The only point guards that I would say are definitely better than Nash.

Westbrook
Rondo
Jrue Holiday
Chris Paul
Tony Parker
Kyrie Irving

I can see some arguments for some other players as well, but I thinks its safe to say he is a top 10 point guard.

Deron is having an off year, but he is still averaging 17/8/3.

therealdeal wrote:

Lets Go Lakers wrote:

therealdeal wrote:Do you realize that he's averaging less than his career average almost across the board? He's been extremely underwhelming in Brooklyn.

Doesn't change the simple fact that he's clearly one of the best PGs in the game. Just because he's having an off year doesn't change that.

Of course it does. Nash is a Hall of Famer, just because he's not averaging Hall of Fame numbers this season you're willing to throw him under the buss.

I'm not throwing him under the bus. I'm seeing the situation for what it is. A 39 year old player who can be an offensive wizard but a liability on the defensive end. And the same situation applies to Deron. He's obviously a top PG but just because he's having an off year, you guys throw him under the bus? I would rather take my chances on a 28 year old top PG rather than a 39 year old top PG.

I don't know what it is with this board. You guys have a facination with old veterans. I've been trying to tell this board that this team lacked youth and athleticm for more than 2 years and everyone said i was smoking something.

I could only HOPE that any of those guys could lead this offense to at least a 15-20 record

Lets Go Lakers wrote:I'm not throwing him under the bus. I'm seeing the situation for what it is. A 39 year old player who can be an offensive wizard but a liability on the defensive end. And the same situation applies to Deron. He's obviously a top PG but just because he's having an off year, you guys throw him under the bus? I would rather take my chances on a 28 year old top PG rather than a 39 year old top PG.

In the face of growing evidence that you're wrong you have yet to provide a reason why Deron Williams is better for this team, hell maybe even in general, than Steve Nash.

Neither play defense, one scores more but is very inefficient and the other assists more and is extremely efficient. Your only point is about age. So what? Age isn't everything.

Lets Go Lakers wrote:I don't know what it is with this board. You guys have a facination with old veterans. I've been trying to tell this board that this team lacked youth and athleticm for more than 2 years and everyone said i was smoking something.

If the entire board is telling you something, it's probably true.

Finwë wrote:LOL @ your second list. WTF.

This. All day.

Am I the only one that isn't as high on Dwight?

Injuries are injuries, but regardless of not being 100%, I don't see him as a first option on the court. He's a max deal player no doubt, esp. given the numbers he can put up. But hypothetically speaking for example, we could pay 2 guys like Ibaka & DeAndre Jordan for 1 Dwight.

They don't have much of a post game either, but that's 2 high energy, defensive anchor, cleaner-upper, dirty-worker doin bigs.

So I would not invest in Dwight. Unless he spends this entire summer with Hakeem & gets miraculously healthy.

I'm not sure how a summer of lifting and training is miraculous

The guy was a human juggernaut before his injury because he spent so much time dedicated to his body. He gets hurt and has to spend a lot of time off, of course he's going to look different.

If you really think Howard is replaceable by Ibaka/Jordan then there's a lot wrong there. he's head and shoulders above them NOW even WITH his injury.

I never used the word replaceable.

Salary wise, we could hypothetically get 2 decent bigs who are currently anchoring the defenses for the top 2 teams in the west.

My criticism is of his offensive game and ability to stay "healthy". I don't think he's a first option on a contender.

With our team (Kobe & Nash) if Dwight bolted (and Gasol obviously), I would be content with Jordan & Ibaka. Not calling Mitch and asking him to do this---"if Dwight bolted".

Doesn't explain why the players on the second list are better than Nash.

So where's the 12 players better than Nash, the real list?

Almost everybody here doesn't want him being the 1st offensive option on a Championship team. Hell the Lakers don't want that either, that's why they've positioned themselves to grab another player or two with him in 2-3 years.

But he's far, far more effective than anyone else in the league at his position on both sides of the ball. Even at his partial health, he's the best Center in the league. Given a full workout regimen and some time, he'd do nothing but improve. This is the first season in his 9 year career where he's had a problem staying "healthy".

therealdeal wrote:Almost everybody here doesn't want him being the 1st offensive option on a Championship team. Hell the Lakers don't want that either, that's why they've positioned themselves to grab another player or two with him in 2-3 years.

But he's far, far more effective than anyone else in the league at his position on both sides of the ball. Even at his partial health, he's the best Center in the league. Given a full workout regimen and some time, he'd do nothing but improve. This is the first season in his 9 year career where he's had a problem staying "healthy".

When healthy is the big caveat there.

I thought these numbers were really interesting http://www.82games.com/1213/1213LAL.HTM

I know we had an extensive debate about what can be gleaned from +/- number in another thread, but even in the AWFUL year Pau is having, he has a better +/- for us this season. Not sure if that really means much, especially since Howard still scores more than his opponent at the same position (first #), but the fact that lakers are a +5.9 when he's off the floor is something bothersome.

Anyway, just thought those were interesting stats that might get some convo going.

Go Lakers!

Again, his health will come with time. He came back sooner than expected and we're seeing the results: he's weaker and he's less explosive.

How much lifting do you think he did PER DAY before coming here? How much lifting do you think he's done TOTAL since he's become a Laker? Yeah, it's probably some awful fraction. It's no fault of his, just that there's no time for him to do it. When he's able to get back into that workout routine there's no reason to think he won't be able to recover and have a long, successful, healthy career.

therealdeal wrote:Again, his health will come with time. He came back sooner than expected and we're seeing the results: he's weaker and he's less explosive.

How much lifting do you think he did PER DAY before coming here? How much lifting do you think he's done TOTAL since he's become a Laker? Yeah, it's probably some awful fraction. It's no fault of his, just that there's no time for him to do it. When he's able to get back into that workout routine there's no reason to think he won't be able to recover and have a long, successful, healthy career.

Here's hoping.

phoenixrisingla wrote:

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Possibly take over Nash:

Bledsoe
Lawson
Jrue
Curry
Jennings

Credibility --> Annihilated

/obligatory

therealdeal wrote:Almost everybody here doesn't want him being the 1st offensive option on a Championship team. Hell the Lakers don't want that either, that's why they've positioned themselves to grab another player or two with him in 2-3 years.

But he's far, far more effective than anyone else in the league at his position on both sides of the ball. Even at his partial health, he's the best Center in the league. Given a full workout regimen and some time, he'd do nothing but improve. This is the first season in his 9 year career where he's had a problem staying "healthy".

I'll agree with this, but I hope we're right about him. Remember the 2009 Finals? Orlando couldn't rely on him offensively. They needed Turk & Nelson & Lewis to put up a lot of points and run plays. Defensively, no one is complaining.

If our plan is to nab a player in 2-3 years and compliment Dwight, I'll have no problems. But I hope he is not our "franchise player"......know what I mean? Unless we can pull a Kobe/Shaq and get 2 franchise players

I haven't studied Dwight film in depth but what from I've seen his offensive game is levels behind Bynum's & Shaq's. Not saying I'd want Bynum, but comparing him to the last 2 Laker bigs.

And this talk of "improvement" is fair, but this is his 9th season. He's about in his basketball prime. Lebron has developed his shot & post game (previously points of criticism that needed improvement), about 8-9 years in. Just in reference to a player of similar age and NBA draft time, & also athletically gifted.

I don't see him necessarily improving offensively ever at this point. He is what he is. When he's 100% healthy he's effective, but ugly. When he's not, he's not as effective, and VERY ugly.

I think that his offense this season is what we could expect from him pretty much at the end of his career. He can get worlds better just by being healthy. What I've seen of Dwight, his game is very much dependent on his strength (even moreso than his leaping ability and explosiveness). He doesn't have the same strength as he's used to this season in either his upper or lower body.

Everyone on the team comes off the books except for Nash and a resigned Howard in 2014-2015. That means we'd have somewhere around 20 million to work with in signing a legitimate 3rd head. That's of course assuming we don't acquire some other top player before that. Names that come available around that time are LeBron, Love, and John Wall.

Put any of those guys next to Howard and you've got something cooking.

D.B. Cooper wrote:Doesn't explain why the players on the second list are better than Nash.

So where's the 12 players better than Nash, the real list?

From the second list Jrue Holiday is better, but that's it.

Jrue Holiday? Solid player, but he's a TO machine compared to Nash.

phoenixrisingla wrote:

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Possibly take over Nash:

Bledsoe
Lawson
Jrue
Curry
Jennings

Credibility --> Annihilated

Well, I don't necessarily agree. In fact, I'd definitely take Jrue Holiday over Nash, probably Stephen Curry although his ankles scare me. On the fence about Ty Lawson and Eric Bledsoe, and leaning towards no on Jennings.

Not because they're better than Nash (although some might be close). But Nash is old, he will only get worse, this team appears to be going nowhere fast even with him at PG, and in 2 seasons from now we'll be left without a point guard.

Would I take the downgrade from Nash to Jrue Holiday now in order to have a young point guard at 25 years of age under contract in 2014? And is it much of a downgrade? Holiday is averaging 18 and 9 on 45% FG without weapons to pass to I mean, he's not playing alongside a Kobe Bryant and Dwight Howard in an MDA offense.

You know, I definitely would.

JGC wrote:

phoenixrisingla wrote:

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Possibly take over Nash:

Bledsoe
Lawson
Jrue
Curry
Jennings

Credibility --> Annihilated

Well, I don't necessarily agree. In fact, I'd definitely take Jrue Holiday over Nash, probably Stephen Curry although his ankles scare me. On the fence about Ty Lawson and Eric Bledsoe, and leaning towards no on Jennings.

Not because they're better than Nash (although some might be close). But Nash is old, he will only get worse, this team appears to be going nowhere fast even with him at PG, and in 2 seasons from now we'll be left without a point guard.

Would I take the downgrade from Nash to Jrue Holiday now in order to have a young point guard at 25 years of age under contract in 2014? And is it much of a downgrade? Holiday is averaging 18 and 9 on 45% FG without weapons to pass to I mean, he's not playing alongside a Kobe Bryant and Dwight Howard in an MDA offense.

You know, I definitely would.

Holiday is more turnover prone than Nash, and Curry is a great scorer but doesnt facilitate as well as Nash does (around 3 less assists per game). Plus Holiday will be getting paid next year.

I'm not saying those guys are scrubs, but definitely not near Nash's level.

Yes he's old, but he's not playing like it right now. I know you cant remove age and the possibility of wearing down as a factor, but if you did that, these guys arent close to Nash.

That was the only point of my post. If Nash starts looking his age, may I reserve the right now switch sides on this arguement?

phoenixrisingla wrote:

JGC wrote:

phoenixrisingla wrote:

Lets Go Lakers wrote:
Possibly take over Nash:

Bledsoe
Lawson
Jrue
Curry
Jennings

Credibility --> Annihilated

Well, I don't necessarily agree. In fact, I'd definitely take Jrue Holiday over Nash, probably Stephen Curry although his ankles scare me. On the fence about Ty Lawson and Eric Bledsoe, and leaning towards no on Jennings.

Not because they're better than Nash (although some might be close). But Nash is old, he will only get worse, this team appears to be going nowhere fast even with him at PG, and in 2 seasons from now we'll be left without a point guard.

Would I take the downgrade from Nash to Jrue Holiday now in order to have a young point guard at 25 years of age under contract in 2014? And is it much of a downgrade? Holiday is averaging 18 and 9 on 45% FG without weapons to pass to I mean, he's not playing alongside a Kobe Bryant and Dwight Howard in an MDA offense.

You know, I definitely would.

Holiday is more turnover prone than Nash, and Curry is a great scorer but doesnt facilitate as well as Nash does (around 3 less assists per game). Plus Holiday will be getting paid next year.

I'm not saying those guys are scrubs, but definitely not near Nash's level.

Yes he's old, but he's not playing like it right now. I know you cant remove age and the possibility of wearing down as a factor, but if you did that, these guys arent close to Nash.

That was the only point of my post. If Nash starts looking his age, may I reserve the right now switch sides on this arguement?

He may be more turnover prone than Nash, but Bryant is more turnover prone than almost every SG in the league.

If Jrue Holiday played for us, do you think he'd do better than 11 and 9? I think he most definitely would. ALbeit, at a lower percentage and with more turnovers but more production so we can say maybe that's a wash. Better defense too although he is no juggernaut there.

Ok, if you eliminate the fact that Nash is equally close to being able to get the senior citizen discount at the movies, as Holiday is to being Nash's age then I guess that changes the argument entirely.

I think you can switch sides, but you have to pick one now without the benefit of knowing how long Nash can continue to be effective. You also have to pick one without knowing whether we even have a point guard on this team in 2014.

That's why I would do the Nash for Holiday without hesitation right now. Because the dropoff is marginal, we're not going anywhere anyway (what would be the point in having an old player unless we're contending every year), and it gives me a good player to start with in 2014 when everyone is off the books. And even then he'll be TWENTY FIVE still not even having entered his prime. He'll only get better.

^ I mean, ultimately, that's the issue.

For what purpose would you want to have Nash in lieu of a 18 and 9 point guard who is 22 years old? Maybe if you're contending every year and you don't want to mess with success then ok. But if we're missing the playoffs then what would be the point of keeping players who are declining over time, in favor of players who are on the upswing?

Given our situation, I would evaluate people based on who can help us win RIGHT NOW. I'm all for taking some chances on getting young legs in here... once we're back to being at least a playoff team.

IMO Nash gives us a better chance at turning this season around and (possibly ) next season than any of those other players by a fairly wide margin. I mean when I watched the games with him vs w/o him it seems to me that after improving our defense, the most important thing this needs is someone making good decisions and running the offence efficiently. Not only is nash head and shoulders above those other guys in terms of this, and his stats are better too.

Seems like a no brainer to fix this quickly to me.

Let's bring one in on Nash's 3rd year and have Steve mentor him, possibly even come off the bench.