D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby westcoast21 on Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:36 am

Just saw on Twitter from a guy who covers the Nets that Deron Williams will not sign an extension with the team and will head to free agency at the end of the season.

That all but closes the book on the Dwight to New Jersey possibility. He will definitely not want to sign an extension there now.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:44 pm

Lakerjones wrote:I really think Dwight would be a great fit the Lakers. He's a superstar player and he could be the draw as Kobe enters his twilight years. He has the charisma and marketability. These things are all pretty obvious.

I wouldn't mind giving up Bynum and Odom if that's what it takes. Once again, Odom has proven to be an underachiever - this time where it really counted in the playoffs. It kind of shocked me given his high level play and 6th Man of the Year Award for the regular season. But he was just as much of a no-show in the playoffs as Pau Gasol was, and that's saying a lot. The two of them were equally disappointing.

For me, a lot of what Odom represents is Bynum insurance. If you have Bynum you just don't know about his future health so it's important to have another guy to come in if Pau has to move to center. But last year proved that Pau at center simply isn't viable for any length of time. In that case Odom's talent and versatility may not be as important to us as having a true backup Center.

All of this is kind of erased if you are trading Bynum and Odom for Howard. Howard is an iron man and has stayed injury-free, at least thus far. Pau has also had a pretty good history of staying injury free with the exception of the occasional hamstring pull.

Howard and Pau and Kobe going forward would be a remarkable, bankable, and hopefully winning trio.



Howard is a "superstar" not because of his work ethic or results on the floor. Endorsement deals, Slam Dunk contests and his personality are the reasons IMO. He is a very pedestrian player with his back to the basket and one injury to his lower body and he won't be dunking it on everyone either. He dunks more than anyone in the league..... his non-dunk shooting percentage is below 50%.... That isn't good for a center. This isn't like getting Shaq in the 90's and getting rid of Divac. This upgrade, if any at all, is small except in the marketing department.

As you indicated, he solves the Buss Families problem of what to do after Kobe and I'm afraid that will be an overriding factor if we do this. Howard, on this current team, won't be any better than Bynum and we lose Odom, which is our only proven bench player/back-up center/back-up PF/ part time facilitator/best rebounder per minute.........

Who backs Howard and Pau up? You get Howard, but the team is further from another championship in the Kobe era....Where/how do we get a point guard? How do we improve at the 2? If we trade Odom we need these players before we need an arguable upgrade at the 5. Our trade assets would be what...Fisher, Artest, Blake and Walton?
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby abeer3 on Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:53 pm

i just disagree with the overall assessment of howard, roo. i think he's the best defensive player in the nba, and certainly good enough to be the second (or third if the lakers could keep pau) best offensive player on a championship team.

if i had dwight, i'd roll the dice for another year with blake and fisher at pg.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby therealdeal on Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:54 pm

^ You're underrating Howard and his effectiveness.

You're right that his production apart from dunks isn't great, but that's irrelevant considering the number of dunks he gets. Not to mention that his offensive arsenal last season showed improvement. Come to LA and he will continue to develop. Part of what he wants is to play with Kobe and allow Kobe to mentor him as far as improving himself goes.

Factor in that he's playing next to Pau Gasol and Kobe Bryant and understand that he's going to come here as a defensive force rather than an offensive force. He is more than capable of replacing Andrew in the defensive department, the guy is a natural.

You can use the "all it takes is one injury" argument with anyone. The fact is Andrew poses a massive health risk and Howard doesn't. Dwight has missed a total of 7 games over the course of his entire career. There's only been one season when Bynum has missed less than 7 games (his sophomore year).
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:13 pm

^^Howard's defense is great.... no doubt. He is not a "game changer" however.

The point I'm making is that he isn't that much better than Bynum and on a per minute basis their stats are nearly the same. Howard hasn't led anybody anywhere. LeBron gets piles of crap around here for his failures and Howard is revered.... I don't get it. The results are the same for both of them.

Howard plays in a system where the PF is at or near the 3 point line as is the small forward. We could do that here but the opposing defense would laugh and pack the paint with the guys we have. Pau is a post player and Howard has always played with an "open" lane so to speak. His lack of fundamentals would be exposed here.

As for his improvement last year..... one turnaround jumper a game out of 4 isn't really showing me much.

Overall we lose way to much in getting Howard to help Kobe get number 6. We would need to unload Pau to get some viable pieces back to actually put together a team.

The point about the injury I was making is that Andrew has come back from serious injury and been successful.... why? Because he works on his game and has a fundamental base to work from. Howard's footwork is atrocious and his shot is even worse.

Finally, I'm more concerned with the Lakers hitching their "post Kobe" hopes to this guy than anything else. He isn't a leader, a motivator or a clutch player. You need to be at least 2 out of those 3 to be a true superstar that can lead a team to a championship.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby juninho on Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:14 pm

bynum+lamar+ebanks+caracter+picks for cp3+okafor
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby jlkr on Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:27 pm

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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby FabFourLakers on Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:30 pm




Paul allegedly is delusional for thinking the Hornets will take NY Knicks TRASH in any deal.

The only guy they can offer is Chauncey Billups...but Hornets can surely get a better deal for Cp3 with the Lakers!
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby therealdeal on Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:38 pm

Rooscooter wrote:^^Howard's defense is great.... no doubt. He is not a "game changer" however.

The point I'm making is that he isn't that much better than Bynum and on a per minute basis their stats are nearly the same. Howard hasn't led anybody anywhere. LeBron gets piles of crap around here for his failures and Howard is revered.... I don't get it. The results are the same for both of them.

Howard plays in a system where the PF is at or near the 3 point line as is the small forward. We could do that here but the opposing defense would laugh and pack the paint with the guys we have. Pau is a post player and Howard has always played with an "open" lane so to speak. His lack of fundamentals would be exposed here.

As for his improvement last year..... one turnaround jumper a game out of 4 isn't really showing me much.

Overall we lose way to much in getting Howard to help Kobe get number 6. We would need to unload Pau to get some viable pieces back to actually put together a team.

The point about the injury I was making is that Andrew has come back from serious injury and been successful.... why? Because he works on his game and has a fundamental base to work from. Howard's footwork is atrocious and his shot is even worse.

Finally, I'm more concerned with the Lakers hitching their "post Kobe" hopes to this guy than anything else. He isn't a leader, a motivator or a clutch player. You need to be at least 2 out of those 3 to be a true superstar that can lead a team to a championship.


How is he not a "game changer"? He commands doubles from every single team. Even Bynum is only effective against him for stretches. Howard is absolutely a game changer.

I know their numbers are similar, I've been one of those on this site that has pointed that out the most. The point is that he has the ability to put those numbers up on a far more consistent basis. He has lead a team to the Finals which is more than can be said for Paul or Williams. He's loved because he's charismatic and doesn't have the intense ego that James does.

Playing next to Pau is going to make his game that much easier actually because Pau is an excellent post player. Are they really going to double Howard off of Pau? And if they don't, how will they stop him? His footwork isn't great, but it's not necessarily relevant to him because of his ability to power his way to the basket. Not to mention that put in the right position (aka next to Kobe), you had better believe his footwork is going to improve along with the rest of his offense.

I agree, but improvement is improvement. And like I've said, I can't see him not improving more here.

I don't know if we'd need to unload Pau, but it'd be a good idea. Heck, it'd be a good idea regardless of getting Howard. His contract over the next few years is going to be a huge boon on this team.

Eh. You could say that Bynum had to work on his game because of injuries. There's no guarantee that Howard can't do that. You say it like there's something stopping him from improving.

I don't know if you need to fit those criteria necessarily as a big man. Look at Shaq. Was he really a leader? In some ways, maybe more of one than Howard, but not necessarily a real leader. Was he a motivator? I don't really think so. Was he clutch? Sometimes yes, but not all the time. And that's harder to do as a big man than it is as a swing.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby jlkr on Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:41 pm

FabFourLakers wrote:



Paul allegedly is delusional for thinking the Hornets will take NY Knicks TRASH in any deal.

The only guy they can offer is Chauncey Billups...but Hornets can surely get a better deal for Cp3 with the Lakers!

I agree... they'd have to do it with a 3rd team in the mix somehow. If CP3 was really truly dead set on the Knicks, that might be the only way NO gets something they can live with.

I wouldn't sneeze at Billups though, he does have a sizable expiring deal if all else fails. Hrm... that could shape a 3 team deal, NYK gets a 3rd team interested in Billups' expiring contract, then that 3rd team could supply acceptable players to NO. Fillers as necessary... Maybe this isn't too far out.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby last stand on Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:52 pm

Dwight Howard can score from the post now. Watch him last season he was the best scoring big man in basketball. He has a nasty interior hook shot and doesn't have a terrible turnaround hook

Dwight averaged 25ppg while still being the leagues elite defender and rebound 12 a game. He's worth anyone not named Kobe bryant. People are still judging Dwight from the 2009 finals instead of watching him
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby XXIV on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:01 pm

last stand wrote:Dwight Howard can score from the post now. Watch him last season he was the best scoring big man in basketball. He has a nasty interior hook shot and doesn't have a terrible turnaround hook

Dwight averaged 25ppg while still being the leagues elite defender and rebound 12 a game. He's worth anyone not named Kobe bryant. People are still judging Dwight from the 2009 finals instead of watching him


I can vouch for this, I had Dwight on my fantasy team last year so I watched him whenever I had a chance and his offensive game has improved. He has a hook shot, put backs, some post moves, and he's developing a mid range jump shot which he used last year.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby last stand on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:09 pm

The Bynum minutes argument is always funny and always irrelevant. He cannot play more minutes. He's always a danger to be hurt
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:13 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^Howard's defense is great.... no doubt. He is not a "game changer" however.

The point I'm making is that he isn't that much better than Bynum and on a per minute basis their stats are nearly the same. Howard hasn't led anybody anywhere. LeBron gets piles of crap around here for his failures and Howard is revered.... I don't get it. The results are the same for both of them.

Howard plays in a system where the PF is at or near the 3 point line as is the small forward. We could do that here but the opposing defense would laugh and pack the paint with the guys we have. Pau is a post player and Howard has always played with an "open" lane so to speak. His lack of fundamentals would be exposed here.

As for his improvement last year..... one turnaround jumper a game out of 4 isn't really showing me much.

Overall we lose way to much in getting Howard to help Kobe get number 6. We would need to unload Pau to get some viable pieces back to actually put together a team.

The point about the injury I was making is that Andrew has come back from serious injury and been successful.... why? Because he works on his game and has a fundamental base to work from. Howard's footwork is atrocious and his shot is even worse.

Finally, I'm more concerned with the Lakers hitching their "post Kobe" hopes to this guy than anything else. He isn't a leader, a motivator or a clutch player. You need to be at least 2 out of those 3 to be a true superstar that can lead a team to a championship.


How is he not a "game changer"? He commands doubles from every single team. Even Bynum is only effective against him for stretches. Howard is absolutely a game changer.

I know their numbers are similar, I've been one of those on this site that has pointed that out the most. The point is that he has the ability to put those numbers up on a far more consistent basis. He has lead a team to the Finals which is more than can be said for Paul or Williams. He's loved because he's charismatic and doesn't have the intense ego that James does.

Playing next to Pau is going to make his game that much easier actually because Pau is an excellent post player. Are they really going to double Howard off of Pau? And if they don't, how will they stop him? His footwork isn't great, but it's not necessarily relevant to him because of his ability to power his way to the basket. Not to mention that put in the right position (aka next to Kobe), you had better believe his footwork is going to improve along with the rest of his offense.

I agree, but improvement is improvement. And like I've said, I can't see him not improving more here.

I don't know if we'd need to unload Pau, but it'd be a good idea. Heck, it'd be a good idea regardless of getting Howard. His contract over the next few years is going to be a huge boon on this team.

Eh. You could say that Bynum had to work on his game because of injuries. There's no guarantee that Howard can't do that. You say it like there's something stopping him from improving.

I don't know if you need to fit those criteria necessarily as a big man. Look at Shaq. Was he really a leader? In some ways, maybe more of one than Howard, but not necessarily a real leader. Was he a motivator? I don't really think so. Was he clutch? Sometimes yes, but not all the time. And that's harder to do as a big man than it is as a swing.


I'll agree to disagree I guess..... For this team I don't see Howard as much of an improvement and especially so if we have to give up Odom. In the future I don't see him leading in the post Kobe era either. Is he better than Bynum as an individual player? Yea. Is he a lot better? No. Now if we are talking butts in the seat, eyes on the tube and merchandise flying off the shelf then he is a lot better than 90% of the NBA....... I'm trying to distinguish between the two.

Howard has has a number of years to improve...... and he hasn't really. I can easily see him not improving.... after all that is his history to this point.

The only thing you wrote that I really disagree with is the comparisons of Howard to Shaq. While I'm not the biggest Shaq fan around I will say that putting Howard in the same conversation is a stretch. Howard is a good player..... Shaq was an all time great player for his first 12 years..... The difference between the two is insurmountable for Howard to ever overcome IMO.

With the new CBA the Lakers need to be very careful who they decide to use that Max Contract on going forward. That person needs to embody at least 2 of those criteria IMO to actually give us a chance after Kobe.

With all of that said.... I can see the Lakers making this move if it becomes available for cash flow reasons if nothing else...
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:21 pm

last stand wrote:The Bynum minutes argument is always funny and always irrelevant. He cannot play more minutes. He's always a danger to be hurt


What's irrelevant is this argument. You can get hurt in practice, getting off the bus, falling down the stairs, cleaning vegetables and playing in games. Over my time as a Laker fan I've watched players get hurt each of these ways.

So if we play Bynum more than 24 minutes he WILL get hurt?

That 25th minute is going to get him every time......

What's more relevant in the amount of touches and the conversion rate of those touches IMO. Bynum is better per minute than Howard. Howard scores more because of the minute differential and offensive put-backs. Howard won't get the touches he does in Orlando with Pau and Kobe in the starting line-up.... that much we can all be sure of......

I think you are also misunderstanding my points. Howard as an individual player is better than Bynum, but not a lot.... and certainly not by an Odom........
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby lakerfan2 on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:32 pm

again, back to the same argument, 1st option vs 3rd option.

a center with great defensive skills and sub par offensive skills vs a center with good offensive skills, and good defensive skills.

a 6'11 center vs a 7'1 center.

a 265 lb center vs a 280 lb center.

a historically healthy center vs a center with an injury past.

a marketable center vs a methodical center developing under a megastar player.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby last stand on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:50 pm

Lol at sub par skills. Really? How much 2010 Dwight Howard did u watch
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:54 pm

lakerfan2 wrote:again, back to the same argument, 1st option vs 3rd option.

a center with great defensive skills and sub par offensive skills vs a center with good offensive skills, and good defensive skills.

a 6'11 center vs a 7'1 center.

a 265 lb center vs a 280 lb center.

a historically healthy center vs a center with an injury past.

a marketable center vs a methodical center developing under a megastar player.


Clear and to the point......

The only things I would add are:

Contract value and the new CBA. Bynum is not getting max contract money and Howard is.....

Howard would be demoted to second or third option here.... at least for a few years and Bynum would be elevated to first or second immediately.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Alcindor on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:56 pm

Rooscooter wrote:Howard is a "superstar" not because of his work ethic or results on the floor. Endorsement deals, Slam Dunk contests and his personality are the reasons IMO. He is a very pedestrian player with his back to the basket and one injury to his lower body and he won't be dunking it on everyone either. He dunks more than anyone in the league..... his non-dunk shooting percentage is below 50%.... That isn't good for a center. This isn't like getting Shaq in the 90's and getting rid of Divac. This upgrade, if any at all, is small except in the marketing department.

As you indicated, he solves the Buss Families problem of what to do after Kobe and I'm afraid that will be an overriding factor if we do this. Howard, on this current team, won't be any better than Bynum and we lose Odom, which is our only proven bench player/back-up center/back-up PF/ part time facilitator/best rebounder per minute.........

Who backs Howard and Pau up? You get Howard, but the team is further from another championship in the Kobe era....Where/how do we get a point guard? How do we improve at the 2? If we trade Odom we need these players before we need an arguable upgrade at the 5. Our trade assets would be what...Fisher, Artest, Blake and Walton?


I'm in agreement about not doing Bynum+Odom for DH but I don't agree that it isn't his performance and some personality feature that makes him a superstar. He is a bonifide SS imo. 23PPG on .593 shooting 14RPG 2.4BPG are superstar numbers. Shaqs numbers at 25 years old ('97-'98) were 28PPG on .582 shooting 11RPG 2.4 BPG, boarding easily makes up the points difference and Dwight plays more games, he averages 81 compared to 67.66 for a 25 year old Shaq 6 seasons into his career. Also Kobe had never averaged higher than 15PPG at this point so it wasn't like Shaq was sharing either. Yeah he is more marketable than Bynum, but that doesn't take away from his performance which Bynum to date has only matched in tiny spurts.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby last stand on Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:59 pm

Howard has taken a team to the finals as the leader. Has Bynum?
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby therealdeal on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:09 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
lakerfan2 wrote:again, back to the same argument, 1st option vs 3rd option.

a center with great defensive skills and sub par offensive skills vs a center with good offensive skills, and good defensive skills.

a 6'11 center vs a 7'1 center.

a 265 lb center vs a 280 lb center.

a historically healthy center vs a center with an injury past.

a marketable center vs a methodical center developing under a megastar player.


Clear and to the point......

The only things I would add are:

Contract value and the new CBA. Bynum is not getting max contract money and Howard is.....

Howard would be demoted to second or third option here.... at least for a few years and Bynum would be elevated to first or second immediately.


Howard will also get a contract under the new CBA which will be easier to handle.

I think if Howard comes here he's automatically promoted to 2nd in the pecking order. I just don't see that not happening.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:10 pm

last stand wrote:Howard has taken a team to the finals as the leader. Has Bynum?


Where have I made that comparison? Have you been reading what I've posted? I'm not comparing the two in a vacuum or on a "fantasy" level. I'm looking at Bynum + Odom and what that does to our team. Howard is more expensive, his acquisition would severely hamper future acquisitions or necessitate a trade of Pau, and we already have the second best Center on our team. We need point guards, shooters and bench players to make a run the next 2 or 3 years and get Kobe his 6 or 7 rings. Howard for Bynum and Odom doesn't get us to the same level as Bynum, Pau, Kobe and say a top flight point guard that Odom could bring in a trade. With his very cap friendly contract we might be able to attach some of our trash along with it to boot.

Howard has gone to the finals..... so has Bynum. Howard leading his team there is just like LeBron leading his teams there IMO. Everyone is so quick to jump on LeBron for failure... why not Howard?

Bynum hasn't had a chance to lead has he? We don't know what we don't know....

If it were Howard for Bynum straight up then we get better..... albeit not by as much as some think IMO.....
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby lakerfan2 on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:14 pm

last stand wrote:Lol at sub par skills. Really? How much 2010 Dwight Howard did u watch


A lot actually. The Center position is my favorite position and one I put most scrutiny on as they are the main part of the team.

Howard has TWO moves.

1. Lower his shoulder, and try a running hook shot.

2. Spin move to the basket and dunk.

Other than that, it's lobs, putbacks, and some move to get a dunk.

Where's the footwork? Where's the interior passing? Where's the left hand?

Bynum isn't a master of those skills, but he does have them to go to. His footwork for his size is great (thanks to Kareem), and takes his time in the post to methodically decide what to do. With Kobe and Pau as main options, it's hard for Bynum to get a real chance to showcase it. He was flourishing in the playoffs at the chances he had when Pau was struggling, but they kept going away from him for no good reason.
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Rooscooter on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:15 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
lakerfan2 wrote:again, back to the same argument, 1st option vs 3rd option.

a center with great defensive skills and sub par offensive skills vs a center with good offensive skills, and good defensive skills.

a 6'11 center vs a 7'1 center.

a 265 lb center vs a 280 lb center.

a historically healthy center vs a center with an injury past.

a marketable center vs a methodical center developing under a megastar player.


Clear and to the point......

The only things I would add are:

Contract value and the new CBA. Bynum is not getting max contract money and Howard is.....

Howard would be demoted to second or third option here.... at least for a few years and Bynum would be elevated to first or second immediately.


Howard will also get a contract under the new CBA which will be easier to handle.

I think if Howard comes here he's automatically promoted to 2nd in the pecking order. I just don't see that not happening.



Down by 4 with under a minute left....... you throw it in to Howard or Pau..... or more to the point.... you painfully watch two free trows clank off the rim, along with the chances for a comeback or you go with Pau.......
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Re: Mark Heisler: Lakers Will Look to Acquire Dwight AND CP3

Postby Center Court on Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:16 pm

what is being debated here?

Howard >>>>> Bynum

its not close. Sure Bynum has some things he does better but he has not stayed healthy long term.

Personally, I think it'll be hard to get Dwight without a 3rd team.

GS: Gasol
Orl: Ellis, Bynum
LA: Howard, Reddick

Ind: Bynum, Future LA first
Orl: Hibbert, Paul George, Lance Stephenson, future LA first and seconds
LA: Howard

All I know is that if there is a way to get Howard without moving Gasol/Odom/Kobe, we'd be unstoppable. Indiana may be the key to that.
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