432J wrote:

Lets Go Lakers wrote:Why do so many of you guys question Dwight's leadership skills and/or mental make up? What difference does it really make as long as you bring it on every night, which Howard does? Everyone has different personalities. Duncan is the most quitest guy around yet he's the greatest PF ever. He let his play do the talking. Dwight likes to goof around but he brings it. So who cares?

because at times it seems like dwight simply doesn't care about winning

down by 10, and he's out there laughing. dwight and kobe are not the same breed. kobe will do anything possible to win, when was the last time we were down and you saw kobe smiling and laughing? dwight is new school, kobe is old school.

would dwight ever do this?

Who gives a sh*t? Oh, so you don't like his demeanor once in a while so you don't want him on your team? Who really cares if he's differnt from Kobe? Kobe is Kobe and Dwight is Dwight. As long as Dwight brings it every night, i could care less. People are getting way too caught up with his mental make up.

Also let me add that the Magic weren't THAT far away from beating the Lakers in 2009. OK, they were but still, what happens if Lee makes that gimme lay up in game 2? And if we don't come back in game 3 down 12 points in the 2nd half? We are down 3-1. I know it's all bullsh*t hypotheticals here but Dwight had less to work with than Kobe. If Dwight wins a title, do you view him differently? Is Dwight a different person to you if he has a ring even though in reality, he's still the same guy?

Weezy wrote:That's all I'm saying, he's not a franchise carrying player to me, at least not carrying to a championship. Put another star next to him that can score and deliver in the clutch and you have something, Chris Paul would have filled that nicely, we can keep thanking Stern there. As for 22/18/3, I do think that's asking a bit much overall, at this point I'd be thrilled with him averaging the 23/14/2 he did in the '10/'11 season.

Well that's the point though, I think that asking 25/12 is asking for a bit much too. And I would still consider him carrying the franchise if he averaged 23/14/2 and someone else on our team averaged 25/10. No one does it alone. If we had ONLY Chris Paul, we wouldn't be a contender either. If we had ONLY Dwight, we wouldn't be a contender then.

There can be more than one franchise carrying player. Shaq had Kobe (then Wade), Kobe had Gasol, Jordan had Pippen, Kareem had Magic, West had a few guys, Russell had a team full of Hall of Famers

The point is he CAN be a franchise corner stone and he is still the best Center in the league today. You can't go wrong with having him on your team.

therealdeal wrote:

Weezy wrote:That's all I'm saying, he's not a franchise carrying player to me, at least not carrying to a championship. Put another star next to him that can score and deliver in the clutch and you have something, Chris Paul would have filled that nicely, we can keep thanking Stern there. As for 22/18/3, I do think that's asking a bit much overall, at this point I'd be thrilled with him averaging the 23/14/2 he did in the '10/'11 season.

Well that's the point though, I think that asking 25/12 is asking for a bit much too. And I would still consider him carrying the franchise if he averaged 23/14/2 and someone else on our team averaged 25/10. No one does it alone. If we had ONLY Chris Paul, we wouldn't be a contender either. If we had ONLY Dwight, we wouldn't be a contender then.

There can be more than one franchise carrying player. Shaq had Kobe (then Wade), Kobe had Gasol, Jordan had Pippen, Kareem had Magic, West had a few guys, Russell had a team full of Hall of Famers

The point is he CAN be a franchise corner stone and he is still the best Center in the league today. You can't go wrong with having him on your team.

Well, unless you're the 2012-2013 Lakers of course

MC wrote:Howard lead a team?



lets pretend he is putting up monster numbers and just dominating on the floor at the C position on both ends....

does he actually have the personality to be a leader?

can he crack the whip? be encouraging when need be?

or would he be all fun and games overcompensating one way because he can't do the other in a leadership type of role?

Can that be respected when crunch time hits and it's time to lead men in the hardest of moments?

can he face the media when things aren't going well as the face of the team? can he deal with the harsh questions and criticisms that come with playing in this market particularly?

To me they throw around "franchise" player way too easily........... everyone wants one but there is not really enough of them for everyone.

There are other IMPORTANT intangibles that make up a leader........... and it's not all fantasy stats on the floor.

DING DING DING

Oh but NO......Kobe is 34 and Dwight is entering his "prime" (unskilled after 9 years in as that may be) and is athletic and plays great D.

Conclusion ^^^ Kobe needs to "pass the torch" to Dwight

It's pretty funny how Laker fans were praying and hoping that Dwight became a Laker and now that he's here, so many of you are questioning his heart, his talents, his offenisve game, etc. Just nitpicking all aspects of him. Why?

We should be fortunate to have one of the top 5 players in the game right now (assuming he regains his health). He is a franchise player. He's not a complete center but how many complete centers have there been in NBA history who can truly dominate on both ends? Probably less than 10. We should lock this guy up and get a great PG and we would contend for a title for the next 8 years.

maybe having howard in there is giving our players an out in terms of being lazy on perimiter defense cause they know howard is back there thus the +/- stat?

LTLakerFan wrote:

MC wrote:Howard lead a team?



lets pretend he is putting up monster numbers and just dominating on the floor at the C position on both ends....

does he actually have the personality to be a leader?

can he crack the whip? be encouraging when need be?

or would he be all fun and games overcompensating one way because he can't do the other in a leadership type of role?

Can that be respected when crunch time hits and it's time to lead men in the hardest of moments?

can he face the media when things aren't going well as the face of the team? can he deal with the harsh questions and criticisms that come with playing in this market particularly?

To me they throw around "franchise" player way too easily........... everyone wants one but there is not really enough of them for everyone.

There are other IMPORTANT intangibles that make up a leader........... and it's not all fantasy stats on the floor.

DING DING DING

Oh but NO......Kobe is 34 and Dwight is entering his "prime" (unskilled after 9 years in as that may be) and is athletic and plays great D.

Conclusion ^^^ Kobe needs to "pass the torch" to Dwight

So what you're saying is that Dwight pretty much sucks right? Gotcha.

NOPE but he sure as hell deserves no "torch" being passed to him by Kobe Bryant

Lets Go Lakers wrote:

432J wrote:

Lets Go Lakers wrote:Why do so many of you guys question Dwight's leadership skills and/or mental make up? What difference does it really make as long as you bring it on every night, which Howard does? Everyone has different personalities. Duncan is the most quitest guy around yet he's the greatest PF ever. He let his play do the talking. Dwight likes to goof around but he brings it. So who cares?

because at times it seems like dwight simply doesn't care about winning

down by 10, and he's out there laughing. dwight and kobe are not the same breed. kobe will do anything possible to win, when was the last time we were down and you saw kobe smiling and laughing? dwight is new school, kobe is old school.

would dwight ever do this?

Who gives a sh*t? Oh, so you don't like his demeanor once in a while so you don't want him on your team? Who really cares if he's differnt from Kobe? Kobe is Kobe and Dwight is Dwight. As long as Dwight brings it every night, i could care less. People are getting way too caught up with his mental make up.

Also let me add that the Magic weren't THAT far away from beating the Lakers in 2009. OK, they were but still, what happens if Lee makes that gimme lay up in game 2? And if we don't come back in game 3 down 12 points in the 2nd half? We are down 3-1. I know it's all bullsh*t hypotheticals here but Dwight had less to work with than Kobe. If Dwight wins a title, do you view him differently? Is Dwight a different person to you if he has a ring even though in reality, he's still the same guy?

until dwight actually plays like a franchise player, i'll maintain my belief that he can't lead a team all by himself

honestly, has he played like the best center in the league this season? if anyone really thinks he has, it's a sad example of how dead the center position is in today's NBA. dwight hasn't played awful but he hasn't played great either. he's clearly not at 100% and that's obviously one factor why, the other being that playing on a team with nash, kobe, and pau, his touches have decreased from his time in orlando where he was the go to guy on a team with guys like nelson, lewis, and turkoglu. big difference

he just hasn't played spectacularly this season at all. he's been getting stopped by scrub centers like tyler zeller, hasn't played the pick and roll effectively and his post game leaves alot to be desired. (gets ball down low, turns and faces basket, 3 dribbles, hook shot, miss). i'm happy we have him on the team, it could be drew still in LA instead and pau at the C but unless his play improves, i don't see him being a major factor on this team

Lets Go Lakers wrote:It's pretty funny how Laker fans were praying and hoping that Dwight became a Laker and now that he's here, so many of you are questioning his heart, his talents, his offenisve game, etc. Just nitpicking all aspects of him. Why?

The more seasoned ones in this thread doubting some of those things were saying essentially the same thing then. Personally, I viewed the trade as a marginal improvement based on our previous center's injury history and overall mobility. Anyone that has watched Dwight and has actually seen anything but Youtubes of some of the real centers that have played the game knows that while being the best in the game today doesn't really mean squat if you are talking about the best that have played that position.

His athleticism has allowed him to perform well even in the light of very poor fundamentals.... as that athleticism is impugned it reveals that glaring lack of fundamentals and thus the evaluations of what people are seeing rather than what they thought they would see based on pure hype.

For me the lynchpin of this season was the vast improvement we made at point guard not the marginal one we made at center

This isn't that hard of a question.

We went through this with Shaq. Colts went through this with Manning. You choose the younger player if you have to choose.

Hopefully we don't have to.

Rooscooter wrote:

Lets Go Lakers wrote:It's pretty funny how Laker fans were praying and hoping that Dwight became a Laker and now that he's here, so many of you are questioning his heart, his talents, his offenisve game, etc. Just nitpicking all aspects of him. Why?

The more seasoned ones in this thread doubting some of those things were saying essentially the same thing then. Personally, I viewed the trade as a marginal improvement based on our previous center's injury history and overall mobility. Anyone that has watched Dwight and has actually seen anything but Youtubes of some of the real centers that have played the game knows that while being the best in the game today doesn't really mean squat if you are talking about the best that have played that position.

His athleticism has allowed him to perform well even in the light of very poor fundamentals.... as that athleticism is impugned it reveals that glaring lack of fundamentals and thus the evaluations of what people are seeing rather than what they thought they would see based on pure hype.

For me the lynchpin of this season was the vast improvement we made at point guard not the marginal one we made at center

What would LeBron be without his athleticism? Westbrook? Rose? These guys are great primarily because of their athleticism and skills second. It's who they are.

Everyone knows the C position is weak in this era? So what? That just makes Howard more valuable. You make it sound like he's utter trash offensively. He has some offensive moves. They aren't refined like Hakeem or Ewing but pretty reliable at times. His fortay is defense and rebounding. And he does that better than just about anyone in this era.

So why are you and others always harping on his negatives? He's a Laker RIGHT NOW. We have a CHANCE to keep this guy if we play our cards right. And you don't want to lock him up? You want to go through Smush and Kwame? Howard is a sure thing. A top 5 player (if healthy). I just don't get all this criticism of him.

retro_nights wrote:This isn't that hard of a question.

We went through this with Shaq. Colts went through this with Manning. You choose the younger player if you have to choose.

Hopefully we don't have to.

Bingo.

This is business. Again, i'm not saying throw Kobe to the side but if the situation arose where i had to pick one, it's Howard and it's a no brainer. That is if you look at it from the perspective of what's best for this franchise going forward.

Lets Go Lakers wrote:

retro_nights wrote:This isn't that hard of a question.

We went through this with Shaq. Colts went through this with Manning. You choose the younger player if you have to choose.

Hopefully we don't have to.

Bingo.

This is business. Again, i'm not saying throw Kobe to the side but if the situation arose where i had to pick one, it's Howard and it's a no brainer. That is if you look at it from the perspective of what's best for this franchise going forward.

And here we are back to this. No matter how many good posts people gave saying why Kobe would be their choice that you conveniently ignored, the only answer you want is Dwight because it's somehow a no brainer and anyone who says different doesn't care about what's best for the franchise. What a joke and a clear, pathetic, and pretty much pointless agenda.

Weezy wrote:

Lets Go Lakers wrote:

retro_nights wrote:This isn't that hard of a question.

We went through this with Shaq. Colts went through this with Manning. You choose the younger player if you have to choose.

Hopefully we don't have to.

Bingo.

This is business. Again, i'm not saying throw Kobe to the side but if the situation arose where i had to pick one, it's Howard and it's a no brainer. That is if you look at it from the perspective of what's best for this franchise going forward.

And here we are back to this. No matter how many good posts people gave saying why Kobe would be their choice that you conveniently ignored, the only answer you want is Dwight because it's somehow a no brainer and anyone who says different doesn't care about what's best for the franchise. What a joke and a clear, pathetic agenda.

Well, to be fair, most people who create posts and threads have an agenda. A lot of posts are created by people who support a particular team or player and are not open-minded to changing their minds. I think that's ok, as long as there is full disclosure to it and he's provided that.

Having an agenda shouldn't be a problem since nearly everyone has one. When a person pretends to have the opposite agenda than the one they are portraying then that's where it's a problem IMO.

I don't see anything similar to Shaq/Kobe. Shaq and Kobe fought even when they were winning.

We're a crap team right now. Tempers are flaring. I'd be surprised if guys weren't sniping at each other.

JGC wrote:

Weezy wrote:

Lets Go Lakers wrote:

retro_nights wrote:This isn't that hard of a question.

We went through this with Shaq. Colts went through this with Manning. You choose the younger player if you have to choose.

Hopefully we don't have to.

Bingo.

This is business. Again, i'm not saying throw Kobe to the side but if the situation arose where i had to pick one, it's Howard and it's a no brainer. That is if you look at it from the perspective of what's best for this franchise going forward.

And here we are back to this. No matter how many good posts people gave saying why Kobe would be their choice that you conveniently ignored, the only answer you want is Dwight because it's somehow a no brainer and anyone who says different doesn't care about what's best for the franchise. What a joke and a clear, pathetic agenda.

Well, to be fair, most people who create posts and threads have an agenda. A lot of posts are created by people who support a particular team or player and are not open-minded to changing their minds. I think that's ok, as long as there is full disclosure to it and he's provided that.

Having an agenda shouldn't be a problem since nearly everyone has one. When a person pretends to have the opposite agenda than the one they are portraying then that's where it's a problem IMO.

There's no point in defending or "being fair" when somebody won't "be fair" themselves and acknowledge the validity in both sides of the argument. I chose Kobe but I didn't say anyone who chose otherwise is dead wrong and doesn't care about the franchise going forward, I chose Kobe for reasons I gave and someone can choose Howard for their reasons. But when someone makes a thread only to get people to their side and tell anyone who disagrees with them that they don't care about the franchise and that it's a no brainer when it's clearly not and there are good arguments both ways, sorry I see no need to be fair to that post. Where can an argument go from "my side is a no brainer, and anyone who disagrees doesn't care about the franchise"? Where is the room for counterpoints when that statement is made? there is none, and when you say that as the person who made the thread you have ended your own thread. You've left no room for discussion, and you've made it clear you don't want discussion, so why should we take that stance seriously or as anything other than a joke or a pathetic agenda? You want defend what was never intended as a discussion thread in the first place, but instead a thread for someone to tell you why you're wrong and dumb if you don't pick his choice, be my guest, though I have no idea why anyone would want to do that.

Lets Go Lakers wrote:

Rooscooter wrote:

Lets Go Lakers wrote:It's pretty funny how Laker fans were praying and hoping that Dwight became a Laker and now that he's here, so many of you are questioning his heart, his talents, his offenisve game, etc. Just nitpicking all aspects of him. Why?

The more seasoned ones in this thread doubting some of those things were saying essentially the same thing then. Personally, I viewed the trade as a marginal improvement based on our previous center's injury history and overall mobility. Anyone that has watched Dwight and has actually seen anything but Youtubes of some of the real centers that have played the game knows that while being the best in the game today doesn't really mean squat if you are talking about the best that have played that position.

His athleticism has allowed him to perform well even in the light of very poor fundamentals.... as that athleticism is impugned it reveals that glaring lack of fundamentals and thus the evaluations of what people are seeing rather than what they thought they would see based on pure hype.

For me the lynchpin of this season was the vast improvement we made at point guard not the marginal one we made at center

What would LeBron be without his athleticism? Westbrook? Rose? These guys are great primarily because of their athleticism and skills second. It's who they are.

Everyone knows the C position is weak in this era? So what? That just makes Howard more valuable. You make it sound like he's utter trash offensively. He has some offensive moves. They aren't refined like Hakeem or Ewing but pretty reliable at times. His fortay is defense and rebounding. And he does that better than just about anyone in this era.

So why are you and others always harping on his negatives? He's a Laker RIGHT NOW. We have a CHANCE to keep this guy if we play our cards right. And you don't want to lock him up? You want to go through Smush and Kwame? Howard is a sure thing. A top 5 player (if healthy). I just don't get all this criticism of him.

Lebron is athletic but he also possesses the basic skill set necessary for his position..... for example if he had no left hand he would be similar to Howard not having the basic footwork for his position. Rose has athleticism but he is also probably the most skilled ball handler in the league. Without the skilled ball handling he doesn't have the avenue to use his athleticism.

Now for Howard.... the reason I've never believed that he can be a leader of a team is because his game is so dependent on others to feed him in a position to basically dunk it.... otherwise his "vaunted" efficiency is out the window. This isn't an "opinion" either.... remove his dunks from his shot attempts and see it for yourself. Also his lack of being an even "decent" free throw shooter worsens the situation and takes him out of the equation as a "closer" in close games. So he can't create efficient shots for himself and can't be counted on to close games..... how is that a leader exactly?

Also..... when does "later" come for a guy like this? He has talked a good game about improving for years but never seems to do it.

As for your assertion that we keep harping on the negatives..... really? You started this thread with the premiss that it's an "either or proposition"..... and we're being negative?.....

I've always tried to point out the "differences" in our former center and our current one in terms of overall value to the team.... when you do that you'll find that we improved from last year but not as much as most like to think it seems. Our largest potential improvement is at point guard and figuring a way to have that benefit the entire team..... not just the vet that has provided the reason for most of you guys to be here or the over hyped player that gets way too much attention..... Nash should be the difference maker for us.... not Howard. The interesting thing is that we are worse now than at anytime last year when we had no point guard and a Center most here can't stand....

Lets Go Lakers wrote:It's pretty funny how Laker fans were praying and hoping that Dwight became a Laker and now that he's here, so many of you are questioning his heart, his talents, his offenisve game, etc. Just nitpicking all aspects of him. Why?

No.

Lets Go Lakers wrote:What would LeBron be without his athleticism? Westbrook? Rose? These guys are great primarily because of their athleticism and skills second. It's who they are.

Those guys have a jumper (not the greatest, but still), can play during closing minutes, and can create for others, they are not some unskilled athletic freaks...

the NBA is all about speed and athleticism these days. which is why guys like lebron, harden, durant, westbrook, holiday, and rose among others are so successful. and that's also the reason why the lakers suck

no speed or athleticism on this team while the head coach's system is designed for the same players this team doesn't have. there's one big reason for the disaster

432J wrote:there's one big reason for the disaster

Jimmy Buss? The dumbarse who chose Mike Brown over Ric Adelman causing our team's irreversible downward spiral...

KareemTheGreat33 wrote:

432J wrote:there's one big reason for the disaster

Jimmy Buss? The dumbarse who chose Mike Brown over Ric Adelman causing our team's irreversible downward spiral...

i'm pretty sure i'm the biggest jim buss hater on this entire board and have made it clear many, many times

he is the main reason for this mess and like i've said before. as long as jim buss is calling the shots, this team isn't winning crap

Rooscooter wrote:

Lets Go Lakers wrote:

Rooscooter wrote:

Lets Go Lakers wrote:It's pretty funny how Laker fans were praying and hoping that Dwight became a Laker and now that he's here, so many of you are questioning his heart, his talents, his offenisve game, etc. Just nitpicking all aspects of him. Why?

The more seasoned ones in this thread doubting some of those things were saying essentially the same thing then. Personally, I viewed the trade as a marginal improvement based on our previous center's injury history and overall mobility. Anyone that has watched Dwight and has actually seen anything but Youtubes of some of the real centers that have played the game knows that while being the best in the game today doesn't really mean squat if you are talking about the best that have played that position.

His athleticism has allowed him to perform well even in the light of very poor fundamentals.... as that athleticism is impugned it reveals that glaring lack of fundamentals and thus the evaluations of what people are seeing rather than what they thought they would see based on pure hype.

For me the lynchpin of this season was the vast improvement we made at point guard not the marginal one we made at center

What would LeBron be without his athleticism? Westbrook? Rose? These guys are great primarily because of their athleticism and skills second. It's who they are.

Everyone knows the C position is weak in this era? So what? That just makes Howard more valuable. You make it sound like he's utter trash offensively. He has some offensive moves. They aren't refined like Hakeem or Ewing but pretty reliable at times. His fortay is defense and rebounding. And he does that better than just about anyone in this era.

So why are you and others always harping on his negatives? He's a Laker RIGHT NOW. We have a CHANCE to keep this guy if we play our cards right. And you don't want to lock him up? You want to go through Smush and Kwame? Howard is a sure thing. A top 5 player (if healthy). I just don't get all this criticism of him.

Lebron is athletic but he also possesses the basic skill set necessary for his position..... for example if he had no left hand he would be similar to Howard not having the basic footwork for his position. Rose has athleticism but he is also probably the most skilled ball handler in the league. Without the skilled ball handling he doesn't have the avenue to use his athleticism.

Now for Howard.... the reason I've never believed that he can be a leader of a team is because his game is so dependent on others to feed him in a position to basically dunk it.... otherwise his "vaunted" efficiency is out the window. This isn't an "opinion" either.... remove his dunks from his shot attempts and see it for yourself. Also his lack of being an even "decent" free throw shooter worsens the situation and takes him out of the equation as a "closer" in close games. So he can't create efficient shots for himself and can't be counted on to close games..... how is that a leader exactly?

Also..... when does "later" come for a guy like this? He has talked a good game about improving for years but never seems to do it.

As for your assertion that we keep harping on the negatives..... really? You started this thread with the premiss that it's an "either or proposition"..... and we're being negative?.....

I've always tried to point out the "differences" in our former center and our current one in terms of overall value to the team.... when you do that you'll find that we improved from last year but not as much as most like to think it seems. Our largest potential improvement is at point guard and figuring a way to have that benefit the entire team..... not just the vet that has provided the reason for most of you guys to be here or the over hyped player that gets way too much attention..... Nash should be the difference maker for us.... not Howard. The interesting thing is that we are worse now than at anytime last year when we had no point guard and a Center most here can't stand....

LeBron does have basketball skills. He has a very high IQ and is a good passer but it still doesn't change the fact that he is what he is because of his athleticism. That is his main weapon. You take away his off the charts athelticism and what is he? An average to good player. I hope you aren't going to argue this.

As for Rose, the guy's handles aren't that good. I would say there are plenty of guys with much better handles. The guy turns the ball over a lot just like Westbrook becasue they are reckless and wild. You take away the athleticism of these guys and i would say their skill level is average at best. They just blow by guys with his explosion.

And we all know that Howard can't create shots for himself. He's a C with a limited offensive game. The people who want Howard here are going off the assumption that we would get a star PG to compliment Howard.

Congo Cash wrote:

Lets Go Lakers wrote:What would LeBron be without his athleticism? Westbrook? Rose? These guys are great primarily because of their athleticism and skills second. It's who they are.

Those guys have a jumper (not the greatest, but still), can play during closing minutes, and can create for others, they are not some unskilled athletic freaks...

Yeah, they are guards and fowards. Howard is a C. Good comparison.