D12 Discussion: Dwightmare over! (1139)

Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:17 pm

abeer3 wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
SpencerHarrison wrote:Is Dwight on a max deal worth it, giving you double digit points and rebounds per game?


Interesting question.....David Lee does it with fitting into a system and with constant effort and no drama...... Is he a max player?

Dwight may bring more defense but the distraction is not worth it IMO under the new CBA.... A team can really afford just one max deal and put a complete team on the floor. I'd spend a max slot elsewhere


but where? not many guys are leaving their franchises, and nobody better than dwight is projected to do so in the next few years. i'd pay max for dwight, even this version, and then i'd rebuild to his strengths.

it would be different if say, lebron, were a viable option. or even kyrie irving. but kevin love? josh smith? these guys are guys that will fetch high dollar salaries and are likely to change teams. 70% dwight is worth more than them, imo. but again, the lakers have to commit to playing to his strengths. they haven't done that yet.

and like i've said many times: he needs to start holding up his end of the bargain before he squawks about anything.


Agreed on the part about getting another star here..... But a max deal with no other star isn't going to cut it either.....we'll be decent but not a contender.... We need to develop talent....to do that we need to get some first. Something we've neglected for 15 years
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby abeer3 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:17 pm

Weezy wrote:75% is a number Dwight himself threw out there, not sure I even believe him. Also, Durant is good next to Westbrook? Be serious, he's good period, that's a bad comparison. And ok we'll go with that, what's Dwight's excuse for not looking good next to Kobe, who is better than Westbrook? Dwight's not alike, Kobe IS elite, and Dwight looks bad with him. In fact Dwight has never played with an elite guy next to him, and if this is the best example of that it's a a disaster, Kobe is an all time great, you can't really ask for a more elite guy next to him. That's not even mentioning Nash, one of the best passers of all time, you can't play your best next to those 2, I don't want you as my guy going forward. Apparently Dwight can only do well surrounded by shooters and a PG to spoon feed him.


on paper, kobe is the ideal running mate for dwight. i think there are lots of reasons why things haven't worked out to this point; dwight's health and his inability to deal with it gracefully have certainly been part of it. but having a coach who doesn't truly want to work with him and one of the key cogs on the team being a pretty poor fit next to him hasn't helped.

dwight has disappointed me in many ways, but if the lakers want to remain viable, he's their only path, imo. for better or worse.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby SpencerHarrison on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:20 pm

abeer3 wrote:
Weezy wrote:75% is a number Dwight himself threw out there, not sure I even believe him. Also, Durant is good next to Westbrook? Be serious, he's good period, that's a bad comparison. And ok we'll go with that, what's Dwight's excuse for not looking good next to Kobe, who is better than Westbrook? Dwight's not alike, Kobe IS elite, and Dwight looks bad with him. In fact Dwight has never played with an elite guy next to him, and if this is the best example of that it's a a disaster, Kobe is an all time great, you can't really ask for a more elite guy next to him. That's not even mentioning Nash, one of the best passers of all time, you can't play your best next to those 2, I don't want you as my guy going forward. Apparently Dwight can only do well surrounded by shooters and a PG to spoon feed him.


on paper, kobe is the ideal running mate for dwight. i think there are lots of reasons why things haven't worked out to this point; dwight's health and his inability to deal with it gracefully have certainly been part of it. but having a coach who doesn't truly want to work with him and one of the key cogs on the team being a pretty poor fit next to him hasn't helped.

dwight has disappointed me in many ways, but if the lakers want to remain viable, he's their only path, imo. for better or worse.


I could not disagree more. I would sooner build a young, angry squad around Hill and Clark than bet on Dwight to raise up the trophy. He is fools gold.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby abeer3 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:23 pm

Rooscooter wrote:Agreed on the part about getting another star here..... But a max deal with no other star isn't going to cut it either.....we'll be decent but not a contender.... We need to develop talent....to do that we need to get some first. Something we've neglected for 15 years


oh, i hear you. but i consider dwight a bird in the hand. the problem with a lakers rebuild is that kobe's still viable, so what are you supposed to do with that? i'd like to get some young talent in la, but i'm not sure how it happens until kobe and pau's giant deals are off the books. when that happens, i want somebody in place, else the lakers could look like the post-mj bulls, overpaying eddie robinsons to try and claw back to mediocrity.

i wish dwight was more mature and healthier, but i just don't see a better alternative to even this version.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby SpencerHarrison on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:26 pm

abeer3 wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:Agreed on the part about getting another star here..... But a max deal with no other star isn't going to cut it either.....we'll be decent but not a contender.... We need to develop talent....to do that we need to get some first. Something we've neglected for 15 years


oh, i hear you. but i consider dwight a bird in the hand. the problem with a lakers rebuild is that kobe's still viable, so what are you supposed to do with that? i'd like to get some young talent in la, but i'm not sure how it happens until kobe and pau's giant deals are off the books. when that happens, i want somebody in place, else the lakers could look like the post-mj bulls, overpaying eddie robinsons to try and claw back to mediocrity.

i wish dwight was more mature and healthier, but i just don't see a better alternative to even this version.



My point is, we're going to be hurting post Kobe either way. Dwight ain't the guy. Chris Paul could have been. But it is what it is, and Howard = mediocrity. I would rather spend some years developing a young core, than try and double down with D12.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby abeer3 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:28 pm

SpencerHarrison wrote:I could not disagree more. I would sooner build a young, angry squad around Hill and Clark than bet on Dwight to raise up the trophy. He is fools gold.


you want to win 7 games next year?

and people said lebron would never hoist a trophy. people said kobe would never get one without shaq. things have a way of changing for top level players. maybe dwight's done being that guy, but i certainly wouldn't bet against it with a backup plan of hill, clark, and hustle.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby SpencerHarrison on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:31 pm

abeer3 wrote:
SpencerHarrison wrote:I could not disagree more. I would sooner build a young, angry squad around Hill and Clark than bet on Dwight to raise up the trophy. He is fools gold.


you want to win 7 games next year?

and people said lebron would never hoist a trophy. people said kobe would never get one without shaq. things have a way of changing for top level players. maybe dwight's done being that guy, but i certainly wouldn't bet against it with a backup plan of hill, clark, and hustle.


But just look at the shape of your argument - you are inherently comparing Dwight with Kobe and Lebron. Sure, both had the haters. But Dwight is absolutely NOT on the same level as those two players even with a bionic back and brain transplant. And yes, I would rather have a down year, clean books and young players than a 2nd round exit with a max Dwight contract. He's not our guy. We might not find our guy for a few more years, but I'd rather not have Mitch hamstrung with bloated paychecks being sent to a spineless manchild.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby Lakerjones on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:31 pm

I'm not going to lie. I'm concerned about this guy. Very concerned. We were playing better with Pau at Center than now with Howard. And I'm not sure that's going to change any time soon.

Dwight needs to stop whining and playing like a female dog. I don't mean to be completely harsh, but he needs to start bringing it stronger on the court and off. Man up. Stop blaming others. Act like you want to be here or good riddance. This is the Lakers. We're bigger than you.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:32 pm

SpencerHarrison wrote:
abeer3 wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:Agreed on the part about getting another star here..... But a max deal with no other star isn't going to cut it either.....we'll be decent but not a contender.... We need to develop talent....to do that we need to get some first. Something we've neglected for 15 years


oh, i hear you. but i consider dwight a bird in the hand. the problem with a lakers rebuild is that kobe's still viable, so what are you supposed to do with that? i'd like to get some young talent in la, but i'm not sure how it happens until kobe and pau's giant deals are off the books. when that happens, i want somebody in place, else the lakers could look like the post-mj bulls, overpaying eddie robinsons to try and claw back to mediocrity.

i wish dwight was more mature and healthier, but i just don't see a better alternative to even this version.



My point is, we're going to be hurting post Kobe either way. Dwight ain't the guy. Chris Paul could have been. But it is what it is, and Howard = mediocrity. I would rather spend some years developing a young core, than try and double down with D12.


Whoops!.... You had me until you put Paul in there........ :man10: He's as successful as Howard at "leading" and just as one dimensional..... When teams gameplan for a 7 game series Paul is not nearly as effective... Pop and SA showed that last year.... Finding a player that is complete and a leader is what we need.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby abeer3 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:32 pm

SpencerHarrison wrote:My point is, we're going to be hurting post Kobe either way. Dwight ain't the guy. Chris Paul could have been. But it is what it is, and Howard = mediocrity. I would rather spend some years developing a young core, than try and double down with D12.


i'm not sure paul's the guy, either, with his knees. my point is that you can do both (keep dwight and build a young team). he took a team to the finals without a second max level player, and with the lakers' lure as a FA destination, i think you could easily field a young team that works with his skillset again without having to strangle the cap on another max deal.

put it this way: if dwight's not a max player, then there are only about 5-6 in the league, and the lakers don't have a shot at any of them. i don't see the team going for a long rebuilding period and piling up lotto picks to try and draft the next superstar.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby lakersyunowin on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:34 pm

abeer3 wrote:
SpencerHarrison wrote:I could not disagree more. I would sooner build a young, angry squad around Hill and Clark than bet on Dwight to raise up the trophy. He is fools gold.


you want to win 7 games next year?

and people said lebron would never hoist a trophy. people said kobe would never get one without shaq. things have a way of changing for top level players. maybe dwight's done being that guy, but i certainly wouldn't bet against it with a backup plan of hill, clark, and hustle.

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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby karacha on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:35 pm

SpencerHarrison wrote:Chris Paul could have been.


Until he starts having knee problems again.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby abeer3 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:35 pm

SpencerHarrison wrote:But just look at the shape of your argument - you are inherently comparing Dwight with Kobe and Lebron. Sure, both had the haters. But Dwight is absolutely NOT on the same level as those two players even with a bionic back and brain transplant. And yes, I would rather have a down year, clean books and young players than a 2nd round exit with a max Dwight contract. He's not our guy. We might not find our guy for a few more years, but I'd rather not have Mitch hamstrung with bloated paychecks being sent to a spineless manchild.


before the injury, i would have put him up there.

again, i'd just like someone to tell me what the alternative plan would be if dwight were allowed to walk. just be bad and hope for luck in the lottery? seems like a bad plan to me, and one that the lakers FO would probably avoid. i think if la were a small market squad without its history, maybe that would be a more sensible option.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby SpencerHarrison on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:36 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
SpencerHarrison wrote:
abeer3 wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:Agreed on the part about getting another star here..... But a max deal with no other star isn't going to cut it either.....we'll be decent but not a contender.... We need to develop talent....to do that we need to get some first. Something we've neglected for 15 years


oh, i hear you. but i consider dwight a bird in the hand. the problem with a lakers rebuild is that kobe's still viable, so what are you supposed to do with that? i'd like to get some young talent in la, but i'm not sure how it happens until kobe and pau's giant deals are off the books. when that happens, i want somebody in place, else the lakers could look like the post-mj bulls, overpaying eddie robinsons to try and claw back to mediocrity.

i wish dwight was more mature and healthier, but i just don't see a better alternative to even this version.



My point is, we're going to be hurting post Kobe either way. Dwight ain't the guy. Chris Paul could have been. But it is what it is, and Howard = mediocrity. I would rather spend some years developing a young core, than try and double down with D12.


Whoops!.... You had me until you put Paul in there........ :man10: He's as successful as Howard at "leading" and just as one dimensional..... When teams gameplan for a 7 game series Paul is not nearly as effective... Pop and SA showed that last year.... Finding a player that is complete and a leader is what we need.


Agreed. And i'm more than happy to wait rather than scrape up second or third best (or worse) in the short term.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby The Rock on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:44 pm

Like JVG said Dwight has relied heavily on athleticism all these years and when his body is failing him like it is this year hes' having a hard time coming to terms with how to adjust. He needs to get stronger mentally. Stop being defensive. Just own up to mistakes it doesnt make you any less of a human or any less of an accomplished all star. Someone brought this up in the thread earlier I dont think he sees us making the playoffs so hes putting in the minimum effort while not jeopardizing his health & get that contract and get set for next year. He has 10 more years in this league hes not urgent about this year. Think about 07-08 Heat season, Wade sucked SO BAD. His team lost like 21 out of 22 at one point I think and he was right in the middle of those games sleepwalking through games. I know I proposed earlier that we should trade him but I was wrong. We need to be patient with this guy, he does present a bright future with his potential and his durability, he just needs to get himself physically and mentally healthy. Unfortunately it doesnt look like hes willing to do that for this year
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby CarolinaLakerFan on Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:59 pm

Trade D12 and MWP to Brooklyn for Lopez, Wallace and Marshawn Brooks and be done with it. It's obvious he doesn't want to be here.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby lakersin4 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:46 pm

CarolinaLakerFan wrote:Trade D12 and MWP to Brooklyn for Lopez, Wallace and Marshawn Brooks and be done with it. It's obvious he doesn't want to be here.

I don't think he knows what he wants. Noone can be 100% sure what he's going to do. He doesn't look happy, but would you be happy at 75% when you're using to being the man? How about joining an allstar team & letting chemistry problems & injuries cause you to miss the playoffs? Dwight has plenty of reasons to be unhappy. Winning cures all.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby last stand on Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:54 pm

CarolinaLakerFan wrote:Trade D12 and MWP to Brooklyn for Lopez, Wallace and Marshawn Brooks and be done with it. It's obvious he doesn't want to be here.


great idea. lets trade dwight for 2 ok players with ridiculous contracts and a young player who's taken a massive dip in his 2nd year.

sounds like a great idea. where do i sign up.

while we're at it lets trade kobe for joe johnson. might as well stockpile ludicrous contracts in exchange for worse players.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby GoldenKnight on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:18 am

Dwight tried but he's not 100% and it showed. Today there really were a ton of long rebounds which the guards should have gotten. But I also saw an instance where Chalmers got his own rebound with Howard next to him and layed it back in. That should not happen. Dwight is playing hard, but with no heart it seems.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby Finwë on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:50 am

last stand wrote:
CarolinaLakerFan wrote:Trade D12 and MWP to Brooklyn for Lopez, Wallace and Marshawn Brooks and be done with it. It's obvious he doesn't want to be here.


great idea. lets trade dwight for 2 ok players with ridiculous contracts and a young player who's taken a massive dip in his 2nd year.

sounds like a great idea. where do i sign up.

while we're at it lets trade kobe for joe johnson. might as well stockpile ludicrous contracts in exchange for worse players.

How about, assuming the FO believes he's gonna walk, Howard to POR for Aldridge and Batum? Add MWP and maybe get Wes Matthews back.
Nash/Blake
Kobe/Wes Matthews
Batum/Clark
Aldridge/Jamison
Pau/Hill

Offensively it seems the pieces would fit much better. I don't know about our D though.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby lakersin4 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:06 am

Finwë wrote:
last stand wrote:
CarolinaLakerFan wrote:Trade D12 and MWP to Brooklyn for Lopez, Wallace and Marshawn Brooks and be done with it. It's obvious he doesn't want to be here.


great idea. lets trade dwight for 2 ok players with ridiculous contracts and a young player who's taken a massive dip in his 2nd year.

sounds like a great idea. where do i sign up.

while we're at it lets trade kobe for joe johnson. might as well stockpile ludicrous contracts in exchange for worse players.

How about, assuming the FO believes he's gonna walk, Howard to POR for Aldridge and Batum? Add MWP and maybe get Wes Matthews back.
Nash/Blake
Kobe/Wes Matthews
Batum/Clark
Aldridge/Jamison
Pau/Hill

Offensively it seems the pieces would fit much better. I don't know about our D though.

I agree this is a great deal for Dwight if we choose to go that route. George/Hibbert + some good filler would be good too. Denver has some pieces I'd love. Ty/Miller/Brewer/Faried/Gallo/Chandler/McGee/Koufas. They could build a great package for us.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby therealdeal on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:07 am

^ You and I have talked about this before: that team is a 2nd exit. They're too one dimensional: namely they're all offense.

You guys can try to trade Dwight all you want, the fact is he's the best around right now. Is he an inherent winner? It seems not as much as I'd like him to be. But regardless of that he's still the best Center in the league when he's healthy and he can be a fantastic piece to the puzzle.

Everyone wants to let him go for a better leader/piece. I don't see that piece existing right now. Give me a year or two and there'll be another young guy available whether it be Irving or Wall or someone of that nature, we're going to get a young guard to run with him and that'll change the way we perceive him.

Shaq wasn't a winner until he was a Laker either.

We're all about instant gratification, which is odd because there's also an emphasis on youth development. Here's the things: we've developed youth just fine. Vujacic, Farmar, Turiaf, Ariza, Hill, now Clark, Shannon Brown. These are all players that we've either drafted or developed in house. We let most of those guys go, but we're still developing them. With the new CBA it'll be easier actually to keep some of those guys because they won't really find much money elsewhere.

What we really should do is exactly what we're doing: pour money into Kobe's last runs, hit the rest button, and hit the ground running after a year below the cap.
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby Center Court on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:08 am

Finwë wrote:
last stand wrote:
CarolinaLakerFan wrote:Trade D12 and MWP to Brooklyn for Lopez, Wallace and Marshawn Brooks and be done with it. It's obvious he doesn't want to be here.


great idea. lets trade dwight for 2 ok players with ridiculous contracts and a young player who's taken a massive dip in his 2nd year.

sounds like a great idea. where do i sign up.

while we're at it lets trade kobe for joe johnson. might as well stockpile ludicrous contracts in exchange for worse players.

How about, assuming the FO believes he's gonna walk, Howard to POR for Aldridge and Batum? Add MWP and maybe get Wes Matthews back.
Nash/Blake
Kobe/Wes Matthews
Batum/Clark
Aldridge/Jamison
Pau/Hill

Offensively it seems the pieces would fit much better. I don't know about our D though.


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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby Finwë on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:53 am

LOL, I was just throwing names around, relax

And realdeal, I agree, I'm just asking that if the FO thought Howard was gonna walk and decided to trade him, what package would be acceptable? Then I just threw some names around, that's all.
If Howard wasn't planning to leave, then I wouldn't deal him unless I got a really great deal in place that fit the pieces we already have better.
It's true that the Batum-Aldridge deal would probably hurt our D though. Plus everyone would be a season older...

Different quesiton, even with Howard in the lineup, could a team that is starting Nash & Pau (one season older) be a good defensive team? And it's not like Kobe or MWP are playing elite perimeter D.
It just feels like we have too many weak links in our team for us to play consistent, tough, championship level D. Physically we can't really compete with teams like Miami or OKC or the Clippers, and system-wise we don't have a brilliant coach like Thibbs or Pop to coordinate our D and hide our individual weaknesses..
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Re: Dwight Howard Discussion: Locker room hot "air" (p856)

Postby last stand on Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:24 am

therealdeal wrote:^ You and I have talked about this before: that team is a 2nd exit. They're too one dimensional: namely they're all offense.

You guys can try to trade Dwight all you want, the fact is he's the best around right now. Is he an inherent winner? It seems not as much as I'd like him to be. But regardless of that he's still the best Center in the league when he's healthy and he can be a fantastic piece to the puzzle.

Everyone wants to let him go for a better leader/piece. I don't see that piece existing right now. Give me a year or two and there'll be another young guy available whether it be Irving or Wall or someone of that nature, we're going to get a young guard to run with him and that'll change the way we perceive him.

Shaq wasn't a winner until he was a Laker either.

We're all about instant gratification, which is odd because there's also an emphasis on youth development. Here's the things: we've developed youth just fine. Vujacic, Farmar, Turiaf, Ariza, Hill, now Clark, Shannon Brown. These are all players that we've either drafted or developed in house. We let most of those guys go, but we're still developing them. With the new CBA it'll be easier actually to keep some of those guys because they won't really find much money elsewhere.

What we really should do is exactly what we're doing: pour money into Kobe's last runs, hit the rest button, and hit the ground running after a year below the cap.


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