End of an Era

Re: End of an Era

Postby Snake Eyes on Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:35 pm

Great post Roo! Yeah, when I saw this photo last night, most people were happy. But it made me sad. That is when it sunk in. This era of Lakers ball is coming to an end. It's like Kobe and Pau are walking into the sunset (so to speak).

Yet, it is exciting because it means we will eventually get some fresh new blood to carry this franchise to greatness.
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Re: End of an Era

Postby Rooscooter on Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:30 pm

To the reoccurring theme of ownership. Jerry Buss got started with the momentum that Cooke left. Both of the number 1 picks that netted us Magic and Worthy were the result of the Cooke Ownership not the Buss one. Jerry's first real intervention in the team was the firing of Westhead. That was heralded as a massive mistake by almost everyone.... how could you let a player dictate who your coach was? Especially with a 7-4 record coming off a championship just 16 months earlier. Buss did this to have one last attempt at saving Kareem and it worked.

Our dominance since then.... with the 90's gap... was mostly due to the fact that we could out spend any other team for the most part and the CBA's were not that punitive for over-spenders. That's changed and that change is more important to me than our Owner. Losing Howard wasn't because of ownership other than the decision to go all in last year... that wasn't just a Jimmy decision.

The league has changed.... players have changed and the approach needs to change. I'll give Jimmy a little slack.... losing Howard has little to do with him and I happen to like the fact he stuck by his decision on MDA.... don't get me wrong.... I don't think he's a very good coach but he didn't let Howard walk all over this great franchise and that counts for something with me.

Howard is a good player but he's not the kind you rebuild around IMHO. I've taken some heat over the last year or so about my opinion on this and I still feel the same way. Long term this team is better off without him.

Mitch is the one that needs to change his thinking IMO. The swing for the fences stuff needs to be stopped and we need scouting and drafts to rebuild. Moving our pieces this summer for the future would seem like the best way to do it but I'll give him some slack as well. This is a tough situation that has come at the end of a historic run. The Kobe Era has lasted longer than Showtime.... lets not forget that.... with a miracle it may have one more gasp in it.... who knows?.....
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Re: End of an Era

Postby TIME on Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:57 pm

Rooscooter wrote:To the reoccurring theme of ownership. Jerry Buss got started with the momentum that Cooke left. Both of the number 1 picks that netted us Magic and Worthy were the result of the Cooke Ownership not the Buss one. Jerry's first real intervention in the team was the firing of Westhead. That was heralded as a massive mistake by almost everyone.... how could you let a player dictate who your coach was? Especially with a 7-4 record coming off a championship just 16 months earlier. Buss did this to have one last attempt at saving Kareem and it worked.

Our dominance since then.... with the 90's gap... was mostly due to the fact that we could out spend any other team for the most part and the CBA's were not that punitive for over-spenders. That's changed and that change is more important to me than our Owner. Losing Howard wasn't because of ownership other than the decision to go all in last year... that wasn't just a Jimmy decision.

The league has changed.... players have changed and the approach needs to change. I'll give Jimmy a little slack.... losing Howard has little to do with him and I happen to like the fact he stuck by his decision on MDA.... don't get me wrong.... I don't think he's a very good coach but he didn't let Howard walk all over this great franchise and that counts for something with me.

Howard is a good player but he's not the kind you rebuild around IMHO. I've taken some heat over the last year or so about my opinion on this and I still feel the same way. Long term this team is better off without him.

Mitch is the one that needs to change his thinking IMO. The swing for the fences stuff needs to be stopped and we need scouting and drafts to rebuild. Moving our pieces this summer for the future would seem like the best way to do it but I'll give him some slack as well. This is a tough situation that has come at the end of a historic run. The Kobe Era has lasted longer than Showtime.... lets not forget that.... with a miracle it may have one more gasp in it.... who knows?.....


I guess we just see this differently then.

Jerry Buss did not just fall into some awesome thing that JKC built. Yes, the #1 draft pick was there, but Jerry made the decision to draft Magic when even West wanted Moncrief. That was just the first in a long series of right / lucky / savvy decisions JB made. Firing Westhead was forced by Magic, but when West punted to Riley JB was the one with the guts and people evaluation skills to see something in Riley that no one else saw.

I also don't think any of our success was due to simply being in a position to outspend teams. The Knicks have spent more $$$ than any other franchise in the last 40 years with zero trophies to show for it.

Also disagree about Jimmy's role in the MDA / Dwight fiasco. By all accounts I've read Dwight's decision had everything to do with his unwillingness to play for MDA and his lack of confidence in Jim Buss as an owner. We may be better off without D12 in the long run, but Jim Buss wanted him and flat bungled keeping him.

I'm going to completely disagree on Mitch. I just don't get how you can look at the current sad state of this team and conclude the real problem is Mitch swinging for the fences.
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Re: End of an Era

Postby Lakerjones on Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:02 pm

^^ TIME, you and I see things very, very similarly in all of these points.
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Re: End of an Era

Postby Rooscooter on Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:22 pm

TIME wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:To the reoccurring theme of ownership. Jerry Buss got started with the momentum that Cooke left. Both of the number 1 picks that netted us Magic and Worthy were the result of the Cooke Ownership not the Buss one. Jerry's first real intervention in the team was the firing of Westhead. That was heralded as a massive mistake by almost everyone.... how could you let a player dictate who your coach was? Especially with a 7-4 record coming off a championship just 16 months earlier. Buss did this to have one last attempt at saving Kareem and it worked.

Our dominance since then.... with the 90's gap... was mostly due to the fact that we could out spend any other team for the most part and the CBA's were not that punitive for over-spenders. That's changed and that change is more important to me than our Owner. Losing Howard wasn't because of ownership other than the decision to go all in last year... that wasn't just a Jimmy decision.

The league has changed.... players have changed and the approach needs to change. I'll give Jimmy a little slack.... losing Howard has little to do with him and I happen to like the fact he stuck by his decision on MDA.... don't get me wrong.... I don't think he's a very good coach but he didn't let Howard walk all over this great franchise and that counts for something with me.

Howard is a good player but he's not the kind you rebuild around IMHO. I've taken some heat over the last year or so about my opinion on this and I still feel the same way. Long term this team is better off without him.

Mitch is the one that needs to change his thinking IMO. The swing for the fences stuff needs to be stopped and we need scouting and drafts to rebuild. Moving our pieces this summer for the future would seem like the best way to do it but I'll give him some slack as well. This is a tough situation that has come at the end of a historic run. The Kobe Era has lasted longer than Showtime.... lets not forget that.... with a miracle it may have one more gasp in it.... who knows?.....


I guess we just see this differently then.

Jerry Buss did not just fall into some awesome thing that JKC built. Yes, the #1 draft pick was there, but Jerry made the decision to draft Magic when even West wanted Moncrief. That was just the first in a long series of right / lucky / savvy decisions JB made. Firing Westhead was forced by Magic, but when West punted to Riley JB was the one with the guts and people evaluation skills to see something in Riley that no one else saw.

I also don't think any of our success was due to simply being in a position to outspend teams. The Knicks have spent more $$$ than any other franchise in the last 40 years with zero trophies to show for it.

Also disagree about Jimmy's role in the MDA / Dwight fiasco. By all accounts I've read Dwight's decision had everything to do with his unwillingness to play for MDA and his lack of confidence in Jim Buss as an owner. We may be better off without D12 in the long run, but Jim Buss wanted him and flat bungled keeping him.

I'm going to completely disagree on Mitch. I just don't get how you can look at the current sad state of this team and conclude the real problem is Mitch swinging for the fences.


Well.... we will have to agree to disagree then....

I will add is that Jimmy wanted Bynum.... Mitch and Co wanted May... No Howard without Bynum. Jimmy was the one that thwarted the Kidd and JO trades for Bynum as well if the "insiders" are to be believed. So I will at least put a couple marks in his ledger for that....

I don't believe Howard for one minute on the Coaching thing.... his issue is with Kobe and not having a "kindred spirit" on the team. The MDA/Ownership stuff was cover IMO. He didn't want to play second fiddle to Kobe for 3 more years and he didn't want to play on a team that wasn't going to be good next year.

Dr. and JW did make some good decisions (I'd still take Wilkens 10 time out of 10 however) but to say we weren't good because we didn't spend money is not really right. Yeah the Knicks spent a bunch recently but we were outspending the Celtics nearly 1.5 to 1 during showtime most of those years. The C's finally had to stop trying to keep up with us as they actually lost money most of those years if Red is to be believed.

I'm not saying we stumbled into our success as you seem to be implying but I'd also say that we made mistakes along the way but those were spaced out by a lot of good decisions.

We'll be fine I think. You seem overly pessimistic... Howard is not the kind of player we need on this team. Our biggest issue is the residue of the Phil era and our run. He didn't like the younger players and player development. Bynum was our only example of developing a decent player in the last 15 years..... that is our problem now... and it's even more of an issue under the new CBA. We got the Chips and now we have to pay for them it seems.

If they play it right we can get the younger players and start over... however the business side of things dictates that the Buss Family meet certain "eyeball" goals with the new TV contract they signed last year.... that will dictate that they get a star of some sort... that is why there was the push for Dwight IMO.... not because they saw him as the next Era's leader.
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Re: End of an Era

Postby OX1947 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:28 pm

It is an end of an era unless something happens next summer where Lebron heads this way. If that doesn't happen, lakers have a shot in 2015 to go after Kevin Durant(if he doesn't re-up) and Kyrie Irving(If he doesn't re-up). If not, Kobe Era is klosed.
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Re: End of an Era

Postby GNC on Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:36 pm

Roos :bow:

As this era ends another begins- nervous, but excited to see what is to come.
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Re: End of an Era

Postby gcclaker on Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:39 pm

Rooscooter wrote:...that they will rise again....they will find the top players again and they will win again.

Yes...there's another one 'round the corner. Caveat: Jim Buss has to get his coaching hires right.
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Re: End of an Era

Postby dmaul on Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:43 pm

Nice optimism. I like the historical perspective as well. I've been a fan since 1985 so like most people, I've only experienced mostly highs and few lows. All of this happened under the watch of Jerry Buss and if he were still around, a younger and healthier man with more years ahead of him, none of us would have any doubt whatsoever that this thing gets turned around as soon as possible. But he's not and his son most likely will come no where close to the bar that he set. Add to that the latest CBA and you can see why it's more than reasonable and not pessimistic to think that we're in for a long drought.
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Re: End of an Era

Postby Kangaroo Grandkid on Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:38 pm

Roos, I can agree with most of what you said (I know, it's gratifying to get props from a guy on his third post).

Dmaul, sorry, have to disagree. I'm not confident that a still-living, healthy Dr. Buss would get us out of this mess any sooner. For me, it's been pretty darn obvious, for the past several years, that this train wreck was coming. We completely mortgaged the future for the sake of winning now (and it largely worked). We've been giving up more and more assets and having fewer and fewer options to round out the team. When was the last time we weren't complaining about the bench?

I'm not saying I regret it. Just that it should have been clear that it was coming time to pay the piper.

I'm glad Dwight is gone. I'm just ticked that he made the bonehead decision to go to Houston. GS was clearly a better choice, and I believe that, posturing aside, Mitch would've agreed to S&T him and we would have gotten a faster start on the rebuild in Barnes & Thompson (I'm sure we would have gotten both since were going to have to take Bogut).

On the plus side, the Buss' save almost a $100 Million in tax this year. That's big.
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Re: End of an Era

Postby The Rock on Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:56 pm

I didnt ask Metta when I saw him today but someone in our crew did, about Dwight. He said "LA is for men" and repeated it a couple of times and then said he felt crazy pressure/criticism too in 2009 when he arrived in LA but he dealt with it by going to sports psychologist and that helped a lot. Instead of dealing with it Dwight ran from it. Ron still loves HOU a lot and thinks they'll do well this year....lets hope he doesnt get ideas when he gets amnestied here. HOU is over the cap now right?? They shouldn't be able to claim him off the waivers once he gets cut
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Re: End of an Era

Postby jlkr on Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:39 am

Another old fart here: my fanhood barely predates Wilt's presence on the team. Yes I remember when Baylor and West once scored 43 pts each in the same game. I remember being so disappointed when they lost to the Celtics in 65, 66, 68 and 69. 84 was sheer agony. That made 85 the absolute single best title they ever won, better yet, they won it on Boston's floor.

Anyway, for you young whippersnappers, there's only one constant in the NBA: players get older, then they're too old to play. You may know Russell, Baylor, Chamberlain and West only as legends: I saw them play live. But they all had to retire and look at them today, Chamberlain is long gone and the rest are old men. I've always said in recent years, better enjoy Kobe now while we still have him cuz the end for him may be thisclose now. So yes I think we are virtually at the end of this era. But after all my lambasting the Baseball Cap Boy, I was just reminded how much I had forgotten how his daddy was initially received 34 years ago on buying the team as well as the Kings and the Forum from Jack Kent Cooke. So ok I'm willing to give Baseball Cap Boy the benefit of the doubt for now.
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I took the one less traveled by,
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Re: End of an Era

Postby Snake Eyes on Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:56 am

jlkr wrote: I've always said in recent years, better enjoy Kobe now while we still have him cuz the end for him may be thisclose now.


I am so happy that I realized this soon after Kobe's trade demands in 07. I had never been a big fan of his, even though I knew how great he was and all that he did for the franchise. At the same time I was always kicking myself in the butt for not watching Jordan more as a kid. Then something clicked and I realized I shouldn't drink the Kobe haterade because I'll kick my butt down the line for not fully appreciating what he does for the team. He still isn't my favorite player or Laker but I sure as hell appreciate him to the fullest. Kobe's awesome and I will be very sad to see him go.
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Re: End of an Era

Postby Finwë on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:15 am

Thanks for a good read. I tend to agree on your conclusion
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: End of an Era

Postby wcsoldier81 on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:25 am

Roos has a point ... Lakers organization is used to quickly build contenders only through big trades and big FA signing for a while ... you will have to be more patient , value draft picks/develop young assets to success under the new CBA ....

Can the organization adapt ? We're not going back to title contenders levels only by going all out in next summer FA which is very overrated ...

A change of culture is needed and it starts with valuing the draft and the development of our own role players ... that's why we sucked these past couple of years ... we didn't have our Leonard/Klay/ Jimmy Butler type of player on a cheap contract
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Re: End of an Era

Postby Pig Miller on Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:13 am

i don't think mitch needs to go. even though in recent years, he's made the 'home run' moves, he's made some nice smaller deals as well (ariza for instance) and drafted ok, maybe below average but he's gotten us sasha, farmar, turiaf, etc. we obviously haven't done much in the last few years via the draft, but that can be blamed on having no picks.

the days of giving a guy half of your team's cap space is over. there is becoming a smaller middle class in this league, with teams tanking for top and cheaper talent and high end FA talent generally interested in big markets.

we need to find a way to get young talent, that we can get minutes for, get them overvalued and trade them for top tier talent.
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