Dwight Discussion: Griffin for Dwight?... Naaaa (1011)

tttttada wrote:And yet, Howard is all about wanting this and that. Him talking about being humble is quite laughable. He's the new guy, he should be making the biggest sacrifice.

He can't really sacrifice anything. He brings defense and rebounding (with some scoring obviously, but he's not going to score 25 ppg) and so far, that's what he's doing. You're certainly not expecting him to be the playmaker or to shoot the corner 3?

What he should improve is the way he sets screens, because quite frankly, he's not that good at it. And with that body... he needs to learn how to do it properly. But again, that doesn't sacrifice anything, just adds to his game. He should not rebound less or score less or block only 1 shot per game (or, god forbid, come off the bench). If anything, he needs to fully recover and play defense like his life depends on it.

If you mean that he should whine less, yes. We can agree on that. But sacrificing something? No.

GoldHammish wrote:

therealdeal wrote:No we can't. Sign and trades aren't allowed under the new CBA for teams over the cap (or maybe the tax threshold, but for us it doesn't matter).

Actually, I believe I read a week or so ago Larry Coon tweet that teams over the cap can send players out via S&T, but they (we) cannot receive a sign-and-traded player.

That was my understanding too ...

karacha wrote:
He can't really sacrifice anything. He brings defense and rebounding (with some scoring obviously, but he's not going to score 25 ppg) and so far, that's what he's doing. You're certainly not expecting him to be the playmaker or to shoot the corner 3?

What he should improve is the way he sets screens, because quite frankly, he's not that good at it. And with that body... he needs to learn how to do it properly. But again, that doesn't sacrifice anything, just adds to his game. He should not rebound less or score less or block only 1 shot per game (or, god forbid, come off the bench). If anything, he needs to fully recover and play defense like his life depends on it.

If you mean that he should whine less, yes. We can agree on that. But sacrificing something? No.

he is actually a very good screen setter, but he's not doing it here. doubt its intentional, maybe he's being told to slip early. who knows. but in orlando he set very good screens. now he's not. it could very well be intentional, but i personally doubt it

Fair enough, but it's something he'll have to work on. I just don't want him to "sacrifice" and do less of anything. Because we need everything he does -- and more.

dwighthowardsdad wrote:

Dwight declined to get into any specifics of the team meeting but said: "It really helped. It helped everybody on the team. It was great. People said it was like a 'Come to Jesus' meeting. ... None of the stuff was taken personally. We all want to hang another banner up here, and we all want to have rings."

http://sulia.com/channel/la-lakers/f/2c ... ce=twitter

Nobody else find it interesting that Dwight used the "come to Jesus (meeting)" expressions here? Yes this is an old expression, but I've rarely heard it used before Phil said it just a few weeks ago and now here Dwight is using it. Phil, getting in the head of this team and helping while not even being the coach.

karacha wrote:

tttttada wrote:And yet, Howard is all about wanting this and that. Him talking about being humble is quite laughable. He's the new guy, he should be making the biggest sacrifice.

He can't really sacrifice anything. He brings defense and rebounding (with some scoring obviously, but he's not going to score 25 ppg) and so far, that's what he's doing. You're certainly not expecting him to be the playmaker or to shoot the corner 3?

What he should improve is the way he sets screens, because quite frankly, he's not that good at it. And with that body... he needs to learn how to do it properly. But again, that doesn't sacrifice anything, just adds to his game. He should not rebound less or score less or block only 1 shot per game (or, god forbid, come off the bench). If anything, he needs to fully recover and play defense like his life depends on it.

If you mean that he should whine less, yes. We can agree on that. But sacrificing something? No.

I don't get with some of these guys, especially Dwight with his mass, why they have a hard time setting a proper screen. It's not that difficult. Get your butt up there in the correct space so the defender has to try to fight through or go under or foul you. Don't stop 5 feet short where the defender doesn't have to do any of that. Soon as you've done that and given the defender the proper problem, roll to the freaking basket. Not rocket science.

karacha wrote:

tttttada wrote:And yet, Howard is all about wanting this and that. Him talking about being humble is quite laughable. He's the new guy, he should be making the biggest sacrifice.

He can't really sacrifice anything. He brings defense and rebounding (with some scoring obviously, but he's not going to score 25 ppg) and so far, that's what he's doing. You're certainly not expecting him to be the playmaker or to shoot the corner 3?

What he should improve is the way he sets screens, because quite frankly, he's not that good at it. And with that body... he needs to learn how to do it properly. But again, that doesn't sacrifice anything, just adds to his game. He should not rebound less or score less or block only 1 shot per game (or, god forbid, come off the bench). If anything, he needs to fully recover and play defense like his life depends on it.

If you mean that he should whine less, yes. We can agree on that. But sacrificing something? No.

I'm not talking about defense, because everyone has to give in on that end. Besides, it's quite obvious at this point that our defense sucks unless the offense is flowing.

And FYI sacrifice means "the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim."

What does he desire the most? More touches. How does he expect to get more touches when he doesn't get proper post position or set proper screens? And even if he does get the ball in the post, he either turns it over, shoots a brick, or gets fouled (which turns into two bricks at the free throw line) His eFG% in the post must be the lowest on the team.

80% of the scoring he does is created by Kobe, Pau or Nash. Dwight is seriously limited on the offensive end. He should get that through his thick skull, shut the hell up, and practice his post moves, free throws and setting screens.

Sorry but he has to SACRIFICE the desire to get more touches. Because quite frankly he does not deserve it right now.

That's an illusion really. He gets plenty of touches. This is not very different from what he was given in Orlando -- but the flow of the game is different. He just needs to get used to that. He gets plenty of touches and he'll become comfortable on his new team. That's not always easy. It might look like a "sacrifice" on paper, but he's not really sacrificing anything.

He scores 1.5 point less then his career average, but shoots the same % from the field. Where's the difference? His FT% is lower. Get it back to the old 58% instead of 50% -- and there's your career average. So, he gets enough shots and scores enough. Just like he did on his old team. Everything but that 1.5 pt is the same: he fouls the same, blocks the same, rebounds the same, has the same # of turnovers and assists. The difference might be .1 point here and there. He's actually pretty good in everything but FTs (that's atrocious) when you consider he did not touch the ball for 8 months before the season. If anything.... his numbers are encouraging. The guy has his strengths and flaws, but he's damn consistent in everything he does -- good and bad.

Yes, he does get plenty of touches, but it rarely translates into buckets because he needs the proper spacing to put on his limited post moves. His career average for FG% is the same because he is getting easier buckets (spoon-fed) from the talent around him. If he had the proper spacing on top of that, it probably would be 4-5% higher.

But that idea brings me back to this point.

Why are we setting plays for him and trying so hard to make him happy? He is one of the biggest liabilities on offense because he can't set proper screens, his post-moves are worse than any of the starters, and his free throws are garbage.

I mean Nash wouldn't have to become a SG if Howard would set proper screens. Gasol wouldn't have to play in the high post, shoot threes, get benched if he were playing the low post (where he has 10x the skillset of Howard) Kobe wouldn't have to become a PG if Nash could run the PnR properly.

It pisses me off that he has the nerves to complain about touches when everyone is forced to adjust to new roles in order to accommodate his shortcomings.

Open question:

I understand all the knocks on Howard. What I don't understand is...

How did he become a superstar? (or, regular star) He has a VERY limited and janky post game, no jumper and horrendous free throws. Defensively and in terms of rebounding, I totally get it. But is this really a guy to build a franchise around? Somebody enlighten me

SpencerHarrison wrote:Open question:

I understand all the knocks on Howard. What I don't understand is...

How did he become a superstar? (or, regular star) He has a VERY limited and janky post game, no jumper and horrendous free throws. Defensively and in terms of rebounding, I totally get it. But is this really a guy to build a franchise around? Somebody enlighten me

Is there anyone else available realistically you could build around at this point or the immediate future? Howard is still not fully recovered but he has been giving us some mighty performances. He is leading the NBA in rebounding, that means he effort is there even if physically he's not still there.

This consensus seems to be that he is slowly recovering from the surgery... very, very slowly, and that by next year he will be at 100% and destroying some mother*******

You can build a franchise around him if you go back to his Orlando days. He led them to the finals and several 50+ W seasons. He didn't exactly have great supporting casts every year. Basically, he won't be a go to option on offense... a guy like David Robinson wasn't considered an alpha on that end, and Howard's offense isn't anywhere near his. He can be a #2, though, and he can anchor the D. The Lakers would need to build around a 1-2 punch of a dominant guard and Dwight. We don't know who that future dominant guard is just yet.

And the way Kobe's playing, the future might not come for a while.

Fair enough - I'm open to the idea that he is still physically recovering and I do recognize that he gives a lot of effort on the glass.

SpencerHarrison wrote:Open question:

I understand all the knocks on Howard. What I don't understand is...

How did he become a superstar? (or, regular star) He has a VERY limited and janky post game, no jumper and horrendous free throws. Defensively and in terms of rebounding, I totally get it. But is this really a guy to build a franchise around? Somebody enlighten me

He is pretty much a taller and more athletic Rodman/B.Wallace. A juggernaut on D, but only good as a third or fourth option on a championship team. (whereas Rodman/Wallace was a fifth option)

He's a superstar because of the combination of a few things.
1) Spectacular defense
2) No other dominant big in his era
3) Athletic dunks
4) Personality

He is an once-in-a-decade-type defense talent, but I would much rather build a franchise around other superstars who are great at both ends of the floor (ie Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Durant, Duncan, KG)

On a scale of 100, he is 100 on defense and 50 on offense, whereas the other superstars are 80-100 on both ends.

SpencerHarrison wrote:Open question:

I understand all the knocks on Howard. What I don't understand is...

How did he become a superstar? (or, regular star) He has a VERY limited and janky post game, no jumper and horrendous free throws. Defensively and in terms of rebounding, I totally get it. But is this really a guy to build a franchise around? Somebody enlighten me

Those Orlando teams have been built around him.. He doesn't look as good thrown in a random mix of stars where his role isn't as big. We have to focus on our strengths & Dwight's are on the boards & D.

The great Celtic teams were built around Bill Russell, who was 75% D and 25% O. But they had a great backcourt that could score. Lakers can be a similar team this year.

I could buy the Ben Wallace comparison, but not Dennis Rodman...

Howard is averaging 16,5PPG /12.0RPG. with 2.5BPG... I don't know about you guys but I thought his PPG would be around 20-22 and his rebounds would be 14-15ish.

if he can rise his play up he can get to those numbers by the end of the year.

^

He never averaged 22/15, and it is certainly difficult on a new team while recovering from a back surgery.

Well you have a point, but I still think those number per average should be higher for him, and he can't always have the back surgery excuse especially when he's supposed to lead this team/franchise when Kobe retires.

He can't always have that excuse no... but maybe for the season after his back surgery that excuse makes sense.

Next year a different metric will obviously have to be used, but this season he's still fresh off of surgery and now with a torn labrum. He's never averaged 22/15 when the team fed him every single time up the floor. Coming to a new team with 3 other Hall of Fame players, you expected those numbers to jump like that?

karacha wrote:^

He never averaged 22/15, and it is certainly difficult on a new team while recovering from a back surgery.

Not only this..... but he's never played with a team of "leading men" before..... or a 10 RPG guy like Pau.

I expected very similar numbers to our previous center actually. I didn't seem much room for expansion of that position's role regardless of who was playing it. Too many other good to great options on this team for Howard to get more than 10 to 12 shots a game. The shots per game stat is not really indicative of his "touches" as he gets fouled intentionally more than anyone in the league.... so 10 shots a game for him equals about what Bynum got last year in total opportunities. Another factor in his shots per game is his turnovers.... which is actually lower with us than it has been in previous years..... surprisingly....

^ The two things I expected more of him (and I think most people did) was his rebounds and his blocked shots. Right now he's doing both pretty much what we need from him. Last I checked he's either leading the league in rebounds or close to it and he's blocking close to 2.5 shots per game.

Next season, if he avoids surgery, we'll see an uptick in his offensive production just because he'll be healthier and less prone to getting moved around like he does now. Not to mention his rebounds should likely increase by a small amount since he should have that "second jump" ability he's lacking this season.

therealdeal wrote:^ The two things I expected more of him (and I think most people did) was his rebounds and his blocked shots. Right now he's doing both pretty much what we need from him. Last I checked he's either leading the league in rebounds or close to it and he's blocking close to 2.5 shots per game.

Next season, if he avoids surgery, we'll see an uptick in his offensive production just because he'll be healthier and less prone to getting moved around like he does now. Not to mention his rebounds should likely increase by a small amount since he should have that "second jump" ability he's lacking this season.

I'm not sure of that. It would seem more based on who his teammates are. If we can get shooters to open the middle he will most likely score more. In doing that if we get a "stretch 4" that isn't a great rebounder he will need to carry more of that load. If Pau is still here and the make-up is about the same he may get a point or two more from good health but the rebounding would be similar.

Another factor is our overall team defense.... if we can create turnovers the other team doesn't shoot as much and thus less opportunities for defensive rebounds and blocks.... If we force difficult shots we should have more opportunities for defensive rebounds....

This is why looking at stats in a vacuum and comparing year to year or team to team is difficult.

Well obviously if the team changes, his stats will look same, but if we're assuming a healthy Dwight playing with the same team, then my predictions are pretty likely.