^^^^

Show me where i said Magic was perfect and made no mistakes?

Lets Go Lakers wrote:

John3:16 wrote:

Rooscooter wrote:He was still the reason those teams won in spite of the revisionist history out there....

Agree.

Lets Go Lakers wrote:It was Magic. Without Magic, we win ZERO rings.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1980_finals.html

Notice games played and then look at the stats.

Magic didn't take over the team until his MVP season (85), which interestingly, Kareem won the Finals MVP. And Magic was definitely the center of attention at that point on and the main reason we won. Prior to that, it was Kareem. As Pat Riley said, "we were conceited in the way we'd throw the ball into the big fella and know he'd score."

Your point is what? That both were important? Did i say otherwise? I'm simply saying that if i had to pick one guy as top dog for this dynasty, it was Magic that drove the ship from start to finish. No doubt Kareem was top dog to start it off but Magic soon took over as "the man".

My point is what? Seriously? If you can't decipher what my point is, there is no point in discussing it further. It's clearly over your head. Good day sir.

Lets Go Lakers wrote:^^^^

Show me where i said Magic was perfect and made no mistakes?

Mistakes are one thing..... mistakes in the finals against Boston are another.... unforgivable if you have been a Laker fan as long as I have..... especially when the clock is right in front of you. You know it was Laker fans that gave him the nickname "Tragic" don't you?....

Imagine this site..... playing the hated Heat and Nash runs the clock down while Kobe is one on one in the post..... what kind of threads do you think we'd have then?.......

He was a huge part of those teams and he was the face of the franchise and rejuvenated the NBA when it looked dead, but he wasn't the leader of the team until the late 80's IMO. Kareem was not approachable nor did he possess the effervescent personality of Magic and his legacy has suffered IMO because of that..... not because of his abilities on the floor.

Listen, I've been pretty critical of Kobe as of late, but this question, I'm not feeling it. Kobe is a Laker for life. To even consider anything else would be like trading Magic, West, Baylor, Kareem. Basically it would be blasphemy. You don't trade a legend that has played his entire career here. You just don't. Some things are just more important and what makes the Lakers special is our tradition, and one of our traditions is loyalty to superstars who have shown the same loyalty in return.

Soooo many people under appropriate Kareem who was the absolute key to showtime.... don't control the boards and there is no showtime. Don't control the paint in the playoffs and showtime would be a pretty team that won nothing. That was a lot of Cap...... he allowed them to play showtime.... defend, rebound, OUTLET then attack and if it's not there dump in the post and run the offense threw Kareem once he got down the floor. ....... magic got majority of the glory but make no mistake about it.... there is no showtime without Cap controlling those boards and initiating the break.

Now only if MDA can make this small tweak in his philosophy....... he might just be dangerous than.

The same thing holds true with talented bigs..... gotta feed the big dog somehow someway if you want him to work....... if MDA tweaked his philosophy just a bit in order to reward his bigs on the one end he might find out he would all of a sudden be a defensive genius too.

MC wrote:Soooo many people under appropriate Kareem who was the absolute key to showtime.... don't control the boards and there is no showtime. Don't control the paint in the playoffs and showtime would be a pretty team that won nothing. That was a lot of Cap...... he allowed them to play showtime.... defend, rebound, attack and it's not there dump in the post and run the offense threw Kareem. ....... magic got majority of the glory but make no mistake about it.... there is no showtime without Cap controlling those boards and initiating the break.

Kareem and Magic are neck and neck to me as the best basketball players in history. I'd take either over Jordan. I don't care what critics or other people say. Call me biased, whatever. No one watching Laker basketball during the 80's didn't idolize Kareem. I know I did as a kid watching him play, then going on to the court and attempting, badly I may add, to shoot hook shots. Those guys were like gods to me as a kid.

I think this is a pretty ridiculous, and almost angering thread to be honest. Not because of the question asked at all, it's a legit question to ask when looking to our future form here on out, but because of the OP's clear agenda. You make a thread asking which player we take going forward, but you want only one answer coming into it, and if that answer isn't given you accuse the poster of being a Kobe first fan, not all about the Lakers, having their loyalty in the wrong place. Why ask the question if you only want one answer? To prove some point to yourself that you know how everyone here thinks or what type of fan they are and that only you are the one above it all and in the right, and/or to split the board into "fanboy" groups as Roos brought up obviously. Pretty sad if you ask me, and it's not like I'm pulling this out of thin air, you pretty much said it yourself

Lets Go Lakers wrote:If you are a fan of the team before a fan of Kobe, i don't see how you can logically stick with Kobe if you had to pick one.

Lets Go Lakers wrote:I'm pretty surprised at some of the replies and how offended some of you are. I thought the answer is a no brainer (in favor of Dwight) when you look at what's best for the franchise moving forward but i guess loyalty runs deep.

So if we pick Kobe we're not a fan of the Lakers first, we're not logical, and only your answer if the correct one and best for the franchise, but we're blinded by loyalty to Kobe. Nice try man. And as for this

Lets Go Lakers wrote:Howard is a franchise player. Just as Bynum is a franchise player when healthy. You don't need to be an all time great to be a franchise player, just a dominant player. Yeah, he lacks an offensive game but his fortay is defense, rebounding and putbacks. You pair him with a great PG and he would thrive.

When healthy, Dwight is a top 3 player IMO. Top 5 at worst.

Howard IS a franchise player, if you don't really care about your franchise winning a championship. Howard the way he is now is never going to be the number one star on a championship team, you put a guy like LeBron next to him sure, but then he's not the number one guy. He can't make free throws, his offense is extremely limited, he never puts up even 20 PPG, and has to me shown he can't be a THE go-to guy. You show me another guy that has those same flaws that has won a championship as the franchise player and I will agree that Howard can do the same. Same goes for Bynum, show me proof of him being a franchise player that can actually win anything and I'll agree.

If Howard is top 5, Kobe's still ahead of him on that list, so I still take Kobe going forward. This year it's LeBron, Durant, Melo, Kobe, and you can 'pick em' from there, but I'm not sure Dwight has played well enough to earn that 5th spot, might go to Chris Paul right now. You say when healthy, ok well, we have no idea if Dwight will ever be the same again, and if him being great depends that much on athleticism, well then once again you're in trouble going forward choosing him as your franchise player because eventually he's gonna lose that anyway. Kobe lost that a while ago and his game hasn't suffered a bit, even his post game is better than Howard's, the best center in the NBA. Give me 2 seasons of Kobe Bryant, proven winner, proven champion, still playing at an elite level, over a 4 year max contract of Dwight Howard, who may or may not lead you to anything. So go ahead and tell me I'm still wrong, I know you won't be swayed by anyone's opinion here, your agenda is clear. I'll take the guy who has proven he can win, you take the guy who might be able to win if he has enough of the right players around him, players to cover for all his weaknesses and flaws. I'll roll with Kobe for 2 seasons and always have that chance to win that he gives you and then take my chances in free agency over choosing Dwight and most likely not winning a thing. So few players really and truly have what it takes to be champions, it's why the same players and franchises are almost always the ones that win it, and I'm just not seeing what it takes in Dwight to get the job done in the end.

Wow this is getting really ugly

I'll go with the guy who knows what its like to win as a leader and also as a co-leader.

You can keep the guy who doesnt know how to win either way and consistently gives less than 100% effort if everything isnt about him getting everything he wants.

@ a HEALTHY Dwight Howard not being a franchise player.

Stop it. The man took a bunch of a role players to the Finals in 2009.

He's nowhere near full health and still putting up 17 & 13.

The only reason he never win anything in Orlando was the same reason Kobe never won without Shaq or Pau. Not enough talent.

This current just isn't that good. Dwight isn't healthy, Nash and Kobe are still great, but Pau is done. World Peace is inconsistent, Jamison can't crack the rotation for some reason, and everyone else sucks.

This BS about him not being good offensively is exactly that BS. When healthy he's been essentially a 20 & 10 man. You don't do that if you're limited offensively. If healthy there's only two players better. Kobe his teammate and LeBron.

So much disrespect at Kareem while giving Magic all the credit, it's sickening...

20 and 10 isn't good enough, sorry, it's not. When Shaq says Dwight should be averaging near 30 he's right, if Howard were that good on offense, if he's a true all around superstar, then he should be able to put up as many points as the other superstars of the game (LeBron, Durant, Kobe, Melo, etc.) and he has never come close to that. I agreed he was a franchise player, just not a championship winning caliber franchise player as he is now, he needs to step it up offensively, learn some more damn moves than the 2 he has. What he did in 2009 was impressive no question, he beat LeBron's team when he wasn't close to favored, but to say he only had role players, come on, the team wasn't full of stars but the players perfectly complimented Howard. He had Richardson, Turkeyglue, Lewis, Pietrus, Gortat, and a very good young Courtney Lee. Nice of you to grace us with your aged wisdom and once again laugh at us as your argument though, so well thought out and respectful. Seriously, grow up.

Whoa 30 a night from a post guy? As maybe the number 2/3 option? You're asking for way too much... as was Shaq. Especially seeing how he's not totally healthy.

Texas Lakers Fan wrote::man10: @ a HEALTHY Dwight Howard not being a franchise player.

Stop it. The man took a bunch of a role players to the Finals in 2009.

He's nowhere near full health and still putting up 17 & 13.

The only reason he never win anything in Orlando was the same reason Kobe never won without Shaq or Pau. Not enough talent.

This current just isn't that good. Dwight isn't healthy, Nash and Kobe are still great, but Pau is done. World Peace is inconsistent, Jamison can't crack the rotation for some reason, and everyone else sucks.

This BS about him not being good offensively is exactly that BS. When healthy he's been essentially a 20 & 10 man. You don't do that if you're limited offensively. If healthy there's only two players better. Kobe his teammate and LeBron.

WTH? Didn't you just say on Saturday that the Lakers were going to win 50 games, get the 6th seed and win the championship?

In just 2 days they went from contender to no good??

therealdeal wrote:Whoa 30 a night from a post guy? As maybe the number 2/3 option? You're asking for way too much... as was Shaq. Especially seeing how he's not totally healthy.

Sorry, I should clarify, I meant if Howard were that good on offense he should have been averaging that when he was the man on his teams at least the last few seasons in Orlando. When I say near 30, I mean like 28, hell even 25 ppg would be more impressive, but the most he's ever averaged is 22.9, he's 18.4 for his career. Those are good numbers, but they aren't to me the sign of a great offensive player, that's all I'm saying. There's no question what Dwight brings on defense, with rebounding, but as far as offense goes, he's limited to say the least, we've seen it plenty now. Right now, on this team, taking all the shooting Kobe does into account, but that Pau doesn't want to score, and that Nash is back as an assist guy, he should be getting at least his highest at 22 ppg IMO. Maybe I'm asking too much, and obviously he isn't Shaq, but if he's a superstar I don't see how that's out of the question. To me it comes down somewhat to desire, he needs to demand the ball, and he needs to bully his way to the rim more, and yes I realize he's still not 100% but who knows if he ever will be.

Weezy wrote:

therealdeal wrote:Whoa 30 a night from a post guy? As maybe the number 2/3 option? You're asking for way too much... as was Shaq. Especially seeing how he's not totally healthy.

Sorry, I should clarify, I meant if Howard were that good on offense he should have been averaging that when he was the man on his teams at least the last few seasons in Orlando. When I say near 30, I mean like 28, hell even 25 ppg would be more impressive, but the most he's ever averaged is 22.9, he's 18.4 for his career. Those are good numbers, but they aren't to me the sign of a great offensive player, that's all I'm saying. There's no question what Dwight brings on defense, with rebounding, but as far as offense goes, he's limited to say the least, we've seen it plenty now. Right now, on this team, taking all the shooting Kobe does into account, but that Pau doesn't want to score, and that Nash is back as an assist guy, he should be getting at least his highest at 22 ppg IMO. Maybe I'm asking too much, but if he's a superstar I don't see how that's out of the question.

Well he's hurt. And I actually think that he's not really that kind of Center. I agree with the people putting him more in the Bill Russell mold. Everyone knows his biggest impact is defensively and on the glass. His offensive game is based on strength and athleticism like we've been saying. WIthout it, his offensive game isn't what we need, but more than we might have expected.

therealdeal wrote:Whoa 30 a night from a post guy? As maybe the number 2/3 option? You're asking for way too much... as was Shaq. Especially seeing how he's not totally healthy.

30 is pushing it, Duncan, Dirk and KG never averaged 30. I'm not sure Dream even averaged that, only a few big men have come close to hitting that mark, I know Kareem did it, Wilt, Shaq was at 29.something, maybe Moses Malone, this is just off top.

I think Dwight could put up close to what Duncan put up in his prime, around 22-25ppg, that would be huge. Those are definitely franchise numbers for a 2 way big man. If Howard was averaging that for us now, we'd have a lot more wins than we do now. Dwight would have to expand his offensive skill set to do that, Dirk, Duncan and KG are light years ahead of Dwight when it comes to offensive skills. Also if his athleticism doesn't come back, he'll have to expand his game if he wants to put up 22.9 again but if he was doing that now what a difference that would make for us.

Shaq is a troll. There's no way in hell that Dwight is gonna be averaging 30 ppg on this team. Not with Kobe Bryant on the roster. I love Kobe to death, but takes alot of shots and rightfully so. However Howard just doesn't get nearly enough attempts or touches to be averaging that many points. As others mentioned some of the greatest bigs of all time never averaged 30. KG, Duncan, amongst others. It's hard as hell to do. Only chance is if you're the clear cut top dog on the team and Dwight isn't right now.

So then how is Dwight a championship caliber franchise player if he can't averaege more than 22 ppg then? That's all I'm asking, what franchise player that has led his team to a title in the last say, 20 to 30 years has averaged that low? Duncan maybe? You have to surround him with talent that perfectly makes up for his flaws to win is what I'm saying. A great PG like Tony Parker is to Duncan, a guy that can pour in the points to make up for Dwight not being able to, or multiple guys that can, shooters, etc. I think Bill Russell is a good comparison, but you're referencing a guy there who won his last title over 40 years ago. I'm not knocking him at all, jut saying that style of franchise player isn't really what carries teams to titles in today's NBA.

How can he average 22 ppg when he's playing with Kobe? Other than Shaq, Kobe has never had a teammate average 20 ppg or more. Doesn't mean he ain't a franchise player. All it means is the opportunity isn't there consistently for Dwight to put up those type numbers. When Kobe retires it will be and then I'm sure you'll see him average 20 + ppg.

Weezy wrote:So then how is Dwight a championship caliber franchise player if he can't averaege more than 22 ppg then? That's all I'm asking, what franchise player that has led his team to a title in the last say, 20 to 30 years has averaged that low? Duncan maybe? You have to surround him with talent that perfectly makes up for his flaws to win is what I'm saying. A great PG like Tony Parker is to Duncan, a guy that can pour in the points to make up for Dwight not being able to, or multiple guys that can, shooters, etc. I think Bill Russell is a good comparison, but you're referencing a guy there who won his last title over 40 years ago. I'm not knocking him at all, jut saying that style of franchise player isn't really what carries teams to titles in today's NBA.

So your saying we should drop the "two towers" mentality and play small ball like the rest of the NBA?

JGC wrote:

Texas Lakers Fan wrote::man10: @ a HEALTHY Dwight Howard not being a franchise player.

Stop it. The man took a bunch of a role players to the Finals in 2009.

He's nowhere near full health and still putting up 17 & 13.

The only reason he never win anything in Orlando was the same reason Kobe never won without Shaq or Pau. Not enough talent.

This current just isn't that good. Dwight isn't healthy, Nash and Kobe are still great, but Pau is done. World Peace is inconsistent, Jamison can't crack the rotation for some reason, and everyone else sucks.

This BS about him not being good offensively is exactly that BS. When healthy he's been essentially a 20 & 10 man. You don't do that if you're limited offensively. If healthy there's only two players better. Kobe his teammate and LeBron.

WTH? Didn't you just say on Saturday that the Lakers were going to win 50 games, get the 6th seed and win the championship?

In just 2 days they went from contender to no good??

LOL all I said was that it was stupid to blame Kobe for our struggles. Statistically he's having an MVP year.

What's the obsession with scoring? Duncan is a 20/10 type of guy with great D too. No player is actually playing the sort of DPOY level defense that Dwight Howard did and putting up 25+ points within the flow of a good offense. Shaq did for maybe 1 or 2 years... but honestly, he was at an unreal level, and that came in the pre hand-check era. The rules of the game have changed to favor perimeter players on offense. Dwight doesn't need to score more than 20 a game... he's capable of making Top 5 impact with 20 PPG, once he's perfectly healthy and playing DPOY level defense.

KBJelleyBean24 wrote:

Weezy wrote:So then how is Dwight a championship caliber franchise player if he can't averaege more than 22 ppg then? That's all I'm asking, what franchise player that has led his team to a title in the last say, 20 to 30 years has averaged that low? Duncan maybe? You have to surround him with talent that perfectly makes up for his flaws to win is what I'm saying. A great PG like Tony Parker is to Duncan, a guy that can pour in the points to make up for Dwight not being able to, or multiple guys that can, shooters, etc. I think Bill Russell is a good comparison, but you're referencing a guy there who won his last title over 40 years ago. I'm not knocking him at all, jut saying that style of franchise player isn't really what carries teams to titles in today's NBA.

So your saying we should drop the "two towers" mentality and play small ball like the rest of the NBA?

Small ball, no, but drop the two towers mentality yeah, that hasn't won us a title for a while (and even then Bynum wasn't a huge factor in those titles it was Odom), and it hasn't won anyone else a title in years either. Lakers - Shaq and Kobe, Spurs - Ducan, Parker, Ginobili, Pistons - Billups, Hamilton, Sheed, Wallace (not exactly twin towers, just one defensive big, one offensive, we don't have that in Pau anymore), Miami - Wade and Shaq, Boston - KG, Pierce, Allen, Lakers again - Kobe, Pau, Odom (not exactly twin towers), Dallas - Dirk, Terry, Kidd, Chandler, Miami - LeBron, Wade, Bosh. Who in there really won with twin towers? So no not small ball, but the league is a guards and forwards league now. I would say a lot of those teams I mentioned had mostly average to crap big men other than their starters, and sometimes including their starters, there just aren't good centers anymore.