemed to be, nor his past disastrous year with the Knicks - both of which should have been warning signs against that hiring just on a coaching level.
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby phoenixrisingla on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:39 am

Good question. The details on what actually occurred on those few days seems pretty vague, my guess is it was somewhere in the middle.

I've heard reports that the travel demands were categorically false. I have heard that he was asking for a minority ownership in the team however. I can understand wanting to protect your product, but maybe having the most legendary coach in the game as a minority owner might not have been the end of the world...

Anyway, we may never know exactly what happened, but based on what I've seen from management/ownership lately, maybe thats a good thing for my blood pressure. :boxing1:
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby 432J on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:41 am

at the time my thoughts were this:

phil is demanding ALOT but with his credentials and the thought of having him coached this stacked team, i didn't see anything wrong with it. let him stick it to jim buss all he wants, it'll make the team win and buss deserves it all and more anyways. i was 101% sure phil was going to get hired, surely they wouldnt pass over the GOAT regardless of what he's demanding

i wake up the next morning and see dan tony has been hired, this team has been complete sh*t since that day
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby revgen on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:43 am

LTLakerFan wrote:
revgen wrote:I didn't want Phil at the time due to that very reason. I wanted Sloan.


Are you saying that you believe Phil did go for the huge power grab and part time duties regarding some road trips and wanting to stick it to Jim, basketball reasoning aside?


I believe Phil was only interested in coaching for 1 or 2 seasons and eventually wanted to move up into the FO, similar to what Riley is doing in Miami. I don't think it has anything to do with "embarassing the Buss family" or anything like that.
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby LTLakerFan on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:44 am

I remember my own opinion at the time was that I totally believed Phil was capable of doing that and waaay overreached thinking he was a lock when they came back to him again. And correction on my part, no it was still no excuse to do the RUSH hiring on Dan when he could not even walk at the time and had just come off disastrous results with his Knicks coaching job.
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby Lakerjones on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:47 am

LTLakerFan wrote:I remember my own opinion at the time was that I totally believed Phil was capable of doing that and waaay overreached thinking he was a lock when they came back to him again. And correction on my part, no it was still no excuse to do the RUSH hiring on Dan when he could not even walk at the time and had just come off disastrous results with his Knicks coaching job.


^^ Absolutely.
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby GNC on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:49 am

432J wrote:at the time my thoughts were this:

phil is demanding ALOT but with his credentials and the thought of having him coached this stacked team, i didn't see anything wrong with it. let him stick it to jim buss all he wants, it'll make the team win and buss deserves it all and more anyways. i was 101% sure phil was going to get hired, surely they wouldnt pass over the GOAT regardless of what he's demanding

i wake up the next morning and see dan tony has been hired, this team has been complete sh*t since that day


We have been complete crap way before then too(aside from those few games with Bernie).
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby 432J on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:52 am

GNC wrote:
432J wrote:at the time my thoughts were this:

phil is demanding ALOT but with his credentials and the thought of having him coached this stacked team, i didn't see anything wrong with it. let him stick it to jim buss all he wants, it'll make the team win and buss deserves it all and more anyways. i was 101% sure phil was going to get hired, surely they wouldnt pass over the GOAT regardless of what he's demanding

i wake up the next morning and see dan tony has been hired, this team has been complete sh*t since that day


We have been complete crap way before then too(aside from those few games with Bernie).

i know but it's been just terrible under dan tony aside from that little win streak
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby Lakerjones on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:53 am

Lakerjones wrote:
LTLakerFan wrote:I remember my own opinion at the time was that I totally believed Phil was capable of doing that and waaay overreached thinking he was a lock when they came back to him again. And correction on my part, no it was still no excuse to do the RUSH hiring on Dan when he could not even walk at the time and had just come off disastrous results with his Knicks coaching job.


^^ Absolutely.


They had one opportunity to fix the coaching situation. They did the difficult part of canning Mike Brown. There was no timetable necessary to get a new coach. They had TWO head coaches behind Mike Brown in Eddie Jordan and Bernie. That was what we all talked about in the summer. That even if Brown couldn't do the job or got fired we had two capable head coaches behind him on the bench that could do in a pinch. Most of us actually thought those two coaches were better than Brown to begin with.

There was no need to rush. This was the most important decision that the FO had all year. More than whether to trade Pau or anything like that. This was the makeup for the Brown hire. This was the correction.

Instead of interviewing the body of candidates they went for an immediate gut instinct hire. And it was another bad one. Just like the Brown gut instinct hire turned out to be a bad one. They did the same thing - but this time with MUCH higher stakes.

Instead of making things better they have actually made things worse. It's almost incomprehensible. Again, they have no one but themselves (Jim and Jerry) to blame here. And I'm not saying Phil was absolutely the answer. But they didn't even find out what the answer was. They didn't interview any other candidates.
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby Lakerjones on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:57 am

GNC wrote:
432J wrote:at the time my thoughts were this:

phil is demanding ALOT but with his credentials and the thought of having him coached this stacked team, i didn't see anything wrong with it. let him stick it to jim buss all he wants, it'll make the team win and buss deserves it all and more anyways. i was 101% sure phil was going to get hired, surely they wouldnt pass over the GOAT regardless of what he's demanding

i wake up the next morning and see dan tony has been hired, this team has been complete sh*t since that day


We have been complete crap way before then too(aside from those few games with Bernie).


True, but isn't that damning of the hiring process? Brown was the wrong coach. D' Antoni was also the wrong coach. They were both terrible hires. And they were both hired poorly - i.e. the actual hiring process was a laugher in both cases.
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby Nikez on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:59 am

Im already on the record as saying if somebody was banging my sister, that would come above all else and I too would be saying HELL NO to working with that someone.

Putting that aside, most lakers fans DID want phil to return mostly in part due to the media telling us a deal was "all but done". Most lakers fans after the hiring said that even though phil wasn't the choice, they could have gave other guys a call, interview or a chance at the job. Now fans are madder than ever at hiring given the huge disappointment this season has been.

Hindsight is 20/20. There were some pretty convincing reasons that should hire mike as our head coach. Obviously because of Steve Nash but also like Woj pointed out kobe has a history with Dantony as well so that's our 2 main leaders endorsing this coach. And there were definitely many more lakers fans back then who agreed with this paragraph.

However, what many fans believe (what I agree with as well) is Jerrys vision of a more uptempo entertaining brand of basketball can't just magically happen by hiring a coach known for that style of play. You want to build a championship team like that? Fine. Take the time for one to get the right assistants, why Mike Browns guys are still here baffles me. Then go out and get some more athletes and shooters to make the personnel work for the coach. This is really why I can't blame our current situation all on Dantony (his biggest shortfall is that he definitely needs to find a way or find someone who knows how to implement a REAL DEFENSE). The blame is on the buss's (jerry and jim alike) for not properly executing their new vision.
Before long, someone recognized Phil Jackson sitting in the front seat, and then the rocks began to fly. Revelers pelted the bus and shook it, mocking the Lakers at their lowest moment.


It was painful,” Lakers forward Pau Gasol(notes) said. “It is a feeling that I want to keep in my mind for every single minute that I’m out there playing them.
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby D.B. Cooper on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:05 pm

I know there was a report that in order to keep D12 in Orl they wanted to get Phil, but he made the same request. Not travel on extended RT and after a year or two he would let Shaw coach and Phil would become GM/ President of the Magic.

As far as the Lakers, I was shocked with the Tony hire but I gave it a chance ONLY because I figured Nash would run things smoothly. One way to fix this is bite the bullet and make Eddie Jordan the HC and go back to the motion offense. I think you still trade Gasol because his D vs smaller quicker PF is awful. Try to get a bench with the Gasol trade(easier said than done, I know) and hopefully keep the 2014 plan. Of course if you do get a bench dump Morris, Ebanks, Sacre and Duhon or Blake.
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby khmrP on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:08 pm

D.B. Cooper wrote:I know there was a report that in order to keep D12 in Orl they wanted to get Phil, but he made the same request. Not travel on extended RT and after a year or two he would let Shaw coach and Phil would become GM/ President of the Magic.

As far as the Lakers, I was shocked with the Tony hire but I gave it a chance ONLY because I figured Nash would run things smoothly. One way to fix this is bite the bullet and make Eddie Jordan the HC and go back to the motion offense. I think you still trade Gasol because his D vs smaller quicker PF is awful. Try to get a bench with the Gasol trade(easier said than done, I know) and hopefully keep the 2014 plan. Of course if you do get a bench dump Morris, Ebanks, Sacre and Duhon or Blake.


dude, everybody keep repeating OFFENSE isn't the biggest problem, going back to that horrible O would only make things worse, these perimiter guys dont know how to move for crap with out the ball.
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby Nikez on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:12 pm

^^^

Seriously, were good enough to put up enough points to keep us in games. Our defense is taking us out of games. If we played lockdown defense the rest of the season I would't have a hard time seeing us in the finals.
Before long, someone recognized Phil Jackson sitting in the front seat, and then the rocks began to fly. Revelers pelted the bus and shook it, mocking the Lakers at their lowest moment.


It was painful,” Lakers forward Pau Gasol(notes) said. “It is a feeling that I want to keep in my mind for every single minute that I’m out there playing them.
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby Lakeshow24 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:26 pm

Nikez wrote:Im already on the record as saying if somebody was banging my sister, that would come above all else and I too would be saying HELL NO to working with that someone.

Putting that aside, most lakers fans DID want phil to return mostly in part due to the media telling us a deal was "all but done". Most lakers fans after the hiring said that even though phil wasn't the choice, they could have gave other guys a call, interview or a chance at the job. Now fans are madder than ever at hiring given the huge disappointment this season has been.

Hindsight is 20/20. There were some pretty convincing reasons that should hire mike as our head coach. Obviously because of Steve Nash but also like Woj pointed out kobe has a history with Dantony as well so that's our 2 main leaders endorsing this coach. And there were definitely many more lakers fans back then who agreed with this paragraph.

However, what many fans believe (what I agree with as well) is Jerrys vision of a more uptempo entertaining brand of basketball can't just magically happen by hiring a coach known for that style of play. You want to build a championship team like that? Fine. Take the time for one to get the right assistants, why Mike Browns guys are still here baffles me. Then go out and get some more athletes and shooters to make the personnel work for the coach. This is really why I can't blame our current situation all on Dantony (his biggest shortfall is that he definitely needs to find a way or find someone who knows how to implement a REAL DEFENSE). The blame is on the buss's (jerry and jim alike) for not properly executing their new vision.


Well, they're engaged to get married now so sometimes you have to get over your overprotective ego. She's over 50 years old.
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby D.B. Cooper on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:26 pm

khmrP wrote:
D.B. Cooper wrote:I know there was a report that in order to keep D12 in Orl they wanted to get Phil, but he made the same request. Not travel on extended RT and after a year or two he would let Shaw coach and Phil would become GM/ President of the Magic.

As far as the Lakers, I was shocked with the Tony hire but I gave it a chance ONLY because I figured Nash would run things smoothly. One way to fix this is bite the bullet and make Eddie Jordan the HC and go back to the motion offense. I think you still trade Gasol because his D vs smaller quicker PF is awful. Try to get a bench with the Gasol trade(easier said than done, I know) and hopefully keep the 2014 plan. Of course if you do get a bench dump Morris, Ebanks, Sacre and Duhon or Blake.


dude, everybody keep repeating OFFENSE isn't the biggest problem, going back to that horrible O would only make things worse, these perimiter guys dont know how to move for crap with out the ball.


And what Phil was a defensive coach? All we need is a guy that's been a HC before and has a system, and of course practice D, have a system on D too. These guys are lost on D because they're not on the same page. You gotta coach on both sides and not just scream run, run and defense, defense like Tony does.
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby Nikez on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:33 pm

Lakeshow24 wrote:
Nikez wrote:Im already on the record as saying if somebody was banging my sister, that would come above all else and I too would be saying HELL NO to working with that someone.


Well, they're engaged to get married now so sometimes you have to get over your overprotective ego. She's over 50 years old.

I know it doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things, but that's just the way I am. That comment was just me trying to put that into context since I can't say I blame him for his animosity towards phil.

I also suggested since they are getting married it's time to bury the hatchet and bring back the zen master :man1:
Before long, someone recognized Phil Jackson sitting in the front seat, and then the rocks began to fly. Revelers pelted the bus and shook it, mocking the Lakers at their lowest moment.


It was painful,” Lakers forward Pau Gasol(notes) said. “It is a feeling that I want to keep in my mind for every single minute that I’m out there playing them.
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby GNC on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:50 pm

Lakerjones wrote:
GNC wrote:
432J wrote:at the time my thoughts were this:

phil is demanding ALOT but with his credentials and the thought of having him coached this stacked team, i didn't see anything wrong with it. let him stick it to jim buss all he wants, it'll make the team win and buss deserves it all and more anyways. i was 101% sure phil was going to get hired, surely they wouldnt pass over the GOAT regardless of what he's demanding

i wake up the next morning and see dan tony has been hired, this team has been complete sh*t since that day


We have been complete crap way before then too(aside from those few games with Bernie).


True, but isn't that damning of the hiring process? Brown was the wrong coach. D' Antoni was also the wrong coach. They were both terrible hires. And they were both hired poorly - i.e. the actual hiring process was a laugher in both cases.


I agree with what you and 432J are saying. It is comical how outside of Phil we have struck out time and again when it comes to coaches. But to make it worse we make the same stupid mistakes, which is even more concerning.

I had faith that D'Antoni could help turn it around.. but for every step we take forward we take 10 steps backwards. By no means is this all on D'Antoni though-- the blame goes all around.
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby khmrP on Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:05 pm

D.B. Cooper wrote:
khmrP wrote:
D.B. Cooper wrote:I know there was a report that in order to keep D12 in Orl they wanted to get Phil, but he made the same request. Not travel on extended RT and after a year or two he would let Shaw coach and Phil would become GM/ President of the Magic.

As far as the Lakers, I was shocked with the Tony hire but I gave it a chance ONLY because I figured Nash would run things smoothly. One way to fix this is bite the bullet and make Eddie Jordan the HC and go back to the motion offense. I think you still trade Gasol because his D vs smaller quicker PF is awful. Try to get a bench with the Gasol trade(easier said than done, I know) and hopefully keep the 2014 plan. Of course if you do get a bench dump Morris, Ebanks, Sacre and Duhon or Blake.


dude, everybody keep repeating OFFENSE isn't the biggest problem, going back to that horrible O would only make things worse, these perimiter guys dont know how to move for crap with out the ball.


And what Phil was a defensive coach? All we need is a guy that's been a HC before and has a system, and of course practice D, have a system on D too. These guys are lost on D because they're not on the same page. You gotta coach on both sides and not just scream run, run and defense, defense like Tony does.


well going back to that bad offense isn't gona help matters any thats for sure.
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Re: Did Woj get this ONE wrong?

Postby LTLakerFan on Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:19 pm

It really did help to have the smartest guy in the room....and on the court....and with the media.....and in opposing coaches' heads because he was better than most of them, and the guy who had the 11 rings coaching the Lakers. Things no way would have looked like this and Dwight probably would be reasonably happy. THAT'S WHAT PHIL IS THE EFFING MASTER AT DOING. If don't win it all this year, get the missing pieces and great shot again next year. Attract some nice ring chasers for the Zen Fest and Kobe's supposedly last year.

But NOOOOOO
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