Armani wrote: No player is actually playing the sort of DPOY level defense that Dwight Howard did and putting up 25+ points within the flow of a good offense. Shaq did for maybe 1 or 2 years...

Kareem, Thurmond, Gilmore, Hakeem, Robinson and Ewing all say hi......

Howard isn't in that league.... not even close. Shaq was offensively but not on the defensive side of the ball for more than a season or so.

The problem with trying to evaluate Howard against good to great centers is that beyond Bynum there aren't any real two way centers that have played in the last 10 to 15 years so most haven't seen what a true balanced great center can do.

I had a game tonight, and this almost exact question came up, non Laker fans thought I was crazy for saying Kobe. I mean I can't say much more then what's been said already. If you're a fan of the Lakers, if you judge them by the way they should be judged, it's Kobe for so many reasons, cause Dwight will never win a title as the #1 option, he lacks anything resembling a solid player on the offensive end, he can't hit a god damn free throw, he's simply not a killer, his health problems is a serious concern, compare that with someone who has won 5 titles, been to 7 finals, knows how to change his game based on his age, for god's sake, he's a better post player thhn Dwight, he can play through any injury...I don't get how this is a question...

Lets Go Lakers wrote:

John3:16 wrote:Really?

A. You don't trade a Kobe Bryant

B. You don't trade a Kobe Bryant

C. When in doubt, refer to A or B

OK, another question. Lakers or Kobe?

Too bad your agenda driven poll is blowing up on you

The Dwight that went to the finals is gone. He will still be a great player, but the back injury took just enough of the out of the world athleticism it has made him mortal. As a mortal his fundamentals are crap. He can still dominate a game from the defensive side but you need scorers. He will never be in the same class as Kareem, Wilt or Shaq. Just not going to happen. Its not unlike David Robinson. He had back issues and came back but was never the same player. He won a few rings but as the defensive anchor and high post shooter with Duncan doing all the heavy lifting. The next Tim Duncan is not walking through that door. Pau is a few years late to be that guy as well.

Honestly I hate this question for any number of reasons. The real question may be does Kobe want to go somewhere else or retire? The mix of players just doesn't appear like it will get it done. Too weak of a bench. Nash is a one way player now. Kobe can still score but doesn't demoralize teams anymore. Pau just isn't the same player. With this system at best helps Kobe win the scoring title.

Look at Kobe and Dwight Kobe has everything in him, even the low post move is way better than Dwight Howard. The hook shot, the floater, low post shot,etc.
Dwight is overrated. When he post up, turnover.
He is never close to Shaquille. As Dwight got no offensive skill, he can't score when facing the strong centre.
And I wonder where is the Kareem stuff. I never see any shake from Howard.
He is a super dirty work player only.

Kobe might be older now. He is not capable of carrying the game as hard as he could in the past.
But overall he is still very decent in the league. If his salary could be like 15m in 2014, it is still a very good sign. Given Kobe is willing to play through the weariness.

jesus christ just lock this thing already

ramsay13 wrote:Easy, Lakers. Cause the franchise is great, there will always be great players coming to the Lakers. There will be other players breaking Kobes record. No one above the Team.

Multiple other players on the Lakers breaking Kobe's record(s)? Seriously, you believe that?

And for the OP yeah damn when he's 35 why don't we just take him out back and shoot him. This injury with Dwight's shoulder....Kobe has continuously throughout his career played through bleep as serious or worse at times. Remember about 6....7 years ago he faked someone into the air who came down and what was it separated his shoulder? I believe no one in the history of the league has played through more injuries, that normal players, stars even, routinely are done for a period of time until they let them heal.

Why do people keep mentioning that Dwight has a weak offensive game? It's nothing new. He gets most of his points just by being around the basket and free throws.

You guys are right. He's not winning a ring if you ask him to lead a team. He does need a great sidekick to handle the clutch duties. But i think many of you are discounting his immense talents. The guy is at 75%. And he's still pretty darn good. And he's just entering his prime and might give this franchise 8 prime years or so. You add in a great pg and all you need are complimentary pieces. This guy took a team to the finals already. His back is obviously the big issue but assuming that's ok, how can u not want this talent in a Laker uniform?

Weezy wrote:So then how is Dwight a championship caliber franchise player if he can't averaege more than 22 ppg then? That's all I'm asking, what franchise player that has led his team to a title in the last say, 20 to 30 years has averaged that low? Duncan maybe? You have to surround him with talent that perfectly makes up for his flaws to win is what I'm saying. A great PG like Tony Parker is to Duncan, a guy that can pour in the points to make up for Dwight not being able to, or multiple guys that can, shooters, etc. I think Bill Russell is a good comparison, but you're referencing a guy there who won his last title over 40 years ago. I'm not knocking him at all, jut saying that style of franchise player isn't really what carries teams to titles in today's NBA.

I don't agree. The dominant big man has always been predominant in the NBA. That's why the Lakers try to monopolize them. Just because Dwight doesn't average 25 points, doesn't mean he can't be effective. Is the THE franchise player? I don't know. Maybe not. But in the 80s who would you have classified as THE franchise guy between Magic and Kareem (and to a lesser extent Worthy)? It takes that extra guy.

Say Dwight averaged 22/18 with 3 blocks (possible, but very unlikely). I think that'd be worth making him our franchise Center. Of course, you have to pair him with another star player that can put points on the board, but that's fine. I don't mind that at all.

That's all I'm saying, he's not a franchise carrying player to me, at least not carrying to a championship. Put another star next to him that can score and deliver in the clutch and you have something, Chris Paul would have filled that nicely, we can keep thanking Stern there. As for 22/18/3, I do think that's asking a bit much overall, at this point I'd be thrilled with him averaging the 23/14/2 he did in the '10/'11 season.

Lets Go Lakers wrote:Why do people keep mentioning that Dwight has a weak offensive game? It's nothing new. He gets most of his points just by being around the basket and free throws.

You guys are right. He's not winning a ring if you ask him to lead a team. He does need a great sidekick to handle the clutch duties. But i think many of you are discounting his immense talents. The guy is at 75%. And he's still pretty darn good. And he's just entering his prime and might give this franchise 8 prime years or so. You add in a great pg and all you need are complimentary pieces. This guy took a team to the finals already. His back is obviously the big issue but assuming that's ok, how can u not want this talent in a Laker uniform?

You just answered your own question, he's not good enough to be a franchise type player. A very great basketball player and plays an important role on a contender, much like guys around the league like Bosh, or a very rich man's Griffin or Ibaka. A leader of a team and face of a franchise? Nope.

KBJelleyBean24 wrote:

Lets Go Lakers wrote:Why do people keep mentioning that Dwight has a weak offensive game? It's nothing new. He gets most of his points just by being around the basket and free throws.

You guys are right. He's not winning a ring if you ask him to lead a team. He does need a great sidekick to handle the clutch duties. But i think many of you are discounting his immense talents. The guy is at 75%. And he's still pretty darn good. And he's just entering his prime and might give this franchise 8 prime years or so. You add in a great pg and all you need are complimentary pieces. This guy took a team to the finals already. His back is obviously the big issue but assuming that's ok, how can u not want this talent in a Laker uniform?

You just answered your own question, he's not good enough to be a franchise type player. A very great basketball player and plays an important role on a contender, much like guys around the league like Bosh, or a very rich man's Griffin or Ibaka. A leader of a team and face of a franchise? Nope.

Did you really just compare Dwight to Ibaka, Griffin, and Bosh?

Howard is on another level from those guys.

Howard lead a team?



lets pretend he is putting up monster numbers and just dominating on the floor at the C position on both ends....

does he actually have the personality to be a leader?

can he crack the whip? be encouraging when need be?

or would he be all fun and games overcompensating one way because he can't do the other in a leadership type of role?

Can that be respected when crunch time hits and it's time to lead men in the hardest of moments?

can he face the media when things aren't going well as the face of the team? can he deal with the harsh questions and criticisms that come with playing in this market particularly?

To me they throw around "franchise" player way too easily........... everyone wants one but there is not really enough of them for everyone.

There are other IMPORTANT intangibles that make up a leader........... and it's not all fantasy stats on the floor.

Texas Lakers Fan wrote:

KBJelleyBean24 wrote:

Lets Go Lakers wrote:Why do people keep mentioning that Dwight has a weak offensive game? It's nothing new. He gets most of his points just by being around the basket and free throws.

You guys are right. He's not winning a ring if you ask him to lead a team. He does need a great sidekick to handle the clutch duties. But i think many of you are discounting his immense talents. The guy is at 75%. And he's still pretty darn good. And he's just entering his prime and might give this franchise 8 prime years or so. You add in a great pg and all you need are complimentary pieces. This guy took a team to the finals already. His back is obviously the big issue but assuming that's ok, how can u not want this talent in a Laker uniform?

You just answered your own question, he's not good enough to be a franchise type player. A very great basketball player and plays an important role on a contender, much like guys around the league like Bosh, or a very rich man's Griffin or Ibaka. A leader of a team and face of a franchise? Nope.

Did you really just compare Dwight to Ibaka, Griffin, and Bosh?

Howard is on another level from those guys.

I said he was a very rich man's Ibaka and Griffin. And in terms of scoring bosh owns Howard, but Howard owns Bosh on defense and rebounding so it kinda evens itself out. And and also Howard used to play on another level than than all of those guys, but has come back down to earth this year after the injuries, and it has yet to be seen if he can return to that level of dominance. If he doesn't, and cannot develop his low post game because of his declining athleticism, my point returns on that he falls simply into an important role player on a championship team, not a franchise player.

The biggest problems for Howard right now as a player are two things that are intertwined

Howard has always done better as a face up big, not a back to the basket big..... he relies on a pure athletic ability on the offensive end that he simply does not have right now. He doesn't have the explosion he needs on command and now his technique weaknesses as a legit 2 way big are being exposed. Still decent to good on the defensive end but not so good as a center offensively as to command the ball in the post........ To be a really good post, back to the basket guy you need great footwork, fundamentals and passing ability from it....... something neither Bynum or Howard have as a complete package 2 way center in the NBA today... will they someday? maybe Bynum if he can find some sort of love for the game instead of love for the paycheck and lifestyle but I'm not so sure about Howard.... Howard will be as effective as his athleticism allows him to be.... at the peak he's dominant, but if not at his peak an all-star but not the #1 guy you can lean on as a legit power house on the offensive end.... his game, which is a face up one, is all athleticism with the ball is in his hands playing inside out basketball.

too sum up ... it's a lot of the athletic pop that is missing and yet again another miss use of Talent by my favorite/genius coach.

It's a no brainer. Take the younger franchise player(Dwight) who is actually worth what he's signed for, and not the old prima donna, who is very hard to build a team around, and at that old of a age, is not even worth building a team around unless he's going to sign for 10/15 mil. We're looking toward the future, not the past.

LakerBoyz24 wrote:It's a no brainer. Take the younger franchise player(Dwight) who is actually worth what he's signed for, and not the old prima donna, who is very hard to build a team around, and at that old of a age, is not even worth building a team around unless he's going to sign for 10/15 mil. We're looking toward the future, not the past.

I guess going to the finals 7 out of your 14 years means it's hard to build around a guy

I think it's much harder to find good coaching and a real 2 way center these days

MC wrote:

LakerBoyz24 wrote:It's a no brainer. Take the younger franchise player(Dwight) who is actually worth what he's signed for, and not the old prima donna, who is very hard to build a team around, and at that old of a age, is not even worth building a team around unless he's going to sign for 10/15 mil. We're looking toward the future, not the past.

I guess going to the finals 7 out of your 14 years means it's hard to build around a guy

I think it's much harder to find good coaching and a real 2 way center these days

How many of the finals trip from 7 out of 14 years were with Kobe being the "man"? How many of those finals trip/rings ended with Kobe getting the finals MVP? Kobe lost the finals MVP more times than he won it.

He's old now, and you have to build a team like the Pau Gasol/Kobe Bryant Era with a dominant versatile 4/5(top 5 in the league) and strong role players. And I don't think the Lakers are willing to invest that much on a 35 year old player. That was the only time Kobe got to the finals/won it as "the man"(even then, Pau Gasol was dominant during those runs and could be thought of as a 1b option as opposed to a #2 option).

Because let's be honest, during the Shaq and Kobe years where Kobe accumulated the highest amount of rings, Shaq was the man of the team and any top 5 or even top 10 SG would have worked in place of Kobe, mostly because the team was built around Shaq and he was so dominant. That was Shaq's team, not Kobe's, and Shaq and Phil Jackson repeatedly confirmed this without Kobe ever peeping a word about it. Only after Shaq's departure was Kobe handed the keys to the franchise.

^
no argument that he's aging and you can;t really think long term around him.......... still doesn;t mean Howard is the right one either.

Bryant was on those teams so yes a team is built with many guys around it that have to coexist.... #1, #2 matters not..... can you build a winner around Bryant? 7 times says yes to your 1 time appearance by Howard.

My guess is neither will be here come 2015 and the Lakers might be better off for it given the cap space, market, and FA class.

Could have been the ideal time to actually try and go to a stretch 4 style of play if you really wanted the change......... but instead they go and try and change when they are not read and stuck with a team designed not to play that way..... but has a fighting chance playing the right way..........so short sighted...... so sad.

The roster is flawed ........ for the way we are playing

we were told this roster was ideal for this change.........

now it's the players?

lol

common.

MC wrote:^
no argument that he's aging and you can;t really think long term around him.......... still doesn;t mean Howard is the right one either.

My guess is neither will be here come 2015 and the Lakers might be better off for it given the cap space, market, and FA class.

Could have been the ideal time to actually try and go to a stretch 4 style of play if you really wanted the change......... but instead they go and try and change when they are not read and stuck with a team designed not to play that way..... but has a fighting chance playing the right way..........so short sighted...... so sad.

I don't think Howard is the right one either, but long term with Kobe is just not happening and I don't see the organization going for it. Howard will be kept as a piece but a real franchise player will have to come to the Lakers. In 2015 it's going to be a monster FA market with many top level FA's out on the market looking for teams(yes Lebron James is one of them). I'm guessing the Lakers are already planning for 2015 with Kobe's expiring just in time for the Lakers to get a max player or two. Most of the Lakers pieces are signed to short term deals so that they are prepared for the 2015 free agency, where, if done right, Lakers can have 2-3 max or near max players signed in FA.

LakerBoyz24 wrote:

MC wrote:^
no argument that he's aging and you can;t really think long term around him.......... still doesn;t mean Howard is the right one either.

My guess is neither will be here come 2015 and the Lakers might be better off for it given the cap space, market, and FA class.

Could have been the ideal time to actually try and go to a stretch 4 style of play if you really wanted the change......... but instead they go and try and change when they are not read and stuck with a team designed not to play that way..... but has a fighting chance playing the right way..........so short sighted...... so sad.

I don't think Howard is the right one either, but long term with Kobe is just not happening and I don't see the organization going for it. Howard will be kept as a piece but a real franchise player will have to come to the Lakers. In 2015 it's going to be a monster FA market with many top level FA's out on the market looking for teams(yes Lebron James is one of them). I'm guessing the Lakers are already planning for 2015 with Kobe's expiring just in time for the Lakers to get a max player or two. Most of the Lakers pieces are signed to short term deals so that they are prepared for the 2015 free agency, where, if done right, Lakers can have 2-3 max or near max players signed in FA.

Right.... so do you think 2015 would have been a better time to change Philosophy given what they had to work with and got over the this off-season or was this year the best time to try and do that given what we got?

That is why I'm pissed....... not only do I strongly disagree with this new wave of small ball philosophies (Small ball will be all the wave until the next legitimate 2 way big comes along someday...and it will... and takes their lunch money for a decade) but our genius FO as a collective can't even see the proper window and plan it responsibly? than have the audacity to pass it off as good for us now?

If we are talking about the "Post Kobe" Era.... I would still not build around Dwight in the sense that he is the highest paid player on the team. In this new reality of the CBA signed last year you have really only one "Max" slot that you can build around and sill put a balanced team on the floor, and as many have articulated here, he isn't the leader to carry a Championship team. He would be a great addition to that guy but he isn't that guy.

The front office got the best they could IMO and I'm not unhappy with the choice but just because he will be paid like a leader doesn't make him one. He's what the franchise needs post Kobe.... a popular face to keep interest in the team high while they rebuild. Let's hope they can make the transition wisely and somehow get a "closer/leader" in the next few years to take Kobe's place.

Weezy wrote:So then how is Dwight a championship caliber franchise player if he can't averaege more than 22 ppg then? That's all I'm asking, what franchise player that has led his team to a title in the last say, 20 to 30 years has averaged that low? Duncan maybe? You have to surround him with talent that perfectly makes up for his flaws to win is what I'm saying. A great PG like Tony Parker is to Duncan, a guy that can pour in the points to make up for Dwight not being able to, or multiple guys that can, shooters, etc. I think Bill Russell is a good comparison, but you're referencing a guy there who won his last title over 40 years ago. I'm not knocking him at all, jut saying that style of franchise player isn't really what carries teams to titles in today's NBA.

Well, I think this brings up some pretty interesting discussions to what exactly is a championship caliber franchise player.

Can a franchise player put up 22 PPG and be considered a franchise player if he is also an elite defender who is a multiple DPOY winner and continues to be a top candidate there?

Or is a franchise player only measured on scoring?

To me, there are three qualifications for a franchise type player.

1) Ability to contribute significantly on the offensive end
2) Ability to contribute significantly on the defensive end.
3) Elevates the play of their team with their presence on the court.

The reason Dwight MIGHT be considered a franchise player is because he is an elite defensive player who can also give you about 20 points per night if sufficiently utilized. A piece like that you can build a franchise around.

I think it might be a bit unfair to say that it is a knock that you have to go and get players that make up for his flaws. The same would be true for any franchise player. Kobe can't win without a big because Kobe can't stop all penetration on his own. He can't guard the interior, so you go and get guys who can. In fact, in a way, if you think about it, a franchise player is a guy you bring in, lean on his talents and what he does well, and then fill in the gaps with players who make up for their flaws, isn't it?

So the question ultimately is ... is Howard a guy who you acquire to fill in your gaps? Or is Howard a guy for whom you go and get other players to fill in the gaps?

Why do so many of you guys question Dwight's leadership skills and/or mental make up? What difference does it really make as long as you bring it on every night, which Howard does? Everyone has different personalities. Duncan is the most quitest guy around yet he's the greatest PF ever. He let his play do the talking. Dwight likes to goof around but he brings it. So who cares?

Lets Go Lakers wrote:Why do so many of you guys question Dwight's leadership skills and/or mental make up? What difference does it really make as long as you bring it on every night, which Howard does? Everyone has different personalities. Duncan is the most quitest guy around yet he's the greatest PF ever. He let his play do the talking. Dwight likes to goof around but he brings it. So who cares?

because at times it seems like dwight simply doesn't care about winning

down by 10, and he's out there laughing. dwight and kobe are not the same breed. kobe will do anything possible to win, when was the last time we were down and you saw kobe smiling and laughing? dwight is new school, kobe is old school.

would dwight ever do this?