Dwight Discussion: D12 felt marginalized by MDA (989)

The Rock · by **The Rock** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:51 am

^ or we watch the minutes of our best defenders, Kobe and MWP. Ive been concerned about it for a while. Ron is not playing good D these days and neither is Kobe, we need to bring their minutes down 2-3 more minutes so they dont need to worry about conserving energy on end of the court. Ron is older than Pau and hes playing like 35 mins a game

GoldenKnight · by **GoldenKnight** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:19 am

Waiting for the day Dwight tells the media he needs the ball more in the post & it doesn't go enough through him, Kobe is out of control thinking he has the right to jack up 31 shots if he wants.

JohnnyComeLately · by **JohnnyComeLately** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:51 am

Highly unlikely, but I look forward to the day that the team fouled has the option for possession instead of free throws when the fouling team is over the limit. This forces the opposing teams to play defense instead of intentionally-fouling to catch up in the closing moments of a game.

trodgers · by **trodgers** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:52 am

JGC wrote:If you've noticed some shortcomings in my stats, it's possibly because I'm often pulling them out of memory and not staring blankly at a play-by-play or a stat sheet. I might be off by a few percentages.

Can you argue like an adult? Why must I be "staring BLANKLY" at a PBP sheet? Is there something insipid or robotic about my analysis? When you offer empirical analysis, be right. Take a few seconds to figure out whether what you remember is what really happened. I do that. That's why I reproduced the PBP information (after watching or listening on radio to games).

But I won't pull them out of memory unless I'm quite certain it's close. Your conclusions I often find short-sighted though, FWIW, since I find I don't always agree with them.

Empirical claims aren't evaluated by whether or not you agree with them. They're evaluated by looking at the consistency of the argument and the scientific method. You admit that the key test you're using to figure out whether my analysis is short-sighted is whether you agree. I don't view things that way. I disagree with people all the time. I don't suppose that just because we disagree there's a problem with their analysis. The problem could be my own.

It's possible that that is either due to an over reliance on stats (even though I do like stats myself) or just ... denial about what the real problems may be. For instance, I do not think practice is a "good excuse" for our poor play.

It sounds like you're saying the following: TR says X. JGC disagrees with X. So, TR is wrong. TR's mistake might be because of over reliance on stats or denial. That's not a charitable argument, so I'll just suppose that that's not what you're saying. Unfortunately, I don't know what you're saying. You're making empirical claims. Marshal some evidence that isn't simply anecdotal.

I remember hack a dwight around the 3 minute mark when we had a 4 point lead. How do you lose 7 points in 4 mins in the final quarter of a game? Probably a combination of poor offensive execution and poor defense. I also, for the record, recall us being up by 2 pts after D12 hit his final hack a dwight FTs at the 2 min mark. Am I wrong on this? So to say the lead was gone, is, short-sighted or just, an oversight (unless I'm wrong on this).

Why doesn't the next possession count? The point is to trade possessions and get more from yours (Rockets) than the Lakers did from theirs. The very next possession the Rockets hit a shot to tie the game. It's not short-sighted. It's not an oversight. It's simply true. It was, moreover, tied three times DURING the FT-a-thon. In other words, the four-point lead evaporated in the time between 3:18 and 1:38, 100 seconds.

I'm sorry but in a game where we led by 8 after 1 quarter, 13 after 2 quarters and came in to the 4th quarter leading by 10 against what should be an inferior team, that should be enough to put the game away hack a dwight or not.

I agree with you on that point. Our bench surrendered part of the lead: 11 to 7. Our starters let it slip from 7 to 4. Then Hack-a-Dwight let it disappear altogether. Still, despite all that, we had to hit one of three shots(or perhaps two; Jamison's might have come after the buzzer) to win or send it to OT. We failed.

If Dwight can shoot 63% from the FT stripe in hack a dwight situations, then we should still be winning games. Don't you think?

I don't know why you've chosen 63%; so let me say that he didn't shoot 63; he shot 50% (5-10). Now, IF he shoots 63%, would that be enough? I don't know. Think of this argument I've seen on the board:

1. If player X consumes a bunch of possessions, that makes everyone else's O slough off and their D suffer because (presumably) they feel out of the flow.
2. When Hack-a-Dwight occurs, a player consumes nearly every possession.
3. Thus, in Hack-a-Dwight, everyone else's O and D suffer.

So, I don't know whether Howard's shooting 63% is good enough. It's an empirical claim, and we'd have to look at the data in order to evaluate it. Now, if you just mean something like "They're professionals! They have to play through that!" I suppose I agree in some sense. But, as I've told you in previous exchanges, this isn't a video game. These are real human beings and they react in ways that you cannot always predict. The best thing to do is look at their actual performance, see how they react, and come up with a strategy to address the reality, not some armchair thought you have.

escobar8 · by **escobar8** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:26 am

i noticed that most of his ft are to strong...if he cant adjust to it...maybe he should take step back while shooting ft...he doesnt need to shoot it like NVE...but one step would be enough...

and other thing...he should stop or atleast to try to stop blocking shots in the 5th row...
i know it isnt allways posible,but he should try to block to the teammate and not to make highlight block...

wcsoldier81 · by **wcsoldier81** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:36 am

escobar8 wrote:
and other thing...he should stop or atleast to try to stop blocking shots in the 5th row...
i know it isnt allways posible,but he should try to block to the teammate and not to make highlight block...

definetely ... he could have kept the ball in play on the shot he blocked down the stretch ( as many others times but it was obviously an important moment)

432J · by **432J** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:57 am

escobar8 wrote:i noticed that most of his ft are to strong...if he cant adjust to it...maybe he should take step back while shooting ft...he doesnt need to shoot it like NVE...but one step would be enough...

and other thing...he should stop or atleast to try to stop blocking shots in the 5th row...
i know it isnt allways posible,but he should try to block to the teammate and not to make highlight block...

it honestly seems as if dwight could care less about his FT struggles

like he claimed that the loss wasn't because of his FT shooting. i mean, it wasn't the biggest reason we lost but it was a pretty big factor in it. he should be working on nothing else in practice, changing his form, experimenting with new ways to shoot but every game we just see the same miss after miss

Lakerjones · by **Lakerjones** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:43 am

Battle Tested20 wrote:I really surprised that a majority if not all the members on here want D'Antoni to take Dwight out of the game. I know I'm going to get cut or stabbed for saying this but I couldn't agree with MD anymore. You just can't take Dwight out in that 4th quarter when they are doing the Hack-a-Howard. From an emotional and psychologyical stand point it would cripple him.

Kobe said it best in the post game press conference after the Orlando game, instead of looking at this as a problem Dwight and Company should look at this as a huge opportunity to overcome this problem. Will we lose some games because of this and does this Hack-a-Howard suck?? No doubt, but Howard and this team will be better for it come later on in the year.

I'm just really confused why some of our fans on this board think taking Howard out will just fix everything when your it's just trying to cover up the problem and not attack it head on.

For the exact reason that you mention in your post: we are losing games and it's part of the reason. In other words, the strategy is working for opposing coaches, so they are just going to keep doing it and we are going to continue losing games in the fourth quarter stretch. I might agree with you that we should work on it if we had a fully healthy team with Nash and Pau in there. But considering that we are down two of our starters we need to do everything we can to win NOW. Later in the year there might be more wiggle room on this front. But right now whatever we can do to win is paramount.

Look, even at best Howard isn't going to be shooting more than 60% at the line. That's on a great day. He's been in the cellar lately at 47% on the year. TRodgers already went over the adverse effect of generating 1 point per possession vs. the other team. Look no further than the results - two losses in a row in the fourth. It takes D' Antoni's tempo down to nothing and gives the other team control. In other words, it's working, and as long as it continues to do so then other coaches are going to do the same thing.

I still think the best thing to do at this time is to take him out if they go that route. Tackle this problem when you have Nash and Pau back, not now when every possession is vital.

lakerfan2 · by **lakerfan2** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:39 pm

GoldenKnight wrote:Waiting for the day Dwight tells the media he needs the ball more in the post & it doesn't go enough through him, Kobe is out of control thinking he has the right to jack up 31 shots if he wants.

hit some freethrows maybe you'll get the ball.

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:44 pm

It seems like everyone here is surprised by Dwight's Free Throw shooting...... :man3:

Did you not follow the NBA for the last 8 years?

This isn't going to change much if any.

Hopefully he can get back to what ever percent he's going to recover too soon and start rebounding like he has previously however.... His rebounding and giving up rebounds is the NEW thing here.... not the crappy free throw shooting.

As for the "defense".... huh... maybe one player can't stop 5 and DOMINATE as some have advocated.....

trodgers · by **trodgers** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:43 pm

I don't think anyone is surprised by Dwight's FT shooting. I think we're surprised that D'Antoni is allowing him to remain on the court during these spells despite losing the last two games in large part because of the KryptoDwight move.

Others have suggested that they're fine with the move as they trust it will develop his (Dwight's) mettle down the road. I don't know what evidence there is to believe that.

revgen · by **revgen** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:49 pm

^Me neither. This is Dwight's 9th season in the NBA. If he was going to be a good FT shooter, he would have done it by now.

Ariza3 · by **Ariza3** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:06 pm

I dont understand why he doesnt change his form to how he shot the 3 or and jumper he takes. It would be way better.

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:18 pm

^^Not a form issue.... Marion does just about everything from a form standpoint wrong and shoot a very high percentage....

It's in his noggin, and after 8 years it isn't changing much. He may get back to 55% or so but it isn't like we get him a special coach and he's going to start shooting our Technical Free throws....

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:30 pm

Dwight Howard deflects blame from his free-throw shooting after Lakers loss (VIDEO)

The Los Angeles Lakers have lost five of their last seven games, which means they're currently in the midst of their 47th crisis of the still-young season. Their latest defeat, a 107-105 road loss to the Houston Rockets, stung quite sharply. Leading by ten heading into the fourth quarter, the Lakers gave up 34 points in the final 12 minutes. They might have won anyway, though, if Dwight Howard hadn't missed 5-of-10 free throws in the fourth (including a 2-for-7 stretch) as the Rockets resorted to a Hack-a-Howard strategy.

After the game, reporters naturally asked Howard about his struggles. But he chose to place the blame for the loss on the entire team and not his specific problems at the line. Watch his comments above and read them below, as transcribed by Adi Joseph at USA Today:

"We allowed them to get back into the game. It wasn't just about free throws. ... It wasn't just about me missing free thows toward the end. We've got to do a better job defending.
"That's fine. That's fine. People going to say what they're going to say. But at the end of the day, the reason we lost is not my free throws. That didn't lose us the game. Our defense was not there in the fourth quarter." [...]
"Why should he take me out?" Howard asked, indignantly. "Like I said, the more I continue to practice, my free throws are going to fall. But there's other things you can do on the court to help your team. It's not just about the free throws."

Over the past year and change, Howard has acted selfishly and waffled on decisions to the detriment of the Orlando Magic and several potential suitors. In this case, though, he's absolutely correct. For his career, Howard is a 58.4 percent shooter from the free-throw line, including a career-worst 49.1 percent last season. In fact, Howard's 8-of-16 mark in this game (the same percentage he shot in the fourth quarter) actually improved his mark for 2012-13 to 46.7 percent. Missed Dwight Howard free throws is a known factor in any Lakers strategy. Mike D'Antoni can always choose to keep Howard out of games in key moments, of course, but that's a difficult decision if the Lakers center is as important to the team's long-term goals as he seems to be. Phil Jackson never made a habit of benching Shaquille O'Neal in the midst of ugly Hack-a-Shaq stretches, and those teams did just fine.

The problem for the Lakers right now is that they haven't played to expectations in several presumed areas of strength. Interior defense and scoring depend heavily on Howard, and the team's struggles there can be assigned to his less-than-stellar play. Yet those issues are team-wide problems, and Howard can't be responsible for all of them. For one thing, he's not 100-percent healthy — his still-recovering back can only carry so much of the load.
On the other hand, Howard's national reputation is low enough right now that deflecting blame for the team's problems — or, to be more accurate, mentioning larger issues of which he's a big part — won't sit well with many fans and commentators. As a high-profile player who brought very high expectations to Los Angeles, the team's struggles double as his own. When the Lakers fail, Howard does as well, no matter how many free throws he makes.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball- ... --nba.html

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:32 pm

lakerswiz wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^Not a form issue.... Marion does just about everything from a form standpoint wrong and shoot a very high percentage....

It's in his noggin, and after 8 years it isn't changing much. He may get back to 55% or so but it isn't like we get him a special coach and he's going to start shooting our Technical Free throws....

He's bad enough that starting over brand new won't hurt. Telling him to stop what he's doing and completely rearranging his form wouldn't have a negative effect.

At this point nothing would "hurt" would it?....

It isn't the problem anyway..... he said so in the article above.... Seriously, that comment is counter intuitive.... he says he needs to be on the floor regardless of his free throw shooting because he can do other things (presumably he's talking about defense) then he goes on to say that the defense was the issue.....

I don't disagree with either but that statement doesn't seem to fully connect with the reality of the situation.

trodgers · by **trodgers** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:36 pm

So true. He's right that he does many things to help the team otherwise. He yields position on boards and blocks shots into the third row, sending possession back to the opposing team.

That's very cynical. He's an excellent player; if he could hit his FTs, he'd be just a beast. Meanwhile, he should sit in the Foul Time.

Doc Brown · by **Doc Brown** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:53 pm

Dwight seems like a fast, agile, shifty guy. If they want to to do Hack-a-Dwight, he should just treat it like a game of tag, if you can't catch him, you can't foul him. We will just play 4 on 4, while D12 and the opposing player are playing tag in the backcourt.

KBJelleyBean24 · by **KBJelleyBean24** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:00 pm

Doc Brown wrote:Dwight seems like a fast, agile, shifty guy. If they want to to do Hack-a-Dwight, he should just treat it like a game of tag, if you can't catch him, you can't foul him. We will just play 4 on 4, while D12 and the opposing player are playing tag in the backcourt.

If he won't change his free throws to underhand because he thinks it looks girly/silly, what makes you think he'll do THAT :man10:

KBJelleyBean24 · by **KBJelleyBean24** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:04 pm

I never watched any Orlando games and I'm curious to know how they handle the Hug-a-Howard? Did they take him out of games or let him play through it? They were obviously doing well with his poor free throw shooting, although he was shooting them at a decent percentage there.....

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:06 pm

KBJelleyBean24 wrote:I never watched any Orlando games and I'm curious to know how they handle the Hug-a-Howard? Did they take him out of games or let him play through it? They were obviously doing well with his poor free throw shooting, although he was shooting them at a decent percentage there.....

SVG used to sit him on "final possessions" at times. Just like Phil did with Shaq....

jjin28 · by **jjin28** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:28 pm

Hack a shaq / dwight is a legit play. Its part of the rule books and it is a legitimate strategy for the opposing team. The only gripe i have however is that they never ever call the shooting foul when kobe launches a full court shot and tries to time the hack a dwight. Calling a shooting foul when the player shoots and another player gets fouled simulataneoulsy is also part of the rule book. Ref's never call this play, but really should. That would definitely put an end to this strategy from the opposing team.

The Rock · by **The Rock** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:25 pm

Noticed hes passing very well out of the double team. Keep this going

wcsoldier81 · by **wcsoldier81** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:43 pm

Doc Brown wrote:Dwight seems like a fast, agile, shifty guy. If they want to to do Hack-a-Dwight, he should just treat it like a game of tag, if you can't catch him, you can't foul him. We will just play 4 on 4, while D12 and the opposing player are playing tag in the backcourt.

Yep ... and we can quickly attack the basket with the opposite defense being distracted ... when Nash is healthy I think we'll be able to get buckets and Fts on some occasions

lakerfan2 · by **lakerfan2** on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:49 pm

They should make him the inbounder, and run a quick play that gets the ball up the court quickly.

Pretty sure we can get the ball halfcourt with one pass, then a skip pass to someone open.

Dwight Discussion: D12 felt marginalized by MDA (989)

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