D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby therealdeal on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:17 pm

Rooscooter wrote:Down by 4 with under a minute left....... you throw it in to Howard or Pau..... or more to the point.... you painfully watch two free trows clank off the rim, along with the chances for a comeback or you go with Pau.......
I never said he'd be depended on to close games.

If we're talking about who takes the last shot, it's Kobe anyway. Why have to choose between those two? Pau is obviously going to get his touches.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:25 pm

lakerfan2 wrote:
last stand wrote:Lol at sub par skills. Really? How much 2010 Dwight Howard did u watch


A lot actually. The Center position is my favorite position and one I put most scrutiny on as they are the main part of the team.

Howard has TWO moves.

1. Lower his shoulder, and try a running hook shot.

2. Spin move to the basket and dunk.

Other than that, it's lobs, putbacks, and some move to get a dunk.

Where's the footwork? Where's the interior passing? Where's the left hand?

Bynum isn't a master of those skills, but he does have them to go to. His footwork for his size is great (thanks to Kareem), and takes his time in the post to methodically decide what to do. With Kobe and Pau as main options, it's hard for Bynum to get a real chance to showcase it. He was flourishing in the playoffs at the chances he had when Pau was struggling, but they kept going away from him for no good reason.


I too watch the Center position more than any other. You are spot on with your evaluation as far as I can see.

Howard relies on his athleticism more than he should. At this point in his career you would have thought that he would have added at least some typical, fundamental post moves.

Bynum's footwork is very good and the best for any big in the game not named Duncan IMO.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby last stand on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:25 pm

I don't know why you assumed that was directed towards you. Also I applaud Lebron for leading that cavs team to the finals. That was one of the greatest postseasons of the last decade just like I applaud Dwight for taking a mediocre starting lineup to the finals.

Dwight Howard was the best player in the NBA in 2010-2011. He was the only player to effect the game in eery facet. He was a dominant scorer, an elite defender, and an elite rebounder. He is 2 to 3 notches above Bynum. Bynum is a solid post defender but his movement is lacking, his offensive game is me first right now and he faces no double teams. That's on top of the injury threat

And please don't preach anyone can get injured anytime because the facts are Bynum has been injured and injured frequently. He landed grabbing his knee multiple times last season. He ha 2 instances of saying if not for his knee brace he would have suffered season ending injuries. Bynums arguably a big of an injury risk as there is in the league. So with a guy like Williams, Howard, Lebron injuries are not a concern. Guys like Bynum, t-Mac, and Chris Paul are legitimate injury risks
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Bilbao-LakerMagic on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:26 pm

Wow, I suppose that if you are able to join Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard and Chris Paul or Deron Williams in the same team... you are a contender for years.

Some people talk about the lack of size but...

Between current Lakers:
Andrew Bynum
Pau Gasol/Lamar Odom/Derrick Caracter
Ron Artest/Devin Ebanks
Kobe Bryant/Shannon Brown?
Derek Fisher/Steve Blake

I think that it is a good Team.

And the proposed Lakers:
Dwight Howard
Lamar Odom/Derrick Caracter
Devin Ebanks & Other
Kobe Bryant
Chris Paul or Deron Williams

I think that it is an awesome Team.

I would dream with the second one. Anyway, Pau Gasol and Dwight Howard together is great too.

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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby last stand on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:30 pm

lakerfan2 wrote:
last stand wrote:Lol at sub par skills. Really? How much 2010 Dwight Howard did u watch


A lot actually. The Center position is my favorite position and one I put most scrutiny on as they are the main part of the team.

Howard has TWO moves.

1. Lower his shoulder, and try a running hook shot.

2. Spin move to the basket and dunk.

Other than that, it's lobs, putbacks, and some move to get a dunk.

Where's the footwork? Where's the interior passing? Where's the left hand

Bynum isn't a master of those skills, but he does have them to go to. His footwork for his size is great (thanks to Kareem), and takes his time in the post to methodically decide what to do. With Kobe and Pau as main options, it's hard for Bynum to get a real chance to showcase it. He was flourishing in the playoffs at the chances he had when Pau was struggling, but they kept going away from him for no good reason.


You forgot the little turnaround hook he has. It's not mastered but he pulls it out
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:32 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:Down by 4 with under a minute left....... you throw it in to Howard or Pau..... or more to the point.... you painfully watch two free trows clank off the rim, along with the chances for a comeback or you go with Pau.......
I never said he'd be depended on to close games.

If we're talking about who takes the last shot, it's Kobe anyway. Why have to choose between those two? Pau is obviously going to get his touches.


Maybe we don't see eye to eye on "options".... I'm not talking about who will have the second highest scoring average, rather who will make the clutch basket when needed other than Kobe.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby therealdeal on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:35 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:Down by 4 with under a minute left....... you throw it in to Howard or Pau..... or more to the point.... you painfully watch two free trows clank off the rim, along with the chances for a comeback or you go with Pau.......
I never said he'd be depended on to close games.

If we're talking about who takes the last shot, it's Kobe anyway. Why have to choose between those two? Pau is obviously going to get his touches.


Maybe we don't see eye to eye on "options".... I'm not talking about who will have the second highest scoring average, rather who will make the clutch basket when needed other than Kobe.


Pau. I would rather he have the ball because he's obviously a more refined scorer and a far better passer. If they don't bring a double, he can score on 90% of the league. If they bring a double, throw it anywhere near the rim and Howard will take care of it.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby lakerfan2 on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:38 pm

last stand wrote:I don't know why you assumed that was directed towards you. Also I applaud Lebron for leading that cavs team to the finals. That was one of the greatest postseasons of the last decade just like I applaud Dwight for taking a mediocre starting lineup to the finals.

Dwight Howard was the best player in the NBA in 2010-2011. He was the only player to effect the game in eery facet. He was a dominant scorer, an elite defender, and an elite rebounder. He is 2 to 3 notches above Bynum. Bynum is a solid post defender but his movement is lacking, his offensive game is me first right now and he faces no double teams. That's on top of the injury threat

And please don't preach anyone can get injured anytime because the facts are Bynum has been injured and injured frequently. He landed grabbing his knee multiple times last season. He ha 2 instances of saying if not for his knee brace he would have suffered season ending injuries. Bynums arguably a big of an injury risk as there is in the league. So with a guy like Williams, Howard, Lebron injuries are not a concern. Guys like Bynum, t-Mac, and Chris Paul are legitimate injury risks


I wouldn't have called Bynum injury prone prior to the two freak injuries before. And that was not because of how he was built. The fact that he had surgery on both knees has now put him into that category. The braces, are part of it.

I don't know if you've watched Bynum, but he gets double teamed almost every time he gets the ball. Hence why many complained why Andrew sometimes fumbles or rushes his decisions in the post. But that's also another story with a team who likened to standing around and watching instead of cutting and moving off the ball, but we can leave Basketball 101 out of this.

More and more teams are getting wind of his presence, and the usual NBA commentators have commended Bynum for his excellent low post ability for a center (vs. today's crop of centers). You also underrate Andrew's defensive presence. When Andrew's out, the Laker defense is horrendous. There is no presence at all. He is our anchor, and a damn good one. Changing shots, using his length to affect pick and rolls. He's slow on his feet vs Howard, I'll give him that, but he needs help from his team, to communicate. Hence his comments about "trust" issues about rotations and communication on defense, again...Basketball 101..etc, etc.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:39 pm

last stand wrote:
And please don't preach anyone can get injured anytime because the facts are Bynum has been injured and injured frequently. He landed grabbing his knee multiple times last season. He ha 2 instances of saying if not for his knee brace he would have suffered season ending injuries. Bynums arguably a big of an injury risk as there is in the league. So with a guy like Williams, Howard, Lebron injuries are not a concern. Guys like Bynum, t-Mac, and Chris Paul are legitimate injury risks


Preach!?...... :man10:

Biz Z was hurt worse than Bynum in his first few years and missed more games in fact. He went the next 10 without any significant injuries. Magic and Worthy both had bad knee injuries that didn't return. Amare had some issues early on as well that put a lot of doubt in his ability to stay injury free. What about Blake Griffin? He's played less than 50% of his potential games so far..... is he a serious injury risk with his style of play?

What we don't know is what we don't know. Just because he was hurt in the past doesn't mean he will get hurt again. Does he have a higher risk? Yea, but to say that a bad injury only happens to someone that has been injured before isn't reality either.....
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby last stand on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:49 pm

He also suffered a serious knee injury in high school. Gary vitti said himself his anatomy makes himmore prone to injury
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Kobe Bryant 8 on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:51 pm

I'm sorry, but anyone who can't see that Andrew will be injury prone his entire career is blind. I literally cringe every time he jumps. How many scares do we have a season? Too many for someone we want to potentially build a team around in the future.

Dwight Howard might be the best player in the NBA right now. You can make that argument and have a LEGIT case. He's a young, powerful big who's a defensive monster. If you can land that and put him with Kobe and Gasol, you do it. You don't hesitate. You still contend and you set yourself up for the future.

Dwight in LA? That will attract free agents for a decade, and it will prolong Kobe's career.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby last stand on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:52 pm

lakerfan2 wrote:
last stand wrote:I don't know why you assumed that was directed towards you. Also I applaud Lebron for leading that cavs team to the finals. That was one of the greatest postseasons of the last decade just like I applaud Dwight for taking a mediocre starting lineup to the finals.

Dwight Howard was the best player in the NBA in 2010-2011. He was the only player to effect the game in eery facet. He was a dominant scorer, an elite defender, and an elite rebounder. He is 2 to 3 notches above Bynum. Bynum is a solid post defender but his movement is lacking, his offensive game is me first right now and he faces no double teams. That's on top of the injury threat

And please don't preach anyone can get injured anytime because the facts are Bynum has been injured and injured frequently. He landed grabbing his knee multiple times last season. He ha 2 instances of saying if not for his knee brace he would have suffered season ending injuries. Bynums arguably a big of an injury risk as there is in the league. So with a guy like Williams, Howard, Lebron injuries are not a concern. Guys like Bynum, t-Mac, and Chris Paul are legitimate injury risks


I wouldn't have called Bynum injury prone prior to the two freak injuries before. And that was not because of how he was built. The fact that he had surgery on both knees has now put him into that category. The braces, are part of it.

I don't know if you've watched Bynum, but he gets double teamed almost every time he gets the ball. Hence why many complained why Andrew sometimes fumbles or rushes his decisions in the post. But that's also another story with a team who likened to standing around and watching instead of cutting and moving off the ball, but we can leave Basketball 101 out of this.

More and more teams are getting wind of his presence, and the usual NBA commentators have commended Bynum for his excellent low post ability for a center (vs. today's crop of centers). You also underrate Andrew's defensive presence. When Andrew's out, the Laker defense is horrendous. There is no presence at all. He is our anchor, and a damn good one. Changing shots, using his length to affect pick and rolls. He's slow on his feet vs Howard, I'll give him that, but he needs help from his team, to communicate. Hence his comments about "trust" issues about rotations and communication on defense, again...Basketball 101..etc, etc.


I never said he was a poor defender. I said he's slow on rotation. I am a Bynum fan. But Howard is better. On both ends of the court and it's really not debatable
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby last stand on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:53 pm

Kobe Bryant 8 wrote:I'm sorry, but anyone who can't see that Andrew will be injury prone his entire career is blind. I literally cringe every time he jumps. How many scares do we have a season? Too many for someone we want to potentially build a team around in the future.

Dwight Howard might be the best player in the NBA right now. You can make that argument and have a LEGIT case. He's a young, powerful big who's a defensive monster. If you can land that and put him with Kobe and Gasol, you do it. You don't hesitate. You still contend and you set yourself up for the future.

Dwight in LA? That will attract free agents for a decade, and it will prolong Kobe's career.


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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby therealdeal on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:59 pm

last stand wrote:
I never said he was a poor defender. I said he's slow on rotation. I am a Bynum fan. But Howard is better. On both ends of the court and it's really not debatable

Actually it is very debatable that Howard is better offensively. Bynum has possibly the best post game as a Center in the game. He's got fantastic footwork and a great touch around the basket.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby last stand on Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:06 pm

therealdeal wrote:
last stand wrote:
I never said he was a poor defender. I said he's slow on rotation. I am a Bynum fan. But Howard is better. On both ends of the court and it's really not debatable

Actually it is very debatable that Howard is better offensively. Bynum has possibly the best post game as a Center in the game. He's got fantastic footwork and a great touch around the basket.


Yes Bynum has a slightly better skillset. But who's more effective Howard shot 59% to bynums 57% while having more shots and touches.

Meaning despite having more chances to miss shots especially with more defensive attention he still shot a better percentage
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby lakerfan2 on Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:26 pm

last stand wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
last stand wrote:
I never said he was a poor defender. I said he's slow on rotation. I am a Bynum fan. But Howard is better. On both ends of the court and it's really not debatable

Actually it is very debatable that Howard is better offensively. Bynum has possibly the best post game as a Center in the game. He's got fantastic footwork and a great touch around the basket.


Yes Bynum has a slightly better skillset. But who's more effective Howard shot 59% to bynums 57% while having more shots and touches.

Meaning despite having more chances to miss shots especially with more defensive attention he still shot a better percentage


and take into account how many of that 59% were actually dunks/lobs/putbacks, vs bynum who actually added a mini jumper along with his post game which consists of hooks and creating a shot with footwork.

don't get me wrong either, i'd take dwight in a heartbeat too. i'm just stating that bynum quite often underrated for his progression, youth, and probably the biggest player in the game now with Yao retired.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby last stand on Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:47 pm

lakerfan2 wrote:
last stand wrote:
therealdeal wrote:Actually it is very debatable that Howard is better offensively. Bynum has possibly the best post game as a Center in the game. He's got fantastic footwork and a great touch around the basket.


Yes Bynum has a slightly better skillset. But who's more effective Howard shot 59% to bynums 57% while having more shots and touches.

Meaning despite having more chances to miss shots especially with more defensive attention he still shot a better percentage


and take into account how many of that 59% were actually dunks/lobs/putbacks, vs bynum who actually added a mini jumper along with his post game which consists of hooks and creating a shot with footwork.

don't get me wrong either, i'd take dwight in a heartbeat too. i'm just stating that bynum quite often underrated for his progression, youth, and probably the biggest player in the game now with Yao retired.


yes but whats wrong with dunks, lobs, and putbacks. they are 2 points just like a hook shot is 2 points. dwight has had below average to average perimeter players his entire career. imagine the openings he'll get from having kobe bryant on his team.

not to mention kobe is arguably the greatest big man compliment in the history of the game

i do think bynum is underrated and plays howard fairly well in head to head. i think bynum is a really good center and would be perfectly fine going into the season with him still here.

but between howard and drew. give me howard.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby therealdeal on Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:14 pm

^ Then we're on the same page, so why are we all arguing? :man10:
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby last stand on Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:21 pm

because there is no news?
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby therealdeal on Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:24 pm

Good call.

To be honest, the Lakers have the talent right now to make a serious run at the title as is. I think there obviously needs to be a couple of additions just to shore up depth, but as is the team is still a great team.

I can't see this season going by however without some sort of shakeup. Even if just because in two years Buss is going to be paying through the nose, some changes need to be made now to make this team better and get closer to a manageable budget.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Doc Brown on Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:25 pm

You can argue Howard vs. Bynum all you want, but the only stat that matters is games played and injuries.

Let's just Howard and Bynum are equal. Both have qualities better than the other and both are the top centers in the NBA. Who do you take?

The guy that plays 82 games a season or the guy that has 10 scares a season and misses at least 25 games a season due to injury? I want the guy that is healthy above all else. We get marginally better at the center position, but in return we spare Pau playing big center minutes and spare Kobe from having to shoulder most of the load when Bynum is out.

I love Odom and he is my favorite Laker, but he plays such a big role because Bynum is out or cant play big minutes. Howard plays 36 minutes a game to Bynum's 24. Howard picks up one full quarter of basketball. Pau plays less center minutes and logs more minutes at the PF spot. If the trade goes down can Hedo or Bass or Andersen play a solid 15-18 minutes a game off the bench for us? I think they can and if we can get a solid veteran Center for the minimum , those players mentioned can definitely contribute in the minutes they would get at the PF spot.

Howard / Andersen for Bynum / Odom looks like a bad trade on paper, but it will pay dividends for the long term of the Lakers and Kobe/Pau's careers.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:26 pm

Kobe Bryant 8 wrote:I'm sorry, but anyone who can't see that Andrew will be injury prone his entire career is blind. I literally cringe every time he jumps. How many scares do we have a season? Too many for someone we want to potentially build a team around in the future.

Dwight Howard might be the best player in the NBA right now. You can make that argument and have a LEGIT case. He's a young, powerful big who's a defensive monster. If you can land that and put him with Kobe and Gasol, you do it. You don't hesitate. You still contend and you set yourself up for the future.

Dwight in LA? That will attract free agents for a decade, and it will prolong Kobe's career.


Dwight the best player!!?..... maybe in a fantasy league or in a video game. 6th to 8th I think would be fair IMO.

The best player in the NBA doesn't have as many holes in his game as Howard does. What he is good at he is the best (defense, power moves and rebounding). What he isn't good at he really isn't good at: going left, shooting anything other than that god awful hook and dunking, free throw shooting, fouling and leading.

If Dwight was here with Kobe and Pau we can ATTRACT all the free agents we want..... signing them is another story with the new CBA......

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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby last stand on Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:55 pm

no the best players in the NBA are the most effective players. Lebron has holes all over his game yet he's top 2 if not the best.

its about production. not skillset. if it was about skillset then zach randolph and lamar odom would be elite top 10 players. especially randolph who has almost no holes in his game.

23ppg 14rpg 3bpg is best player in the league discussion. end of discussion
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Lakerjones on Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:04 pm

Rooscooter, I had to miss most of the last 2 pages of conversation, but to me the biggest reason I would be willing to include Bynum and Odom in a trade for Dwight comes mainly from a pragmatic point. We'll have to agree to disagree about Howard not being a superstar player in terms of his game. I don't buy for one second that he is only a marketing type player. The guy is marketable because of his game first and foremost, and secondly his personality, charisma and athleticism. His numbers are pretty staggering, particularly the rebounding which I think would be very important for this team. Also his defense is phenomenal. He is so quick and agile for a big man - he's imposing in that regard despite the fact that some centers have height on him. He is still so strong and moves so quickly as to leave most bigger guys behind.

I do absolutely agree that I love Bynum's offensive game much more than Dwight. I've even gone on record here as saying I thought Dwight's O kind of sucks. He's certainly improved a lot last year which gave me some glimmer of hope. But he's still got plenty of faults on that end. He has no touch, he can't sink a free throw and his post game more suspect than it should be.

But his power, strength and quickness make him such a tough match up. I definitely think he's a top 5 player in the league.

Back to my statement at the top, the main thing for me is pragmatics. Howard has been an Iron Man. He's a beast and he's really never sustained injury. Bynum has sadly had ENORMOUS injury issues. He still hasn't played a full season as a starter in fact. His knees worry the heck out of me, even though he might be fine.

To me it basically comes down to potential versus hard fact reality. Bynum has monstrous upside, no doubt. And I would not ever give him up for a PG personally. But he hasn't gotten over that hump due to injury/development/role yet. He's a 15 and 8 player right now. Dwight is a 23 and 14 player and dominant defensive presence who goes 36-38 minutes strong for whole seasons. Bynum has not proven to be that guy. I don't know and I have my worries about counting on him to become that. I've seen great stretches from Bynum both defensively and offensively but not the consistency and not AT ALL the consistency with health - that part is indisputably in Howard's favor.

Odom to me has always been a potential guy as well. IMO he still has not lived up to it in fact. I've defended him in the past, but he disappointed me greatly by not showing up in the playoffs last year. As I mentioned, to me one of his biggest roles is as Bynum insurance but when Bynum went down, Pau didn't show that he could really hold up as a Center last year, so that role has less value to me than in getting a Center who can play 38 minutes a game.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:25 pm

^I don't think we disagree other than I don't think Howard is a leader or that he will magically grow into a fundamental player. He isn't Hakeem.

My first and major point has been all along has been if you give up Odom as well you are left with a big 3 and less around them than Miami has and a new CBA that will make it almost impossible to get anyone other than vets on the way out or draft choices while Kobe is in the late years of his prime. Howard, Kobe and Pau isn't going to win a championship IMO. Not with our supporting cast.

I have never said that Bynum is better than Howard, in fact the opposite. I just don't think the gap is that big and a good, healthy season from Bynum will go a long way to proving that IMO.

Your minute argument is predicated on the supposition that Bynum's minutes were limited by his abilities, injuries or conditioning. Phil loved vets and he wasn't the biggest fan of Bynum either. He rarely if ever varied from his rotation for anyone much less Bynum. I would love to see Andrew get a chance to play 34 min/game and see what he can do with a real point guard.

It remains to be seen if Howard can be as effective as a second or third option as well. Will he work as hard when he goes 5 or 6 possessions without a touch. Andrew has gone entire quarters without a post touch with our guys..... I wonder how Howard would react to that....
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