ESPN best shooting guards

Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby lakersin4 on Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:14 am

Harden will join the ranks of VC, T-Mac, Grant Hill, etc.. All these guys were hyped to be better than Kobe early on, none of them worked as hard as him to stay at the top. If Harden works hard enough to stay elite, good for him, I'll praise him then..
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby LAL4EVA on Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:37 am

As far as I'm concerned, Kobe proved last year that he was the best SG in the league. Until proven otherwise ON THE COURT, that crown is still his. I know Harden had a great year and all, but Kobe was still better. Sure Kobe had a devastating injury that could jeoperdize his career, but give it some time until he returns to see where he's at before crowning someone else. This crap reminds me of the 08 crowning of Lebron as the best player in the league only to eat those words shortly after.
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby therealdeal on Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:42 am

^ Along those lines, I think it's just silly to do this right now. We have no idea how Kobe will look when he comes back. It's too soon to pass the crown until you see EVIDENCE that it needs to be passed. One could certainly expect that, for at least THIS season, Harden should look better... but Kobe loves silencing the crowd.


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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby Scnottaken on Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:04 pm

therealdeal wrote:^ Along those lines, I think it's just silly to do this right now. We have no idea how Kobe will look when he comes back. It's too soon to pass the crown until you see EVIDENCE that it needs to be passed. One could certainly expect that, for at least THIS season, Harden should look better... but Kobe loves silencing the crowd.


We'll see.

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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby Juronimo on Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:38 am

lakersin4 wrote:Harden will join the ranks of VC, T-Mac, Grant Hill, etc.. All these guys were hyped to be better than Kobe early on, none of them worked as hard as him to stay at the top. If Harden works hard enough to stay elite, good for him, I'll praise him then..


Grant Hill came into the NBA a couple of years before Kobe and at his peak he was one of the best in the game until his injury. You can't really include him there. Replace him with Iverson and you have a point.
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby trodgers on Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:32 am

Juronimo wrote:
lakersin4 wrote:Harden will join the ranks of VC, T-Mac, Grant Hill, etc.. All these guys were hyped to be better than Kobe early on, none of them worked as hard as him to stay at the top. If Harden works hard enough to stay elite, good for him, I'll praise him then..


Grant Hill came into the NBA a couple of years before Kobe and at his peak he was one of the best in the game until his injury. You can't really include him there. Replace him with Iverson and you have a point.

Part of the Kobe story has been his ability to avoid injuries and to come back strong from them when they occur. So Hill should be included.
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby Juronimo on Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:22 pm

trodgers wrote:
Juronimo wrote:
lakersin4 wrote:Harden will join the ranks of VC, T-Mac, Grant Hill, etc.. All these guys were hyped to be better than Kobe early on, none of them worked as hard as him to stay at the top. If Harden works hard enough to stay elite, good for him, I'll praise him then..


Grant Hill came into the NBA a couple of years before Kobe and at his peak he was one of the best in the game until his injury. You can't really include him there. Replace him with Iverson and you have a point.

Part of the Kobe story has been his ability to avoid injuries and to come back strong from them when they occur. So Hill should be included.


I disagree. Hill's ankle injury was so severe he ended up enduring multiple surgeries, one of which almost killed him. His work ethic has never been questioned unlike the other people on that list. In fact playing on that bad ankle made it worse.

Hill was just unlucky. The fact that he even was able to play again after all of that was a minor miracle in and of itself. He absolutely should not be mentioned in the same breath as McGrady, Vince etc.
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby charvin on Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:22 pm

Juronimo wrote:
trodgers wrote:
Juronimo wrote:
lakersin4 wrote:Harden will join the ranks of VC, T-Mac, Grant Hill, etc.. All these guys were hyped to be better than Kobe early on, none of them worked as hard as him to stay at the top. If Harden works hard enough to stay elite, good for him, I'll praise him then..


Grant Hill came into the NBA a couple of years before Kobe and at his peak he was one of the best in the game until his injury. You can't really include him there. Replace him with Iverson and you have a point.

Part of the Kobe story has been his ability to avoid injuries and to come back strong from them when they occur. So Hill should be included.


I disagree. Hill's ankle injury was so severe he ended up enduring multiple surgeries, one of which almost killed him. His work ethic has never been questioned unlike the other people on that list. In fact playing on that bad ankle made it worse.

Hill was just unlucky. The fact that he even was able to play again after all of that was a minor miracle in and of itself. He absolutely should not be mentioned in the same breath as McGrady, Vince etc.


I think another factor that led to his compiling injuries were the fault of the doctors/medical staff of the Pistons/Magic. I mean, seriously, the Phoenix Suns have bar none, the best medical staff in the NBA; they were able to help Shaq, Hill, and Nash all maintain or improve their durability.
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby nameant on Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:38 pm

lakersin4 wrote:Harden will join the ranks of VC, T-Mac, Grant Hill, etc.. All these guys were hyped to be better than Kobe early on, none of them worked as hard as him to stay at the top. If Harden works hard enough to stay elite, good for him, I'll praise him then..


Absolutely. The hype is adorable.
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby trodgers on Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:46 pm

I see - if we're just talking about work ethic, then Hill shouldn't be on the list. But Iverson shouldn't be either. In fact, I'm concerned about telling any of those big name players that they didn't really work hard enough.
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby Alcindor on Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:56 pm

Just another example of how any idiot can try to use stats to misguide and deceive the stupid.
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby Cleansed on Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:23 pm

Come on guys...even the fools at Real GM know ESPN is in the entertainment business as opposed to actual sports reporting. Every year (at least for as long as i can remember) it's some shot at Kobe because telling the truth , that he is an all time great, still the best shooting guard in the game, the 2nd best shooting guard ever is old hat after covering him for so many years.

I don't recall the last time i visited the ESPN NBA website. It just flat out isnt a good NBA site for dedicated NBA fans.
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby XXIV on Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:25 am

I wonder if a sports reporting station will ever become big enough to compete with ESPN. Probably not in my lifetime but it would be cool to see. :man10:
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby abeer3 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:46 am

ah yes, the sniveling dweebs like abbott have been licking their chops since kobe's injury. now, they can unleash their full fury without as much fear that kobe will embarrass them (again).

the harden stuff cracks me up. man, is that guy overrated. prime gilbert arenas would pwn that clown.
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:25 am

abeer3 wrote:ah yes, the sniveling dweebs like abbott have been licking their chops since kobe's injury. now, they can unleash their full fury without as much fear that kobe will embarrass them (again).

the harden stuff cracks me up. man, is that guy overrated. prime gilbert arenas would pwn that clown.


Somehow I knew the Harden references in this thread would elicit a response from you...... :man1:

Not that I don't disagree on most levels (he's still pretty young and only started one season) but I was sure that you'd be in before the end of page 2..... :man10:
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby Juronimo on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:55 pm

charvin wrote:
Juronimo wrote:
trodgers wrote:
Juronimo wrote:
lakersin4 wrote:Harden will join the ranks of VC, T-Mac, Grant Hill, etc.. All these guys were hyped to be better than Kobe early on, none of them worked as hard as him to stay at the top. If Harden works hard enough to stay elite, good for him, I'll praise him then..


Grant Hill came into the NBA a couple of years before Kobe and at his peak he was one of the best in the game until his injury. You can't really include him there. Replace him with Iverson and you have a point.

Part of the Kobe story has been his ability to avoid injuries and to come back strong from them when they occur. So Hill should be included.


I disagree. Hill's ankle injury was so severe he ended up enduring multiple surgeries, one of which almost killed him. His work ethic has never been questioned unlike the other people on that list. In fact playing on that bad ankle made it worse.

Hill was just unlucky. The fact that he even was able to play again after all of that was a minor miracle in and of itself. He absolutely should not be mentioned in the same breath as McGrady, Vince etc.


I think another factor that led to his compiling injuries were the fault of the doctors/medical staff of the Pistons/Magic. I mean, seriously, the Phoenix Suns have bar none, the best medical staff in the NBA; they were able to help Shaq, Hill, and Nash all maintain or improve their durability.


From my understanding, the Pistons training staff messed him up pretty good and basically ruined his career. Unfortunate.
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby Ducasse1 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:23 pm

How many rings does this guy need to win before he is not overrated?
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby abeer3 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:27 pm

one more than he currently has will always be the answer.
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby Ducasse1 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:29 pm

3. Who's the most overrated shooting guard in the NBA?

Gordian: Kobe Bryant. Kobe is still a terrific player and may be the second-best shooting guard of all time.


Seems like a contradiction.
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby abeer3 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:31 pm

Rooscooter wrote:Somehow I knew the Harden references in this thread would elicit a response from you...... :man1:

Not that I don't disagree on most levels (he's still pretty young and only started one season) but I was sure that you'd be in before the end of page 2..... :man10:


do you disagree that he's overrated or that gilbert arenas had better seasons (at a similar age) than harden's legendary performance last year? hell, monta's had as good a year at a similar age. I just lol at the slobfest on this guy.
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:59 pm

abeer3 wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:Somehow I knew the Harden references in this thread would elicit a response from you...... :man1:

Not that I don't disagree on most levels (he's still pretty young and only started one season) but I was sure that you'd be in before the end of page 2..... :man10:


do you disagree that he's overrated or that gilbert arenas had better seasons (at a similar age) than harden's legendary performance last year? hell, monta's had as good a year at a similar age. I just lol at the slobfest on this guy.


:man10: :man10: Typing with too many windows open and not keeping track of my "negatives"..... That should have read: Not that I don't agree on most levels

Harden is being promoted as the next great 2 guard. He's made a jump in his career but he's far from a polished player. He is very good in streaks. The "Hibachi Season" was pretty good in a lot of ways but overrating wasn't the main issue with him..... injuries were.

I think Harden isn't finished as a player yet...... overrated? Definitely but may not be in a few years IF he works at it. He has all the tools....
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby abeer3 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:14 pm

I think the fact that he doesn't have an off-hand at 24 is kind of an issue. the likelihood that he develops it is pretty slim, imo. that's a limiting factor. I actually think he's about as polished as he's going to be, and I question his will to greatness.

the two ways that players make big jumps tend to be in adding skills on offense (usually shooting, but in LeBron's case, it was that and a post game) and simply getting stronger. harden's really had both since day one. people make a big deal out of his season last year, but he did as anyone might expect: got less efficient and put up bigger numbers in a bigger role. if he makes another "jump" this year, we can talk about his growth, but I don't expect it. in short, I saw basically no difference in his game last year from the year before, right down to getting marginalized against top notch competition in the playoffs.
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby Rooscooter on Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:59 pm

abeer3 wrote:I think the fact that he doesn't have an off-hand at 24 is kind of an issue. the likelihood that he develops it is pretty slim, imo. that's a limiting factor. I actually think he's about as polished as he's going to be, and I question his will to greatness.

the two ways that players make big jumps tend to be in adding skills on offense (usually shooting, but in LeBron's case, it was that and a post game) and simply getting stronger. harden's really had both since day one. people make a big deal out of his season last year, but he did as anyone might expect: got less efficient and put up bigger numbers in a bigger role. if he makes another "jump" this year, we can talk about his growth, but I don't expect it. in short, I saw basically no difference in his game last year from the year before, right down to getting marginalized against top notch competition in the playoffs.



If getting marginalized in the Playoffs is grounds for being overrated then Chris Paul has 7 seasons as a starter more than Harden at being overrated...... I don't think I need to go into the Howard failures in the playoffs do I?.... :man10: Both of these guys are considered top 5 in a lot of NBA circles..... and by some here.

I tend to agree overall but I'll be on the fence for one more year. I saw some growth from his largely change of pace backup role to starting. The league adjusted to him and now it's his turn to adjust. Great players add something every year.... as you noted.... this will be the year to see if he's got more than we've seen or if he's the new "Hibachi"....
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby trodgers on Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:26 am

Since 1996-97, 48 times players under 25 have averaged 25+. Some of them are amazing stars. Some of them are now regarded as not busts but just good players.

Monta Ellis, Joe Johnson, Danny Granger, Gil Arena, Amare Stoudemire, and Vince Carter surely fit that list. Then there are the others - Iverson, Pierce - who have good bodies of work in their careers but will never be considered all-time greats. I'm betting that Harden is not one of the all-time greats. Will he be more like Pierce or Carter?
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Re: ESPN best shooting guards

Postby wcsoldier81 on Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:07 am

Harden is a great PNR player ... that's about it ... the best Ds will shut him down

Moreover , he is the most " fabricated" star in the league in the way he gets the most phantom calls in the NBA( with KD) and travels like no other too.

He absolutely can't shoot from 3 feet to the 3pt line ... you "withdraw" these 3-4 steps penetrations and these phantoms calls ( at least half of his 2pts baskets and his made FTs) and all you got left is a good 3pt shooter and a good passer off the PNR
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