D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Doberman on Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:12 am

therealdeal wrote:
Doberman wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
Aren't you the one that keeps saying Orlando is going to trade Howard for Gasol?


No. I'm saying the Lakers are in position to leverage the Magic into trading Dwight for expiring contracts, prospects and draft picks, like the Kwame-Gasol trade.


What expiring contracts?


Next season: Odom/Fisher/Walton = $18 million in expiring contracts.

And I'm fairly sure you've been the one saying that the Lakers can trade Pau for Dwight and have him play PF...


I've made a point regarding any Dwight trade that we keep Bynum and pair them up, and yes, have Dwight play PF. While trading Pau is unlikely, the Odom deal is very feasible.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Alcindor on Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:23 am

^ "Next" season's expirings are not expirings now, our draft picks are crap and um, prospects? Yeah Otis will bite on that.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Doberman on Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:29 am

Alcindor wrote:^ "Next" season's expirings are not expirings now


Who says the deal needs to be made now?

our draft picks are crap and um, prospects? Yeah Otis will bite on that.


It's more or less what we gave up in the Kwame-Gasol deal. And considering Otis won't have many options that Dwight will agree to, our deal has a good chance at being the best offer out there.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby therealdeal on Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:36 am

Doberman wrote:Next season: Odom/Fisher/Walton = $18 million in expiring contracts.



Those are all next season. If Dwight is to be acquired it will be now and they would rather watch him walk then trade for expiring contracts that don't expire until 2013-14.

Doberman wrote:I've made a point regarding any Dwight trade that we keep Bynum and pair them up, and yes, have Dwight play PF. While trading Pau is unlikely, the Odom deal is very feasible.


Pau for Dwight doesn't make sense for them at all and no the Odom deal doesn't make sense either.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Doberman on Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:43 am

therealdeal wrote:
Doberman wrote:Next season: Odom/Fisher/Walton = $18 million in expiring contracts.

Those are all next season. If Dwight is to be acquired it will be now


Why?

and they would rather watch him walk then trade for expiring contracts that don't expire until 2013-14.


No. They would rather take $18 million off the books in 2013 (not the 14 like you claimed) + two 1st rounders and prospects. It was good enough in the Gasol trade which worked out well for the Grizzlies.

Doberman wrote:
I've made a point regarding any Dwight trade that we keep Bynum and pair them up, and yes, have Dwight play PF. While trading Pau is unlikely, the Odom deal is very feasible.


Pau for Dwight doesn't make sense for them at all and no the Odom deal doesn't make sense either.


The Odom deal actually makes perfect sense for the reason I just stated. Something is better than nothing when you have no leverage.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby revgen on Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:51 am

I think people are assuming that Dwight will just walk away in the 2012 offseason and go into the freemarket.

If he doesn't do that, and picks up his 2012-2013 option, then it's a whole 'nother ballgame.

Bynum's contract ends in 2013. The Lakers could theoretically dump Pau using the amnesty clause and have the cap room to sign Dwight to a new contract. They could even sign Bynum with bird rights if they wanted to pay the Luxury Tax.

The other assumption that people seem to be making is that Orlando will simply trade Dwight to us if the deal makes sense from a basketball perspective. The Magic don't want the fans to get pissed off when another Orlando superstar goes to the Lakers. They will probably take their chances by saying goodbye to Dwight in 2013 rather than face a PR nightmare. If Dwight accepts less money in 2013 to play with the Lakers, Orlando can at least say "It ain't our fault".
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Doberman on Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:05 am

revgen wrote:I think people are assuming that Dwight will just walk away in the 2012 offseason and go into the freemarket.

If he doesn't do that, and picks up his 2012-2013 option, then it's a whole 'nother ballgame.


Ah ok.

Well in light of that, I would say that assumption is sketchy, and with the new CBA, even more unlikely. Dwight will very likely pick up the option on the final year of contract and play out the 2012-2013 season. He would become an UFA in summer of 2013 (if he isn't traded by the 2013 trade deadline). It's in his best financial interest to stay under his current contract and sign an extension, than it is to opt out and sign a new contract - where he would make substantially less money.

When you take that into consideration, the Odom/Fisher/Walton/1st rounder/prospects deal is primed to happen.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby therealdeal on Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:32 pm

Doberman wrote:Why?



Timing. Shortened season, perfect for rebuilding when it needs to happen. Howard has made it clear he wants to walk, Orlando would do well to make the moves it needs to now.

Doberman wrote:No. They would rather take $18 million off the books in 2013 (not the 14 like you claimed) + two 1st rounders and prospects. It was good enough in the Gasol trade which worked out well for the Grizzlies.


1. I don't like your tone.
2. Please keep the facts straight, I didn't claim 14 million. What you're referring to was "2013-14" meaning the 2013-2014 season.

The Magic won't take that deal because they'll find better offers elsewhere. Gasol isn't Howard. Howard is going to be getting far more attention than Gasol ever did in 2008 which will result in better offers from other teams.

Doberman wrote:The Odom deal actually makes perfect sense for the reason I just stated. Something is better than nothing when you have no leverage.


Who says they don't have leverage? Again, there's plenty of teams that will make offers and I'm sure some of them will be teams that Howard would like to go to. He has said before that he wants to win, that doesn't mean it's LA or nothing.

You're making a lot of assumptions in your analysis. We all are, but yours are quite glaring.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Doberman on Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:53 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Doberman wrote:Why?


Timing. Shortened season, perfect for rebuilding when it needs to happen. Howard has made it clear he wants to walk, Orlando would do well to make the moves it needs to now.


That's not a practical reason at all. There's no difference between rebuilding this season or the next as far as significance goes.

Doberman wrote:
No. They would rather take $18 million off the books in 2013 (not the 14 like you claimed) + two 1st rounders and prospects. It was good enough in the Gasol trade which worked out well for the Grizzlies.


1. I don't like your tone.
2. Please keep the facts straight, I didn't claim 14 million. What you're referring to was "2013-14" meaning the 2013-2014 season.


What's my tone? When I said "14", I was referring to you saying 2014. The deal would allow the Magic to clear $18 million by the summer of 2013.

The Magic won't take that deal because they'll find better offers elsewhere. Gasol isn't Howard. Howard is going to be getting far more attention than Gasol ever did in 2008 which will result in better offers from other teams.


Show me. Everytime this topic comes up, I issue this challenge and not one opponent of my deal has been able to show another contending team that Dwight would approve of (i.e. Miami, Chicago, Dallas), who can realistically offer what the Lakers can. The 1st rounders and prospects are all a wash, but not one of those teams have $18 million in expiring contracts.

Doberman wrote:
The Odom deal actually makes perfect sense for the reason I just stated. Something is better than nothing when you have no leverage.


Who says they don't have leverage? Again, there's plenty of teams that will make offers and I'm sure some of them will be teams that Howard would like to go to. He has said before that he wants to win, that doesn't mean it's LA or nothing.


Plenty of teams? Dwight wants to WIN NOW. That's a short list of teams. Of the teams that can "win now", show me which ones can offer $18 million salary dump. I'll save you the time and work and just tell you: NONE of them.

You're making a lot of assumptions in your analysis. We all are, but yours are quite glaring.


The one thing I'm assuming (which you're neglecting) is that Howard will only approve of a trade that lands him on a team that can win now. Not just a "good team". He's already on a very good team, and that isn't good enough for him. When factor this into the equation, that reduces Otis' leverage.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby therealdeal on Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:30 pm

I really don't want to get into this with you because I've witnessed your debates and they often lead in circles. So here's my last bit of input. Feel free to respond, but I will not.

Doberman wrote:That's not a practical reason at all. There's no difference between rebuilding this season or the next as far as significance goes.


There's no difference in timing eh? Of course there is. If Orlando sees that they must begin rebuilding, they should do it as soon as possible. Why delay? Look at Utah from last season, full rebuild mode in the middle of the season.

Doberman wrote:What's my tone?

Needlessly condescending.
Doberman wrote: When I said "14", I was referring to you saying 2014. The deal would allow the Magic to clear $18 million by the summer of 2013.


Or said differently just before the 2013-2014 season.
Doberman wrote:Show me. Everytime this topic comes up, I issue this challenge and not one opponent of my deal has been able to show another contending team that Dwight would approve of (i.e. Miami, Chicago, Dallas), who can realistically offer what the Lakers can. The 1st rounders and prospects are all a wash, but not one of those teams have $18 million in expiring contracts.


Oklahoma City:
Westbrook, Perkins, Harden for Howard

Easily a better trade than some expiring contracts. Now they're in full rebuild mode and already able to build around talent. You value expiring contracts like they're the end all be all, but if there's better options why not use them?

Doberman wrote:Plenty of teams? Dwight wants to WIN NOW. That's a short list of teams. Of the teams that can "win now", show me which ones can offer $18 million salary dump. I'll save you the time and work and just tell you: NONE of them.


Again, that's very condescending and I don't appreciate it. I just showed you a team that could offer them a better deal. Want more?
Tim Duncan for Dwight Howard- by your definition, Duncan presents an 18 million dollar expiring contract now as opposed to in the summer of 2013.

Jason Terry, Brendon Haywood, and Beaubois and picks for Howard- Jason Terry is expiring, Beaubois is a solid young prospect along with picks, and Haywood is a decent Center to fill the gap.

Nene Hilario and Ty Lawson for Howard- the Nuggets get the best Center in the league and Orlando gets two pieces you can either build around or let go in a season.

There's plenty of deals out there. And that's just assuming they don't make any moves within their own conference.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby therealdeal on Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:38 pm

Doberman wrote:The one thing I'm assuming (which you're neglecting) is that Howard will only approve of a trade that lands him on a team that can win now. Not just a "good team". He's already on a very good team, and that isn't good enough for him. When factor this into the equation, that reduces Otis' leverage.


Only somewhat. There's going to be plenty of offers and there's more than 3 teams that are truly contenders. Every season there's at least 3-4 teams that can compete for the championship and there's an additional 2-3 that can be contenders if Howard landed there.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Lakerjones on Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:54 pm

Do it Mitch!
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Juronimo on Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:56 pm

Lakerjones wrote:Do it Mitch!


/end thread
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Lakerman JSJ on Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:10 pm

Juronimo wrote:
Lakerjones wrote:Do it Mitch!


/end thread


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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Doberman on Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:37 pm

therealdeal wrote:
There's no difference in timing eh? Of course there is. If Orlando sees that they must begin rebuilding, they should do it as soon as possible. Why delay? Look at Utah from last season, full rebuild mode in the middle of the season.


Orlando wants to keep him. They're not going to trade him until they absolutely must. And since Howard has a huge incentive to play out his current contract, there's no reason to trade him right now.

Doberman wrote:
Show me. Everytime this topic comes up, I issue this challenge and not one opponent of my deal has been able to show another contending team that Dwight would approve of (i.e. Miami, Chicago, Dallas), who can realistically offer what the Lakers can. The 1st rounders and prospects are all a wash, but not one of those teams have $18 million in expiring contracts.


Oklahoma City:
Westbrook, Perkins, Harden for Howard

Easily a better trade than some expiring contracts. Now they're in full rebuild mode and already able to build around talent. You value expiring contracts like they're the end all be all, but if there's better options why not use them?

Doberman wrote:Plenty of teams? Dwight wants to WIN NOW. That's a short list of teams. Of the teams that can "win now", show me which ones can offer $18 million salary dump. I'll save you the time and work and just tell you: NONE of them.


Again, that's very condescending and I don't appreciate it. I just showed you a team that could offer them a better deal. Want more?
Tim Duncan for Dwight Howard- by your definition, Duncan presents an 18 million dollar expiring contract now as opposed to in the summer of 2013.


- Again, Orlando doesn't want to trade him, so why would they make a trade right now? They won't be compelled to trade him til 2012-2013 when his contract is expires, and it becomes clear to them beyond a doubt that he doesn't want to return.

- Honestly, do you REALLY believe that SA won't have Duncan retire a Spur?

Jason Terry, Brendon Haywood, and Beaubois and picks for Howard- Jason Terry is expiring, Beaubois is a solid young prospect along with picks, and Haywood is a decent Center to fill the gap.

Nene Hilario and Ty Lawson for Howard- the Nuggets get the best Center in the league and Orlando gets two pieces you can either build around or let go in a season.

There's plenty of deals out there. And that's just assuming they don't make any moves within their own conference.


All of your proposals failed to account for a couple things:

- Howard isn't opting out in 2012. That makes the expiring contracts in your proposals moot.
- Howard isn't going to Okl or Denver. Neither of those teams are big market or has a legit chance to win a ring (yes, even with Durant).

That's hardly "plenty" like you're saying. With every proposal, you have to consider if Howard will say "yes" to the deal. Basically: is the team substantially better than the 2009 Magic that lost in the finals? As I said before, that's a very short list. If Dallas had expiring deals in 2013, I'd say maybe because their window might be closed. There's no way he goes to OKl or Denver.
Last edited by Doberman on Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Doberman on Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:49 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Doberman wrote:The one thing I'm assuming (which you're neglecting) is that Howard will only approve of a trade that lands him on a team that can win now. Not just a "good team". He's already on a very good team, and that isn't good enough for him. When factor this into the equation, that reduces Otis' leverage.


Only somewhat. There's going to be plenty of offers and there's more than 3 teams that are truly contenders. Every season there's at least 3-4 teams that can compete for the championship and there's an additional 2-3 that can be contenders if Howard landed there.


In the current NBA, I disagree. For the next 5 years, it's all Lakers, Heat, and Bulls. There might be a couple of teams that would be elevated to that level if they could land Howard without giving up anything. But that's not the case.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby therealdeal on Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:55 pm

It's too bad I'm letting myself get sucked into this but here goes...

Doberman wrote:Orlando wants to keep him.

Yes I know they do. But he doesn't want to stay so that doesn't matter. That's the entire reason there's trade rumors here. You think the Nuggets wanted to let go of Carmelo? Of course not.

Doberman wrote: They're not going to trade him until they absolutely must.


They must very soon. It's coming. Why not do it when there's an offer on the table worth something? Just like Utah did. You can't handle when examples are thrown at you, you simply avoid them. It's the reason most people stop trying to talk to you.

Doberman wrote: And since Howard has a huge incentive to play out his current contract, there's no reason to trade him right now.

Not really if he's going to LA. His remaining contract may be worth more than he would get from a contract under the new CBA, but the money he would make up from endorsements and business opportunities in LA would far outweigh that. And if he wants out, he'll get out and Orlando would do well to find the best option they have which can be far better than simply expiring contracts.

Doberman wrote:All of your proposals failed to account for a couple things:

Any of these proposals by anyone's standards fail to account for a lot since none of us are GMs or legal experts on NBA contracts, but I'm anxious to see what you've come up with.

Doberman wrote:- Howard isn't opting out in 2012. That makes the expiring contracts in your proposals moot.

Do you have evidence of this? And even so, it's less important that he's opting out as it is expiring contracts FOR THE MAGIC THAT THEY COULD USE NOW INSTEAD OF IN ANOTHER YEAR.

Doberman wrote:- Howard isn't going to Okl or Denver. Neither of those teams are big market or has a legit chance to win a ring (yes, even with Durant).


Denver and Oklahoma City are both very much contenders. Everyone knows Dwight wants to go to a big market team but that's partly because big market teams win (except for New York). You're wrong about OKC not being a contender. With a Durant/Howard combo, they'd be a juggernaut. Denver with Dwight could definitely put a great run through the playoffs.

Doberman wrote:That's hardly "plenty" like you're saying.


You asked for examples and I gave you some. If you want more you can simply ask instead of talking down to me and that's your final unofficial warning before I give you a real one. Your attitude is unnecessary and grating.

Doberman wrote: With every proposal, you have to consider if Howard will say "yes" to the deal.

I understand that and in every deal I gave you I can easily see Howard agreeing.

Doberman wrote:Basically: is the team substantially better than the 2009 Magic that lost in the finals?


Yes the teams I mentioned would be significantly better.

Doberman wrote:? As I said before, that's a very short list. If Dallas had expiring deals in 2013, I'd say maybe because their window might be closed. There's no way he goes to OKl or Denver.


You're simply wrong. Dallas can make a run at him putting him next to Dirk, you really think he'd say no to that if it was on the table? Please. Especially since they just won the championship. And again you're wrong, he could to either of those teams and make a massive impact.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby therealdeal on Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:00 pm

Doberman wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
Doberman wrote:The one thing I'm assuming (which you're neglecting) is that Howard will only approve of a trade that lands him on a team that can win now. Not just a "good team". He's already on a very good team, and that isn't good enough for him. When factor this into the equation, that reduces Otis' leverage.


Only somewhat. There's going to be plenty of offers and there's more than 3 teams that are truly contenders. Every season there's at least 3-4 teams that can compete for the championship and there's an additional 2-3 that can be contenders if Howard landed there.


In the current NBA, I disagree. For the next 5 years, it's all Lakers, Heat, and Bulls. There might be a couple of teams that would be elevated to that level if they could land Howard without giving up anything. But that's not the case.


And Dallas. And Oklahoma City. And New York. And Boston. And so on and so on. There's always teams that can compete. No one thought much of Dallas this season but they won it all. You can't just say that no team other teams are going to be in the mix, it's foolish. And there's plenty of teams that would become contenders if Howard went there or if Paul or Williams went there.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Doberman on Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:19 pm

Doberman wrote:
Orlando wants to keep him.

Yes I know they do. But he doesn't want to stay so that doesn't matter. That's the entire reason there's trade rumors here. You think the Nuggets wanted to let go of Carmelo? Of course not.


You're missing the point here: Orlando is actually TRYING to keep him. They have and will continue to try until their time runs out - which won't be til 2013. Denver didn't trade Carmelo until they were in the same situation (his contract was expiring). We're not there yet Dwight.

Doberman wrote:
They're not going to trade him until they absolutely must.


They must very soon. It's coming.


Yes. 2013. Not today like you're trying to make it sound.

Why not do it when there's an offer on the table worth something? Just like Utah did. You can't handle when examples are thrown at you, you simply avoid them. It's the reason most people stop trying to talk to you.


You're avoiding mine just the same as I've addressed this many times now: Orlando WANTS TO KEEP HIM. They're not trying to trade him right now. He's NOT ON THE MARKET right now. I'm not sure why you won't accept this. You're proposing deals in a situation that doesn't exist. Howard won't be a FA in 2012, he will be in 2013. Therefore he won't be traded until then. It's that simple.

Doberman wrote:
And since Howard has a huge incentive to play out his current contract, there's no reason to trade him right now.

Not really if he's going to LA. His remaining contract may be worth more than he would get from a contract under the new CBA, but the money he would make up from endorsements and business opportunities in LA would far outweigh that. And if he wants out, he'll get out and Orlando would do well to find the best option they have which can be far better than simply expiring contracts.


It's not either or. Nothing says he can't have both which is what he'll be aiming for (all athletes do). Him playing out his contract doesn't preclude him from being traded to LA.

Doberman wrote:
All of your proposals failed to account for a couple things:

Any of these proposals by anyone's standards fail to account for a lot since none of us are GMs or legal experts on NBA contracts, but I'm anxious to see what you've come up with.


Yours fail to account for fundamental factors of the situation (i.e. big market, top tier contender, 2013 plan). And I've already made my proposal, which is the whole reason you're posting right now.

Doberman wrote:
Howard isn't opting out in 2012. That makes the expiring contracts in your proposals moot.

Do you have evidence of this?


Simple math and logic. $19 million and 8% raises for the next for years or about $15 million and 4.5% raises in the next 4 years. Which would you choose? And please don't come back with "he'll make up the difference in endosements", because as I already said, he can have the big contract and still come to LA for the big market.

And even so, it's less important that he's opting out as it is expiring contracts FOR THE MAGIC THAT THEY COULD USE NOW INSTEAD OF IN ANOTHER YEAR.


Because they want to keep him as long as possible, and if they can't, they can still get expiring contracts. They have no reason to rush. You want to believe they must only because you want to believe the deal will happen ASAP.

Doberman wrote:
Howard isn't going to Okl or Denver. Neither of those teams are big market or has a legit chance to win a ring (yes, even with Durant).


Denver and Oklahoma City are both very much contenders. Everyone knows Dwight wants to go to a big market team but that's partly because big market teams win (except for New York). You're wrong about OKC not being a contender. With a Durant/Howard combo, they'd be a juggernaut.


With just Durant and Howard they have a good foundation. But no, unless they're deep, they're not going to win it all. Miami's big 3 was a bigger juggernaut and they lost to a team that was more loaded. You're not going to get it done with JUST two stars.

Denver with Dwight could definitely put a great run through the playoffs.


That doesn't match his criteria. Denver is out.

Doberman wrote:
That's hardly "plenty" like you're saying.


You asked for examples and I gave you some. If you want more you can simply ask instead of talking down to me and that's your final unofficial warning before I give you a real one. Your attitude is unnecessary and grating.


I've replied succinctly and factually to all your points. If you think I'm giving you attitude, I don't know what to say. That's simply your inference and not the reality of the matter, but I also find it ironic since it was your first response to me that was pretty snide, yet I ignored it and simply addressed your points. You've also admitted that you're letting yourself get worked up on the matter, so I don't think you're being entirely fair right now and letting your emotions get the best of you.

Doberman wrote:
With every proposal, you have to consider if Howard will say "yes" to the deal.

I understand that and in every deal I gave you I can easily see Howard agreeing.


If Okl can net another star, then maybe. But not to the Denver deal. A "good run" is not good enough for him.

Doberman wrote:
Basically: is the team substantially better than the 2009 Magic that lost in the finals?


Yes the teams I mentioned would be significantly better.


Denver? Really?

Doberman wrote:
As I said before, that's a very short list. If Dallas had expiring deals in 2013, I'd say maybe because their window might be closed. There's no way he goes to OKl or Denver.


You're simply wrong. Dallas can make a run at him putting him next to Dirk, you really think he'd say no to that if it was on the table? Please. Especially since they just won the championship. And again you're wrong, he could to either of those teams and make a massive impact.


Orlando wouldn't accept the deal, or ANY deal this year, because they don't have to move him. They'll keep him as long as they can.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Doberman on Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:25 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Doberman wrote:
In the current NBA, I disagree. For the next 5 years, it's all Lakers, Heat, and Bulls. There might be a couple of teams that would be elevated to that level if they could land Howard without giving up anything. But that's not the case.


And Dallas. And Oklahoma City. And New York. And Boston. And so on and so on. There's always teams that can compete. No one thought much of Dallas this season but they won it all.


Dallas and Boston won't be contenders for more than another year (if that). Since when is NY a contender? They haven't been, and won't be for awhile. OKL will be if they can keep Westbrook and Durant, but your proposal has him in the trade.

You can't just say that no team other teams are going to be in the mix, it's foolish. And there's plenty of teams that would become contenders if Howard went there or if Paul or Williams went there.


At any given season, by the time the playoffs arrive, there are only 3 or 4 teams that are legtimate contenders. In 2013, Howard will assess which ones are, and can continue to be for years to come. That won't include Dallas or Boston. Sure other teams might put something together and become contenders, but if they don't have a stacked roster in the next year, one as intimidating as the Lakers, Heat or Bulls, then Howard has no reason to gamble on them. He clearly wants the surest thing possible as getting to finals wasn't enough for him.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby noobiew on Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:44 pm

I will already be very happy if we could land either one of them, let alone two!
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Alcindor on Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:21 pm

Doberman wrote:
Doberman wrote:
Orlando wants to keep him.

Yes I know they do. But he doesn't want to stay so that doesn't matter. That's the entire reason there's trade rumors here. You think the Nuggets wanted to let go of Carmelo? Of course not.


You're missing the point here: Orlando is actually TRYING to keep him. They have and will continue to try until their time runs out - which won't be til 2013. Denver didn't trade Carmelo until they were in the same situation (his contract was expiring). We're not there yet Dwight.

Doberman wrote:
They're not going to trade him until they absolutely must.


They must very soon. It's coming.


Yes. 2013. Not today like you're trying to make it sound.

Why not do it when there's an offer on the table worth something? Just like Utah did. You can't handle when examples are thrown at you, you simply avoid them. It's the reason most people stop trying to talk to you.


You're avoiding mine just the same as I've addressed this many times now: Orlando WANTS TO KEEP HIM. They're not trying to trade him right now. He's NOT ON THE MARKET right now. I'm not sure why you won't accept this. You're proposing deals in a situation that doesn't exist. Howard won't be a FA in 2012, he will be in 2013. Therefore he won't be traded until then. It's that simple.

Doberman wrote:
And since Howard has a huge incentive to play out his current contract, there's no reason to trade him right now.

Not really if he's going to LA. His remaining contract may be worth more than he would get from a contract under the new CBA, but the money he would make up from endorsements and business opportunities in LA would far outweigh that. And if he wants out, he'll get out and Orlando would do well to find the best option they have which can be far better than simply expiring contracts.


It's not either or. Nothing says he can't have both which is what he'll be aiming for (all athletes do). Him playing out his contract doesn't preclude him from being traded to LA.

Doberman wrote:
All of your proposals failed to account for a couple things:

Any of these proposals by anyone's standards fail to account for a lot since none of us are GMs or legal experts on NBA contracts, but I'm anxious to see what you've come up with.


Yours fail to account for fundamental factors of the situation (i.e. big market, top tier contender, 2013 plan). And I've already made my proposal, which is the whole reason you're posting right now.

Doberman wrote:
Howard isn't opting out in 2012. That makes the expiring contracts in your proposals moot.

Do you have evidence of this?


Simple math and logic. $19 million and 8% raises for the next for years or about $15 million and 4.5% raises in the next 4 years. Which would you choose? And please don't come back with "he'll make up the difference in endosements", because as I already said, he can have the big contract and still come to LA for the big market.

And even so, it's less important that he's opting out as it is expiring contracts FOR THE MAGIC THAT THEY COULD USE NOW INSTEAD OF IN ANOTHER YEAR.


Because they want to keep him as long as possible, and if they can't, they can still get expiring contracts. They have no reason to rush. You want to believe they must only because you want to believe the deal will happen ASAP.

Doberman wrote:
Howard isn't going to Okl or Denver. Neither of those teams are big market or has a legit chance to win a ring (yes, even with Durant).


Denver and Oklahoma City are both very much contenders. Everyone knows Dwight wants to go to a big market team but that's partly because big market teams win (except for New York). You're wrong about OKC not being a contender. With a Durant/Howard combo, they'd be a juggernaut.


With just Durant and Howard they have a good foundation. But no, unless they're deep, they're not going to win it all. Miami's big 3 was a bigger juggernaut and they lost to a team that was more loaded. You're not going to get it done with JUST two stars.

Denver with Dwight could definitely put a great run through the playoffs.


That doesn't match his criteria. Denver is out.

Doberman wrote:
That's hardly "plenty" like you're saying.


You asked for examples and I gave you some. If you want more you can simply ask instead of talking down to me and that's your final unofficial warning before I give you a real one. Your attitude is unnecessary and grating.


I've replied succinctly and factually to all your points. If you think I'm giving you attitude, I don't know what to say. That's simply your inference and not the reality of the matter, but I also find it ironic since it was your first response to me that was pretty snide, yet I ignored it and simply addressed your points. You've also admitted that you're letting yourself get worked up on the matter, so I don't think you're being entirely fair right now and letting your emotions get the best of you.

Doberman wrote:
With every proposal, you have to consider if Howard will say "yes" to the deal.

I understand that and in every deal I gave you I can easily see Howard agreeing.


If Okl can net another star, then maybe. But not to the Denver deal. A "good run" is not good enough for him.

Doberman wrote:
Basically: is the team substantially better than the 2009 Magic that lost in the finals?


Yes the teams I mentioned would be significantly better.


Denver? Really?

Doberman wrote:
As I said before, that's a very short list. If Dallas had expiring deals in 2013, I'd say maybe because their window might be closed. There's no way he goes to OKl or Denver.


You're simply wrong. Dallas can make a run at him putting him next to Dirk, you really think he'd say no to that if it was on the table? Please. Especially since they just won the championship. And again you're wrong, he could to either of those teams and make a massive impact.


Orlando wouldn't accept the deal, or ANY deal this year, because they don't have to move him. They'll keep him as long as they can.



I think DH feel's it's too risky to wait until 2013, he wants a contender and if he doesn't get a S&T in the next 2 years then he won't get to be on a contender (at least a tax paying one) as beginning 2013-2014 teams can't acquire a FA in a S&T transaction if they end up with a total team salary 4 mil or more over the tax level. Dwight has said he will not miss an opportunity to go to a "winner" and that he is aware the window to do so is closing rapidly. Imo kissing goodbye to the last year of his deal for a new contract is not that big of a financial hit to him and getting to go where you want to sometimes requires a little sacrifice small as it would be initially (and most likely profitable in the long run) in going to LA. Waiting until 2013 when contending teams need to make there roster decisions now, this year, is the closing window he is referring to.

To state things like "Howard isn't opting out in 2012" or that OKC is "not going to win it all" (after real offered you a perfectly good example to your "name a contender" challenge) avoidingly, comes across as if you have some sense of entitlement that makes your opinions beyond dispute is what is probably an irritant to real. Having an exaggerated sense of one's own opinions is the basic definition of arrogance. Your opinions are yours not everyone's, and even quite possible not always (god forbid) correct.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby ggamannom on Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:57 pm

Spoiler:
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby dane99 on Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:10 pm

we always do but i doubt we will get any of them, we can get younger i think we will now be able to sign players who are waived more easily phil did not like this much, but with a simpler system players will able to fit here easier. guys who might get bought out rashard lewis, baron davis. i want BARON good fit i think ))
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Doberman on Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:43 am

Alcindor wrote:I think DH feel's it's too risky to wait until 2013, he wants a contender and if he doesn't get a S&T in the next 2 years then he won't get to be on a contender (at least a tax paying one) as beginning 2013-2014 teams can't acquire a FA in a S&T transaction if they end up with a total team salary 4 mil or more over the tax level. Dwight has said he will not miss an opportunity to go to a "winner" and that he is aware the window to do so is closing rapidly. Imo kissing goodbye to the last year of his deal for a new contract is not that big of a financial hit to him and getting to go where you want to sometimes requires a little sacrifice small as it would be initially (and most likely profitable in the long run) in going to LA. Waiting until 2013 when contending teams need to make there roster decisions now, this year, is the closing window he is referring to.


The proposal I made is in line with that time frame. It's just one year from now, rather than now. To boot, it's not a "small" financial hit, otherwise I'd agree with you. If he opts out, it substantially alters his salary for the rest of his career. Several million a year. Over the course of his career that can add up to anywhere between $20-$40 million. That's ALOT. And there's nothing that prevents him from coming to LA if he plays out his current deal.

To state things like "Howard isn't opting out in 2012" or that OKC is "not going to win it all" (after real offered you a perfectly good example to your "name a contender" challenge) avoidingly, comes across as if you have some sense of entitlement that makes your opinions beyond dispute is what is probably an irritant to real. Having an exaggerated sense of one's own opinions is the basic definition of arrogance. Your opinions are yours not everyone's, and even quite possible not always (god forbid) correct.


Point taken.
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