D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby Helljumper on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:02 pm

venky wrote:He's a mental midget and a clown. Doesn't deserve to be compared to Shaquille O'Neal. I never got those comparisons in the first place, the difference between them is night and day.


Disagree with the first part, but yes, the comparisons to Shaq are ridiculous. Which is why it's just as ridiculous that some people are acting like the triangle would be a better fit for us. Our post players are nowhere near the level of the post players on our championship teams that ran the triangle.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby KBJelleyBean24 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:09 pm

venky wrote:He's a mental midget and a clown. Doesn't deserve to be compared to Shaquille O'Neal. I never got those comparisons in the first place, the difference between them is night and day.

Lets be real here Shaq was also a mental midget and a clown. One of the reasons the FO picked kobe over him and why he took surgery in the beggining of the season instead of the offseason and regularly was out of shape. With all that said of course Shaq was better than dwight, nobody could bully guys in the post like he did, but Dwight when healthy is still the best center in the league right now especially on defense.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby venky on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:26 pm

Meh. I don't care if you're a clown as long as you produce and Shaq definitely produced.

Shaq was a mental midget in the sense that he couldn't stand Kobe being better than him as he aged. I'll give you that. But in the context of the game, I disagree that he was a mental midget. His FT% rose in the Playoffs, didn't it? I could be wrong.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby revgen on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:29 pm

venky wrote:His FT% rose in the Playoffs, didn't it? I could be wrong.


You're wrong.

Playoff FT%
50.2%

Career FT%

52.7%
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby venky on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:33 pm

Hmm. That's strange. I thought it definitely rose during the Championship years. I guess not.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby revgen on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:39 pm

The only championship season in which his FT% in the postseason rose significantly higher than his regular season averages was in 2001-2002. He shot 55.5FT% in the regular season and 64.9FT% in the playoffs.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby venky on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:41 pm

I guess what I have here is a bad case of confirmation bias. :man1:
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby easyguy on Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:00 pm

Anyone find that Howard smiles/smirks while we are in a dog fight to be annoying? I think he just hides his emotion in then suddenly make stupid fouls to release some of the tension hidden inside.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby thisbjgz on Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:02 pm

He should be the best C in the league, but honestly he hasn't been playing like one. I really hope he breaks out soon. But then again he really needs more shot attempts. like seriously.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby revgen on Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:24 pm

easyguy wrote:Anyone find that Howard smiles/smirks while we are in a dog fight to be annoying? I think he just hides his emotion in then suddenly make stupid fouls to release some of the tension hidden inside.


They are annoying, but it's not something he hasn't done before he came here. He would smirk, smile, and joke with opposing team's players during games when Orlando was losing too.

Nothing Dwight is doing out there surprises me. This is his 9th year in the league. What you see is what you get.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby borri on Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:28 pm

thisbjgz wrote:He should be the best C in the league, but honestly he hasn't been playing like one. I really hope he breaks out soon. But then again he really needs more shot attempts. like seriously.


how can he. Antoni's offense is not center biased. Right guy, wrong system.

Imagine how bad Bynum will look in this offense.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby KBJelleyBean24 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:38 pm

borri wrote:
thisbjgz wrote:He should be the best C in the league, but honestly he hasn't been playing like one. I really hope he breaks out soon. But then again he really needs more shot attempts. like seriously.


how can he. Antoni's offense is not center biased. Right guy, wrong system.

Imagine how bad Bynum will look in this offense.

Except that's not right
http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/name/lal/los-angeles-lakers

If you look under FGA he's forth behind Pau and Metta, but if you factor in FTA per game (10) he's actually getting 15.8 FGA per game, right behind Kobe, so he's actually getting a lot of touches.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby Helljumper on Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:01 pm

KBJelleyBean24 wrote:
borri wrote:
thisbjgz wrote:He should be the best C in the league, but honestly he hasn't been playing like one. I really hope he breaks out soon. But then again he really needs more shot attempts. like seriously.


how can he. Antoni's offense is not center biased. Right guy, wrong system.

Imagine how bad Bynum will look in this offense.

Except that's not right
http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/name/lal/los-angeles-lakers

If you look under FGA he's forth behind Pau and Metta, but if you factor in FTA per game (10) he's actually getting 15.8 FGA per game, right behind Kobe, so he's actually getting a lot of touches.


But ... but ... Antoni!
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby borri on Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:10 pm

KBJelleyBean24 wrote:
borri wrote:
thisbjgz wrote:He should be the best C in the league, but honestly he hasn't been playing like one. I really hope he breaks out soon. But then again he really needs more shot attempts. like seriously.


how can he. Antoni's offense is not center biased. Right guy, wrong system.

Imagine how bad Bynum will look in this offense.

Except that's not right
http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/name/lal/los-angeles-lakers

If you look under FGA he's forth behind Pau and Metta, but if you factor in FTA per game (10) he's actually getting 15.8 FGA per game, right behind Kobe, so he's actually getting a lot of touches.


Not entirely accurate on two levels:

1. Before Antoni: FGA 12 per game FT 10.7 per game
After: FGA 10.1 FT 9.5

2. Take away the hack a D12 strat which has nothing to do with touches, he'll be at 8 FT per game, and that's being KIND.

That's a drop of at least 3 touches per game. Right now he's at about 18 quality touches to score the ball per game.

Don't think that's anywhere near enough for D12.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby LTLakerFan on Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:17 pm

It's not like this guy is constantly getting himself open in the post area with his man sealed if teammates will only throw him the ball. Come on the guy is not Shaq down there and he is quite limited with his repetroire of offensive moves. At least at the level he is playing right now.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby The Rock on Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:19 pm

We need his defensive contributions! We're ok on offense. I dont think he did well in the NYK game on offense but he was big time on defense thats what we need
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:32 pm

KBJelleyBean24 wrote:
borri wrote:
thisbjgz wrote:He should be the best C in the league, but honestly he hasn't been playing like one. I really hope he breaks out soon. But then again he really needs more shot attempts. like seriously.


how can he. Antoni's offense is not center biased. Right guy, wrong system.

Imagine how bad Bynum will look in this offense.

Except that's not right
http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/name/lal/los-angeles-lakers

If you look under FGA he's forth behind Pau and Metta, but if you factor in FTA per game (10) he's actually getting 15.8 FGA per game, right behind Kobe, so he's actually getting a lot of touches.


You can also figure in turnovers if you want and extrapolate even more touches if you like.... never mind that a number of his free throws come from intentional fouls away from the ball..... or in other situations that don't involve him near the ball. Don't let those little facts get in the way of a good narrative.....

Last year he had 13.4 FGA's and 10.6 FTA's... so this year he's lower in both.... and if we total it the way you do a lot lower overall.

Howard's touches are down from last year and down from pre-MDA this year. We are not intentionally looking to post him in recent games. The majority of his touches are in pick and roll situations which I think is great but we also need to toss it into the post with him.... especially when he has favorable match ups like he did last night.

Same goes for Pau. He was eaten alive by Faried on the our defensive glass.... but we didn't make them pay by posting Pau on the much smaller Faried. We could have gotten Pau easy looks or Faried in foul trouble.... but the system is more important and it's better for the system to have Pau 25 feet from the hoop where the mismatch is negated if not turned around in Faried's favor...

That's where MDA is not "adjusting" to his personnel or situations that favor his personnel.... and with our slim margin for error this year it's cost us games and will continue to do so until we either start adjusting or get different personnel.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby borri on Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:38 pm

^^^^

To continue with the D12 touches issue.

1. SInce Antoni, his FGA is down, his FT are down. 2 and 1 per game respectively.
2. Factor in the increase pace of the game, the Lakers are at 98.1 possessions per game and trending towards 100 per game. ORL with D12 was consistently at 94 or so per game, yet his FGA and FT are higher than it is now.

Lower touches for D12 + more team possessions = Antoni's offense is NOT catered to centers. It never has and it never will.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby Helljumper on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:07 pm

borri wrote:^^^^

To continue with the D12 touches issue.

1. SInce Antoni, his FGA is down, his FT are down. 2 and 1 per game respectively.
2. Factor in the increase pace of the game, the Lakers are at 98.1 possessions per game and trending towards 100 per game. ORL with D12 was consistently at 94 or so per game, yet his FGA and FT are higher than it is now.

Lower touches for D12 + more team possessions = Antoni's offense is NOT catered to centers. It never has and it never will
.


No one's disputing this. KBJelleyBean24 was pointing out that D'antoni's offense isn't as limiting to Dwight's game to the extent that some of you are making it out to be.

A few less touches for Dwight isn't a bad thing for the team. A common complaint against D'antoni is that even though his offense might be better for Nash, it's not better for Pau and Dwight. That's probably true. Pau and Dwight will get less touches and there numbers will go down. But it's not true that this is automatically bad for the team. Feeding Pau and Dwight in the post would be better for their individual stats. But it takes the ball out of Nash's hands and relegates him to the role of spot-up shooter. Without Nash facilitating, the amazing ball movement we've seen since Nash's return to D'antoni's system goes away and our perimeter players don't get as many good looks. The paint becomes clogged, diminishing Metta's newfound ability to use his speed to attack the rim.

This is ignoring the fact that Pau can't play in the post anymore and this:

LTLakerFan wrote:It's not like this guy is constantly getting himself open in the post area with his man sealed if teammates will only throw him the ball. Come on the guy is not Shaq down there and he is quite limited with his repetroire of offensive moves. At least at the level he is playing right now.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby odom1year on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:09 pm

When MDA asks Pau to shoot more 3s, we can understand that D12's role in this team is just defense and rebounding.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby King of Clutch on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:13 pm

If dwight needs more touches, its going to be nash who gives it to him. Recently since nash got back dwights shots has gone down because its been kobe n dwight offensively. Now nash is the playmaker who'se spreading it around more. I agree dwights shots shouldn't be getting lower than it is. I think nash needs to look for him more in the pnr and in the post. I'm not saying our offense necessarily needs him to score more, but I just think that he should be more involved offensively, to stay motivated on both ends of the floor all game.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby Center Court on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:52 pm

Helljumper wrote:
borri wrote:^^^^

To continue with the D12 touches issue.

1. SInce Antoni, his FGA is down, his FT are down. 2 and 1 per game respectively.
2. Factor in the increase pace of the game, the Lakers are at 98.1 possessions per game and trending towards 100 per game. ORL with D12 was consistently at 94 or so per game, yet his FGA and FT are higher than it is now.

Lower touches for D12 + more team possessions = Antoni's offense is NOT catered to centers. It never has and it never will
.


No one's disputing this. KBJelleyBean24 was pointing out that D'antoni's offense isn't as limiting to Dwight's game to the extent that some of you are making it out to be.

A few less touches for Dwight isn't a bad thing for the team. A common complaint against D'antoni is that even though his offense might be better for Nash, it's not better for Pau and Dwight. That's probably true. Pau and Dwight will get less touches and there numbers will go down. But it's not true that this is automatically bad for the team. Feeding Pau and Dwight in the post would be better for their individual stats. But it takes the ball out of Nash's hands and relegates him to the role of spot-up shooter. Without Nash facilitating, the amazing ball movement we've seen since Nash's return to D'antoni's system goes away and our perimeter players don't get as many good looks. The paint becomes clogged, diminishing Metta's newfound ability to use his speed to attack the rim.

This is ignoring the fact that Pau can't play in the post anymore and this:

LTLakerFan wrote:It's not like this guy is constantly getting himself open in the post area with his man sealed if teammates will only throw him the ball. Come on the guy is not Shaq down there and he is quite limited with his repetroire of offensive moves. At least at the level he is playing right now.


Dwight getting less touches means more perimeter shooting. That means more long rebounds that we always miss, more run outs, more transition buckets for opponents, more fighting from behind, more mins for Kobe/Nash/Pau, and more playing the style of the Heat/Thunder/Clippers- all of whom will do it better than us. Oh it also lessens ability for Dwight to protect the paint if he's always having to catch up to the action.

Stepping up the tempo and trying put up more shots is a good thing but it need to come in balance with post play. Push it when we have the opportunity, play with a slightly faster pace (which we are doing now) but also throw in into the post a good portion and let Dwight and Pau create. The flip side is the playoffs become a half court game. We can't have an offense that relies on knocking down jumpers. It has to be able to go through the post- Dwight is no Shaq, but he can and should do it far more. It'll open up things for shooters and slashers. If MDA wants to do that off the PNR to create a mismatch for Dwight then do it, but don't just use him as a roll option or decoy to clear up shooters. BRING IT ALL TOGETHER.

Oh, and last thing, if Dwight feels like he's not a feature of the offense, maybe just maybe he'll want to go play somewhere else. Just something to keep in mind.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:00 pm

Helljumper wrote:
borri wrote:^^^^

To continue with the D12 touches issue.

1. SInce Antoni, his FGA is down, his FT are down. 2 and 1 per game respectively.
2. Factor in the increase pace of the game, the Lakers are at 98.1 possessions per game and trending towards 100 per game. ORL with D12 was consistently at 94 or so per game, yet his FGA and FT are higher than it is now.

Lower touches for D12 + more team possessions = Antoni's offense is NOT catered to centers. It never has and it never will
.


No one's disputing this. KBJelleyBean24 was pointing out that D'antoni's offense isn't as limiting to Dwight's game to the extent that some of you are making it out to be.

A few less touches for Dwight isn't a bad thing for the team. A common complaint against D'antoni is that even though his offense might be better for Nash, it's not better for Pau and Dwight. That's probably true. Pau and Dwight will get less touches and there numbers will go down. But it's not true that this is automatically bad for the team. Feeding Pau and Dwight in the post would be better for their individual stats. But it takes the ball out of Nash's hands and relegates him to the role of spot-up shooter. Without Nash facilitating, the amazing ball movement we've seen since Nash's return to D'antoni's system goes away and our perimeter players don't get as many good looks. The paint becomes clogged, diminishing Metta's newfound ability to use his speed to attack the rim.

This is ignoring the fact that Pau can't play in the post anymore and this:

LTLakerFan wrote:It's not like this guy is constantly getting himself open in the post area with his man sealed if teammates will only throw him the ball. Come on the guy is not Shaq down there and he is quite limited with his repetroire of offensive moves. At least at the level he is playing right now.


I don't dispute any of this.... in fact I've said the same things. My issue is with in game match ups, recognition of mismatches and matching personnel to the situation rather than a system. Phil and a few other really good coaches do this (Pop for example). Last night Faried was killing us and we didn't make him uncomfortable on the other end... in fact the system made him have the advantage on most possessions with Pau at or near the 3 point line. That has nothing to do with touches, number of shots or individual scoring...... it does however have to do with lack of recognition of what can help the team in a specific game/situation. Putting Pau in the post and forcing Faried to play defense on a guy much larger than him may have resulted in fouls and/or easy shots for Pau..... both good things.... and both things that are outside the specific system.

Having Pau and Howard playing against Koufos and Faried and not taking advantage of those monumental mismatches is an issue regardless of touch numbers and individual scoring numbers. Instead... we run against a team that is faster and more athletic and try and beat them at their own game....

This seems to escape MDA and it's the reason I've been wanting a trade for personnel that fit the system because we aren't getting rid of MDA this season.... and we are running out of seasons for Kobe to win another one.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby CaCHooKa Man on Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:24 pm

NBA fined him $35k
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: FT stroke found! - pg768

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:30 pm

^^Did they reduce the Flagrant to a 1?
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