Dwight Discussion: Houston we have a problem (986)

therealdeal · by **therealdeal** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:39 am

phoenixrisingla wrote:I think this is a big part of the problem.

We've been spoiled by kobe so long, that we just assume that the leader of our team WILL be the same kind of cutthroat warrior-beast that kobe is.

There's just not many people wired like that unfortunately, and even fewer who can manage to stay healthy and productive the way Kobe has.

Exactly.

It's the same basic idea that applied to Kobe coming directly after Jordan. Or Jim Buss coming after his father.

We've got this pedestal that those guys sit on in comparison to the next person. And no matter what happens, that guy will almost never live up to the one before. That person might do a lot of great things, but in the short term they'll never live up to the expectations.

Howard won't be Kobe any more than Kobe was Jordan before him or Jim Buss was his father. At some point we've got to come to terms with that and just let the team be who it's going to be.

Center Court · by **Center Court** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:20 am

therealdeal wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:I think this is a big part of the problem.

We've been spoiled by kobe so long, that we just assume that the leader of our team WILL be the same kind of cutthroat warrior-beast that kobe is.

There's just not many people wired like that unfortunately, and even fewer who can manage to stay healthy and productive the way Kobe has.

Exactly.

It's the same basic idea that applied to Kobe coming directly after Jordan. Or Jim Buss coming after his father.

We've got this pedestal that those guys sit on in comparison to the next person. And no matter what happens, that guy will almost never live up to the one before. That person might do a lot of great things, but in the short term they'll never live up to the expectations.

Howard won't be Kobe any more than Kobe was Jordan before him or Jim Buss was his father. At some point we've got to come to terms with that and just let the team be who it's going to be.

Accepting them for who are and who they are not is one thing. It's a completely different to make excuses for their every move. It's nothing like comparing Jordan and Kobe or Dr. Buss to barely Buss. That's a silly comparrison.

What we are talking about is a fundamental level of accountability and pride that all the NBA greats have shown. If he doesn't have Kobe's, then so be it. But if he wants to be a superstar and all time great then he needs to play the part as much as possible. Not mope around the way he does-- especially on the court.

It's not about being the "next person", it's about being a true star. And if you look around the NBA, there are a many of guys who fit the mold. Maybe Dwight is just not cut from the same cloth.

LeBron
Wade
Durant
CP3
Melo
Kobe
Rose
KG

Dwight is in the same category as those guys, yet he never just goes out and competes the way they did.

abeer3 · by **abeer3** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:23 am

karacha wrote:
1. Dwight Howard from LA Lakers to Brooklyn Nets for Kris Humphries, MarShon Brooks, Mirza Teletovic, Tyshawn Taylor, Togo Shengelia and the rights to Bogan Bogdanovic and Ilya Karaman.

Brilliant. Let's do it.

lol. we get it, chris, you want dwight in brooklyn. seriously, i'm not sure if i'd take that package for anyone. i suppose they could have duhon for that.

therealdeal · by **therealdeal** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:46 am

Center Court wrote:[Accepting them for who are and who they are not is one thing. It's a completely different to make excuses for their every move. It's nothing like comparing Jordan and Kobe or Dr. Buss to barely Buss. That's a silly comparrison.

It's not silly of a comparison at all. It's completely reasonable.

Dwight Howard will never live up to Kobe Bryant. No one will. Even if we got Kevin Durant, he said recently that there are some situations where he won't take a shot to save his FG%. Most posters here said "Kobe would never do that". That in itself is a comparison negatively to Kobe. Durant isn't the same defender as Kobe, he'd get exposed there. He doesn't have a post game. Etc. Etc. LeBron doesn't always have the same killer mentality as Kobe, even though he's the best in the game right now.

What's so unreasonable to think that comparing Dwight Howard to Kobe Bryant will always result negatively for Howard? We've been doing it all season. It's silly to think that DOESN'T apply here.

Center Court wrote:What we are talking about is a fundamental level of accountability and pride that all the NBA greats have shown. If he doesn't have Kobe's, then so be it.

And again, who are we comparing him to all season? "His shoulder is hurt? Well Kobe played through it". "Kobe wouldn't give us that kind of effort on the floor". Etc.

Why not compare him to Shaq? Mr. You've Got to Feed the Big Dog if You Want Him to Protect the House. The same Shaq who was NEVER accountable for his actions. The Shaq comparisons were rampant to Howard before he got here, but once he got here so many seemed to forget that side of his personality. Roos didn't and he was prepared for this behavior. He warned so many of you but everyone brushed it aside. I listened, but I just didn't care enough about that side of him to care that much about it. I guess that's why I'm saying what I'm saying now.

But if he wants to be a superstar and all time great then he needs to play the part as much as possible. Not mope around the way he does-- especially on the court.

Again, Kobe Bryant won't mope but outside of that you don't see what you're saying all that often. We've seen LeBron mope. We've seen Wade mope. We've seen Shaq mope. We've seen Kobe mope when he was younger. It's about maturity and if you want to tell me that Howard needs to grow up, I won't disagree, but you're talking about accountability like EVERY Champion has always exhibited that throughout their career.

We're not going to win this year most likely because Howard isn't ready. That doesn't mean he CAN'T be ready. We've seen growth from these kinds of players before. Shaq did it, then he regressed, but it's still there. It's still possible. And that's all for a different discussion.

What I'm saying is that it's ridiculous to hold Howard to Kobe's standard and we've got to get past that.

It's not about being the "next person", it's about being a true star. And if you look around the NBA, there are a many of guys who fit the mold. Maybe Dwight is just not cut from the same cloth.

LeBron
Wade
Durant
CP3
Melo
Kobe
Rose
KG

Dwight is in the same category as those guys, yet he never just goes out and competes the way they did.

Whoa wait a minute...

Kobe is a 5 time champion and a veteran. He's got a different cloth.

LeBron didn't start acting this way until after his embarassment in the 2011 Finals. He was pretty much the same as Howard. Wade is the biggest baby in the league. Carmelo hasn't won but a handful of playoff games and he's a better competitor? Garnett is like Kobe. Rose hasn't played in a year. Paul might be the ONLY guy with the same competitive energy as Kobe Bryant.

Howard is fresh off of BACK surgery. Have you watched him in the playoffs in 2011 against Atlanta? He dominated that team. He has the ability to be competitive like that when he's healthy. If you think what you're seeing from him now is the norm, you've not watched him before this season. The Dwight we have isn't anywhere near the Dwight he was before the surgery and he won't be anywhere near that for probably another 6 months or so.

But to lump him in with a perennial loser like Carmelo?... Whoa. :man10:

denimPortugal · by **denimPortugal** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:56 am

Dwight Howard Unhappy In LA; Kobe “OK” With Trading Howard

According to Chris Palmer from ESPN, Dwight Howard is unhappy in Los Angeles and is expected to walk away from the franchise this summer.

There has been plenty of drama in Los Angeles this season. The most recent stories report that Dwight Howard wore Kobe’s jersey and mocked him behind his back in the locker room during the All-Star game. Another headline says that Kobe Bryant will be “OK” with a trade that sends Dwight Howard out of Los Angeles.

In a recent report by the New York Post, claims have been made that Dwight Howard mocked Kobe Bryant behind his back during the All-Star game in Houston. Dwight apparently “grabbed Kobe’s uniform, put it on, and imitated him in front of all the other players on the West team. He was joking and berating Kobe”, in front of superstars Chris Paul, Blake Griffin and Kevin Durant. The article also mentioned that Kobe later walked into the locker room and greeted everyone but Dwight Howard.

According to FOX Sports Ohio, Kobe Bryant doesn’t care whether Dwight Howard remains a Laker, leaves via free agency, or gets traded before the deadline. These sources have also reported that many of Kobe’s teammates believe that Howard doesn’t care enough about winning, and doesn’t take the game seriously.

(Via Hoops-Nation.com)

therealdeal · by **therealdeal** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:05 pm

1. Kobe's OK with trading Howard comes directly from the quote "It doesn't matter if we trade him". When asked the question "Would you be okay with trading Howard" Kobe didn't say yes, he said it doesn't matter.

Media twist at it's finest.

2. If Dwight were mocking Kobe in the locker room, would anyone be surprised? He seems like the kind of guy to make those types of jokes. What he would fail to realize is that people like Durant and Paul respect Kobe far more than him because he's a winner and that's what they're striving for.

In the All-Star game to me it seemed that Dwight was out of touch with everyone when he was in the game. Paul wasn't looking for him much, Durant didn't pass at all, Kobe wasn't looking for him much. That really told me where Dwight's effort is and where others are putting him at the moment. Dwight doesn't care that much this season. Whether that's because of LA or because he is just frustrated with himself, I'm inclined to think the latter.

JoelMyersScrotalSack · by **JoelMyersScrotalSack** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:08 pm

denimPortugal wrote:
Dwight Howard Unhappy In LA; Kobe “OK” With Trading Howard

According to Chris Palmer from ESPN, Dwight Howard is unhappy in Los Angeles and is expected to walk away from the franchise this summer.

There has been plenty of drama in Los Angeles this season. The most recent stories report that Dwight Howard wore Kobe’s jersey and mocked him behind his back in the locker room during the All-Star game. Another headline says that Kobe Bryant will be “OK” with a trade that sends Dwight Howard out of Los Angeles.

In a recent report by the New York Post, claims have been made that Dwight Howard mocked Kobe Bryant behind his back during the All-Star game in Houston. Dwight apparently “grabbed Kobe’s uniform, put it on, and imitated him in front of all the other players on the West team. He was joking and berating Kobe”, in front of superstars Chris Paul, Blake Griffin and Kevin Durant. The article also mentioned that Kobe later walked into the locker room and greeted everyone but Dwight Howard.

According to FOX Sports Ohio, Kobe Bryant doesn’t care whether Dwight Howard remains a Laker, leaves via free agency, or gets traded before the deadline. These sources have also reported that many of Kobe’s teammates believe that Howard doesn’t care enough about winning, and doesn’t take the game seriously.

(Via Hoops-Nation.com)

Reports like this really piss me off. Garbage journalism

nameant · by **nameant** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:11 pm

Why would they completely fabricate a story? Exaggerate, sure...but completely make something up? There's gotta be SOMETHING there. It sounds like Dwight. And if it's true, lol at Dwight mocking somebody like Kobe. Who are you? What have you done in this league besides be a poor man's underachieving version of Shaq?

Weezy · by **Weezy** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:13 pm

khmrP wrote:
Weezy wrote:
KareemTheGreat33 wrote:The King dream eh..

Don't know if you were responding to me, but if so, no doesn't have to be LeBron. That said in a league where 58 mil is the cap and luxury tax penalties are insane, only a handful of players are worth 20 mil per season and again IMO Dwight isn't one of them. 20 mil is a lot different when the cap is that different. Right NOW, I can only think of a few guys worth that and a few guys who if they live up to their potential being worth that.

well those handful of guys you feel deserve $20mill wouldn't leave all that money on the table to come here either. If you're gona factor in the new CBA in regards to Howard eating up most of our cap then you should also acknowledge the fact that bird rights team will ALWAYS have more money to throw at these MAX lvl players.

I still don't give Howard 20 mil by default, because he's the only guy left. If that's the choice I give 15 mil to Some lesser stars that keep us competitive until we can go the best direction, even if it takes time.

Also, in response to another post, Dwight is not another Shaq, he's not close to Shaq on offense, he only can only exceed him on help defense, and when he gives full effort rebounding. Everything else he's not close, leadership, desire to win, being serious out on the court when it's game time, commanding respect, actual physical size, it's just not a fair comparison.

lakerfan2 · by **lakerfan2** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:17 pm

Who wrote that article? BS journalism at it's finest.

Oh Nash bought a Japanese car? Oh no, he's moving to Japan.

khmrP · by **khmrP** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:21 pm

Weezy wrote:
khmrP wrote:
Weezy wrote:
KareemTheGreat33 wrote:The King dream eh..

Don't know if you were responding to me, but if so, no doesn't have to be LeBron. That said in a league where 58 mil is the cap and luxury tax penalties are insane, only a handful of players are worth 20 mil per season and again IMO Dwight isn't one of them. 20 mil is a lot different when the cap is that different. Right NOW, I can only think of a few guys worth that and a few guys who if they live up to their potential being worth that.

well those handful of guys you feel deserve $20mill wouldn't leave all that money on the table to come here either. If you're gona factor in the new CBA in regards to Howard eating up most of our cap then you should also acknowledge the fact that bird rights team will ALWAYS have more money to throw at these MAX lvl players.

I still don't give Howard 20 mil by default, because he's the only guy left. If that's the choice I give 15 mil to Some lesser stars that keep us competitive until we can go the best direction, even if it takes time.

Also, in response to another post, Dwight is not another Shaq, he's not close to Shaq on offense, he only can only exceed him on help defense, and when he gives full effort rebounding. Everything else he's not close, leadership, desire to win, being serious out on the court when it's game time, commanding respect, actual physical size, it's just not a fair comparison.

Shaq "desire to win" should be questionned, NEVER came to camp in Shape, ALWAYS got hurt because he didn't show up in shape, and ALWAYS recovered on "company time" and NEVER played a full season. None of that aspect dictates "desire to win" IMO. Also great leader dont ostricize his teammates because of fear of sharing the spot light like he did to Kobe.

Weezy · by **Weezy** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:26 pm

I think you're confusing lazy and enjoys life a little much with desire to win. Shaq sure looked like he wanted to win when he was regularly dropping 40 in teams in the 2000 playoffs, and every time we got to the finals and it was time to close the deal (and really every series 2000-2002, almost every 2003 and 2004). His desire to win from what I saw in those playoffs a was as high as anyone's, he didn't mess around.

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:29 pm

^^I wouldn't say Shaq "Always" got hurt. He was hurt a few times and definitely let his weight dictate his game. Shaq and Howard have some similarities in that they had huge head starts on everyone else from a physical standpoint. Shaq developed his game a little over the years.... Howard hasn't.... at least to the same degree. Mentally Shaq came to play when it counted regardless of his and Kobe's relationship. Don't know if we can say that about Howard.....

Lakerman JSJ · by **Lakerman JSJ** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:29 pm

I've officially reached the point of not giving a crap if this dude stays or leaves.

Exhibit A: http://smokingsection.uproxx.com/TSS/2013/02/10-people-who-need-to-be-punched-in-the-face#page/3 (Warning: link contains strong language)

If he had half, just half, of Kobe's desire to be great & win we'd be a much better team.

khmrP · by **khmrP** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:30 pm

Rooscooter wrote:^^I wouldn't say Shaq "Always" got hurt. He was hurt a few times and definitely let his weight dictate his game. Shaq and Howard have some similarities in that they had huge head starts on everyone else from a physical standpoint. Shaq developed his game a little over the years.... Howard hasn't.... at least to the same degree. Mentally Shaq came to play when it counted regardless of his and Kobe's relationship. Don't know if we can say that about Howard.....

more often then not he was

therealdeal · by **therealdeal** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:30 pm

Weezy wrote:I think you're confusing lazy and enjoys life a little much with desire to win. Shaq sure looked like he wanted to win when he was regularly dropping 40 in teams in the 2000 playoffs, and every time we got to the finals and it was time to close the deal (and really every series 2000-2002, almost every 2003 and 2004). His desire to win from what I saw in those playoffs a was as high as anyone's, he didn't mess around.

But he didn't start there either. He and Howard's jouneys in the NBA were very, very similar before reaching LA. The difference being Howard got here and struggled immensely whether due to his back or his attitude.

Shaq took a long time before he was a Champion and he was relatively healthy the entire way. Howard isn't Shaq, but in today's NBA he's the closest thing to it. If he were healthy this season, who knows how much more fun he'd be having/how much less drama?

I'm just trying to keep things level here. Dwight has been a disappointment yes, but there's other things at play here.

FabFourLakers · by **FabFourLakers** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:31 pm

Even if we DID trade Dwight...it wouldn't be a very good package....I'm thinking a team like Indiana would be the best trading partner...get Roy Hibbert and Danny Granger...or maybe a team like New Orleans...get Ryan Anderson and Grevis Vasquez.....or a team like Milwaukee...get Larry Sanders, Mbah Moute and Jennings. If we're going to trade Dwight, we better get a center, a small forward, and a point guard, and a draft pick.

therealdeal · by **therealdeal** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:32 pm

nameant wrote:Why would they completely fabricate a story? Exaggerate, sure...but completely make something up? There's gotta be SOMETHING there. It sounds like Dwight. And if it's true, lol at Dwight mocking somebody like Kobe. Who are you? What have you done in this league besides be a poor man's underachieving version of Shaq?

The locker room incident to me sounds more like playful ribbing. If it had been honest mocking then wouldn't we have heard the same awkward crickets that we heard with the stat sheet incident in OUR locker room?

And as for the "Kobe is OK with Dwight being traded" thing, I already showed how that's 100% spun.

khmrP · by **khmrP** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:35 pm

Weezy wrote:I think you're confusing lazy and enjoys life a little much with desire to win. Shaq sure looked like he wanted to win when he was regularly dropping 40 in teams in the 2000 playoffs, and every time we got to the finals and it was time to close the deal (and really every series 2000-2002, almost every 2003 and 2004). His desire to win from what I saw in those playoffs a was as high as anyone's, he didn't mess around.

and Howard wasn't dropping #'s like that during his playoff runs in Orl? Yes he's not doing it here I concede that but doesn't mean he "couldn't" do it if/when that opportunity present itself as a Laker.

Rooscooter · by **Rooscooter** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:36 pm

khmrP wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^I wouldn't say Shaq "Always" got hurt. He was hurt a few times and definitely let his weight dictate his game. Shaq and Howard have some similarities in that they had huge head starts on everyone else from a physical standpoint. Shaq developed his game a little over the years.... Howard hasn't.... at least to the same degree. Mentally Shaq came to play when it counted regardless of his and Kobe's relationship. Don't know if we can say that about Howard.....

more often then not he was

How many big men play 82 every season?.... he missed some games every season.... When I think "Always Hurt" I think Bynum..... not Shaq.

I couldn't really care about missing a few games a year when the effort is there when your on the court and your head is in the right place off of it..... That's the problem with Howard on both accounts. Million dollar body..... nickel head.

khmrP · by **khmrP** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:39 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
khmrP wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:^^I wouldn't say Shaq "Always" got hurt. He was hurt a few times and definitely let his weight dictate his game. Shaq and Howard have some similarities in that they had huge head starts on everyone else from a physical standpoint. Shaq developed his game a little over the years.... Howard hasn't.... at least to the same degree. Mentally Shaq came to play when it counted regardless of his and Kobe's relationship. Don't know if we can say that about Howard.....

more often then not he was

How many big men play 82 every season?....

Howard up until now :man10:

Doc Brown · by **Doc Brown** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:40 pm

That story about D12 and the mocking is funny.

Let's see here....

1.) NY post reported it........I wonder why? What do they stand to gain from it? Ohh yea Dwight Howard.

2.) A report from Ohio aka Sam Amico.......This dude's whole journalism career has been a factory of sadness sitting on a throne of lies and made up hoopla. How the hell would he know anything about what is going on with the Lakers? What Lakers have ties with him all the way in Ohio to make those comments?

3.) True or not, D12 needs to pull his head out of his a**, insert his fist into his face and knock off the playfulness and joking. Where did that get LBJ? Nowhere. Where is a LBJ now? A champion. Why? Because he started giving a damn. Another example is Kevin Durant. Playing like a pissed off son of a B this year. Why? Because he wants a ring, because he failed last year.

Weezy · by **Weezy** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:42 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Weezy wrote:I think you're confusing lazy and enjoys life a little much with desire to win. Shaq sure looked like he wanted to win when he was regularly dropping 40 in teams in the 2000 playoffs, and every time we got to the finals and it was time to close the deal (and really every series 2000-2002, almost every 2003 and 2004). His desire to win from what I saw in those playoffs a was as high as anyone's, he didn't mess around.

But he didn't start there either. He and Howard's jouneys in the NBA were very, very similar before reaching LA. The difference being Howard got here and struggled immensely whether due to his back or his attitude.

Shaq took a long time before he was a Champion and he was relatively healthy the entire way. Howard isn't Shaq, but in today's NBA he's the closest thing to it. If he were healthy this season, who knows how much more fun he'd be having/how much less drama?

I'm just trying to keep things level here. Dwight has been a disappointment yes, but there's other things at play here.

As far as I remember Shaq always did his part even when not winning championships though. Look at his numbers from the 95 Finals, he averaged 28 ppg and had big rebounding numbers every game. They lost, but he did his part, he was always good, he just got better and like many Phil got him over the top. Dwight is not Shaq, in any way you can come up with, he's not. The only way he's the Shaq of today is that he was physically dominant over a lot of other big men before his back injury, and even then the best he could ever do was average 22 ppg, and that's in a league with pretty much a pathetic class of centers to go against. Prime Shaq would destroy most of the big men today, he could probably average 30+ easily against the defense Howward sees.

Chillbongo · by **Chillbongo** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:46 pm

khmrP wrote:Shaq "desire to win" should be questionned, NEVER came to camp in Shape, ALWAYS got hurt because he didn't show up in shape, and ALWAYS recovered on "company time" and NEVER played a full season. None of that aspect dictates "desire to win" IMO. Also great leader dont ostricize his teammates because of fear of sharing the spot light like he did to Kobe.

Shaq's desire to win should be questioned? Were you around to watch the Lakers from 1999-2002? His company time recovery came after 3-PEATING at least. Not excusable, but he had something to show for it.

Also that "journalism" above quite plainly is just prodding. I don't even think Dwight could fit in Kobe's jersey. It could be true, and if it was, it was probably all in good fun. There's no way he was hating on Kobe in front of the entire West team. Also, how is it that "all" the West players were in the locker room....but Kobe wasn't?

GoldenKnight · by **GoldenKnight** on Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:49 pm

Phil Jackson: Lakers Have Eliminated Dwight's Assets On Offense

Phil Jackson recently purchased the NBA League Pass at the insistence of fiance Jeanie Buss.

Jackson has been asked by a few teams to take notes on what he sees and was recently asked by Jack McCallum what he sees when he currently watches the Los Angeles Lakers.

"They just don't put the ball in the post," said Jackson. "They'll use a screen-roll to get the guy in the post. But there's no consistent plan to do it. Yes, Kobe will go in there. But Dwight [Howard] just doesn't get any touches. They've basically eliminated his assets."

Jackson believes Howard could be similar to Shaquille O'Neal in his ability to draw double teams and find open shooters.

"I think he can be. But he is not where he needs to be physically because of the back surgery. He needs a year to recover from something like that. He's starting to come around, but he has a massive upper body to carry around. He's a terrific athlete, but he still has to get all that back. He's looking better all the time, but his problem right now is turnovers. He's got to have a little better recognition, and that will help him gain the confidence of his teammates and coach, which he does not have now."

Jackson concedes that he sees the Lakers improving.

"Yes, I think they are finding a way to play. And that's nice to see. Steve (Nash) has had to sacrifice because Kobe (Bryant) is dominating the ball, but Kobe is showing he can be both playmaker and scorer. Now it's about defense. And I think that's coming around. They make the playoffs, I think they've shown they're going to be in it with every team."

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/22 ... On-Offense

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