D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby The Laker Link on Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:01 pm

Ariza3 wrote:
Dwight Howard has a clear beef with Golden State's David Lee. Dwight said: "He got away with ...
a shot," referring to Lee driving with his elbow leading and catching Howard in the face in the second quarter. Howard subsequently fouled Lee in the face on the play, which led to a technical foul on Howard and resulted in Howard taking three stitches to his lower lip.

I asked Dwight what David Lee said to him at the start of the second half, when Dwight looked at Lee in disbelief. Dwight said he was told that Lee "wasn't trying to do it." Then Dwight added: "You can look at the play and see it for yourself."

Dwight also said he would "take care of it later."

The Lakers play the Warriors one more time this regular season at Staples Center on April 12.


kobe and the lakers better make dwight #1 option that game bc hes gunna go off. and i really hope no body gets in his way and keeps the ball out of his hands on O bc he'll be grabbing and swatting everything on D that game. dude was pissed at lee for that obvious elbow. refs screwed with the lakers all game....not the reason we lost but did not help at all


Kobe is upset at the Hawks, and Dwight at the Warriors......now how about we think of those things every game, no matter who it is and let them both go off on whoever. Everyone should fall into place after that and then we win games.

Simple?
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby GoldenKnight on Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:06 pm

TIME wrote:Quit crying about 4th quarter touches. Want the ball in the 4th? Go dominate the offensive glass. No one can stop you from doing that.

If you're motivated.


This sounds a lot like D'Antoni, Dwight should be getting touches not depending on getting offensive rebounds everytime someone chucks up a shot. That's not how basketball works & that's not how he reached the finals in orlando.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby Chillbongo on Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:25 pm

I agree, but with our challenged coach I wish he had the balls to suck it up and make a difference some how. There was possessions he wasn't boxing out for offensive boards. There were possessions he'd watch Kobe iso instead of freeing up for an entry pass.

Even if he doesn't put up a shot, we should be running our offense inside-out.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby Vasashi17 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:27 pm

The Rock wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:
The Rock wrote:https://twitter.com/DrewGarrisonSBN/status/316591496679813121

Dwight averaging .93 ppp overall this season (57.1% fg), averaged .96 ppp last season (57.7% fg). Apparently being used blatantly wrong.

what is this stat?


just means his overall effectiveness. ppp is points per play. Supposedly he's being misused by D'Antoni yet his FG% and effectiveness per play is same as last year when he was the primary option in Orlando


So we're talking about his last season in Orlando...was that the season he led Orlando to the Finals or was it the one where an injury took him out early and that whole Dwightmare thing was following him around everywhere?

If you're going to bring in the best pick and roll finisher and pair him to the best pick and roll instigator, then you would think a coach that is known for his pick and roll offense would get that tandem more opportunities. I mean that is why LA brought him in...right?

This isn't about lack of 4th quarter touches...its about the tempo. D'Antoni has greenlit us being a perimeter oriented team, even without establishing the post. When things go in, everybody thinks the Lakers will leapfrog to the 6th seed...but when things aren't dropping, we resort to Kobe ball to dig us out (and when that doesn't work, the coach ridicules that type of play).

Its not hard to see that D'Antoni's offense is what is causing this vicious cycle. First of all you need legitimate jumpshooters to be a perimeter oriented team. Secondly, a perimeter offense doesn't win titles. People always point to Dallas and their hot shooting 2 years ago, but didn't they have Tyson Chandler, JKidd and the Matrix on that team? Wasn't that team led by Carlisle who's a defensive coach?

Finally, its true that Dwight is limited, but you need reps and exposure to get better and with D'Antoni at the helm, this guy is not going to get real gametime exposure in developing a post presence.

Develop good habits. They may lead to terrible results at first, but eventually it gets better and you go from there. This season is lost...so start developing Howard cause he will the future. But with this coach, that just ain't going to happen.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:28 pm

GoldenKnight wrote:
TIME wrote:Quit crying about 4th quarter touches. Want the ball in the 4th? Go dominate the offensive glass. No one can stop you from doing that.

If you're motivated.


This sounds a lot like D'Antoni, Dwight should be getting touches not depending on getting offensive rebounds everytime someone chucks up a shot. That's not how basketball works & that's not how he reached the finals in orlando.


interesting.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby Chillbongo on Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:34 pm

Vasash you couldn't have had a more logical argument. We really do live and die by the jump shot and it's disgusting. It looks amazing when we hit all our jumpers and shoot 50% from 3.

But when it fails and we have nothing to fall back on, we get the last 3 games in Laker land.

Dwight is best surrounded by shooters. But like he said, you have to establish Dwight as a threat first. That doesn't happen.

Two, you don' t have shooters or reliable shooters. Outside of Nash and sometimes Jamison, no one can be counted on to hit the 3 ball.

Wonder why Miami is so good? Other than D-Wade and LeBron, they're damn shooters are shooting 40% from the 3 point line. Imagine if 2 of our shooters did that.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby Weezy on Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:40 pm

You can't just throw the ball into Dwight in the 4th, he has almost zero offensive moves. One move last night late he was called for traveling even. If he gets fouled you know he's going to miss at least one of them, so he just isn't a great option down the stretch, soon as he touches it guys will just hack him so that even hurts the "play inside out because Dwight is a good passer" philosophy. You pretty much have to get Dwight a wide open dunk by drawing 2 and dumping it off to him at the hoop like Kobe used to do with Shaq, or get him an alley oop or he can't be really trusted with the ball, and that's easier said than done in the 4th quarter.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby Chillbongo on Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:48 pm

Weezy, him having moves isn't an issue IMO. The only issue is if he's getting hacked. That's the only time it isn't logical to throw the ball into Dwight.

Remember the Triangle? Inside-out basketball. Dump it in the post, set screens, make cuts, move the ball. Sometimes Dwight should make a move to the basket and take a shot.

He nearly always gets doubled. You're telling me we can't capitalize off that?
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby Weezy on Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:09 pm

No, it's a smart way to play, just doesn't seem to be in our offense at all, we know the coach hates post ups. I don't even see Dwight posting up a lot in the 4th though, like he wants the ball that bad. But I do stand by what I said, he is a bad option late in games, his lack of moves lead to turnovers like that travel, steals, ugly as hell shots like that airball little flip layup, and hacks resulting in missed free throws. Inside out is good, but Dwight doesn't really seem to get doubled only, he seems to get doubled and hacked, or doubled and fumbles the ball, we don't even have great shooters for him to pass out to, teams probably WANT us to shoot 3's.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby Chillbongo on Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:29 pm

Yeah, they do want us to. We just have to move the ball quicker and get a high percentage shot. Sometimes it won't be a 3.

I think the coaching is a large part of it. Hell it's the majority of the issue. I do see him turning it over and when he's getting hacked we have to do something else.

It is a two way street and I don't see Dwight posting up or getting in position for entry passes either. It makes me wonder.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby SpencerHarrison on Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:21 pm

Anyone who thinks Dwight is going to deliver consistent 4th quarter scoring in any capacity is out of their head.

He is a massive liability as a first option and on the foul line. He makes his money with second chances and dunks. Want to play inside out? That's fine I guess, but Dwight doesn't draw doubles so it defeats the purpose. To play inside out from the post, the player posting has got to draw attention. I'd rather have Kobe doing than than Dwight. Which is what the Lakers already do.

His lack of touches in the 4th is easily explained: He isn't good at creating a quality shot for himself on a consistent basis. The 4th quarter is usually a time when intensity ratchets up, and scorers have to deliver. Dwight is not a scorer. Kobe, Jamison, Nash, Blake, Meeks, etc.

There's just too many preferable options to Dwight with his back to the basket.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:26 pm

Chillbongo wrote:
He nearly always gets doubled. You're telling me we can't capitalize off that?


No he doesn't get doubled a lot at all. He just doesn't have many post moves to capitalize.
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby Chillbongo on Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:32 pm

Maybe not nearly always, but it happens. If he doesn't get doubled and can't score in 1-1 opportunities frequently then we should ship his a** out.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby Finwë on Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:40 pm

Doc Brown wrote:It's hard to justify dumping the ball into a guy in the post during a comeback that A.) Has a very limited post game and B.) Can't shoot free throws.

Should he be getting shots in the 4th quarter. Yes, for sure. But through pick and roll and cuts to the hoop. Any team with half a brain will just foul him as soon as he makes a move in the post.

There's a considerably lower chance IMO of D12 leading the team back from a large deficit by making 5-6 consecutive baskets than it is with Kobe or Nash taking those shots. Nash/Kobe have shown they can hit a bunch of consecutive shots, D12 is very inconsistent in that category because you never know what you are going to get.

This.
And I'll add that he's turnover prone, and pressure on D can result in multiple strips..

Something that's telling about Howard's back to the basket game, if there isn't enough evidence already, is that the D is willing to play him 1 on 1 A LOT more than they did, say, Bynum. That's because his 1 on 1 basketball skills are VERY poor, and if happens to make a good quick move, just foul him and he'll probably miss at least 1 FT..
So, if we do dump it into him, not only is there litlte chance he'll score effectively with his back to the basket, he won't be drawing extra defensive help to find open shooters often enough either..

Like Doc said, he should get touches, but only in the form of lobs, driving and dishing it for a dunk/lay in, and after pick and roll, if he manages to get open.
Also, like TIME said, a great way for him to get quality looks is to work harder on the offensive glass. A lot of physically weaker players with lesser athleticism are able to do that with sound positioning, anticipation, and most importantly, intense effort.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby Finwë on Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:54 pm

Vasashi17 wrote:
The Rock wrote:
puffyusaf#2 wrote:
The Rock wrote:https://twitter.com/DrewGarrisonSBN/status/316591496679813121

Dwight averaging .93 ppp overall this season (57.1% fg), averaged .96 ppp last season (57.7% fg). Apparently being used blatantly wrong.

what is this stat?


just means his overall effectiveness. ppp is points per play. Supposedly he's being misused by D'Antoni yet his FG% and effectiveness per play is same as last year when he was the primary option in Orlando


So we're talking about his last season in Orlando...was that the season he led Orlando to the Finals or was it the one where an injury took him out early and that whole Dwightmare thing was following him around everywhere?

If you're going to bring in the best pick and roll finisher and pair him to the best pick and roll instigator, then you would think a coach that is known for his pick and roll offense would get that tandem more opportunities. I mean that is why LA brought him in...right?

This isn't about lack of 4th quarter touches...its about the tempo. D'Antoni has greenlit us being a perimeter oriented team, even without establishing the post. When things go in, everybody thinks the Lakers will leapfrog to the 6th seed...but when things aren't dropping, we resort to Kobe ball to dig us out (and when that doesn't work, the coach ridicules that type of play).

Its not hard to see that D'Antoni's offense is what is causing this vicious cycle. First of all you need legitimate jumpshooters to be a perimeter oriented team. Secondly, a perimeter offense doesn't win titles. People always point to Dallas and their hot shooting 2 years ago, but didn't they have Tyson Chandler, JKidd and the Matrix on that team? Wasn't that team led by Carlisle who's a defensive coach?

Finally, its true that Dwight is limited, but you need reps and exposure to get better and with D'Antoni at the helm, this guy is not going to get real gametime exposure in developing a post presence.

Develop good habits. They may lead to terrible results at first, but eventually it gets better and you go from there. This season is lost...so start developing Howard cause he will the future. But with this coach, that just ain't going to happen.

I agree MDA and the coaching staff haven't done much to help Dwight get easier looks, but I don't agree on your point about P&R with Nash.
A couple of thoughts:
-Nash isn't as quick as he used to be, and he struggles against help on screens
-Nash's pick and roll style involves getting the ball to the screener quickly, a bit further from the basket than where Dwight would want it. Think about his P&R with Amare. He used to give him the ball 7-10 feet from the basket, and Amare could either shoot a little jumper, or weave his way to the rim and finish strong. Howard doesn't have the shooting touch or the coordination/dribbling ability to make either play.
-Howard, unless finding a clear path and getting lobs, used to play pick and roll in order to get great position on the block and score with his back to the basket. That's when he was fully healthy and he was doing better offensively. Since he's been with us his offensive game has suffered from inactivity (losing rythm and looking rusty) and obviously from not being fully healthy
-We don't have the spacing either guy was used to work with. Nash had a team full of reliable shooters in Phoenix, Dwight's orlando team was very similar. That made the pick and roll much more unguardable because other than the 2 defenders directly involved, there was little pressure since other defenders had to worry about the 3pt shooters killing them.
In contrast, we aren't close to that. Our shooters are inconsistent, and the D actually prefers that they get the ball instead of us going with our original play. They play off MWP, they play off Pau, they play off Clark.. Jamison, Meeks and Blake have all been streaky.

Of course there are ways to improve upon it, but considering our current state in terms of what I mentioned, I couldn't really blame MDA and the staff that much for our P&R not working as we'd originally expected
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby Vasashi17 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:27 pm

Finwe, astute observation. It seems like you watch alot of basketball and know what our personnel is capable of.

Yet, for some reason the FO chose MDA and his PnR offense for this team...and you would think they would have a clue that it was a bad fit.

This is where the problem lies for me....D'Antoni is just an unpleasant byproduct of what is really rotten about this organization right now.

I'm projecting my dismay of the FO onto D'Antoni and I'm afraid if this continues then the players will be next......next season may not be pretty.

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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby Ariza3 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:28 pm

4th quarter can't be Kobe ISO. it needs to involve ball movement with the ability for everyone to get a shot. not just load up on one side and let Kobe go 1v1 which is gunna work or not and most likely not. play the same way for the entire game and get everyone going and move the ball. defense is way to easy if all they have to do it guard Kobe 1v1 or double him and still have him shoot. it's BS and the coach has to do something. 4 total touches in the 4th quarter for every game this month is beyond pathetic. most of those games he's been awesome. Kobe just refuses to share the ball and no one says no to him including Dantoni. pathetic
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby Tobias Funke on Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:05 pm

Im not a supporter of Kobe taking every shot in crunch time, but if he's able to create for himself and get a good look at the basket then he's still your number one option and that's a good gamble unless he's shooting like 30 percent for the game. I haven't seen him shoot over a double team much at all, outside of a few catch-and-shoot plays that our great coach drew up. (Thats another thing about the guy, how can you complain about Kobe-ball and then draw up a play for Kobe during a timeout every single time).

As others here have said, Dwight's not a player that has shown you can dump the ball off to him and he can create and convert good looks, especially under pressure in crunch time. He really doesn't get doubled nearly as much as people think and yet even now that he's getting healthier and more explosive he still relies mostly on offensive putbacks or others creating for him for his points (they sure aren't coming from the foul line with his FT shooting).

I would like to see more plays where he's put into motion to punish his defender for being not as fast as he is (which is the case on many/most nights), but thats goes back to the coach. Either way we're not really missing much late in games by not throwing the ball down low to him in the post for him to create. Since his touch around the rim isn't great IMO it basically makes the shots he gets up tougher if that makes sense, or if he gets really good position they just foul him intentionally since, sad to say, Dwight splitting the FTs is a successful trip to the line for him.

As far as setting up anything late in games, I want the ball in the hands of Nash, Kobe or I guess Blake if he's in. Dwight's limited offensive game puts him on the level of a guy like Meeks who has to be spoonfed his shots to be effective. Even a guy like Meeks will most likely have get shots late in games since his comfort range for scoring isnt limited to being close to the basket like Dwight so its easier for our ball handlers to draw in his defender create a open look for him.

.......And ofcourse now that I look Finwe and some other people basically said the exact same thing. :man10:
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby JSM on Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:21 pm

Mike Bresnahan ‏@Mike_Bresnahan 1m
NBA has retroactively assessed David Lee a Flagrant One foul on the same play where Dwight Howard was called for a foul Monday vs. GS

Retroactive flagrants are one of the most pointless calls in the NBA.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby SK8 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:48 pm

Dwight Howard: 1st player with 25+ Pts, 15+ Rebounds, 5+ Blocks, 5+ Steals in game since Shaquille O'Neal (1996-97 season)


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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby karacha on Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:49 pm

He's a beast, yes. He even gets hacked and shoots FTs like Shaq. :man10:
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby therealdeal on Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:58 pm

Crazy game for him. Especially considering he was in foul trouble early.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby Weezy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:31 pm

Aside from the missed late free throws he had a monster game. Loved all those blocks, his defense was huge.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby JSM on Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:25 pm

Not counting the FTs during Hack-A-Howard, he had a DPOY caliber defensive performance -- especially in the first half. He shut down the lane and seemingly sent every shot Minny put up in the other direction. And it was great to see his teammates keep him involved and get him some easy looks at the rim in the second half. Hopefully we'll see more 4th quarters like this out of Howard, that it wasn't just a fluke.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Podcast interview highlights (935)

Postby Finwë on Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:35 pm

Huge props. Got into foul trouble but didn't get frustrated, and dominated on both ends.
His FTs remain a huge problem (the hack-a-dwight brought Minny back to life and almost cost us the game), and he's still a little too turnover prone (though everyone was turning it over tonight).

Hopefully he'll recover well for tomorrow's game, and show us more of the same. He handled Pekovic well tonight, it'll be interesting to see how he does against a different type of defender (not as strong, but a great shot blocker and quite mobile): Sanders. Dalembert should be guarding him for a while too.
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