D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby karacha on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:49 am

Let's not talk about Bynum. He's done as a Laker. We don't know if he will ever fully recover from his injuries (let's hope he can). This is a Dwight thread, so back on topic.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby KBJelleyBean24 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:57 am

Whatever the case may be, thinking about this clearly, we need Dwight. Players of his caliber are hard to come by, and when we begin to rebuild in a year, we won't have anybody to build around. Who is going to want to go to a team with nobody on it? It's the same problem facing Dallas right now (albeit Dallas isn't as big of a market as LA) where they go after big name players only to get snubbed at the last minute, with Dwight at least we have an attractive player in an attractive market where other players would want to go. tl;dr: Coaches like D'Antoni are a dime a dozen in this league, players like Dwight are not, time to cut our losses and end the D'Antoni experiment.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby Psychobroker on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:05 pm

phoenixrisingla wrote:
Psychobroker wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:
Psychobroker wrote:
So I take it you missed his 2 previous "phenominal" comebacks from much more serious knee injuries? You know, how he went on to earn his first trip to the ASG last year?

Posts like yours truly make me think so many of you Bynum haters never watched him play, or only started paying attention last year.


I think that the people who watched his entire career are the ones that hate him the most.

You said it perfectly, his FIRST ASG. Should be his 4th-5th. Easily.

You can say how great he COULD be IF he was healthy more often or IF he was more mature, but those are just guesses.

He is what he is.


So it's Bynum's fault that he suffered serious injuries (by his teammates), and when he was healthy, was underused in the post (3rd option even though >55% FG) until last year, but it's NOT Dwight's fault that HE's hurt (again), receives the 2nd most touches among centers in the league but complains about shots AND can't hit better than 50% from the FT line?

Double-standard much?

Of course, it's NEITHER of their fault for getting hurt, but you're criticism of Bynum is tied to his ASG appearances (or lack thereof), when injuries and coaching decisions are/were out of his control? Would Dwight Howard have earned more trips to the ASG under the same conditions (injuries, 3rd option, etc)? No, I doubt it.

Bynum showed great heart and perseverance overcoming the injuries, Kobe's summer 2007 rant, the huge microscope he was under, etc. Dwight has always wilted - going into passive/aggressive mode - his entire career.


Hey Psycho, you make some good points.

But again, I really feel like you're focusing on the what if's. I'm not saying that the injuries were Bynum's fault (the attitude certainly was), but at the end of the day he's either producing or not.

If he's only playing at 100% for a third (or less) of his career, I could care less who is at fault. We just need results.

Does that make any sense?


Of course, but there's no denying we were much better last year on defense than this year, including in the paint. Bynum's sheer size had tons to do with that.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby Psychobroker on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:06 pm

khmrP wrote:^^^ well rev, even with our disagreement bout these 2 bigs, one thing is for sure, the brakedown all starts from the perimiter players, they put our bigs in seriously bad spots because once the big helps NO ONE helps them. Even though that funneling D wasn't the greatest D ever, it least had its moments but I would sincerely doubt Antoni is very bright in that dept. Like in 06 when Kobe/Kwame/Odom destroyed Pho interior D.


I agree with this, and it's surprising that Nash is even worse than Fisher... much worse.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby Ludachris on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:11 pm

revgen wrote:^D12's man 2 man defense on the perimeter is even worse than Bynum's. Bynum didn't have a lot of lateral speed, but he at least knew how to bend his knees and get himself into a defensive stance when he did guard perimeter bigs. D12 is pretty much straight-legged when he guards perimeter bigs. They just blow by him.

Here's what I'm seeing on defense - when Howard is in the game, he is defending his man and helping out with the man that our PF is defending, whether it be Gasol or Clark - or one of the other opponents driving to the hoop. When he slides over to help out with the guy who is getting burned, both defenders are focused on that one guy and the guy who is trailing is no longer in the play and doesn't adjust to defend someone else. That leaves Howard's guy open for the offensive rebound or to receive the pass. The same thing is happening with Kobe and the PG position. We have two or three guys trying to defend two positions half the time to make up for the poor defense of those other two guys - it ends up killing them multiple ways. Artest is doing really well on-ball, but once he gets picked, it's the same scenario. At least he is making up for it with the steals to some extent - anyone else see how Artest is not very friendly with teammates lately (on the court)? His demeanor has changed quite a bit this season.

I still think Howard is being unfairly criticized for the lack of defense on the part of others. He just shouldn't be pointing the fingers about it publicly. Management is seeing the same thing we all are seeing. He is doing his job (most of the time) and just needs to keep doing it and stay quiet. It should get better next year and much better the year after.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby Helljumper on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:14 pm

karacha wrote:Let's not talk about Bynum. He's done as a Laker. We don't know if he will ever fully recover from his injuries (let's hope he can). This is a Dwight thread, so back on topic.


Come on, they were traded for each other, just because Drew's not a Laker anymore doesn't mean he's completely irrelevant to discussing Dwight. Using this logic, we should also put a hold on all conversations about Phil Jackson in Lakers discussion.

Give me last year's Bynum over whatever the hell Dwight's doing right now any day. Dwight is not in Bynum's league offensively, defensively he hasn't been the savior we expected, and he makes Bynum look mature. Bynum shot a three, laughed on the bench, and had inconsistent effort. Dwight's done all this AND complained about Kobe behind his back, deflected blame for poor play by complaining about touches, and cost us games with 2 stupid ejections.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby karacha on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:18 pm

We discussed this in the past. Many times. It is redundant. We're not getting Bynum back. You want to discuss Bynum? Great. There's a NBA discussion thread, feel free to contribute there.

http://www.clublakers.com/nba-discussion/andrew-bynum-discussion-bowling-for-dollars-t106391.html
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby Ludachris on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:45 pm

Helljumper wrote:
karacha wrote:Let's not talk about Bynum. He's done as a Laker. We don't know if he will ever fully recover from his injuries (let's hope he can). This is a Dwight thread, so back on topic.


Come on, they were traded for each other, just because Drew's not a Laker anymore doesn't mean he's completely irrelevant to discussing Dwight. Using this logic, we should also put a hold on all conversations about Phil Jackson in Lakers discussion.

Give me last year's Bynum over whatever the hell Dwight's doing right now any day. Dwight is not in Bynum's league offensively, defensively he hasn't been the savior we expected, and he makes Bynum look mature. Bynum shot a three, laughed on the bench, and had inconsistent effort. Dwight's done all this AND complained about Kobe behind his back, deflected blame for poor play by complaining about touches, and cost us games with 2 stupid ejections.

I'd take last year's Howard (pre back injury) over this year's Howard. That would be better than this year's Bynum, this year's Howard, and comparable to or better than last year's Bynum. I mean hey, if we're talking hypothetical, why limit the comparison to just this year's Howard and last year's Bynum?

Sorry Mods, I'll stop feeding the fire too.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby KB24 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:18 pm

phoenixrisingla wrote:Heard on Colin Cowherd this morning that Dwight has the 2nd most touches of any center in the NBA.

I'm trying to find that info, as I'm sure that if they count defensive rebounds that may have something to do with it.

Still, a pretty damning stat based on popular opinion among Howard supporters.

when you are the best center by a landslide...having the 2nd most touches is an insult. Basketball at the end of the day is an inside-out game and there is no reason why we don't post up. Touches alone aren't helpful.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby revgen on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:19 pm

KB24 wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:Heard on Colin Cowherd this morning that Dwight has the 2nd most touches of any center in the NBA.

I'm trying to find that info, as I'm sure that if they count defensive rebounds that may have something to do with it.

Still, a pretty damning stat based on popular opinion among Howard supporters.

when you are the best center by a landslide...having the 2nd most touches is an insult. Basketball at the end of the day is an inside-out game and there is no reason why we don't post up. Touches alone aren't helpful.


D12 is the 2nd option on this team. He's not going to get the most touches.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:31 pm

revgen wrote:
KB24 wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:Heard on Colin Cowherd this morning that Dwight has the 2nd most touches of any center in the NBA.

I'm trying to find that info, as I'm sure that if they count defensive rebounds that may have something to do with it.

Still, a pretty damning stat based on popular opinion among Howard supporters.

when you are the best center by a landslide...having the 2nd most touches is an insult. Basketball at the end of the day is an inside-out game and there is no reason why we don't post up. Touches alone aren't helpful.


D12 is the 2nd option on this team. He's not going to get the most touches.

Yeah I think there's exceptions to the rule. When you have the best Center in the game AND arguably one of the 5th best players of all time... I think the latter deserves more touches.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby phoenixrisingla on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:35 pm

therealdeal wrote:
revgen wrote:
KB24 wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:Heard on Colin Cowherd this morning that Dwight has the 2nd most touches of any center in the NBA.

I'm trying to find that info, as I'm sure that if they count defensive rebounds that may have something to do with it.

Still, a pretty damning stat based on popular opinion among Howard supporters.

when you are the best center by a landslide...having the 2nd most touches is an insult. Basketball at the end of the day is an inside-out game and there is no reason why we don't post up. Touches alone aren't helpful.


D12 is the 2nd option on this team. He's not going to get the most touches.

Yeah I think there's exceptions to the rule. When you have the best Center in the game AND arguably one of the 5th best players of all time... I think the latter deserves more touches.


1st most in the league, 2nd most in the league, WHATS THE DIFFERENCE??

The point is that he's getting plenty and not delivering.

To be fair though, I got lazy and didnt look up the actual stat. If defensive rebounds are counted (as they normally are in touch counts) then leading the lead in rebounds obviously skews this number and what we think it illustrates.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby phoenixrisingla on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:38 pm

KB24 wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:Heard on Colin Cowherd this morning that Dwight has the 2nd most touches of any center in the NBA.

I'm trying to find that info, as I'm sure that if they count defensive rebounds that may have something to do with it.

Still, a pretty damning stat based on popular opinion among Howard supporters.

when you are the best center by a landslide...having the 2nd most touches is an insult. Basketball at the end of the day is an inside-out game and there is no reason why we don't post up. Touches alone aren't helpful.


We dont post up effectively (in part) because Dwight is not a good post-up center. He's most effective when rolling to the rim off P&R's but he doesnt want to play like that.

Jeff Van Gundy was doing an interview yesterday and said that Dwight is a 9year league vet who has yet to advance past a rudimentary offensive skill set.

I cant really argue with him.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:40 pm

KB24 wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:Heard on Colin Cowherd this morning that Dwight has the 2nd most touches of any center in the NBA.

I'm trying to find that info, as I'm sure that if they count defensive rebounds that may have something to do with it.

Still, a pretty damning stat based on popular opinion among Howard supporters.

when you are the best center by a landslide...having the 2nd most touches is an insult. Basketball at the end of the day is an inside-out game and there is no reason why we don't post up. Touches alone aren't helpful.


So should LeBron get more shots?...... :man12:
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:42 pm

phoenixrisingla wrote:1st most in the league, 2nd most in the league, WHATS THE DIFFERENCE??

The point is that he's getting plenty and not delivering.

To be fair though, I got lazy and didnt look up the actual stat. If defensive rebounds are counted (as they normally are in touch counts) then leading the lead in rebounds obviously skews this number and what we think it illustrates.

I'm not saying he needs more :man10:

I'm saying that he's getting the right amount and yes he's not converting enough of them.

Leading the league in rebounding is always impressive, regardless of which type.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby GoldenKnight on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:45 pm

Why am I seeimg Bynums name here? Anyway, sources are saying Dwights concern with re-signing is D'Antoni still being here. Might have been done by Dwights camp which I am fine with if its the only way to get rid of D'Antoni. Given the ultimatum, the Lakers will have to act.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:50 pm

GoldenKnight wrote:Why am I seeimg Bynums name here? Anyway, sources are saying Dwights concern with re-signing is D'Antoni still being here. Might have been done by Dwights camp which I am fine with if its the only way to get rid of D'Antoni. Given the ultimatum, the Lakers will have to act.


If this is true the last thing the Lakers should do is change coaches...... and I don't like D'Antoni....

If you start a 5 year contract by completely capitulating to a player you will only get more of the same.... and deserve every bit of it IMO.... Especially when MDA has little to do with Howard's performances..... he's getting touches... he's the one that can't hold on to the ball or make a post move to save his life.... if it isn't a lob he doesn't seem to be able to contribute much in the set offense....

His problem is with the personnel around him.... he needs a narrow complement of players to open the lane for him. A speedy point guard and shooters.... none of which we have and MDA isn't in control of that.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby borri on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:56 pm

^^^

Screw that. If it's between Antoni or D12. Goodbye Antoni. If it's between Bynum and Antoni. Goodbye Antoni.

Good centers don't come around very often. When you have one. You keep them. The end of the true back to the basket big man era....don't buy it at all. Good big men don't grow on trees. When there's one available he gets taken #1. Witness, Bowie, Oden. And Bowie was in the era of the big man. To lesser degrees....Tskisivilli, Millicic.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:59 pm

borri wrote:^^^

Screw that. If it's between Antoni or D12. Goodbye Antoni. If it's between Bynum and Antoni. Goodbye Antoni.

Good centers don't come around very often. When you have one. You keep them. The end of the true back to the basket big man era....don't buy it at all. Good big men don't grow on trees. When there's one available he gets taken #1. Witness, Bowie, Oden. And Bowie was in the era of the big man. To lesser degrees....Tskisivilli, Millicic.


No.... Screw that^^^

WTH kind of discussion is this anyway?....
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby phoenixrisingla on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:01 pm

therealdeal wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:1st most in the league, 2nd most in the league, WHATS THE DIFFERENCE??

The point is that he's getting plenty and not delivering.

To be fair though, I got lazy and didnt look up the actual stat. If defensive rebounds are counted (as they normally are in touch counts) then leading the lead in rebounds obviously skews this number and what we think it illustrates.

I'm not saying he needs more :man10:

I'm saying that he's getting the right amount and yes he's not converting enough of them.

Leading the league in rebounding is always impressive, regardless of which type.


I know. I was agreeing with you... aggressively. :man10:

Sorry. :man10:
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby phoenixrisingla on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:02 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
borri wrote:^^^

Screw that. If it's between Antoni or D12. Goodbye Antoni. If it's between Bynum and Antoni. Goodbye Antoni.

Good centers don't come around very often. When you have one. You keep them. The end of the true back to the basket big man era....don't buy it at all. Good big men don't grow on trees. When there's one available he gets taken #1. Witness, Bowie, Oden. And Bowie was in the era of the big man. To lesser degrees....Tskisivilli, Millicic.


No.... Screw that^^^

WTH kind of discussion is this anyway?....


Yeah. Debating who should get who fired?

This year is rough. :man6:
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:03 pm

To be fair he made a good point.

Howards and Bynums are very rare. D'Antoni's aren't. I know what you're saying and if we were talking about Howard vs. Phil I'd pick Phil, but Howard vs. D'Antoni is easy for me.

And we should be firing D'Antoni this summer anyway... especially if we miss the playoffs. Two quotes (although they're paraphrased):

D'Antoni when he was hired and the team's expectations: "We expect to win. If we don't win, fire me because I'm doing something wrong."
Jerry Buss when asked if the team got a bonus for making the playoffs: "Bonus? If you don't make the playoffs, you don't work here anymore."
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:03 pm

phoenixrisingla wrote:
I know. I was agreeing with you... aggressively. :man10:

Sorry. :man10:

:man10:
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby GoldenKnight on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:04 pm

@RooScooter: on the contrary, I do believe it is D'Antonis fault that Dwight isn't getting the ball enough, he doesn't catch the ball where he wants it and we have no plays for him to do so because D'Antoni doesn't believe in post ups, he said it himself. When you have Dwight Howard on contract year you do whatever he wants because guess what? Once he leaves then you're really in the hole & the dude isn't even 100% so we will look even more foolish after this season when he regains his old form. We shouldn't be trying to adjust our roster to a coach, the coach should adjust to our roster, that is why D'Antoni was a terrible hire in the first place.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion:Apologizes,"it starts with me" 804

Postby borri on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:11 pm

Antoni offensive needs:

1. PnR PG....Check
2. PnR big man.....nope.
3. Shooters other than Nash....nope.
4. Speed and athleticism.....nope.

Why did we hire this guy?

PJ TRI needs:

1. PG who can shoot....Check.
2. SG who can score ala MJ....check.
3. Big man who can pass and shoot.....check.
4. Big man who can score in the post ala Shaq-Tri....check.

And we passed up on PJ?
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