Dwight Discussion: Griffin for Dwight?... Naaaa (1011)

CarolinaLakerFan wrote:Somewhere Andrew Bynum is having a nice hearty chuckle.

Yeah this is quite the knee slapper.

dak22 wrote:

last stand wrote:

CarolinaLakerFan wrote:Somewhere Andrew Bynum is having a nice hearty chuckle.

While enjoying a new knee scar added to the collection

Sadly, that scar is nothing compared to the one that's going to be left on both kobe's and howard's resume if the season continues on its current path. Many nba careers have been cut short by injuries; however, not many players can claim they've been on teams that miss the playoffs w/ 4 HOF's.

When the best center+best shooting guard+a HOF pg and pf= lottery team, the disaster is so unprecedented that it's going to leave a mark regardless of what laker fans think. For kobe, it won't remove the fact he's a first ballot HOF, but it's going to sting many fans when critics/haters use it as ammunition in the inevitable kobe vs. peers debate (lebron fans are going to abuse it mercilessly).

For Howard, it's self-explanatory since he hasn't won a ring yet.

last stand wrote:Howard will be a laker next season, back to 100% or close to it and all of you will be flip flopping

2009- made the finals with Orlando.
2010- loss to the Celtics in the ECF.
2011- loss in the first round to Atlanta despite being both the higher seed and sweeping them last season.
2012- didn't even play in the first round.
2013- on track to be on the 6th lakers team that misses the playoffs.

Notice a pattern? At this rate, we will be flip flopping alright: when commisioner Silver announces that with the first pick of the 2014 NBA draft, the los angeles lakers select ANDREW WIGGINS from the University of ______ and he carries the lakers for the next decade to a level Howard can only dream, especially with Howard's so called "post game".

If Drew is laughing, I wouldn't be surprised. It would be just like him to be laughing at this situation and not paying attention to his own dire situation and the idea that he may suffer the same fate as Greg Oden. The Lakers troubles should be the last thing on his mind, but then again, this is Bynum we're talking about. Historically, his mind has never been in the right place.

And though these guys deserve the criticism, Kobe will still go down as one of the best players of all time regardless of this season. Bynum will be labeled as a bust if he doesn't have a phenomenal comeback from his chronic knee issues. Howard, well, he needs an attitude adjustment.

What I don't get is the idea that just because there are some future HOF players on this team, that it's automatic that they should be winning - Kobe is the only HOF player still playing close to a level that might be considered HOF worthy. The others are well past those days, and one is still yet to show he's an all time great. I personally think there are only two true HOF's on this team (so far) and their best days are behind them, so the fact that they're headed to the HOF is mostly irrelevant at the moment.

432J wrote:

Weezy wrote:Not popular, but I would trade Dwight while he still has value. It's going to be tough enough because a team will risk him not re-signing, but throw in injured too and dang, not good.

i don't get why anyone would be against trading him now. he's clearly unhappy and didn't want to play for LA in the first place, so why the hell would he stick around when things are a complete disaster? that and the fact that for the most part he's played like crap should get the FO thinking trade

get something in return for him now instead of letting him walk away for nothing

I don't know that anyone knows that he didn't want to be here in the first place. I don't know that anyone knows for sure what he wants, wanted, will want. He's Dwight, and his wants change daily. Even if he shows to be mentally weak, it still doesn't make sense to trade him unless he clearly states his intention to leave - which he would never do. You can't judge his play yet with him recovering this season, not when you're planning out the next 8-10 years of the franchise.

escobar8 wrote:

last stand wrote:Howard will be a laker next season, back to 100% or close to it and all of you will be flip flopping

+1...

you are giving up on him already...while gasol has 9 lives like cat....
just let him get healthy and lets make more balanced roster next year...and i am sure dwight will prove he is best C and top 5 player in the league...

Pau's got 2 rings buddy ..

Heard on Colin Cowherd this morning that Dwight has the 2nd most touches of any center in the NBA.

I'm trying to find that info, as I'm sure that if they count defensive rebounds that may have something to do with it.

Still, a pretty damning stat based on popular opinion among Howard supporters.

Weezy wrote:Not popular, but I would trade Dwight while he still has value. It's going to be tough enough because a team will risk him not re-signing, but throw in injured too and dang, not good.

At this point, we need to consider it.

Herm24 wrote:He's nothing more than a super athletic Kwame when you think about it .. His post game is horrid .. Can't seal or get position .. He's a great defensive player but he'll never be considered one of the greats when it comes to centers .. His ceiling when you think about potential greatness is Alonzo Mourning .. That's pretty sad when you consider he's an athletic freak and the center position is obsolete

Kwame's still a better post defender... all of Dwights blocks are from the weak side. I have not been impressed, and honestly, we're too SMALL out there even with him.

I miss a healthy Andrew Bynum

Ludachris wrote:

dak22 wrote:

last stand wrote:

CarolinaLakerFan wrote:Somewhere Andrew Bynum is having a nice hearty chuckle.

While enjoying a new knee scar added to the collection

Sadly, that scar is nothing compared to the one that's going to be left on both kobe's and howard's resume if the season continues on its current path. Many nba careers have been cut short by injuries; however, not many players can claim they've been on teams that miss the playoffs w/ 4 HOF's.

When the best center+best shooting guard+a HOF pg and pf= lottery team, the disaster is so unprecedented that it's going to leave a mark regardless of what laker fans think. For kobe, it won't remove the fact he's a first ballot HOF, but it's going to sting many fans when critics/haters use it as ammunition in the inevitable kobe vs. peers debate (lebron fans are going to abuse it mercilessly).

For Howard, it's self-explanatory since he hasn't won a ring yet.

last stand wrote:Howard will be a laker next season, back to 100% or close to it and all of you will be flip flopping

2009- made the finals with Orlando.
2010- loss to the Celtics in the ECF.
2011- loss in the first round to Atlanta despite being both the higher seed and sweeping them last season.
2012- didn't even play in the first round.
2013- on track to be on the 6th lakers team that misses the playoffs.

Notice a pattern? At this rate, we will be flip flopping alright: when commisioner Silver announces that with the first pick of the 2014 NBA draft, the los angeles lakers select ANDREW WIGGINS from the University of ______ and he carries the lakers for the next decade to a level Howard can only dream, especially with Howard's so called "post game".

If Drew is laughing, I wouldn't be surprised. It would be just like him to be laughing at this situation and not paying attention to his own dire situation and the idea that he may suffer the same fate as Greg Oden. The Lakers troubles should be the last thing on his mind, but then again, this is Bynum we're talking about. Historically, his mind has never been in the right place.

And though these guys deserve the criticism, Kobe will still go down as one of the best players of all time regardless of this season. Bynum will be labeled as a bust if he doesn't have a phenomenal comeback from his chronic knee issues. Howard, well, he needs an attitude adjustment.

What I don't get is the idea that just because there are some future HOF players on this team, that it's automatic that they should be winning - Kobe is the only HOF player still playing close to a level that might be considered HOF worthy. The others are well past those days, and one is still yet to show he's an all time great. I personally think there are only two true HOF's on this team (so far) and their best days are behind them, so the fact that they're headed to the HOF is mostly irrelevant at the moment.

So I take it you missed his 2 previous "phenominal" comebacks from much more serious knee injuries? You know, how he went on to earn his first trip to the ASG last year?

Posts like yours truly make me think so many of you Bynum haters never watched him play, or only started paying attention last year.

Psychobroker wrote:I miss a healthy Andrew Bynum

You're probably not going to see that any time soon. And he's still too slow for these young, athletic teams. Dwight is better in this respect. He can get back on defense faster.

Psychobroker wrote:
So I take it you missed his 2 previous "phenominal" comebacks from much more serious knee injuries? You know, how he went on to earn his first trip to the ASG last year?

Posts like yours truly make me think so many of you Bynum haters never watched him play, or only started paying attention last year.

I think that the people who watched his entire career are the ones that hate him the most.

You said it perfectly, his FIRST ASG. Should be his 4th-5th. Easily.

You can say how great he COULD be IF he was healthy more often or IF he was more mature, but those are just guesses.

He is what he is.

karacha wrote:

Psychobroker wrote:I miss a healthy Andrew Bynum

You're probably not going to see that any time soon. And he's still too slow for these young, athletic teams. Dwight is better in this respect. He can get back on defense faster.

Exactly.

Look, Howard has a long way to go before he's the man he was before. Other players know it, our team knows it, it seems we as fans and he as a player are the only ones who don't know it.

My opinion as of today is he'll sign here again this summer. Bresnahan said on the radio he thinks he'll leave, but I've never heard of a guy walking away from a difference of 30 million in contracts alone, let alone the city of LA, let alone the endorsement opportunities here. And I'm fine with that.

If he re-signs and he gets healthy again, he can come back next season and be dominant again and start being the player we (and I'm sure he) expect him to be. If he still doen't like it here, well he's still the best Center in the game so someone will take him.

And if he walks this summer, oh freaking well. We still should get rid of Gasol's 19 million for smaller contracts and get this rebuild started as soon as possible.

I miss a healthy in shape Lamar .. He'd be perfect for this team right now

Herm24 wrote:I miss a healthy in shape Lamar .. He'd be perfect for this team right now

You forgot to say motivated/focused as well, but I agree.

Psychobroker wrote:

Ludachris wrote:

dak22 wrote:

last stand wrote:

CarolinaLakerFan wrote:Somewhere Andrew Bynum is having a nice hearty chuckle.

While enjoying a new knee scar added to the collection

Sadly, that scar is nothing compared to the one that's going to be left on both kobe's and howard's resume if the season continues on its current path. Many nba careers have been cut short by injuries; however, not many players can claim they've been on teams that miss the playoffs w/ 4 HOF's.

When the best center+best shooting guard+a HOF pg and pf= lottery team, the disaster is so unprecedented that it's going to leave a mark regardless of what laker fans think. For kobe, it won't remove the fact he's a first ballot HOF, but it's going to sting many fans when critics/haters use it as ammunition in the inevitable kobe vs. peers debate (lebron fans are going to abuse it mercilessly).

For Howard, it's self-explanatory since he hasn't won a ring yet.

last stand wrote:Howard will be a laker next season, back to 100% or close to it and all of you will be flip flopping

2009- made the finals with Orlando.
2010- loss to the Celtics in the ECF.
2011- loss in the first round to Atlanta despite being both the higher seed and sweeping them last season.
2012- didn't even play in the first round.
2013- on track to be on the 6th lakers team that misses the playoffs.

Notice a pattern? At this rate, we will be flip flopping alright: when commisioner Silver announces that with the first pick of the 2014 NBA draft, the los angeles lakers select ANDREW WIGGINS from the University of ______ and he carries the lakers for the next decade to a level Howard can only dream, especially with Howard's so called "post game".

If Drew is laughing, I wouldn't be surprised. It would be just like him to be laughing at this situation and not paying attention to his own dire situation and the idea that he may suffer the same fate as Greg Oden. The Lakers troubles should be the last thing on his mind, but then again, this is Bynum we're talking about. Historically, his mind has never been in the right place.

And though these guys deserve the criticism, Kobe will still go down as one of the best players of all time regardless of this season. Bynum will be labeled as a bust if he doesn't have a phenomenal comeback from his chronic knee issues. Howard, well, he needs an attitude adjustment.

What I don't get is the idea that just because there are some future HOF players on this team, that it's automatic that they should be winning - Kobe is the only HOF player still playing close to a level that might be considered HOF worthy. The others are well past those days, and one is still yet to show he's an all time great. I personally think there are only two true HOF's on this team (so far) and their best days are behind them, so the fact that they're headed to the HOF is mostly irrelevant at the moment.

So I take it you missed his 2 previous "phenominal" comebacks from much more serious knee injuries? You know, how he went on to earn his first trip to the ASG last year?

Posts like yours truly make me think so many of you Bynum haters never watched him play, or only started paying attention last year.

I'm not a Bynum hater. I was one of the guys talking about how much better his post play was (using past tense since I don't know that he'll even come back) and how much better he was offensively skill-wise. My biggest fear with Bynum was always that he would end up being another Oden, or worse, slightly healthier than Oden, sucking up a big portion of the salary cap and only playing 40-50 games per season for years. I think he played great last year, but his recent injury solidifies my belief that it was the best move for the Lakers.

I loved watching him play, when he played. I remember how tough he was battling it out against Boston in the Finals, especially that first trip. But Howard is still the safer bet, even if he only plays to the level he's at right now, which nobody expects. He will likely be quite a bit more healthy later in the season and more-so next season. Whether or not he stays, well, who knows.

I truly hope Bynum can get healthy and have a nice career. And I hope he matures. I don't wish anything bad on him. I just don't think his knees are going to cooperate, and even if he does come back again, his career is likely going to be cut in half due to what he's already gone through up to this point.

Now, back to Howard - wonder how long he'll be out with this shoulder this time. I guess at least now Nash will get a nice dose of Gasol, like he wanted.

phoenixrisingla wrote:

Psychobroker wrote:
So I take it you missed his 2 previous "phenominal" comebacks from much more serious knee injuries? You know, how he went on to earn his first trip to the ASG last year?

Posts like yours truly make me think so many of you Bynum haters never watched him play, or only started paying attention last year.

I think that the people who watched his entire career are the ones that hate him the most.

You said it perfectly, his FIRST ASG. Should be his 4th-5th. Easily.

You can say how great he COULD be IF he was healthy more often or IF he was more mature, but those are just guesses.

He is what he is.

So it's Bynum's fault that he suffered serious injuries (by his teammates), and when he was healthy, was underused in the post (3rd option even though >55% FG) until last year, but it's NOT Dwight's fault that HE's hurt (again), receives the 2nd most touches among centers in the league but complains about shots AND can't hit better than 50% from the FT line?

Double-standard much?

Of course, it's NEITHER of their fault for getting hurt, but you're criticism of Bynum is tied to his ASG appearances (or lack thereof), when injuries and coaching decisions are/were out of his control? Would Dwight Howard have earned more trips to the ASG under the same conditions (injuries, 3rd option, etc)? No, I doubt it.

Bynum showed great heart and perseverance overcoming the injuries, Kobe's summer 2007 rant, the huge microscope he was under, etc. Dwight has always wilted - going into passive/aggressive mode - his entire career.

karacha wrote:

Psychobroker wrote:I miss a healthy Andrew Bynum

You're probably not going to see that any time soon. And he's still too slow for these young, athletic teams. Dwight is better in this respect. He can get back on defense faster.

This is the conventional wisdom.... and I agree with it for the most part. WTS.... our defense is by far worse than at any time over the last few years.... so this may be overstated as a component of a good defense.

Howard is a great help defender, but as is the case with most of his game, the fundamentals of blocking out, man on man defense positioning and even free throw rebounding is not nearly living up to the hype of his awards.....

^D12's man 2 man defense on the perimeter is even worse than Bynum's. Bynum didn't have a lot of lateral speed, but he at least knew how to bend his knees and get himself into a defensive stance when he did guard perimeter bigs. D12 is pretty much straight-legged when he guards perimeter bigs. They just blow by him.

revgen wrote:^D12's man 2 man defense on the perimeter is even worse than Bynum's. Bynum didn't have a lot of lateral speed, but he at least knew how to bend his knees and get himself into a defensive stance when he did guard perimeter bigs. D12 is pretty much straight-legged when he guards perimeter bigs. They just blow by him.

that why Lopez has beastly #'s during Bynum tenure here? and I recall plenty of times when Howard was in Orl and he just blew by Bynum and he's no perimiter threat, care to explain that one?

phoenixrisingla wrote:Heard on Colin Cowherd this morning that Dwight has the 2nd most touches of any center in the NBA.

I'm trying to find that info, as I'm sure that if they count defensive rebounds that may have something to do with it.

Still, a pretty damning stat based on popular opinion among Howard supporters.

Ireland mentioned this yesterday, Al Jefferson is 1st and Dwight is 2nd in touches

Psychobroker wrote:

phoenixrisingla wrote:

Psychobroker wrote:
So I take it you missed his 2 previous "phenominal" comebacks from much more serious knee injuries? You know, how he went on to earn his first trip to the ASG last year?

Posts like yours truly make me think so many of you Bynum haters never watched him play, or only started paying attention last year.

I think that the people who watched his entire career are the ones that hate him the most.

You said it perfectly, his FIRST ASG. Should be his 4th-5th. Easily.

You can say how great he COULD be IF he was healthy more often or IF he was more mature, but those are just guesses.

He is what he is.

So it's Bynum's fault that he suffered serious injuries (by his teammates), and when he was healthy, was underused in the post (3rd option even though >55% FG) until last year, but it's NOT Dwight's fault that HE's hurt (again), receives the 2nd most touches among centers in the league but complains about shots AND can't hit better than 50% from the FT line?

Double-standard much?

Of course, it's NEITHER of their fault for getting hurt, but you're criticism of Bynum is tied to his ASG appearances (or lack thereof), when injuries and coaching decisions are/were out of his control? Would Dwight Howard have earned more trips to the ASG under the same conditions (injuries, 3rd option, etc)? No, I doubt it.

Bynum showed great heart and perseverance overcoming the injuries, Kobe's summer 2007 rant, the huge microscope he was under, etc. Dwight has always wilted - going into passive/aggressive mode - his entire career.

Hey Psycho, you make some good points.

But again, I really feel like you're focusing on the what if's. I'm not saying that the injuries were Bynum's fault (the attitude certainly was), but at the end of the day he's either producing or not.

If he's only playing at 100% for a third (or less) of his career, I could care less who is at fault. We just need results.

Does that make any sense?

Not this again

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:^D12's man 2 man defense on the perimeter is even worse than Bynum's. Bynum didn't have a lot of lateral speed, but he at least knew how to bend his knees and get himself into a defensive stance when he did guard perimeter bigs. D12 is pretty much straight-legged when he guards perimeter bigs. They just blow by him.

hat why Lopez has beastly #'s during Bynum tenure here? and I recall plenty of times when Howard was in Orl and he just blew by Bynum and he's no perimiter threat, care to explain that one?

As I've noted above, Bynum's lateral quickness isn't great. For him to have a decent night defensively on the perimeter, he needs to be able to anticipate what the player is going to do. He and Lopez only played against each other 1 time in their entire career. Lopez had the better night.

Howard is impossible for Bynum to guard because he has great combination of speed and strength when he's 100%. In the past, Bynum woud just back off and make him shoot a J. Howard countered by developing a Duncanesque bank shot.

revgen wrote:

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:^D12's man 2 man defense on the perimeter is even worse than Bynum's. Bynum didn't have a lot of lateral speed, but he at least knew how to bend his knees and get himself into a defensive stance when he did guard perimeter bigs. D12 is pretty much straight-legged when he guards perimeter bigs. They just blow by him.

that why Lopez beasted on Bynum too?

As I've noted above, Bynum's lateral quickness isn't great. For him to have a decent night defensively on the perimeter, he needs to be able to anticipate what the player is going to do. He and Lopez only played against each other 1 time in their entire career. Lopez had the better night.

1.25.08 @ Los Angles Lakers
Lopez: 17 points, 6-15 FG, 5-6 FT, 10 rebounds, 3 blocks, 3 PF, 39 minutes
Bynum: 15 points, 6-9 FG, 3-6 FT, 6 rebounds, 1 block, 5 PF, 28 minutes

11.29.09 @ Los Angeles Lakers
Lopez: 26 points, 8-15 FG, 10-12 FT, 12 rebounds, 0 blocks, 3 PF, 35 minutes
Bynum: 8 points, 2-5 FG, 4-6 FT, 6 rebounds, 5 blocks, 4 PF, 24.5 minutes

12.19.09 @ New Jersey Nets
Lopez: 18 points, 6-16 FG, 6-7 FT, 11 rebounds, 2 blocks, 2 PF, 40 minutes
Bynum: 4 points, 1-3 FG, 2-2 FT, 3 rebounds, 0 blocks, 6 PF, 11 minutes

1.14.11 @ Los Angeles Lakers
Lopez: 35 points, 13-19 FG, 9-11 FT, 6 rebounds, 1 block, 3 PF, 37.5 minutes
Bynum: 2 points, 1-5 FG, 0-0 FT, 5 rebounds, 2 blocks, 5 PF, 22 minutes

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:

khmrP wrote:

revgen wrote:^D12's man 2 man defense on the perimeter is even worse than Bynum's. Bynum didn't have a lot of lateral speed, but he at least knew how to bend his knees and get himself into a defensive stance when he did guard perimeter bigs. D12 is pretty much straight-legged when he guards perimeter bigs. They just blow by him.

that why Lopez beasted on Bynum too?

As I've noted above, Bynum's lateral quickness isn't great. For him to have a decent night defensively on the perimeter, he needs to be able to anticipate what the player is going to do. He and Lopez only played against each other 1 time in their entire career. Lopez had the better night.

1.25.08 @ Los Angles Lakers
Lopez: 17 points, 6-15 FG, 5-6 FT, 10 rebounds, 3 blocks, 3 PF, 39 minutes
Bynum: 15 points, 6-9 FG, 3-6 FT, 6 rebounds, 1 block, 5 PF, 28 minutes

11.29.09 @ Los Angeles Lakers
Lopez: 26 points, 8-15 FG, 10-12 FT, 12 rebounds, 0 blocks, 3 PF, 35 minutes
Bynum: 8 points, 2-5 FG, 4-6 FT, 6 rebounds, 5 blocks, 4 PF, 24.5 minutes

12.19.09 @ New Jersey Nets
Lopez: 18 points, 6-16 FG, 6-7 FT, 11 rebounds, 2 blocks, 2 PF, 40 minutes
Bynum: 4 points, 1-3 FG, 2-2 FT, 3 rebounds, 0 blocks, 6 PF, 11 minutes

1.14.11 @ Los Angeles Lakers
Lopez: 35 points, 13-19 FG, 9-11 FT, 6 rebounds, 1 block, 3 PF, 37.5 minutes
Bynum: 2 points, 1-5 FG, 0-0 FT, 5 rebounds, 2 blocks, 5 PF, 22 minutes

Interesting, NBA.com, only listed the 2010-2011 season.

http://www.nba.com/advancedstats/player ... 1;season=r

^^^ well rev, even with our disagreement bout these 2 bigs, one thing is for sure, the brakedown all starts from the perimiter players, they put our bigs in seriously bad spots because once the big helps NO ONE helps them. Even though that funneling D wasn't the greatest D ever, it least had its moments but I would sincerely doubt Antoni is very bright in that dept. Like in 06 when Kobe/Kwame/Odom destroyed Pho interior D.