D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby borri on Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:33 am

I am seriously questioning whether D12 has the necessary mental toughness to lead our Lakers to the promised land as a franchise player.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby wcsoldier81 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:11 am

therealdeal wrote:
You guys can try to trade Dwight all you want, the fact is he's the best around right now. Is he an inherent winner? It seems not as much as I'd like him to be. But regardless of that he's still the best Center in the league when he's healthy and he can be a fantastic piece to the puzzle.

Everyone wants to let him go for a better leader/piece. I don't see that piece existing right now. Give me a year or two and there'll be another young guy available whether it be Irving or Wall or someone of that nature, we're going to get a young guard to run with him and that'll change the way we perceive him.



Agreed but two limitations of D12

1) Dwight is the biggest crybaby ever ... is as moody as a NBA star can be ... I don't see this changing

2) the back limitation is not going away ... some nights he can be very active and some nights he just can't physically do it ... this is what disc herniation does to all people ... whether there are pro athletes or regular people
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby wcsoldier81 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:22 am

borri wrote:I am seriously questioning whether D12 has the necessary mental toughness to lead our Lakers to the promised land as a franchise player.


1)he hasn't until proven otherwise ... something he obviously hasn't done this season so far


2) even pre back pbs D12 isn't good enough of an offensive player to win a title as a 1st option ... there is no way your team can come out of the West with him as the go to guy ... I'd say 2nd round exit material
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby GoldenKnight on Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:36 am

Dwight will be better mentally & physically next year. Its all part of the championship player molding process. This season should make him want it next season 10x more...
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby JGC on Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:48 am

Try to sign Dwight. If he bolts, he bolts. We'll start over in 2014 anyway.

I don't feel like signing him is as crucial anymore because either way we're not winning next year. So it's all about 2014 now.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby therealdeal on Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:52 am

Finwë wrote:LOL, I was just throwing names around, relax

And realdeal, I agree, I'm just asking that if the FO thought Howard was gonna walk and decided to trade him, what package would be acceptable? Then I just threw some names around, that's all.
If Howard wasn't planning to leave, then I wouldn't deal him unless I got a really great deal in place that fit the pieces we already have better.
It's true that the Batum-Aldridge deal would probably hurt our D though. Plus everyone would be a season older...

Different quesiton, even with Howard in the lineup, could a team that is starting Nash & Pau (one season older) be a good defensive team? And it's not like Kobe or MWP are playing elite perimeter D.
It just feels like we have too many weak links in our team for us to play consistent, tough, championship level D. Physically we can't really compete with teams like Miami or OKC or the Clippers, and system-wise we don't have a brilliant coach like Thibbs or Pop to coordinate our D and hide our individual weaknesses..
I think if Dwight wanted to walk you pull the Kevin Love deal and ask for Kevin Love and Pekovic. I'd give them whatever they wanted to make that work. If it takes Pau and Dwight then I ask for Love/Pekovic/Kirilenko/as many f***ing picks as I want. :man10:

Basically there's not a package out there that I'd be really all that interested in. I'm restarting the franchise in 2 years with or without Dwight. I want Dwight, but if he wants to leave then I'll hold the door open for him on the way out. If I can get a young star for Dwight in a sign and trade or something like that, I'll do that sure.

As for your second question, no a team with Pau and Artest in the starting lineup cannot win anything. We all vastly underestimated the decline of Gasol and we all really overrated the return of Artest. Yes he's much better than last season, but that doesn't mean he's great. He's a good role player at this point in his career.

Now if we somehow got our hands on a young athletic SF I think a starting lineup of Nash/Kobe/SF/Clark/healthy Howard could easily win a Championship.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby therealdeal on Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:55 am

wcsoldier81 wrote:Agreed but two limitations of D12

1) Dwight is the biggest crybaby ever ... is as moody as a NBA star can be ... I don't see this changing

2) the back limitation is not going away ... some nights he can be very active and some nights he just can't physically do it ... this is what disc herniation does to all people ... whether there are pro athletes or regular people

1st point: Ever? No, not ever but certainly the biggest since Shaq. He has been coddled his entire life, that much is clear. Somewhere along the line his maturity will come into play. Is it now? Maybe, but this has been maybe the most adversity I've seen a Laker team go through. I'll give him half a pass.

2nd point: I agree his limitation will remain with him the rest of his life, but he's not a regular person. He's an athletic monster that has access to the best medicine money can buy. His limitations will not be anywhere near what the normal person will experience. With a year or two of exercise and recovery, he will be just fine. Will he ever be as explosive as he once was? No. But he can be just as strong and that's maybe more important over time.

And considering he's arguably the best all-around Center in the game even at half strength says a lot about the state of the game and about his importance in the league.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby Lakerman JSJ on Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:29 am

Did a quick scan of LD & this thread and didn't see this great article by Kevin Ding on Nash losing patience with Dwight anywhere, so here it is:

Nash's anger at Howard was very real
Kevin Ding column: The words Steve Nash yelled at Dwight Howard in the Lakers' loss in Miami were rooted in ongoing frustration -- hardly some random moment.


MIAMI – What's wrong with you if the Greatest Teammate Ever is fed up with you?

Well, what's wrong with Dwight Howard is he still isn't trying.

And for Steve Nash – who has spent close to two decades in the NBA making anyone who tried hard next to him look better than ever and who said during his own MVP heights that if everybody worked as hard as him, he wouldn't even be in the league – not trying is infuriating.

They were always the most curious pairing of all the complex ones on these Lakers: The ultimate underdog and the No. 1 overall everything. The one who after practice Saturday was doing extreme pushups in conjunction with sprints, the other who was sitting in a courtside seat playing with his phone.

Neither of the Lakers' celebrated acquisitions has been healthy this season, which is part of the problem. It's about the only thing Nash and Howard have had in common.

For months, Nash has been talking about the Lakers needing to have "shared experiences" to grow together. That's tough if the teammates are seeing the experiences from totally different perspectives.

That's what prompted Nash and Howard to yell at each other in the third quarter of the Lakers' loss Sunday in Miami.

Nash drove and was trapped on the baseline by two Miami defenders, Udonis Haslem about to force Nash out of bounds and Mario Chalmers also there between Nash and Howard, who stood deep in the paint. The other three Lakers had the floor spaced the way Mike D'Antoni wants, all behind the 3-point arc, so no other Heat player could get to Howard.

Howard had time to stand there, stare at Nash and the two Heat players, hold his arms up and wave them.

So Howard's eyes and arms were working. Tragically, his legs and feet were not.

Are we going to chalk this up to after effects from his April back surgery, too?

Howard just stood there instead of trying to help Nash create a passing lane – and get himself an easy dunk, as Nash gestured afterward would've happened if Howard just did something besides stand there.

In Howard's eyes, he was open, so give him the ball. That has been Howard's point of view much of the season: He simply wants the ball, wants his touches, wants his shots – and yet refuses to buy into the D'Antoni doctrine that "the ball finds energy."

If Howard really lusts for individual offense so badly, why not try harder to get the ball? Even if he can't explode like he did when he fully trusted his body, at least try to do something. Just look at how well things went even with makeshift non-Nash point guards for Jordan Hill – with a herniated disk in his back and other injuries before requiring hip surgery – when he simply rolled hard off picks.

When teams trap or zone Nash, as they usually do, and stay at home on Kobe Bryant on the backside, it's pretty obvious that Howard is the guy with no one on him for the moment after the pick.

Catch, step, step. Score.

Not always, but certainly often – if you try.

Watch footage of those old Phoenix sets and it's more like pick and run for how hard the Suns would cut. Nash's magic has always risen out of everyone moving, teammates inspired by trust in him getting them the ball right on time if they brought real energy.

When Howard did not in that moment Sunday, after so many games now feeling trapped by so many instances of Howard's immobility, Nash snapped – far more so than when the two squabbled in Denver on Dec. 26, Howard's most lifeless game of the season besides Thursday in Boston.

Why won't Howard try?

He's simply afraid to hurt himself?

He wants to save his body for free agency and beyond?

He really hates pick-and-roll offense so much now – maybe because Shaquille O'Neal is so deep in his head that he's determined to prove O'Neal's preseason statement incorrect about the only way Howard is the best center in the league? ("If you want to go to flash and dunking and the pick and roll, you gotta go with Dwight Howard.")

Does it even matter?

When you know that this whole team's fate rides on Howard's level of effort, are 39 years old and just faced your own basketball mortality with a seven-week broken leg (and yes, Nash came back and is playing through his own nerve damage in his left leg, as Howard regularly cites about his left leg), it's enough to start steaming inside.

Even if you're known as the Greatest Teammate Ever.

Nash is not convinced Howard is incapable of playing pick and roll.

"We'd like to get him in the pick and roll more," Nash said Sunday. "I think that's how he was really good in Orlando. He'd pick and he'd dive and they'd swing and put it in to him, so he could get deeper catches and the help side has a more difficult time coming to him.

"I don't know. It's been difficult really to get him into that game – running into pick and rolls, diving hard, looking for the ball. We really haven't found that rhythm from him yet."

From him.

Howard would probably say for him.

He sat down after the game Sunday to do an interview with a highly attractive female reporter from Puerto Rico wearing clingy clothes and huge heels. Her first observation/question?

I watched the game today and you don't seem to be given the ball very much ...

Indeed, despite all the Defensive Player of the Year awards, the superficial stardom that Howard craves comes only from one end of the court.

It becomes a crucial issue when the Lakers aren't convinced Howard will consistently play hard on defense unless he has a role he accepts on offense.

Nash is not blameless for the Lakers' struggles; Bryant and D'Antoni, either. Rest assured, though, that even as the Lakers' brass tries to placate Howard so he'll re-sign, those three are on the same page about what hasn't clicked on Howard's end.

They've tried to feed him in the post early in games despite the analytics showing little production, and he has been trying a little harder in recent weeks – aside from sitting out because of fears over shoulder pain.

He tried on defense in the fourth quarter in Charlotte despite not getting any shots during the Lakers' improbable, important rally. And as long as Howard tries some – and his right shoulder appears to be sound enough for that considering he was hoisting 3-pointer after 3-pointer as his final warmup before tip-off Sunday – the Lakers will keep getting better.

They actually are in position to win their next two before the All-Star break (Suns, Clippers) and then two after (Celtics, Trail Blazers), all home games, and reach .500. As long as Howard tries some, yes, the Lakers will make the playoffs – as there's plenty of time to catch mediocre Utah or inexperienced Houston. And what if he really tries hard?

Even with his quarrel with Howard on Sunday, Nash said the Lakers are "sputtering in the right direction."
He isn't fed up to the point of giving up.

"We're not in here ready to quit on each other," Nash said. "We're still going for it. But it's just been really slow going."

That's how it goes when someone in a group believes failure is being done to him instead of by him.


http://www.ocregister.com/articles/howard-495416-nash-lakers.html
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby Lakerman JSJ on Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:39 am

Every Laker fan needs to read that article. Seriously, if Steve Nash, on par with the greatest teammate anyone has ever had, starts calling you out then you've got some serious self-examining to do. C'mon, Dwight!
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby therealdeal on Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:50 am

Lakerman JSJ wrote:Every Laker fan needs to read that article. Seriously, if Steve Nash, on par with the greatest teammate anyone has ever had, starts calling you out then you've got some serious self-examining to do. C'mon, Dwight!

What's most disappointing is that we ended up trading our last Center for the exact same maturity issues. :man10:
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby Weezy on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:00 am

If Steve Nash has to call out your effort, wow. He's not trying, it's obvious, even JVG could see it a point out he wasn't even setting screens just faking it, and it's unacceptable.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby John3:16 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:02 am

Nice read JSJ. Thanks for posting.

D'Antoni vs Howard. Kobe vs Howard. Nash vs Howard. Even Clark vs Howard. Common denominator....
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby khmrP on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:03 am

trade him, be done with it!
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby V.V.V.V.V. on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:09 am

It must be the altitude up there. Messes with your head.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby jjin28 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:11 am

i read the article but couldn't find one direct quote from Nash calling Dwight out. I saw a lot of observations from the writer who then inferred his own thoughts, but not anything straight from Nash's mouth.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby The Rock on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:11 am

:bang: :bang: :bang:

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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:13 am

It's almost like Howard is just going through the motions because he knows he's leaving this off-season. It's kind of depressing because if he leaves he'll be a lot more healthy next season and kill it for whoever he's playing for meanwhile we got a broken down version of Dwight for a year.

When you can't make it work playing for the Lakers and two of the best passers in the history of the league then maybe the problem is just you. I really can't stand him anymore
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby TIME on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:16 am

Ship his a** out!
I'm lost in the fog of denial!
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby Doc Brown on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:17 am

Hey leave T.O. alone, it's obviously not his fault he can't along with anyone, when the going gets tough.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby LTLakerFan on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:29 am

Holy crap, Ding and Nash right on the money with what so many of us try to put into words when watching his mother freaking lack of movement. Besides ineffective post up technique tries and then sulk when he doesn't get it in the crappy space he wound up. I was thinking the exact thing watching that play that Nash is pissed about. Dwight just stood back, no steps at all toward the still large opening for a bounce pass Nash could have thrown.

And just CAMPING on the opposite side of the key when Kobe's backing down and yes, "1year" .....in the looking for people to pass to mode. 3 squick steps on a cut with his size and hops close to Kobe, how effing easy is that to protect his right shouler and get dunks or lay it in. Watch Easy Earl do it. Easily.

And the worst picks you've ever seen from a supposed best BIG in the league. They're horrible. He can't be afraid of the contact from those for crissakes. :bang: :bang: :bang: To all of this crap.

Thank you Nash and thank you Ding!!

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:30 am

Damn, I didn't get to see the game but if Nash is calling you out like this then it really is "reality" gut-check time.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:33 am

therealdeal wrote:
Lakerman JSJ wrote:Every Laker fan needs to read that article. Seriously, if Steve Nash, on par with the greatest teammate anyone has ever had, starts calling you out then you've got some serious self-examining to do. C'mon, Dwight!

What's most disappointing is that we ended up trading our last Center for the exact same maturity issues. :man10:

At least that center gave us 100% or close to it in 6/7 seasons and helped us win 2 rings. Through injuries too.Dwight has been here for 50 some games and is clearly checked out. It's pointless to compare them, IMO.

Dwight is what we have, and we need to seriously consider whether he is "our guy" or not.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby Lakerman JSJ on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:34 am

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:It's almost like Howard is just going through the motions because he knows he's leaving this off-season. It's kind of depressing because if he leaves he'll be a lot more healthy next season and kill it for whoever he's playing for meanwhile we got a broken down version of Dwight for a year.

When you can't make it work playing for the Lakers and two of the best passers in the history of the league then maybe the problem is just you. I really can't stand him anymore


Or he's not pressing his injuries before he gets the security of a long-term contract with us (since we can offer him more money/years than anyone else). Not saying you're wrong, but there's a lot of logic in either line of thinking. No one really knows the truth except Dwight himself.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby LTLakerFan on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:38 am

You just know too he will want an opt out in like 3 years.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby The Rock on Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:43 am

For someone whos claiming to be wanting a championship why isnt he making some sacrifices for it? Hes so stubborn in the way he goes about things. Hes unwilling to trust Nash and Kobe. He doesnt know how to adapt to his failing body & hisnt willing to make the necessary adjustments. On some days you see the DPOY (like in Charlotte in 4th Q) & in other days he isnt battling hard like last night. I truly think hes been told to keep his effort level down & not screw up his body & put the max contract in danger. He looks like a kid who doesnt know what to do.
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