D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby C0TT0NCANDY on Wed May 08, 2013 8:10 am

That's because the Lakers need better scouts. anyways I'm sticking to my prediction that if Howard does not get surrounded by players that fits his game well he will be a goner... just my opinion of course..
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby karacha on Wed May 08, 2013 8:14 am

He can not be "surrounded" by them now. We can maybe get something for Pau, but that's about it. Summer next year is where he can have the team built around him.
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby KareemTheGreat33 on Wed May 08, 2013 8:16 am

The TW deal pays for the players salary every year. That is the Lakers big advantage. The team has no fiscal cliff. Few teams has that ability (maybe the two New York based teams). We give this group one last chance next season and build around a healthy D12 going forward.
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby Murdock on Wed May 08, 2013 9:19 am

KareemTheGreat33 wrote:The TW deal pays for the players salary every year. That is the Lakers big advantage. The team has no fiscal cliff. Few teams has that ability (maybe the two New York based teams). We give this group one last chance next season and build around a healthy D12 going forward.

that is true but it still doesn't sole the issue of not being able to sign anybody
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby last stand on Wed May 08, 2013 9:23 am

The lakers biggest hope has to be that Dwight has that Lebron 2012 type thing where it all just suddenly clicks
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby Rooscooter on Wed May 08, 2013 9:51 am

abeer3 wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:First.... These are more or less the facts here. Howard is a cornerstone but he isn't a top 5 cornerstone IMO. In that he's going to carry a team down the stretch or be the mental leader..... So he will need a very strong number two guy to be on a team that will go deep in the playoffs. Now he was just on a team with 3 other HOF players that barely made the playoffs so I'm not sure of your statement about a Howard team not being a lottery team..... We were nearly one THIS year.


I hope Dwight's less emotional about this season than lakers fans are. it was a Murphy's Law type year, and the team still made the playoffs (again, ahead of Houston). if you believe that's what we should expect and/or that the lakers can't find quality complimentary pieces to put around howard going forward, we can't really have a conversation. you're assuming all negatives for the lakers and all positives for other teams.

Taxes.... lets say Howard makes a total of 60M a year off his NBA deal, endorsements and investments...... Now even if you are right about the "road game" scenario that doesn't apply to his other income which will be a lot more than what he gets from his NBA salary. He has the potential to save between 6 and 7 million a year in Texas...... Over 5 years that's over 30 million.... Where have I heard that number before?


taxes on a smaller number, if what we're led to believe about the value of his endorsements varying based on location. so, potentially moot or worse. it's only saving if it comes off the same amount.

I'm not predicting he leaves rather showing that going to a state without income tax is a real factor here....especially in light of difference between CA and Texas.


Deron Williams could have done this last year and didn't. in fact, i'm trying to think of a guy who switched teams and cited taxes as a concern. let's also not forget that these guys have the best accountants money can buy. i don't pretend to be a tax expert, but i know that, for example, my parents kept a residence in texas and designated it as their primary, even though they really spent most of their time elsewhere. they did this for tax purposes. tom cruise used to have a house a couple miles from where i lived in a suburb of dallas, but i'm not sure he'd ever been to the place. in other words, i'm pretty sure dwight could get out of CA state taxes on non-basketball income, or at least greatly reduce its impact.

what's implicit in my comments above is that if taxes were a huge issue, wouldn't more players flock to the three texas teams? because all three have basically been shut out by FAs in recent years. SA just keeps their own guys, and dallas and houston have continually struck out in FA.


Can't even have a conversation?.... :man10:
Why not? We just put a team of players with more past success than Howard has enjoyed and it ended in a sweep after barely making the playoffs. That's not an opinion. Now before we start debating injuries the larger point here is what we can do in the future not what happened this year other than to note that we put some decent players on the floor this year.

Going forward do you think what we will have to offer will land a player that has the capabilities that Kobe did THIS year? I don't. I don't think we can even get a very good but flawed player like Harden here in the next few years. If you look at what happens when we go below the cap and who's available that summer it will be very difficult or just about impossible. Now what do we do with Kobe? We re-sign Howard and Kobe for about 35 to 38 million. We will have another 10 mil or so on the books at that time and a rookie slot..... So we're pushing 45 to 48 mil now with 8 slots or so to fill. I'd love for someone to connect the dots and show me how we can build a team of appropriate players and that key top 5 wing player that we would need to get in contention again.... I don't see it as a high probability.

The same argument used to say Howard won't leave (extra year and more per) is the same hurdle we will need to cross to get a max player to leave another team. Why does it only work for us and not other teams?

Finally, taxes. Where you reside for 9 months is your place of residence. CA adds that if you travel primarily for work that the originating address for your employer will be used. That's how the keep the revenue from the Hollywood guys coming in. He can escape the road game revenue but the endorsement, investment and other income will be taxed in CA.

Now I did say that I don't think he's leaving, but I also wouldn't be completely surprised if he did. The new CBA is going to be a mother for a team in our position..... It was done that way by design.
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby abeer3 on Wed May 08, 2013 11:12 am

Rooscooter wrote:
Can't even have a conversation?.... :man10:
Why not? We just put a team of players with more past success than Howard has enjoyed and it ended in a sweep after barely making the playoffs. That's not an opinion. Now before we start debating injuries the larger point here is what we can do in the future not what happened this year other than to note that we put some decent players on the floor this year.


dude, you're reaching and you know it. the team that took the floor in the playoffs (or really, at any point in the entire season) isn't the team you'd expect next year.

Going forward do you think what we will have to offer will land a player that has the capabilities that Kobe did THIS year? I don't. I don't think we can even get a very good but flawed player like Harden here in the next few years. If you look at what happens when we go below the cap and who's available that summer it will be very difficult or just about impossible. Now what do we do with Kobe? We re-sign Howard and Kobe for about 35 to 38 million. We will have another 10 mil or so on the books at that time and a rookie slot..... So we're pushing 45 to 48 mil now with 8 slots or so to fill. I'd love for someone to connect the dots and show me how we can build a team of appropriate players and that key top 5 wing player that we would need to get in contention again.... I don't see it as a high probability.


can't speculate as i don't know what kobe will look like or if he'll even play past next year. i'm confident the lakers can outdo harden/lin/parsons/asik given 35 million to spend.

The same argument used to say Howard won't leave (extra year and more per) is the same hurdle we will need to cross to get a max player to leave another team. Why does it only work for us and not other teams?


i didn't say max player; howard took a team of non-allstars to the finals a few years back because the team was constructed to complement his strengths. the lakers can do that. also, you're ruling out taking on overpaid but good players using that cap space. this is essentially how the lakers got gasol, and it's also how the grizz got zbo in the wake of that deal. there's more than one way to improve when you have space.

but if a franchise is going to lure a high caliber FA, it's likely to be the lakers, especially if they already have a star in place. this is why all other fans hate them so much.

Finally, taxes. Where you reside for 9 months is your place of residence. CA adds that if you travel primarily for work that the originating address for your employer will be used. That's how the keep the revenue from the Hollywood guys coming in. He can escape the road game revenue but the endorsement, investment and other income will be taxed in CA.


this i did not know. how do you prove "residence"?

i'm also not sure how that applies to endorsement income, particularly when the "employer" is not based in CA (e.g., adidas is in oregon).

Karaffa, like other accountants interviewed for this article, declined to identify his clients, but relocation for tax relief by men and women who play games for a living isn’t new. Former Los Angeles Angels outfielder Torii Hunter, who recently signed with the Detroit Tigers, made headlines last year when he announced a move to Texas because of the state’s lack of income tax. The move didn't shelter his game checks from income taxes, but it did allow him to save taxes on other income, including for endorsements and autograph signings.


http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/01/3 ... er-states/

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/01/3 ... z2Sj4o4gD5


Now I did say that I don't think he's leaving, but I also wouldn't be completely surprised if he did. The new CBA is going to be a mother for a team in our position..... It was done that way by design.


actually, the new cba was supposed to make it even more likely that teams could retain their top priority players. we'll see...
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby Rooscooter on Wed May 08, 2013 11:39 am

^^The State tax stuff is in State Law and CA just revised their State Law with the new tax rates passed last year.

Prove residency?!.... Typically it's where you live 9 months out of the year or where your place of work is. Again, each State had different laws.

Now for my "reach"..... and Howard's "non all star team". He had other all stars on that team... if memory serves there were at least 2 others if not 3 on that team.

As for having 35 million to spend... If Howard is in at 20 and Kobe at 12 to 15 and Nash still around at 9 that's about 42 to 45 right there. The cap will be around 58 or so.... we will have a full MLE I believe so that will mean we'd have another 16 to 20 to spend to fill out the roster. Harden, Asik, Lee, Parsons etc. would be a god send IMO for 20 million.

Again, unless I'm missing something.... If Kobe goes off the books in 15 or 16 we would still not have a max slot available and may not even be under the cap by much if any unless we start doing the thing where we only are going after players that can be on short, cheap contracts again hoping for the hanging curveball.
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby abeer3 on Wed May 08, 2013 12:00 pm

Rooscooter wrote:Prove residency?!.... Typically it's where you live 9 months out of the year or where your place of work is. Again, each State had different laws.


yes. lots of athletes "live" in different states than the ones in which they work, hence the snippet i provided about torii hunter "living" in tx but playing for detroit. hunter can't possibly live for 9 months in texas, but the article suggested he has "residency" there. my parents had residency in texas while living more than half the year in another state.

Now for my "reach"..... and Howard's "non all star team". He had other all stars on that team... if memory serves there were at least 2 others if not 3 on that team.


you're not going to like this, but i think you're reaching again. you really think jameer nelson and rashard lewis were all star caliber players? there's allstars and there's jamaal magloire specials. these were the latter (one and done, thanks dwight!). the lakers can get those.

As for having 35 million to spend... If Howard is in at 20 and Kobe at 12 to 15 and Nash still around at 9 that's about 42 to 45 right there. The cap will be around 58 or so.... we will have a full MLE I believe so that will mean we'd have another 16 to 20 to spend to fill out the roster. Harden, Asik, Lee, Parsons etc. would be a god send IMO for 20 million.


IF kobe's still getting paid that much, don't you have to assume he's an allstar-level player or better? i don't see the lakers paying him that much if he's a shell of his former self.

then, you lump harden in with the other three, which isn't comparing apples to apples. harden = kobe/nash, both in salary and value at that point, probably. so you're wondering if you can do better than asik/lin/parsons with 15-20 million. i say why not? those guys currently cost the rockets something in that range.

Again, unless I'm missing something.... If Kobe goes off the books in 15 or 16 we would still not have a max slot available and may not even be under the cap by much if any unless we start doing the thing where we only are going after players that can be on short, cheap contracts again hoping for the hanging curveball.


kobe's off the books in 14-15. you've built all of this on an assumption that is far from guaranteed. in this case, they have 30 on the books (plus some holds) in what would project to be a 60+ million cap. there's a lot of room for creativity there, and the lakers would be a #1 FA/trade demand destination.

put it this way, i'm hearing that houston is irresistable with 17 to spend and james harden as the centerpiece. why wouldn't la be irresistable with 30 to spend and howard as the centerpiece?

i just see a lot of "grass is greener" stuff in this thread, so i'm trying to balance it out.

i don't think dwight's a lock to stay, but i wholeheartedly disagree that the logical choice would be to leave. in sum: houston's not that good.
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby last stand on Wed May 08, 2013 12:05 pm

Houston isn't that good. Harden is awesome but they've made a lot of haste contract signings. Lin and asik are role players, merely solid guys making star salaries

Parsons is interesting, he's talented, but he's not really a championship #3. More like a 4 or 5th option

Their 2nd best talent can't even get on an airplane.

They are an interesting group no doubt but not anywhere near the level of okc or golden state in terms of young team powers
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby Rooscooter on Wed May 08, 2013 3:05 pm

abeer3 wrote:i just see a lot of "grass is greener" stuff in this thread, so i'm trying to balance it out.

i don't think dwight's a lock to stay, but i wholeheartedly disagree that the logical choice would be to leave. in sum: houston's not that good.


I understand what you're saying, but it would seem that LA has been the same place with a better centerpiece for a while now and that didn't have them lining up at the door. Is LA the best franchise?.... it has been but the reason for that is in the ground unfortunately and the current leadership seems to be far less likely to continue that leadership style or have the same success. Trust me, I hope it all happens as you lay it out but larger issues seem to be conspiring against us.

As a counter point to wanting to play with Howard I'd offer how he's treated his teammates in the past and where he seems to always be laying the blame when his teams underperform. Granted he has been right partially, but being second banana to a second banana isn't that enticing to the top talent out there IMO. Howard is a lot of things and almost all of them good, but Center's don't matter like they used to and he isn't the kind that can finish games and carry the load offensively. Building around him is different than building with him.

Finally, I think this is mostly a moot argument. I still think he's likely to stay..... he'll use his leverage to get changes and then sign after scaring the crap out of most of the people here...... :man10:
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby abeer3 on Wed May 08, 2013 5:05 pm

I get you. I seem like a sunshine-pumper here, but I'm not trying to say the lakers are in a great position right now. I just think they're in an equal or better position relative to most teams, including houston. I don't see the growth potential on that roster that others see.

and I think a center like howard still has a lot of value, mostly because he can both defend the post and the pick and roll. on offense, he's best as a pick and roll finisher or clean up guy, but he fancies himself a low post option (btw, he's very good on the face up in the low post) when he's really not great there.
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby C0TT0NCANDY on Thu May 09, 2013 11:24 am

If Howard decides not to resign who are we to question his decision? he has reasons to leave..... he has a bad coach right now... the roster is a mess..... no true wing-player... no consistent shooters... and a 40 year old PG who is most likley 1 tiny injury away from retiring.... yeah.... it's called common-sense.
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby karacha on Thu May 09, 2013 11:39 am

C0TT0NCANDY wrote:If Howard decides not to resign who are we to question his decision? he has reasons to leave..... he has a bad coach right now... the roster is a mess..... no true wing-player... no consistent shooters... and a 40 year old PG who is most likley 1 tiny injury away from retiring.... yeah.... it's called common-sense.


No one is questioning his decision. Decision that he did not even make. Can you please stop posting the same stuff over and over again? Thank you.
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby Balance&Options24 on Thu May 09, 2013 12:14 pm

If Dwight leaves, Vlade Divac would continue to be the best Lakers center to wear #12



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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby karacha on Thu May 09, 2013 12:35 pm

Having young Vlade would not be so bad right now. In his best season for us he had

16/10/4, shooting over 50%. I think his FT shooting was close to 80%. :man10:
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby lakerfan2 on Thu May 09, 2013 12:46 pm

#OURHOUSE
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby lakerfan2 on Thu May 09, 2013 12:48 pm

karacha wrote:Having young Vlade would not be so bad right now. In his best season for us he had

16/10/4, shooting over 50%. I think his FT shooting was close to 80%. :man10:


Didn't we get to the Finals with Vlade, and then Magic had to retire, Worthy was injured etc...?

He was the real deal playing with Yugoslavia.
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby karacha on Thu May 09, 2013 2:09 pm

We're way off-topic now, but yeah -- that Yugo national team with Divac, Kukoc, Drazen Petrovic and Radja rocked.
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby abeer3 on Thu May 09, 2013 2:32 pm

C0TT0NCANDY wrote:If Howard decides not to resign who are we to question his decision? he has reasons to leave..... he has a bad coach right now... the roster is a mess..... no true wing-player... no consistent shooters... and a 40 year old PG who is most likley 1 tiny injury away from retiring.... yeah.... it's called common-sense.


lol, I can't take this seriously anymore.
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Thu May 09, 2013 2:36 pm

C0TT0NCANDY wrote:.... yeah.... it's called common-sense.


I do not think that means what you think it means
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby Doc Brown on Thu May 09, 2013 2:46 pm

puffyusaf#2 wrote:
C0TT0NCANDY wrote:.... yeah.... it's called common-sense.


I do not think that means what you think it means


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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby C0TT0NCANDY on Thu May 09, 2013 3:10 pm

he is credible on CF according to most members there

-link removed

Just got off a call:

Dwight is not happy with how the Lakers have treated him and how the Lakers have constantly backed D'Antoni.

The Rockets have been doing a hell of a job to get him here. Harden has been calling/texting. During all star he spent a lot of time with Hakeem and Hakeem did the BEST sales pitch ever. He got him with McHale and they hit it off.

Dwight doesn't see a big deal in the extra year with the Lakers and states that everyone opts out of that 5th year anyways, so it wouldn't make that big of a difference.

Dwights agent DOES NOT want him to come to Houston and feel the Rockets management can not make a championship team.

Dwight mentioned that in LA there is a "millionaire tax" which Houston does not (I have never heard of this or have any idea)

Dwight and Fegan STILL want to be in Brooklyn but don't see that happening.

Atlantas only way to get Dwight would be to sign Paul as well, they are the team that can sign to max players I was told (didnt check this out). Atlanta also has power because Dwight just recently reconnected with his father and his father is out in Atlanta.


I stand corrected, that MDA is gonna be the down-fall of this team/franchise
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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby Battle Tested20 on Thu May 09, 2013 3:23 pm

o so now we're going off of a Rockets "insider" fan :man3:


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Re: D12 Thread: Brushin' his shoulders off (Won't need surgery)

Postby Doc Brown on Thu May 09, 2013 3:33 pm

Alright I'm going to make a statement about Dwight and what he is going to do this offseason. Everyone comment and say I'm legit with more sources than Chris Broussard on 6 o'clock Sportscenter and Cotton can go back to his mothership and send the word that a Lakers "insider" has conflicting reports.
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