D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby The Rock on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:59 pm

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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby Finwë on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:05 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Finwë wrote:LOL, I was just throwing names around, relax

And realdeal, I agree, I'm just asking that if the FO thought Howard was gonna walk and decided to trade him, what package would be acceptable? Then I just threw some names around, that's all.
If Howard wasn't planning to leave, then I wouldn't deal him unless I got a really great deal in place that fit the pieces we already have better.
It's true that the Batum-Aldridge deal would probably hurt our D though. Plus everyone would be a season older...

Different quesiton, even with Howard in the lineup, could a team that is starting Nash & Pau (one season older) be a good defensive team? And it's not like Kobe or MWP are playing elite perimeter D.
It just feels like we have too many weak links in our team for us to play consistent, tough, championship level D. Physically we can't really compete with teams like Miami or OKC or the Clippers, and system-wise we don't have a brilliant coach like Thibbs or Pop to coordinate our D and hide our individual weaknesses..
I think if Dwight wanted to walk you pull the Kevin Love deal and ask for Kevin Love and Pekovic. I'd give them whatever they wanted to make that work. If it takes Pau and Dwight then I ask for Love/Pekovic/Kirilenko/as many f***ing picks as I want. :man10:

Basically there's not a package out there that I'd be really all that interested in. I'm restarting the franchise in 2 years with or without Dwight. I want Dwight, but if he wants to leave then I'll hold the door open for him on the way out. If I can get a young star for Dwight in a sign and trade or something like that, I'll do that sure.

As for your second question, no a team with Pau and Artest in the starting lineup cannot win anything. We all vastly underestimated the decline of Gasol and we all really overrated the return of Artest. Yes he's much better than last season, but that doesn't mean he's great. He's a good role player at this point in his career.

Now if we somehow got our hands on a young athletic SF I think a starting lineup of Nash/Kobe/SF/Clark/healthy Howard could easily win a Championship.

Not bad. How about a 3 team trade between us, OKC and Indy? We get Ibaka and Paul George, Indy gets Dwight, and OKC gets Hibbert and MWP (and picks maybe).
Indy gets Dwight Howard. OKC has Durant playing the 4 more often now and a great backup 4 in Collison. They replace Perkins with Hibbert, and letting Ibaka go leaves them more room to improve the team in other positions.
We get a very good wing player with a lot of potential in George (who is a very good defender) & the best shot blocker in the league in Ibaka, who doesn't need to have plays called for him and will get you 16 pts off mid-range jumpers & dunks. It allows Pau to go in the post and play the 5.
Nash/Blake
Kobe/Meeks
George/Clark
Ibaka/Jamison
Pau/Hill

We get better offensively and defensively IMO. Ibaka almost compenstates Howard's absence defensively and George is a better and more athletic wind defender than MWP at this stage of his career.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:07 pm

I would bust a n** if that trade went down. In other words, it's not going to happen.

Indy is NOT giving up Hibbert or George.
OKC is NOT giving up Ibaka.

These teams are at the top of their respective conferences, and have no reason to want to trade key pieces involved in their success. Ibaka would be great though. Great.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby lakersin4 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:11 pm

I don't think this is a bad thing. Maybe Dwight will listen & start moving to get the ball. Would be huge for us if Dwight gets more engaged.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby The Rock on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:16 pm

Just to put things in perspective, Dwight is still drawing a lot of attention. HE found Clarke open for 3, we still need some shooters y'all


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no offense to Clarke and Jamison but they're like a band-aid type solution to the spacing problem. We need one more SG/SF type who can hit some 3s
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby Finwë on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:18 pm

Chillbongo wrote:I would bust a n** if that trade went down. In other words, it's not going to happen.

Indy is NOT giving up Hibbert or George.
OKC is NOT giving up Ibaka.

These teams are at the top of their respective conferences, and have no reason to want to trade key pieces involved in their success. Ibaka would be great though. Great.

Yeah but Indiana isn't beating Miami with Hibbert.. Healthy Howard is worlds better than Hibbert, I think they'd have a better chance.
A Howard-West-Granger trio would have to be very attractive to them. Can't forget about "star power" and selling tickets. And they even get better while they're at it. Maybe they want to keep George, we'll take Granger then.

I can see OKC not wanting to part with Ibaka. But they get some picks and cap relief which allows them to fill their roster in other positions, add shooters, ala Miami. They can get rid of Perkins and roll with a lineup of Westbrook-Martin-Sefolosha-Durant-Hibbert. Collison is a great role PF, and like I said they could improve their bench.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby The Rock on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:19 pm

https://twitter.com/LakersReporter/status/301062570192801792
Steve Nash would obviously love to run more pick & roll with Howard, but said both parties have to want to do it. He hopes it gets better.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby LTLakerFan on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:20 pm

The Rock wrote:Image


LMAO! That picture is perfect. What Nash knew was the only play he had....while Dwight is going, "no, I only do "those" up high where I want them". Spoon fed. He has no clue about touches vs the spoon feeding he needs because of his lack of fundamentals.

Hey props to LeBron .... he recognized the huge holes in his game and has worked hard on them. Almost same time in the league. Look how much just in past few years he has improved what he was weak on.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby Center Court on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:22 pm

It's funy, because as a Laker fan I have never been more confused. one day, I'm ripping Kobe for making comments about Dwight. The next, I think it's a matter of the team has tuned out MDA. Then it's day's like this where I am fully in disgust of Dwight.

It seems like this team is fully committed to MDA, running his style, and doing with energy and passion so they can at the very least make the playoffs and build upon it next year... also avoid a colossal shame. Everyone except Dwight. Watching that clip tells me everything I need to know about what the biggest issue is right now. And that is Mr. Howard. I'm not sure what goes on in his head, but it seems like he's mentally checked out. It seems like he's not playing for his team, only for himself.

I rewatched that clip and you have Nash adamantly yelling, Ron is twirling his fingers in a "move around motion". Heck, even the young throw in he claimed was his best friend is riding him.

I don't know what to make of this but I do know it's in his head. Maybe, Kobe is saying the stuff he needs to say because nothing else works. Maybe, it's a locker room full of people tired of him. Maybe everyone is tired of walking on egg shells to make him feel comfortable.

Right now, his lack of energy or passion seems to bog this team down and clearly that outweighs his 18/12
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:23 pm

The Rock wrote:Just to put things in perspective, Dwight is still drawing a lot of attention. HE found Clarke open for 3, we still need some shooters y'all


Image

no offense to Clarke and Jamison but they're like a band-aid type solution to the spacing problem. We need one more SG/SF type who can hit some 3s


I like that picture. On that possession, Earl actually hit the 3 and cut the lead to two at that point. If I'm not mistaken, when he actually had success in the 1st half, when he made that nice move on Bosh, he had a lot of room to operate. Same thing when he scored on Ray Allen, but I have to go back and watch that particular play again to be sure.

There's been instances during the season like this as well. You're right, though. We need another shooter in the rotation...
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby The Rock on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:23 pm

^ not really. Lebron's Jumper is still extremely shaky. All he does now is take shots in the paint or pass it out for 3 pointers, notice how many snipers Miami has on the roster
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby LTLakerFan on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:25 pm

lakersin4 wrote:I don't think this is a bad thing. Maybe Dwight will listen & start moving to get the ball. Would be huge for us if Dwight gets more engaged.


It's a hell of a lot safer too for his shoulder where more often if he has cut and gets it he can pick the angle and keep probably only 1 defender off his right shoulder with his body between. Versus his crap position for the fleeting moment he had it, where 2-3 guys are taking whacks at him during his predictable limited array of moves.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby Lakerman JSJ on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:25 pm

The Rock wrote:^ not really. Lebron's Jumper is still extremely shaky. All he does now is take shots in the paint or pass it out for 3 pointers, notice how many snipers Miami has on the roster


Not anymore.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:27 pm

^^^^That picture is nice, but it only works if Dwight hasn't been stripped or fouled yet.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby The Rock on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:27 pm

I think Nash and Kobe have recognized, Dwight needs to be pushed and yelled at to get this guy to play at optimum level. Look at how annoying SVG is he is constantly on his players, hes constantly yelling at Dwight too on the court & thats why he played well. Nash and Kobe had to be stern at Dwight through the media to get him to play in the Boston game & it somewhat worked.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby therealdeal on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:33 pm

revgen wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
revgen wrote:
therealdeal wrote:rev I'm not going to debate you on Bynum again.


You brought it up. Not me.

I brought up a dramatic Center. If you want to argue that Bynum wasn't a dramatic Center, that's your party not mine.

Bynum pouted on the floor a TON. Howard pouts on the floor a TON. The ends of their pouting are unimportant to the fact that both are/were prima donnas and both gave our team headaches with their drama.

I know Bynum is your boy, but that's the end of my argument. That's it. It's not an insult to Bynum, so no need to defend him.


First "you're not going to debate me" about Bynum." Now you are?

It's been an interesting morning.

I'm not debating, just stating what my original point was.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby The Rock on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:43 pm

Lakerman JSJ wrote:
The Rock wrote:^ not really. Lebron's Jumper is still extremely shaky. All he does now is take shots in the paint or pass it out for 3 pointers, notice how many snipers Miami has on the roster


Not anymore.



I would have to disagree on that. His shot selection has become incredible. Miami is basically exploiting D'Antoni's small ball, Lebron is too fast for most power forwards and hes too strong for small forwards he takes a HEAVY amount of his shots in the paint. His mid range game is still shaky. He basically draws fouls and blows by the big guys guarding him or just bullies by the smaller guys who are more mobile...if he draws the defense there is always a cutting Wade or sharpshooters like Battier, Chalmers, Mike Miller, Ray Allen waiting in the wings. Its extremely hard to defend

For the 2012/2013 season, 1st column shows mid range FG% for 4th & mid range FG% for totals in all 4Qs

This is Lebron's

Image


This is Kobe's

Image

This is Durant's

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Basically how Kobe has cut out the 3 point shooting since hes struggling with it, Lebron has cut down the mid range shots and outside jumpers

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/06/22/heat-shooters-knock-em-down/

James shot just 7-for-38 from outside the paint in The Finals
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby dak22 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:48 pm

So is it time to start making Howard "Garbage" sigs yet?
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby dwighthowardsdad on Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:00 pm

Chillbongo wrote:^^^^That picture is nice, but it only works if Dwight hasn't been stripped or fouled yet.


That happens a lot. You're absolutely right. Pre-surgery Dwight relied on athleticism so much so that he never really learned the fundamentals. So, we're watching the results of someone not learning fundamental basketball come back after surgery. That's why I love players like Duncan, Kobe, and Durant. They are so fun to watch and I believe not only increase their longevity in the game but more important their effectiveness even as the age and their body can't do certain things it once did.

WTS, in that particular picture the floor is spaced so if Dwight makes a move Miami will collapse, right? Well, when they do Dwight can look over the defense and make a decision in that particular instance it was Clark who shot a open 3 and drained it. More often then not, the defense will collapse. When they do, that's when he misses a lot of his athleticism because he's not getting the same lift on his shots or he's getting fouled and stripped as you pointed out.

Nevertheless, part of the reason he does get stripped is because of all the congestion in the paint, IMO. We don't have reliable shooting that can space the floor consistently; nobody besides Nash can be respected shooting from long range. I think Dwight's efficiency would go up if we had more floor balance, IMO.

I noticed two differences in Dwight since coming from Orlando to our team. One his health, secondly he had more space to operate in the paint, and he was a better screener in Orlando. All of those things added together with his bad attitude has effected his play and frustrated him because he hasn't adjusted to playing through injuries, yet.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby John3:16 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:14 pm

Does anyone in the NBA get stripped as often as Dwight? I seriously doubt it. Seems like it happens 3 - 4 times a game.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby revgen on Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:20 pm

^Hard to say. Most players don't play in the post. Compared to other postup players, D12 seems to be stripped more than others. Pau, Duncan, Bynum, Kobe, Melo, and others do a better job of protecting the ball.

Synergy may be able to provide some stats to give a good idea how he compares to the rest of the league.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:29 pm

dwighthowardsdad wrote:Nevertheless, part of the reason he does get stripped is because of all the congestion in the paint, IMO. We don't have reliable shooting that can space the floor consistently; nobody besides Nash can be respected shooting from long range. I think Dwight's efficiency would go up if we had more floor balance, IMO.

I noticed two differences in Dwight since coming from Orlando to our team. One his health, secondly he had more space to operate in the paint, and he was a better screener in Orlando. All of those things added together with his bad attitude has effected his play and frustrated him because he hasn't adjusted to playing through injuries, yet.

Definitely agree here. But the thing is, we do have the personnel -- Nash, Kobe, Clark, Jamison, Dwight. That spreads the floor nicely. Or Move Kobe to SF and play Meeks at the 2. Theoretically when Nash is out, Blake can spread the floor.

Part of it also is MDA not having the right line ups out there with Dwight. He gets confused b/w over-resting his starters and having the right personnel out there. It's like he ran Kobe for 40+ minutes a game for half the season, and is now trying to make up for it -- but at the worst times (crucial parts of MIA game) and with the worst lineups.

I think it's some spacing, MDA lineups, but the biggest is his effectiveness. Teams don't even think he can make a move to the basket so they just try to get really physical with him, which ends up in TO's or FT's. The times they don't collapse, he's 50/50 -- sometimes he'll make a hook, other times not. But those times are few and far between -- we can't rely on "a #1 option" with those results.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby dj vitus on Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:57 pm

When Nash got trapped baseline, he should have lobbed it high over Chalmers. No way he could out-jump Dwight. No way anyone out-jumps Dwight. We need to take advantage of that.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby Ice-Fire on Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:02 pm

I would really consider sending Dwight for Anthony Davis/Ryan Anderson/future 1st round pick..... NO can have star core with Gordon/Howard/ and will have solid flexibility to add talent around Howard & Eric Gordon.... we need to trade Howard he's a cancer.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: (p.863: Nash Frustrated w/Dwight)

Postby last stand on Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:09 pm

yes i'm sure NO is lining up to trade their #1 pick who was considered the best defensive player to come out of college since hakeem
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