D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Doc Brown on Tue May 28, 2013 5:24 am

Cleansed wrote:
The Rock wrote:So what if his best is behind him? He's still a better player than 90% of the league. He may not be a No.1 true alpha dog but he sure as hell a great defensive player. Some of us here are looking at what he's lacking instead of what he does have that are still essential components for winning a ring (drawing fouls, defending the paint, rebounding, drawing double teams, passing out of double teams, etc)


** Looks at Spurs run to the Finals and nods head in agreement **


And the person that is doing that for the Spurs is Tim Duncan @ 10 million a season.

1.) Dwight is nowhere near the level of player Tim Duncan is, even at 37 years old. Need evidence of that? Re-watch Duncan dismantle Dwight on both ends of the floor this past season.

2.) Dwight isn't going for 10 million. He's going for the max and those qualities listed above aren't max contract qualities.

Leadership - None
Free throws - Nope
Clutch shooting - Nope
Able to keep his head screwed on in games - Nope, ejected multiple times
Maturity - Nope
Dependable every game - Nope
Able to take over games when teammates are non-existent - Nope

Is Marc Gasol getting max?
Is Roy Hibbert getting max?
Is Tim Duncan getting max?
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Murdock on Tue May 28, 2013 5:34 am

Weezy wrote:Never have I agreed with Bill Simmons so much, that was an excellent read. I don't agree that Lakers fans would flip out if he left, I think a ton of us got pretty sick of him this season, but most everything else I agree on. Dwight is what he is, he's not getting better, he's peaked offensively, he may or may not ever get back to his Orlando Finals run self with the beating he takes each game, and his athleticism is only going to decline. I've said it before, I'll keep saying it, I don't care if he walks, I would have traded him at the deadline, and I would explore sign and trade options with Houston now as well. This is not a guy I give $118 million to carry my franchise for 5 years to, I don't see that he has it in him. Dwight is like a much less talented LeBron that never added to his game, matured and took the step to that next level like LeBron did, and I'm not sure he ever will at this point.


Gotta agree ... Dwight'S offensive game is so limited he is probably bottom 10 of starting C's when it comes to offense - his fundamentals are horrendous ... I mean Roy Hibbert looks like Kareem next to him

SpencerHarrison wrote:Second scenario is, he walks. Great news for Laker nation as well. It opens the door to spend money elsewhere. Mitch is the best in the business, and I would love to see him operate with some extra cash to move around. I think LA is attractive as a destination with or without stars. If the throne sits empty, that just makes it that much more attractive for somebody to come in and create a legacy. I don't buy the idea of needing a superstar to recruit other stars for a team like the Lakers. Brooklyn? Sure. But LA is legendary.

So regardless of Howard staying or going, I'm still looking forward to next season and then the free agency frenzy to follow it.


what great news? Mitch won't have a penny more to spent if dwight leaves ... we are over the cap ... the only thing that happens is that we lose the best defender and starting C yet we gain nobody instead of him since we can't sign someone ...
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby abeer3 on Tue May 28, 2013 6:32 am

wow. i'm just as mad as everyone else that it appears Dwight is leaving, but let's not diminish his value simply because it's going to be in different colors. marc gasol had the exact same problems howard did against SA's defensive schemes (for the exact same reason: Memphis guards can't shoot).

he's the best center in the game (unless you count Duncan as a center, which you shouldn't, because he rarely plays there). he's one of the few centers who can defend the post and the pick and roll well, and despite his obvious offensive limitations, he still scores pretty well.

losing him will hurt pretty bad. not to mention that I have a sneaking suspicion that he'll suddenly start getting foul calls on those strip attempts in which the defense rakes his arms. that was a season-long "screw you for making us look bad by ending up playing for the lakers" from the nba officials, imo.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby blinkme28 on Tue May 28, 2013 7:17 am

If he leaves I can't wait for Kobe to comeback and dunk over his a$$ again.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Rooscooter on Tue May 28, 2013 7:18 am

abeer3 wrote:wow. i'm just as mad as everyone else that it appears Dwight is leaving, but let's not diminish his value simply because it's going to be in different colors. marc gasol had the exact same problems howard did against SA's defensive schemes (for the exact same reason: Memphis guards can't shoot).

he's the best center in the game (unless you count Duncan as a center, which you shouldn't, because he rarely plays there). he's one of the few centers who can defend the post and the pick and roll well, and despite his obvious offensive limitations, he still scores pretty well.

losing him will hurt pretty bad. not to mention that I have a sneaking suspicion that he'll suddenly start getting foul calls on those strip attempts in which the defense rakes his arms. that was a season-long "screw you for making us look bad by ending up playing for the lakers" from the nba officials, imo.


If he leaves it will hurt... but I think it will be a short term hurt IMO. The problem with Dwight has never been what he CAN do it's what he can't do that he thinks he CAN do..... In this new era do you tie up your top Max slot for 5 years on a guy that is looks at himself as a lot more than he is? Not diminishing what he is but at the same time I'd also say that the gap between him and a guy like Marc Gasol is getting smaller.... not wider.

I've always been less of a believer in one player making a huge difference on defense. Defense is a team concept not one player "anchoring" the paint.... that is a fallacy we watched play out right in front of our eyes this year. So I'm not as sold on Dwight as the huge defensive difference maker that the media views him as either. Defense begins at the point of attack and not at the last line of defense. It's a team concept that takes time and willing participants to make a good defense. 4 good defenders can cover for the one who isn't good.... 1 cannot cover for 4 that aren't.

Losing Dwight (if we do) will mean that we bring the Kobe era to an end barring a miracle of some sort..... and that is unfortunate, but we needed a miracle to get Kobe #6 even with Dwight here as well.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Doc Brown on Tue May 28, 2013 7:47 am

abeer3 wrote:wow. i'm just as mad as everyone else that it appears Dwight is leaving, but let's not diminish his value simply because it's going to be in different colors. marc gasol had the exact same problems howard did against SA's defensive schemes (for the exact same reason: Memphis guards can't shoot).


Who said I was diminishing his value?

All the negatives I listed about Dwight, feel free to provide examples of him doing the opposite.

I used Gasol/Hibbert/Duncan as examples of players not making max because IMO Dwight isn't THAT much better than them when looking at their games as a whole.

Dwight is worth 15-18 million dollars, but we are going to have to pay the extra 3-6 million on the name that goes along with the game, if we want to keep him.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Azndude2190 on Tue May 28, 2013 8:08 am

Rooscooter wrote:
If he leaves it will hurt... but I think it will be a short term hurt IMO. The problem with Dwight has never been what he CAN do it's what he can't do that he thinks he CAN do..... In this new era do you tie up your top Max slot for 5 years on a guy that is looks at himself as a lot more than he is? Not diminishing what he is but at the same time I'd also say that the gap between him and a guy like Marc Gasol is getting smaller.... not wider.

I've always been less of a believer in one player making a huge difference on defense. Defense is a team concept not one player "anchoring" the paint.... that is a fallacy we watched play out right in front of our eyes this year. So I'm not as sold on Dwight as the huge defensive difference maker that the media views him as either. Defense begins at the point of attack and not at the last line of defense. It's a team concept that takes time and willing participants to make a good defense. 4 good defenders can cover for the one who isn't good.... 1 cannot cover for 4 that aren't.

Losing Dwight (if we do) will mean that we bring the Kobe era to an end barring a miracle of some sort..... and that is unfortunate, but we needed a miracle to get Kobe #6 even with Dwight here as well.


Yea I agree that it'll hurt initially if he leaves, but lets be real, we aren't going anywhere with him on the team anyways. I would however try to go for a S&T and bring back some expiring contracts plus draft picks.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby abeer3 on Tue May 28, 2013 8:11 am

Rooscooter wrote:
If he leaves it will hurt... but I think it will be a short term hurt IMO. The problem with Dwight has never been what he CAN do it's what he can't do that he thinks he CAN do..... In this new era do you tie up your top Max slot for 5 years on a guy that is looks at himself as a lot more than he is? Not diminishing what he is but at the same time I'd also say that the gap between him and a guy like Marc Gasol is getting smaller.... not wider.


i'd like to agree on the first part, but the issue is finding the player that's actually worth the max slot. usually, they're drafted very high (luck is too big a factor there for my taste, too) and retained by their team for at least 7 years before anyone gets a crack at them. i mean, kevin love is the "star" most likely to change teams in FA next, and he'll command max as well. would you rather have him than dwight?

I've always been less of a believer in one player making a huge difference on defense. Defense is a team concept not one player "anchoring" the paint.... that is a fallacy we watched play out right in front of our eyes this year. So I'm not as sold on Dwight as the huge defensive difference maker that the media views him as either. Defense begins at the point of attack and not at the last line of defense. It's a team concept that takes time and willing participants to make a good defense. 4 good defenders can cover for the one who isn't good.... 1 cannot cover for 4 that aren't.


i disagree. i think once howard started to look like himself again, we saw the impact he can have (he won a few games with defensive stands). compare that to what we saw at times last year, when teams simply went right at pau in crunch time. teams tried to get out of the paint against dwight. that's good news. you're right that the problem is that the rest of the team was all so terrible that no amount of individual greatness could cover it up. that could change if dwight stayed.


Losing Dwight (if we do) will mean that we bring the Kobe era to an end barring a miracle of some sort..... and that is unfortunate, but we needed a miracle to get Kobe #6 even with Dwight here as well.


i think it also means a much longer rebuild than you're suggesting. i mean, houston's supposed to be a great FA destination because they have cap space and harden. the lakers could have cap space and howard. cap space and nothing makes you the bobcats.

as far as not going anywhere with him...i don't know. the lakers had the second best record in the west, post all-star break, right? they weren't as bad as they looked in the playoffs; that's just the most recent memory. imo, they could be quite competitive next year with some minor tweaks, and very competitive the following year, once they'd purged some contractual dead weight.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Center Court on Tue May 28, 2013 9:07 am

abeer3 wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
If he leaves it will hurt... but I think it will be a short term hurt IMO. The problem with Dwight has never been what he CAN do it's what he can't do that he thinks he CAN do..... In this new era do you tie up your top Max slot for 5 years on a guy that is looks at himself as a lot more than he is? Not diminishing what he is but at the same time I'd also say that the gap between him and a guy like Marc Gasol is getting smaller.... not wider.


i'd like to agree on the first part, but the issue is finding the player that's actually worth the max slot. usually, they're drafted very high (luck is too big a factor there for my taste, too) and retained by their team for at least 7 years before anyone gets a crack at them. i mean, kevin love is the "star" most likely to change teams in FA next, and he'll command max as well. would you rather have him than dwight?

I've always been less of a believer in one player making a huge difference on defense. Defense is a team concept not one player "anchoring" the paint.... that is a fallacy we watched play out right in front of our eyes this year. So I'm not as sold on Dwight as the huge defensive difference maker that the media views him as either. Defense begins at the point of attack and not at the last line of defense. It's a team concept that takes time and willing participants to make a good defense. 4 good defenders can cover for the one who isn't good.... 1 cannot cover for 4 that aren't.


i disagree. i think once howard started to look like himself again, we saw the impact he can have (he won a few games with defensive stands). compare that to what we saw at times last year, when teams simply went right at pau in crunch time. teams tried to get out of the paint against dwight. that's good news. you're right that the problem is that the rest of the team was all so terrible that no amount of individual greatness could cover it up. that could change if dwight stayed.


Losing Dwight (if we do) will mean that we bring the Kobe era to an end barring a miracle of some sort..... and that is unfortunate, but we needed a miracle to get Kobe #6 even with Dwight here as well.


i think it also means a much longer rebuild than you're suggesting. i mean, houston's supposed to be a great FA destination because they have cap space and harden. the lakers could have cap space and howard. cap space and nothing makes you the bobcats.

as far as not going anywhere with him...i don't know. the lakers had the second best record in the west, post all-star break, right? they weren't as bad as they looked in the playoffs; that's just the most recent memory. imo, they could be quite competitive next year with some minor tweaks, and very competitive the following year, once they'd purged some contractual dead weight.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Center Court on Tue May 28, 2013 9:10 am

abeer3 wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
If he leaves it will hurt... but I think it will be a short term hurt IMO. The problem with Dwight has never been what he CAN do it's what he can't do that he thinks he CAN do..... In this new era do you tie up your top Max slot for 5 years on a guy that is looks at himself as a lot more than he is? Not diminishing what he is but at the same time I'd also say that the gap between him and a guy like Marc Gasol is getting smaller.... not wider.


i'd like to agree on the first part, but the issue is finding the player that's actually worth the max slot. usually, they're drafted very high (luck is too big a factor there for my taste, too) and retained by their team for at least 7 years before anyone gets a crack at them. i mean, kevin love is the "star" most likely to change teams in FA next, and he'll command max as well. would you rather have him than dwight?

I've always been less of a believer in one player making a huge difference on defense. Defense is a team concept not one player "anchoring" the paint.... that is a fallacy we watched play out right in front of our eyes this year. So I'm not as sold on Dwight as the huge defensive difference maker that the media views him as either. Defense begins at the point of attack and not at the last line of defense. It's a team concept that takes time and willing participants to make a good defense. 4 good defenders can cover for the one who isn't good.... 1 cannot cover for 4 that aren't.


i disagree. i think once howard started to look like himself again, we saw the impact he can have (he won a few games with defensive stands). compare that to what we saw at times last year, when teams simply went right at pau in crunch time. teams tried to get out of the paint against dwight. that's good news. you're right that the problem is that the rest of the team was all so terrible that no amount of individual greatness could cover it up. that could change if dwight stayed.


Losing Dwight (if we do) will mean that we bring the Kobe era to an end barring a miracle of some sort..... and that is unfortunate, but we needed a miracle to get Kobe #6 even with Dwight here as well.


i think it also means a much longer rebuild than you're suggesting. i mean, houston's supposed to be a great FA destination because they have cap space and harden. the lakers could have cap space and howard. cap space and nothing makes you the bobcats.

as far as not going anywhere with him...i don't know. the lakers had the second best record in the west, post all-star break, right? they weren't as bad as they looked in the playoffs; that's just the most recent memory. imo, they could be quite competitive next year with some minor tweaks, and very competitive the following year, once they'd purged some contractual dead weight.



Finally a voice of reason.

Losing Dwight is a big blow. I am not sure how anyone can call that a short term hurt. He's the best center in the NBA and maybe he is never going to be in the Kobe, Bron, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, etc category, but he changes the game in a way that no other player can in the NBA right now. Besides, we've yet to see him 100% healthy.

As abeer said, Dwight + LA + Lakers + Max Cap Space is very attractive. Having max cap space but no pillar in place is still a great situation for a max player or 2 to come here, but it's not the same.

In the short term, a healthy Dwight + focused effort of interior play + great role players with Kobe/Nash/Gasol is good enough to compete for a ring. We fizzled out in the playoffs and that's all that is on our minds, but we had 2 d league guys starting. We had no Kobe/Nash/Blake/Meeks. Jamison was banged up and Hill was just getting back into shape.

An infusion of young players, shooters, and new energy to this team can do wonders IMO. Keep us competitive then we can pair love and a stud PG with Howard. But losing Howard we rely on an old core to win us games... look at how that went for Boston this year once Rondo went down.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Lakerjones on Tue May 28, 2013 9:29 am

^^ I actually think both Roos and abeer3 make great points. It's actually a really good dialogue going on here. I can see both sides of this and I don't think anyone knows exactly which one will be right, or even if Dwight will leave. It might be very tough for the Lakers if Dwight leaves. Then again it might be better for them, or at least not as bad as it seems to be. It really could go either way. Going to have to stay tuned for July!

In the mean time there's been no mention of Kupchak. When does Jim Buss need to re-sign him? Wouldn't that need to be now or at least soon? That would seem to be the first thing that needs to happen this off season.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby The Rock on Tue May 28, 2013 10:00 am

Heres the thing if you dont want Dwight back for a max, whats the alternative? Is there a better plan out there? Are star free agents gonna flock here in 14 and 15 without a star already in place? Whos gonna want to spend their primes where the team is gonna start from Square 1
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Chillbongo on Tue May 28, 2013 10:26 am

Rock, Shaq did it in 1996. But the idea preceding that is 4 years of stinkage. We built up some nice pieces, and lured Shaq. Maybe we get lucky again and score big in the draft. Doesn't have to come to that. We can get better before then.

We still have KOBE. He can lure guys and I think a lot of us are forgetting that Kobe will likely still be a Laker in 2014-15. Maybe not the top 5 player but still Kobe. So to answer your question I think a star player would want to come here even if we don't have Dwight.

Another thing, if we get a legitimate FO that is trusted to put a championship team on the floor it increases our chance of getting a star. Back in 1996 we had Dr Buss/West. If we can get Phil in an FO role, I think teams will buy into the Lakers future. As it stands though, I wouldn't blame them for not trusting Jim and puppet Mitch.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Center Court on Tue May 28, 2013 10:34 am

The Rock wrote:Heres the thing if you dont want Dwight back for a max, whats the alternative? Is there a better plan out there? Are star free agents gonna flock here in 14 and 15 without a star already in place? Whos gonna want to spend their primes where the team is gonna start from Square 1


exactly..

people clamor for Kevin Love but what is it that he's done? He barely played for a year. Curry/Westbrook/Harden are locked up.
Cleaveland is not letting Kyrie go and by then they may have a powerhouse built of Irving/Waiters/Wiggens/Thompson/Noel.
Washington is going to do all it can to keep Wall (best chance we got at a great young PG) but that's a year away.

I fail to see that guy who Laker fans see as more of a max guy. CP3 is staying. LeBron, KD, and Rose are not going anywhere.

Healthy Dwight is on par with those guys. Give him a decent core, and we can win games. Give him a great core and we're contenders. Give him another young superstar and we're in the hunt for the next 5 years.

Our plan should to maximize talent around him and Kobe now. Get younger shooters and speed. Then in 2014 reload fully. Hopefully, Love and Wall can fall into our laps.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Chillbongo on Tue May 28, 2013 10:37 am

Rooscooter wrote:I've always been less of a believer in one player making a huge difference on defense. Defense is a team concept not one player "anchoring" the paint.... that is a fallacy we watched play out right in front of our eyes this year. So I'm not as sold on Dwight as the huge defensive difference maker that the media views him as either.

Roo I wouldn't say it's a fallacy. Some of the top defensive players this year were also anchor, and also happen to be on the last 4 teams still alive this season. Marc Gasol at Memphis, Tim Duncan at SA, Roy Hibbert at Indiana, and LeBron in Miami though he is the exception to the anchor status.

Of course it helps that Paul George, Tony Allen, Dwayne Wade, and Mike Conley are also upper echelon defenders in the league, so I do agree to an extent. Defense is team oriented, but having an elite anchor does make a difference. The other factor is the defensive system which is largely influenced by the personnel on the team.

To be elite defensively, you need all three; a great defensive scheme, great defensive players, and a capable anchor. Miami is the only team out of the remaining teams in the playoffs whose best defender isn't their anchor. But that doesn't mean anchors useless. When done right (IND, MEM , SAS) with a great system and complementary players, having an anchor makes a huge difference.

Dwight could have been a lot more effective on defense this year....1)coach didn't emphasize defense 2)player personnel was defensively inefficient 3)personal effort level
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Balance&Options24 on Tue May 28, 2013 11:30 am

Since big name free agents usually want to play in LA. Do the Lakers lose a bit of clout if Dwight leaves. He will be the biggest name we lose to free agency.



Who is the best player we have lost to FA so far? any player we have lost has been through trade.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Savory Griddles on Tue May 28, 2013 11:33 am

Balance&Options24 wrote:Since big name free agents usually want to play in LA. Do the Lakers lose a bit of clout if Dwight leaves. He will be the biggest name we lose to free agency.



Who is the best player we have lost to FA so far? any player we have lost has been through trade.


I think the key is getting something back for Dwight if he leaves. Sign and trade may be possible with Golden State or even Houston because he can get that extra year with Houston through a sign and trade.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby abeer3 on Tue May 28, 2013 11:57 am

Balance&Options24 wrote:Since big name free agents usually want to play in LA. Do the Lakers lose a bit of clout if Dwight leaves. He will be the biggest name we lose to free agency.


i was thinking this, too. the lakers fall from grace will be pretty complete if howard walks.

congratulations, stern. enjoy trying to get people to watch without your primary villain being relevant.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Lakerman JSJ on Tue May 28, 2013 12:14 pm

I'm cool with Dwight leaving or staying. Either way, we still have what teams covet most when forming a roster: Flexibility. Mitch has shown he knows how to put a championship-caliber roster together even without a lot of financial flexibility. Curious to see what he does either around Dwight or starting fresh.

If Dwight walks, I think we see Pau moved for prospects/picks with an eye on going all out for a big FA after next season. One headcase bolting because he can't handle LA's pressure doesn't sully the Lakers as a premiere destination for free agents.

Also, it's a gamble bringing Dwight back anyway for all the reasons Simmons laid out. We are pretty sure his back will continue to improve so he can get back to his 2009-level, but do we really know this? Shouldn't we KNOW this before committing a 5-year max contract to someone? Risky even if he stays.

Sorry, not buying all the doomsday scenarios around here. In the short-term, it piles onto the crummy luck we've had these past few seasons, but we'll be fine. We're not talking about a Kobe or Lebron-type talent leaving here.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby kenzo on Tue May 28, 2013 12:15 pm

Im def in the "sad if he leaves" camp. I want to see us play some D for a change and who better to start with than Howard :jam2:
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Weezy on Tue May 28, 2013 12:20 pm

The Rock wrote:Heres the thing if you dont want Dwight back for a max, whats the alternative? Is there a better plan out there? Are star free agents gonna flock here in 14 and 15 without a star already in place? Whos gonna want to spend their primes where the team is gonna start from Square 1


So we settle for a player with a big name just because he's the current best available? Not because he's the right player to take over the franchise and lead us to titles? No thanks, I'm not for giving a guy a 5 years 118 mil deal just because there's no immediate better plan. Things can change in one offseason, stars could come here even without Dwight in place because it's LA and they want to take over as the franchise star, and Mitch could use that magic wand and make some good deals. I just don't believe our entire future depends on Dwight, as Simmons pointed out this is not 2009 Dwight anymore. I'd honestly rather rebuild than take the biggest name available by default, especially if he's not the right fit. I was indifferent to Dwight saying or going, but now I'm starting to hope he does leave for Houston just so we can see how overrated he's being these days just because he's a big name and to have it proven that he couldn't handle the pressure of LA. Being a big name is nice, but you also have to maintain your game to back up being a big name star, and as Simmons pointed out, he hasn't for a while now.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby revgen on Tue May 28, 2013 12:48 pm

Chillbongo wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:I've always been less of a believer in one player making a huge difference on defense. Defense is a team concept not one player "anchoring" the paint.... that is a fallacy we watched play out right in front of our eyes this year. So I'm not as sold on Dwight as the huge defensive difference maker that the media views him as either.

Roo I wouldn't say it's a fallacy. Some of the top defensive players this year were also anchor, and also happen to be on the last 4 teams still alive this season. Marc Gasol at Memphis, Tim Duncan at SA, Roy Hibbert at Indiana, and LeBron in Miami though he is the exception to the anchor status.

Of course it helps that Paul George, Tony Allen, Dwayne Wade, and Mike Conley are also upper echelon defenders in the league, so I do agree to an extent. Defense is team oriented, but having an elite anchor does make a difference. The other factor is the defensive system which is largely influenced by the personnel on the team.

To be elite defensively, you need all three; a great defensive scheme, great defensive players, and a capable anchor. Miami is the only team out of the remaining teams in the playoffs whose best defender isn't their anchor. But that doesn't mean anchors useless. When done right (IND, MEM , SAS) with a great system and complementary players, having an anchor makes a huge difference.

Dwight could have been a lot more effective on defense this year....1)coach didn't emphasize defense 2)player personnel was defensively inefficient 3)personal effort level


My how things change. Last year, our "slow center" was the one holding up our defensive rotations.

Now it's the rest of the team holding up Dwight.

Was anybody ever talking about Marc Gasol being DPOY before this season? He's fairly slow and can barely jump off the ground. Look at his "jump" shots.

The perimeter players and their rotations have always been the weak link on this team defensively. Resulting in the big man (Bynum or Dwight) never receiving help when they left to help. Whether it was slow Fisher, lazy Ramon Sessions, slow Steve Nash, Kobe leaving shooters open to "roam" for steals to pad his stats, Blake ignorantly going over screens against speedy guards like JJ Barea, Metta focusing too much on his man instead of helping his teamates, and Pau just being lazy, rotations have always been poor regardless of who the anchor is.

Look at Dwight's defensive production before Stan Van Gundy came aboard. It speaks for itself. You need to have a system for the defense to work. Do personnel matter? Sure, but like folks were saying during Dwightmare last offseason, Orlando's players weren't great individual defenders, but they at least were fundamentally sound. They went over the pick on shooters. Under the pick on drivers. They helped each other, and Dwight played his role. And if they didn't do what they were supposed to do, SVG would be screaming at them in the huddle and getting into their face about it.

We're not going to build a functional defensive system under D'Antoni. But I'm hoping we can bring in Nate McMillan and he's given free reign to coach this team defensively.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby lakersin4 on Tue May 28, 2013 1:02 pm

Lakerman JSJ wrote:I'm cool with Dwight leaving or staying. Either way, we still have what teams covet most when forming a roster: Flexibility. Mitch has shown he knows how to put a championship-caliber roster together even without a lot of financial flexibility. Curious to see what he does either around Dwight or starting fresh.

If Dwight walks, I think we see Pau moved for prospects/picks with an eye on going all out for a big FA after next season. One headcase bolting because he can't handle LA's pressure doesn't sully the Lakers as a premiere destination for free agents.

Also, it's a gamble bringing Dwight back anyway for all the reasons Simmons laid out. We are pretty sure his back will continue to improve so he can get back to his 2009-level, but do we really know this? Shouldn't we KNOW this before committing a 5-year max contract to someone? Risky even if he stays.

Sorry, not buying all the doomsday scenarios around here. In the short-term, it piles onto the crummy luck we've had these past few seasons, but we'll be fine. We're not talking about a Kobe or Lebron-type talent leaving here.

I don't think people are worried about Dwight leaving because they think he could lead us to titles.. But you need to have that 2nd star to make a top 5 player think he can come win here.. He isn't Durant or Lebron but he's the Westbrook/Wade that would help sell that star on playing here next offseason.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby Chillbongo on Tue May 28, 2013 1:13 pm

revgen wrote:
Chillbongo wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:I've always been less of a believer in one player making a huge difference on defense. Defense is a team concept not one player "anchoring" the paint.... that is a fallacy we watched play out right in front of our eyes this year. So I'm not as sold on Dwight as the huge defensive difference maker that the media views him as either.

Roo I wouldn't say it's a fallacy. Some of the top defensive players this year were also anchor, and also happen to be on the last 4 teams still alive this season. Marc Gasol at Memphis, Tim Duncan at SA, Roy Hibbert at Indiana, and LeBron in Miami though he is the exception to the anchor status.

Of course it helps that Paul George, Tony Allen, Dwayne Wade, and Mike Conley are also upper echelon defenders in the league, so I do agree to an extent. Defense is team oriented, but having an elite anchor does make a difference. The other factor is the defensive system which is largely influenced by the personnel on the team.

To be elite defensively, you need all three; a great defensive scheme, great defensive players, and a capable anchor. Miami is the only team out of the remaining teams in the playoffs whose best defender isn't their anchor. But that doesn't mean anchors useless. When done right (IND, MEM , SAS) with a great system and complementary players, having an anchor makes a huge difference.

Dwight could have been a lot more effective on defense this year....1)coach didn't emphasize defense 2)player personnel was defensively inefficient 3)personal effort level


My how things change. Last year, our "slow center" was the one holding up our defensive rotations.

Now it's the rest of the team holding up Dwight.

Was anybody ever talking about Marc Gasol being DPOY before this season? He's fairly slow and can barely jump off the ground. Look at his "jump" shots.

The perimeter players and their rotations have always been the weak link on this team defensively. Resulting in the big man (Bynum or Dwight) never receiving help when they left to help. Whether it was slow Fisher, lazy Ramon Sessions, slow Steve Nash, Kobe leaving shooters open to "roam" for steals to pad his stats, Blake ignorantly going over screens against speedy guards like JJ Barea, Metta focusing too much on his man instead of helping his teamates, and Pau just being lazy, rotations have always been poor regardless of who the anchor is.

Look at Dwight's defensive production before Stan Van Gundy came aboard. It speaks for itself. You need to have a system for the defense to work. Do personnel matter? Sure, but like folks were saying during Dwightmare last offseason, Orlando's players weren't great individual defenders, but they at least were fundamentally sound. They went over the pick on shooters. Under the pick on drivers. They helped each other, and Dwight played his role. And if they didn't do what they were supposed to do, SVG would be screaming at them in the huddle and getting into their face about it.

We're not going to build a functional defensive system under D'Antoni. But I'm hoping we can bring in Nate McMillan and he's given free reign to coach this team defensively.


Wait, so does an anchor matter or not? I know you share my opinion on what makes a team defensively elite but I can't tell if you are downplaying Dwight as an anchor, or downplaying Dwight's effectiveness because of our [lack of] defensive system.

As I stated, I think we don't have a system, we didn't have good defenders (at least the ORL players like Nelson and Lee were quick enough to stay in front of their men), and to top it off Dwight wasn't always putting in a full effort defensively.
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Re: Dwight Discussion: Dwightmare on Figueroa St. Part Boo

Postby pound4pound1 on Tue May 28, 2013 1:17 pm

DAMN


that Simmons article was dead on...i hate agreeing with that Celtic homer but that piece he wrote was the truth
.
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