D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby JGC on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:09 pm

Finwë wrote:JGC, Howard went 5-10 during hack-a-dwight. Look at trodgers' post about settling for 1.00 point per possession, and also consider the effects on the players' rythm and "sync" of the 5 sequences..


Yeah I saw that. It's fantastic.

We were up 4 before Hack a Dwight. We were up 2 after Hack a Dwight. That's 2 points. If Hack a Dwight is going to cost us a grand total of 1 basket, then I'm kind of thinking we should be able to beat most teams in spite of it.

I will never defend Dwight's garbage FT shooting. I just don't think in this particular game, it was the primary reason for the loss. I do think it was A reason for the loss though.

I'm thinking that in a game against the Rockets, in the 45 game minutes prior to Hack a Howard, that maybe we'll do enough of the right things so that we can afford a 1 minute span where we go -2. If we're not able to do that, then our problems are bigger than Hack a Howard.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby The Rock on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:12 pm

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Rockets coach Kelvin Sampson details his strategy on "Hack a Dwight"

"It has to be circumstantial. That was the right time to do it for a couple reasons. One, it gets the ball out of Kobe's hands. There's not a better 4th quarter player in this league than Kobe. They set the rhythm. It was hard for us to get them out of that rhythm. I thought our defense the last 16 minutes of the game was better. They're such a rhythm team. It [Hack a Dwight] comes under the caegory 'you do what you have to do to win the game."
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby Finwë on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:18 pm

JGC wrote:
My one WMC was Kobe? I don't think I ever said that. I did say "Kobe. Way too many shots" or something along those lines. But I also mentioned that we under utilized Dwight as well.

Yes, it was.
Also, constantly repeating that Howard is under utilized is another of your ways of blaming Kobe, and it's obvious. BTW, you realize by now that said statement is false right? trodgers showed you stats, Howard's consuming more possessions than Bynum did last year. And that's with him being a complete liability since he can't make FTs.

JGC wrote:Kobe was the zero IMO. I'm not the only one that believes that. I just don't think going Iverson helps the team. Do you think it helps the team or hurts the team?

Kobe wasn't the zero. It's not as subjective as some may think, IMO we can say with plenty objectivism that that isn't true.
You not being the only one who believes that means very little, considering the essence of certain posters' apparent purpose here.

JGC wrote:Nothing that Kobe did accomplished anything tonight. If we're sacrificing wins to "gel", then fine, let's play the team concept, work on gelling, and lose some ball games. If we're sacrificing the team concept and "gelling" to get cheap wins, then fine let's abandon the team concept, go hero ball and win some ball games.

We did neither. We missed an opportunity to do some in-game gelling and chalked up another loss. If we're going to lose, then I'd rather we do that trying to form our team identity.

Despite Kobe not being as sharp as he can sometimes be, the team was doing pretty well when he was on the floor throught the first 3 Qs. The team's collapse began in the 4th, with him on the bench, and no, it wasn't his fault from the bench. The rockets gained momentum and hack-a-dwight took the rest of our offensive and defensive flow & rythm (added to the fact that individually our guys really sucked on D for some stretches, Kobe being one of them no doubt).

I do think Kobe took too many shots and forced the issue from time to time, though he was being able to find consistent good looks for himself (except the 3s, those weren't needed), just missed some..
His D was the worst part of his game, but his work on offense wasn't NEARLY as big as a problem as you paint it to be.

JGC wrote:What exactly was the point in him taking 18 shots by halftime exactly? It's another example where Kobe's heart is in the right place (his desire to win), but how he goes about doing it was entirely off base.

I agree he took too many shots in the first half. Seemed like he had some rythm but settled for some bad shots (3s mostly) or forced it from time to time.
No much of an argument there, it was a bit more than just "taking what the D was giving". Maybe he felt he needed to compensate for Pau not being there. I don't know. But again, even then the team was doing fairly well, actually playing pretty good overall, even good D (though they weren't rebounding much). That wasn't what caused the collapse.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby Finwë on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:21 pm

JGC wrote:
Finwë wrote:JGC, Howard went 5-10 during hack-a-dwight. Look at trodgers' post about settling for 1.00 point per possession, and also consider the effects on the players' rythm and "sync" of the 5 sequences..


Yeah I saw that. It's fantastic.

We were up 4 before Hack a Dwight. We were up 2 after Hack a Dwight. That's 2 points. If Hack a Dwight is going to cost us a grand total of 1 basket, then I'm kind of thinking we should be able to beat most teams in spite of it.

I will never defend Dwight's garbage FT shooting. I just don't think in this particular game, it was the primary reason for the loss. I do think it was A reason for the loss though.

I'm thinking that in a game against the Rockets, in the 45 game minutes prior to Hack a Howard, that maybe we'll do enough of the right things so that we can afford a 1 minute span where we go -2. If we're not able to do that, then our problems are bigger than Hack a Howard.

I wasn't saying hack-a-dwight was the reason we lost, this whole thing started with you saying that Kobe's "chucking" was a bigger factor to the loss than hack-a-dwight. It wasn't.
BTW, you still haven't addressed the impact of the hack-a-dwight on the flow of the game (not just during it, but afterwards). You had no trouble believing that Kobe's "chucking" had taken players "out of sync", I just want to read what you think hack-a-dwight does.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby JGC on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:32 pm

Finwë wrote:
JGC wrote:
Finwë wrote:JGC, Howard went 5-10 during hack-a-dwight. Look at trodgers' post about settling for 1.00 point per possession, and also consider the effects on the players' rythm and "sync" of the 5 sequences..


Yeah I saw that. It's fantastic.

We were up 4 before Hack a Dwight. We were up 2 after Hack a Dwight. That's 2 points. If Hack a Dwight is going to cost us a grand total of 1 basket, then I'm kind of thinking we should be able to beat most teams in spite of it.

I will never defend Dwight's garbage FT shooting. I just don't think in this particular game, it was the primary reason for the loss. I do think it was A reason for the loss though.

I'm thinking that in a game against the Rockets, in the 45 game minutes prior to Hack a Howard, that maybe we'll do enough of the right things so that we can afford a 1 minute span where we go -2. If we're not able to do that, then our problems are bigger than Hack a Howard.

I wasn't saying hack-a-dwight was the reason we lost, this whole thing started with you saying that Kobe's "chucking" was a bigger factor to the loss than hack-a-dwight. It wasn't.
BTW, you still haven't addressed the impact of the hack-a-dwight on the flow of the game (not just during it, but afterwards). You had no trouble believing that Kobe's "chucking" had taken players "out of sync", I just want to read what you think hack-a-dwight does.


Sorry, you're wrong. Kobe's chucking was the primary contributor to the loss. Listen, I know that in your mind Kobe has NEVER been the contributor to ANY loss. And we can't definitively PROVE that he was or wasn't. It all comes down to which you think is a greater detriment to the team. Howard's FT woes. Or Kobe's propensity to chuck at times. I think it's the latter.

I said it somewhere, I think both hero ball and hack a dwight kill any rhythm whatsoever. Not denying that. But had we stuck with more of a team concept in the game today, hack a dwight would not have even been a factor. When Kobe plays facilitator and plays within that team execution, we win almost every time. When he doesn't, and when he instead turns the ball over more than he assists on baskets, we seem to lose and that's especially more true in his older years because he doesn't play any real defense and he also doesn't get as many easy buckets as they are almost entirely jumpers.

The momentum had been lost long before Hack a Dwight even started. And the reason for the lost momentum was because hero ball gets the team out of sync and that's when people start turning the ball over and missing shots which is exactly what happened PRIOR to Hack a Howard.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby Center Court on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:39 pm

9 shots for Dwight... 33 for Kobe.

You tell me what's the problem.

Been defending Kobe way too long, but I'm about done. He's killing this team with his chukcing and lazy defense
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby WilliamHaven on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:41 pm

They wouldn't have to "Hack a Dwight" if our team played any defense. Houston score over 100 while shooting piss poor. The end.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby The Rock on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:42 pm

HE GETS FREE THROWS! WTF...thats his opportunity to get easy points. Its easy. No post moves, no scanning the defense. Why does he need to be given the ball more when you know hes gonna get fouled regardless???? And he had his scoring opportunities at the line. People are ridiculous with the box score reading.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby The Rock on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:44 pm

WilliamHaven wrote:They wouldn't have to "Hack a Dwight" if our team played any defense. Houston score over 100 while shooting piss poor. The end.


we held it together for 3 Quarters believe it or not. The offensive rebounds was an issue but we were outrebounding them regardless. Just like the Orlando game, it fell apart the last 5 minutes. Couldn't get a stop and hack a Dwight provided us minimal opportunities to score
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby WilliamHaven on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:48 pm

The Rock wrote:
WilliamHaven wrote:They wouldn't have to "Hack a Dwight" if our team played any defense. Houston score over 100 while shooting piss poor. The end.


we held it together for 3 Quarters believe it or not. The offensive rebounds was an issue but we were outrebounding them regardless. Just like the Orlando game, it fell apart the last 5 minutes. Couldn't get a stop and hack a Dwight provided us minimal opportunities to score



That is not a recipe for long term success. We can't let crappy teams do anything they want on offense. We have to play defense. Dwight is not suddenly going to be great at free throw shooting. Would it have won this game? Yes, but only masks the real problem....crappy defense. Teams are getting anything they want.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby JGC on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:48 pm

The Rock wrote:
WilliamHaven wrote:They wouldn't have to "Hack a Dwight" if our team played any defense. Houston score over 100 while shooting piss poor. The end.


we held it together for 3 Quarters believe it or not. The offensive rebounds was an issue but we were outrebounding them regardless. Just like the Orlando game, it fell apart the last 5 minutes. Couldn't get a stop and hack a Dwight provided us minimal opportunities to score


Yeah but games are played for 4 quarters and it should have been obvious by halftime that the game was going to be close at the end. In Kobe's later years, we always struggle when he comes out with hero ball from the get go. It's just not a recipe for much success.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby The Rock on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:50 pm

WilliamHaven wrote:
The Rock wrote:
WilliamHaven wrote:They wouldn't have to "Hack a Dwight" if our team played any defense. Houston score over 100 while shooting piss poor. The end.


we held it together for 3 Quarters believe it or not. The offensive rebounds was an issue but we were outrebounding them regardless. Just like the Orlando game, it fell apart the last 5 minutes. Couldn't get a stop and hack a Dwight provided us minimal opportunities to score



That is not a recipe for long term success. We can't let crappy teams do anything they want on offense. We have to play defense. Dwight is not suddenly going to be great at free throw shooting. Would it have won this game? Yes, but only masks the real problem....crappy defense. Teams are getting anything they want.


Not true. Lin sucked today. Harden sucked today. Parsons sucked today. We locked up their 3 leading scorers, Harden just ran into our players and drew some fouls as usual but our PG defensive problems reared its ugly head again. Toney Douglas (ahem the 1st round pick we solid for $ to NYK) came off the bench and lit us up and so did Greg Smith
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby JGC on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:53 pm

^ Our SG defensive problems reared its ugly head too. Don't forget! I mean, it was borderline pathetic. The PGs try and fail. Kobe sometimes, he has nights where it just seems like he doesn't try (although that could have been because he was saving it for offense).
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby WilliamHaven on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:56 pm

The Rock wrote:
WilliamHaven wrote:
The Rock wrote:
WilliamHaven wrote:They wouldn't have to "Hack a Dwight" if our team played any defense. Houston score over 100 while shooting piss poor. The end.


we held it together for 3 Quarters believe it or not. The offensive rebounds was an issue but we were outrebounding them regardless. Just like the Orlando game, it fell apart the last 5 minutes. Couldn't get a stop and hack a Dwight provided us minimal opportunities to score



That is not a recipe for long term success. We can't let crappy teams do anything they want on offense. We have to play defense. Dwight is not suddenly going to be great at free throw shooting. Would it have won this game? Yes, but only masks the real problem....crappy defense. Teams are getting anything they want.


Not true. Lin sucked today. Harden sucked today. Parsons sucked today. We locked up their 3 leading scorers, Harden just ran into our players and drew some fouls as usual but our PG defensive problems reared its ugly head again. Toney Douglas (ahem the 1st round pick we solid for $ to NYK) came off the bench and lit us up and so did Greg Smith


Ok, and guess what? They shot crappy and still won. They got offensive rebounds like crazy because we played zero defense and failed to get defensive rebounds. And therefore got whatever second chances they needed. Get half of those rebounds back and we blow them out, regardless of dwight's free throws
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby Finwë on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:56 pm

JGC wrote:Sorry, you're wrong. Kobe's chucking was the primary contributor to the loss. Listen, I know that in your mind Kobe has NEVER been the contributor to ANY loss. And we can't definitively PROVE that he was or wasn't. It all comes down to which you think is a greater detriment to the team. Howard's FT woes. Or Kobe's propensity to chuck at times. I think it's the latter.

I said it somewhere, I think both hero ball and hack a dwight kill any rhythm whatsoever. Not denying that. But had we stuck with more of a team concept in the game today, hack a dwight would not have even been a factor. When Kobe plays facilitator and plays within that team execution, we win almost every time. When he doesn't, and when he instead turns the ball over more than he assists on baskets, we seem to lose and that's especially more true in his older years because he doesn't play any real defense and he also doesn't get as many easy buckets as they are almost entirely jumpers.

The momentum had been lost long before Hack a Dwight even started. And the reason for the lost momentum was because hero ball gets the team out of sync and that's when people start turning the ball over and missing shots which is exactly what happened PRIOR to Hack a Howard.

No, you're wrong, lol.
Tonight the impact of hack-a-dwight was worse than the impact of "kobe hero ball". Easy to see in a simple summary of the game with scores.
IMO neither were as big a factors as offensive rebounds / turnovers, but still, this is a fun discussion (not really)

BTW, please don't do that, don't try to make me look like the one with an agenda, because it's so hypocritical it's not even funny. I think people have noticed yours a bunch of times now.

That's it for me tonight. I'll check back tomorrow, we can argue some more then.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby The Rock on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:58 pm

^ we controlled the glass in ORL game, limited turnovers and same thing happened. We're having trouble finishing games off that we control for the majority of the game. Its not like we're getting worked from beginning to the end like when Mike Brown was here.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby JGC on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:05 am

The poor defense and execution down the stretch is directly correlated to Kobe hero ball though. That's my point. They aren't mutually exclusive. We never play great defense or execute fantastic down the stretch when Kobe is in hero mode. Now, there is a fair debate as to which creates which. Does the lack of defense cause Kobe to go in to hero mode? Or does hero mode cause the players to lose focus and energy and thus more prone to lapses on both ends of the floor?

In this particular case, Kobe started shooting away from the get go, so one would be hard pressed to argue that he HAD to do it because the defense was failing.

The point is, Kobe hero ball doesn't really create anything positive for the team. It doesn't result in wins, and it doesn't result in the team playing better basketball offensively or defensively. So it is rather pointless. Note also that no one seems to complain when Kobe plays facilitator because the defense is better when he does and as a result, we tend to win games.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby last stand on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:08 am

well tonight dwight was not thrilled with kobe ball. Kobe has another star on this team. a star that wants the ball. this isn't 2008-2010 where pau and lamar could careless how many shots kobe took because in reality it was more pressure off of them

dwight wants the ball, he should have gotten it, especially the first 3 quarters. unacceptable by kobe. dwight looked pissed for the whole first half
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby Battle Tested20 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:09 am

I really surprised that a majority if not all the members on here want D'Antoni to take Dwight out of the game. I know I'm going to get cut or stabbed for saying this but I couldn't agree with MD anymore. You just can't take Dwight out in that 4th quarter when they are doing the Hack-a-Howard. From an emotional and psychologyical stand point it would cripple him.

Kobe said it best in the post game press conference after the Orlando game, instead of looking at this as a problem Dwight and Company should look at this as a huge opportunity to overcome this problem. Will we lose some games because of this and does this Hack-a-Howard suck?? No doubt, but Howard and this team will be better for it come later on in the year.

I'm just really confused why some of our fans on this board think taking Howard out will just fix everything when your it's just trying to cover up the problem and not attack it head on.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby Center Court on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:17 am

Battle Tested20 wrote:I really surprised that a majority if not all the members on here want D'Antoni to take Dwight out of the game. I know I'm going to get cut or stabbed for saying this but I couldn't agree with MD anymore. You just can't take Dwight out in that 4th quarter when they are doing the Hack-a-Howard. From an emotional and psychologyical stand point it would cripple him.

Kobe said it best in the post game press conference after the Orlando game, instead of looking at this as a problem Dwight and Company should look at this as a huge opportunity to overcome this problem. Will we lose some games because of this and does this Hack-a-Howard suck?? No doubt, but Howard and this team will be better for it come later on in the year.

I'm just really confused why some of our fans on this board think taking Howard out will just fix everything when your it's just trying to cover up the problem and not attack it head on.


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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby odom1year on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:21 am

last stand wrote:well tonight dwight was not thrilled with kobe ball. Kobe has another star on this team. a star that wants the ball. this isn't 2008-2010 where pau and lamar could careless how many shots kobe took because in reality it was more pressure off of them

dwight wants the ball, he should have gotten it, especially the first 3 quarters. unacceptable by kobe. dwight looked pissed for the whole first half


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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby Battle Tested20 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:24 am

19 offensive rebound for 29 Second Chance Points is what killed us tonight. Not to mention the 19 turnovers, which partially can be attributed to Kobe Ball.

Not the 8/16 FTM that Dwight shot. We couldn't grab a rebound when we needed to in those closing minutes.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby WilliamHaven on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:38 am

The Rock wrote:^ we controlled the glass in ORL game, limited turnovers and same thing happened. We're having trouble finishing games off that we control for the majority of the game. Its not like we're getting worked from beginning to the end like when Mike Brown was here.



We did not control the Orlando game. They scored 113 points when they average 93. They shot 50% when they average 44%.

REALLY BAD DEFENSE. that is the common denominator.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby WilliamHaven on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:40 am

Battle Tested20 wrote:19 offensive rebound for 29 Second Chance Points is what killed us tonight. Not to mention the 19 turnovers, which partially can be attributed to Kobe Ball.

Not the 8/16 FTM that Dwight shot. We couldn't grab a rebound when we needed to in those closing minutes.



yep. our old friend phil jackson would be appalled that anyone would blame dwight's free throws, when considering the above stats.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion (Hack-a-Dwight)

Postby The Rock on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:44 am

WilliamHaven wrote:
The Rock wrote:^ we controlled the glass in ORL game, limited turnovers and same thing happened. We're having trouble finishing games off that we control for the majority of the game. Its not like we're getting worked from beginning to the end like when Mike Brown was here.



We did not control the Orlando game. They scored 113 points when they average 93. They shot 50% when they average 44%.

REALLY BAD DEFENSE. that is the common denominator.



we gave up 40 points in the 4th Q. If you take that out its 73 in 3Q which is not bad considering the pace of the game. They scored 35 points in the last 7 minutes of the game which means the 1st 5 mins of the 4th we gave up 5 points. We were up 7 with 7 minutes left in the game. We had a lead, we played adequate defense on them. Just like tonight, on Sunday we just didnt get the job done and finish of a great game we played for more than 3Qs. Its as simple as that. Whether we ran out of gas, Hack a Dwight, killer instinct, whatever it may be, our issues are mainly in the 4th Q finishing games off
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