For those who think Deron Williams is unathletic and fat...

For those who think Deron Williams is unathletic and fat...

Postby unpossibl1 on Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:14 pm

From ESPN Insider:

There are three ways to help your draft stock at the Chicago predraft camp.

First, you can actually play well in the event, like Luther Head and David Lee did, and convince scouts that you're first-round material.

Second, you can stand against a wall, spread your arms out and possibly measure longer/bigger than team originally thought you were. Guys like Chris Paul and Ike Diogu did that this year.

Finally, you can go through the NBA draft combine and prove to scouts that you're quicker, stronger, or can jump higher than your original scouting report.

Insider exclusively obtained a list of the Chicago pre-draft camp combine results on Wednesday. The combine measures four key areas: strength (bench press repetitions of 185 pounds), vertical jump, lane agility (how fast a player moves laterally around the key), and speed (¾-court sprint). Then the league adds those up and gives an athletic ranking to each player in the draft.

The overall winner this year was Oklahoma State's Joey Graham, who blew away the competition. Second was Georgia Tech's Will Bynum. Other top players with good scores included Rashad McCants (3rd overall), Luther Head (6th), David Lee (11th), Marvin Williams (15th), Chris Paul (16th) and Raymond Felton (18th).

There was one major surprise in the top 20 -- Illinois point guard Deron Williams finished 10th, ahead of both Paul and Felton. Part of that had to do with strength; Williams bench pressed 185 pounds 15 times, which is really great for a point guard. However, that wasn't the full story.

There have been major questions about Williams' lateral quickness, but he actually tested quicker than Paul in the lane agility drill and finished .03 seconds behind Paul in the sprint. Williams has lost about 15 pounds and is down to 7½ percent body fat, which obviously has helped his athleticism.

The bottom end of the spectrum included mostly international players and lumbering big men. Georgia Tech center Luke Schensher finished at the bottom of the list (75th). Ersan Ilyasova (74th) and Martynas Andriuskevicius (73rd) also tested poorly.

The shock on the low end was high school star Monta Ellis, who finished 70th. His strength, vertical jump and lateral quickness were all on the low end of the scale. That could be devastating to his draft chances.

Other disappointments included Andrew Bogut (61st), Martell Webster (60th), Rudy Fernandez (57th), Antoine Wright (55th), Jarrett Jack (54th) and Francisco Garcia (51st).

Luther Head ranked as the most athletic point guard in camp. Will Bynum took the award for the 2-guards. Joey Graham won for 3s, David Lee for 4s and Marcin Gortat for centers.

Ellis was the worst ranked guard in camp at either position. Ilyasova finished last among small forwards while Taylor Coppenrath was last for power forwards and Luke Schenscher finished at the bottom of the heap for centers.

On the individual test front, Will Bynum recorded the highest one-step vertical jump at 40½ inches. Gerald Green and Ronnie Price tied for second at 39 inches, followed by Luther Head at 38½. Chris Paul and Hakim Warrick rounded out the top-five, each launching a 38-inch leap.

Luke Schensher recorded the worst vertical jump, at 26½ inches. He was followed by Taylor Coppenrath and Jason Klotz (27 inches) and Martynas Andriuskevicius and Wayne Simien (27½ inches).

Joey Graham won the strength test, bench pressing 185 pounds an impressive 26 times. Ike Diogu finished second with 21 reps, followed by Chuck Hayes with 20. Channing Frye helped himself shed the soft label a bit by hoisting the bar 19 times. Eric Williams, Marcin Gortat and David Simon all finished tied for fifth with 18 reps.

As happens every year, several top players were unable or barely able to do this drill. Monta Ellis, Rudy Fernandez, Martynas Andriuskevicius, Brandon Rush and Daryl Dorsey got a zero for the drill. Luke Schensher and Travis Diener could only lift the bar once.

In the lane agility drill, Michigan State's Alan Anderson recorded the fastest time at 10.32 seconds. Rashad McCants was second at 10.39. John Lucas ranked third, Rudy Fernandez fourth and Raymond Felton fifth.

Jason Klotz, Ellis Myles and Deji Akindele finished at the bottom of the heap. Monta Ellis and Andrew Bogut also recorded terrible times of above 12 seconds.

In the ¾-court sprint, Will Bynum recorded the fastest time at 3 seconds. Joey Graham, Raymond Felton, Rashad McCants and John Lucas were also in the top five. Marvin Williams and Julius Hodge finished in the top 10.

Jason Klotz earns the awarded as the slowest guy in camp with a 3.68 seconds time. Ersan Ilyasova, Andrew Bogut, D'or Fischer and Torin Francis rounded out the five slowest guys in camp.

Here's a look at how 30 of the top draft prospects performed in each event. Note that several top prospects, including Fran Vazquez, Johan Petro, Nate Robinson, Ryan Gomes, Brandon Bass, Matt Walsh and Linas Kleiza, did not participate in the testing.

Chicago Predraft Combine Results
Name Bench press Vertical jump Lane Agility ¾-court sprint Overall rank
Joey Graham 26 36" 10.62 3.05 1
Rashad McCants 15 34½ in 10.39 3.11 3
Luther Head 14 38½" 11.12 3.21 7
Deron Williams 15 35" 10.83 3.25 10
David Lee 14 32½" 10.80 3.19 11
Marvin Williams 12 35" 11.11 3.17 15
Chris Paul 10 38½" 11.09 3.22 16
Raymond Felton 6 33½" 10.50 3.06 18
Ronny Turiaf 15 33" 11.50 3.23 21
Gerald Green 7 39" 11.2 3.21 24
Chris Taft 14 33" 11.26 3.27 25
Julius Hodge 14 29" 10.89 3.18 26
Sean May 12 33" 11.04 3.29 27
Danny Granger 10 34" 10.84 3.34 31
Channing Frye 19 31" 11.60 3.38 33
Dwayne Jones 15 31½" 11.87 3.25 38
Ike Diogu 21 31" 11.94 3.45 39
Charlie Villanueva 11 31" 10.86 3.3 42
Wayne Simien 11 27½" 11.05 3.35 49
Francisco Garcia 5 31½" 10.63 3.33 51
Jarrett Jack 5 28½" 10.87 3.24 54
Antoine Wright 12 29½" 11.45 3.41 55
Rudy Fernandez 0 35½" 10.48 3.33 56
Martell Webster 7 30½" 11.39 3.39 59
Andrew Bogut 13 33½" 12.06 3½1 60
Hakim Warrick 11 38" N/A 3.22 61
Monta Ellis 0 31½" 12.13 3.31 70
Martynas Andriuskevicius 0 27½" 11.94 3.42 73
Ersan Ilyasova 2 30" 11.59 3½6 74

WINNERS

Deron Williams -- Scouts have been questioning his quickness and athleticism all year. Now that he's lost some of that body fat, that no longer seems to be an issue. He's not as fast as Raymond Felton and doesn't jump as high as Chris Paul, but he's clearly in the same league athletically.

Joey Graham -- It doesn't come as a huge surprise that Graham came out on top. If you've seen him play much, you know he's an unbelievable athlete. Still, finishing on top of the heap should guarantee he gets selected in the lottery.

Will Bynum -- He was the last guy invited to Chicago and played extremely well, especially on the defensive end. A few scouts believe he might be a better prospect than Nate Robinson (the guy who tested as the top athlete in Chicago last year). I doubt he gets selected ahead of Nate, but he's definitely in the second-round mix now.

Rashad McCants -- There are still questions about his attitude, but it's rare to find such a great shooter who can also test off the charts athletically (just look at Martell Webster and Antoine Wright). Someone's going to ignore the baggage and take him in the late lottery to mid-first round.

Channing Frye -- He's stronger and more athletic than scouts have given him credit. The 19 reps on the bench press will turn a lot of heads.

David Lee -- Athletically, he tested as the top power forward in the draft. His lane agility scores are what really stand out. Lee has very quick feet, which will really help him defensively in the pros. Combine that with his strong play in Chicago and Lee seems like he's another step closer to securing a spot in the first round.

Marcin Gortat -- He had just a so-so camp, but he tested out as the most athletic center in the draft. He could be off the board in the first 10 picks of the second round if he decides to stay in the draft.

Sean May -- His numbers don't jump out at you, but he showed a better vertical jump and more agility than his main competition: Ike Diogu, Wayne Simien and Chris Taft. Maybe that will balance out the fact that he measured smaller than all of them.

LOSERS

Andrew Bogut -- He's been trying to dispel the "great white stiff" myth for the past few weeks. This doesn't help. While his vertical leap is actually above average for a guy his size, his lateral quickness and sprinting speed were just awful. That will hurt him defensively.

Wayne Simien -- Simien finished well below the other top big men in almost every area. Especially shocking is his lack of explosion jumping off one foot. His one-step vertical was only a half inch more than his standing vertical. That was, by far, the worst in the camp.

Antoine Wright -- Scouts have been warning that Wright looks more athletic than he actually is. At the combine, he was significantly below Francisco Garcia, a guy almost every scout in the league has knocked for his lack of athleticism. Had he not benched an impressive 12 reps, he would have landed close to the bottom. That's going to come back to haunt Wright.

Jarrett Jack -- He has great size and toughness, but athletically, he tested well behind most of the point guards in this draft. With Roko Ukic making a strong push, it could cause him to slip.

The High Schoolers -- Monta Ellis, Martell Webster and Brandon Rush all tested terribly. That's partly because of their age and partly because guys like Ellis and Rush might not have been training for these particular tests the way some players do.

We knew that Webster was just an average athlete but Ellis was a huge shock. For an undersized 2-guard to be successful in the League, he has to be long, quick and explosive. Ellis is none of the above. There's been talk that Minnesota is flirting with taking him at No. 14. It's pretty hard to justify that after seeing these numbers.

The Internationals -- They always struggle every year. With the exception of Gortat, they all were near the bottom of the heap. Most of them have never lifted weights before (which hurts their bench press numbers) and most are bigs lacking any real explosion or quickness.
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Postby BrianCook_The_Laker on Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:24 pm

:jam2: Too funny! Nice Lu and Deron!! :jam2:
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Postby lakerfool on Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:26 pm

Joey Grahm seems to be an ATHLETIC FREAK
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Postby JSM on Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:31 pm

Put Deron in a vs situation and he gets smoked. Why do you think he dropped out of the workout against Felton?

As far as these tests go, they are impressive and all, but really won't change much. 3 lotto picks did poorly in this, guess what...they will still be lotto picks.

GT's Bynum did great, but that doesn't change the fact that he is an extremely late second round pick.
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Postby LAL25 on Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:33 pm

I have to agree, while I was pretty disappointed with Jack's results, I don't think that these combine results really make that huge of a difference. They matter, but they won't determine the lottery.
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Postby NormNix on Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:34 pm

that's actually pretty shocking. wow.

Especially jack and paul.
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Postby NormNix on Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:38 pm

jsm0331 wrote:Put Deron in a vs situation and he gets smoked. Why do you think he dropped out of the workout against Felton?

As far as these tests go, they are impressive and all, but really won't change much. 3 lotto picks did poorly in this, guess what...they will still be lotto picks.

GT's Bynum did great, but that doesn't change the fact that he is an extremely late second round pick.


I don't know man. these workouts mean alot more than you are giving them credit for. It may drop felton though. which is a good thing for us.
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Postby mgods on Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:46 pm

Keep bashing your doughboy all you want but he just tested out as a better athlete than Felton and Paul. He is even quicker laterally than Paul can jump higher than Felton and kills them both in strength. I won't even post your guy Jack's results as they are too embarrassing.

He backs out of 1 on 1's with Felton for the same reason Paul backs out of 1 on 1's with him. Nothing to gain when you are ranked ahead already.

He's ranked so high because NBA evaluators watched him all year and did NOT see all the athletic weaknesses y'all drone on incessantly about. You guys say Garcia and Salim kill him but everyone else sees that they went 4-24 against him. They saw him shut down everyone and call him the draft's top 1 guard defender, you guys say he is a weak defender who is slow. Quicker side to side than Paul, you say no way, results show something different?
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Postby NormNix on Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:48 pm

Taking a second glance, the biggest issue is Jack's vertical. I can deal with his bench press. you can always get strong with a strength and conditioning coach. But his vert is ridiculously low. I think I still got a 28 inch vert. "Still" suggests that I'm not young btw lol.

28 inches is unnacceptable and dare I say hard to believe that's all he's capable of.

But outside of that, his lane agility and speed is fairly comparable to the rest of the guards. But thta vert is just horrendous.

But looking at Green, he's alot stronger than I expected. Especially if you consider how long his arms are. Him being a highschooler, that's impressive. And he's pretty doggone fast.
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Postby NormNix on Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:52 pm

mgods wrote:Keep bashing your doughboy all you want but he just tested out as a better athlete than Felton and Paul. He is even quicker laterally than Paul can jump higher than Felton and kills them both in strength. I won't even post your guy Jack's results as they are too embarrassing.

He backs out of 1 on 1's with Felton for the same reason Paul backs out of 1 on 1's with him. Nothing to gain when you are ranked ahead already.

He's ranked so high because NBA evaluators watched him all year and did NOT see all the athletic weaknesses y'all drone on incessantly about. You guys say Garcia and Salim kill him but everyone else sees that they went 4-24 against him. They saw him shut down everyone and call him the draft's top 1 guard defender, you guys say he is a weak defender who is slow. Quicker side to side than Paul, you say no way, results show something different?


Although I'm not as sold on Deron as I was a month or two ago, it does seem as though losing that weight did wonders for him. I'd like to see what he looks like now.
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Postby Funkee on Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:56 pm

Sky, I'd like to hear your take on this...

Deron isn't the fastest man on the planet but whoever watched him in college knows that Deron has a great footwork.
Remember, he shut Paul down once.

Losing that weight probably helped him as well.
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Postby abeer3 on Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:00 pm

the author sort of alluded to this, but these are drills. people can train specifically for these drills. i'm more comfortable using information sampled from game scenarios over the course of years than times and other measurements taken over the course of an afternoon. there's a lot of room for error in these things (like the lane agility test, in particular).

i think that when the physical measurements are released, that should have an impact. these tests, i wouldn't put much stock in them.
this is the second time i'm hearing that doughboy has 7.5% body fat, which would make that name obsolete.

also, i may end up being wrong, but i also believe in criterion validity (tests need to measure what they're supposed to measure, as compared with an independent standard). this group of tests is supposed to capture total athleticism, but any test that tells me that sean may is more athletic than hakim warrick is a bad test, imo.
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Postby JSM on Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:00 pm

NormNix wrote:
jsm0331 wrote:Put Deron in a vs situation and he gets smoked. Why do you think he dropped out of the workout against Felton?

As far as these tests go, they are impressive and all, but really won't change much. 3 lotto picks did poorly in this, guess what...they will still be lotto picks.

GT's Bynum did great, but that doesn't change the fact that he is an extremely late second round pick.


I don't know man. these workouts mean alot more than you are giving them credit for. It may drop felton though. which is a good thing for us.

I agree with you, workouts do mean a decent bit, but this isn't a workout. It's a series of drills that they had to go through at camp. It won't change anything. Maybe when a team is in the second round and can't decide between two players and one had better combine results than the other, that's about the only time they will matter.
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Postby JSM on Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:04 pm

NormNix wrote:Taking a second glance, the biggest issue is Jack's vertical. I can deal with his bench press. you can always get strong with a strength and conditioning coach. But his vert is ridiculously low. I think I still got a 28 inch vert. "Still" suggests that I'm not young btw lol.

28 inches is unnacceptable and dare I say hard to believe that's all he's capable of.

But outside of that, his lane agility and speed is fairly comparable to the rest of the guards. But thta vert is just horrendous.

Not trying to make an excuse for Jack, but I just can't see that being his max vertical. Maybe he's injured, maybe he has a bum ankle, or something. But I don't recall watching him at GT and thinking...wow...he has an extremely low vertical jump.
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Postby mgods on Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:13 pm

Yep. Bum ankle. That has to be it. Just like his low assist numbers and ungodly turnovers were because his teammates all developed stone hands last summer after their visit to the championship game in 04.

I'm sure he also hand tennis elbow or something because no way "doughboy" lifts 15, Paul 10, Felton 6, and superman Jack only gets 5.
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Postby bigsleepy on Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:26 pm

He wouldn't fall to #10 anyway, so it really doesn't matter.
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Postby trodgers on Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:27 pm

mgods wrote:Yep. Bum ankle. That has to be it. Just like his low assist numbers and ungodly turnovers were because his teammates all developed stone hands last summer after their visit to the championship game in 04.

I'm sure he also hand tennis elbow or something because no way "doughboy" lifts 15, Paul 10, Felton 6, and superman Jack only gets 5.

You probably could lose the attitude. You could have made all the same points in a far more friendly manner. He did say he wasn't trying to make an excuse...though it sounded like one. I'm on your side, just so you know, but you need to ease up a bit.
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Postby NormNix on Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:29 pm

jsm0331 wrote:I agree with you, workouts do mean a decent bit, but this isn't a workout. It's a series of drills that they had to go through at camp. It won't change anything. Maybe when a team is in the second round and can't decide between two players and one had better combine results than the other, that's about the only time they will matter.


good point. But it does show deron did get his "doo doo" together so to speak.
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Postby borri on Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:17 pm

What these drills do, much similar to the NFL drills, is show RAW ability as in strength, agility, quickness and jumping ability. The question remains, do the results from these tests and drills transfer over to REAL game scenarios? Yes and no. Just look at some of the workouts freaks in the NFL not doing squat in the league.

What it can decipher i think is how an athlete can move and leap. I think what we can take from these numbers is that Deron is fast enough to cover and defend faster guards in the league. That he can jump and is strong enough to rebound consistently at PG position, that he is agile enough to cover space when defending and creating shots for himself.

However, what it DOESN'T measure are the intangibles, brains, court IQ, heart....which more often than not make an NBA player good. This i think can only be measure watching game situations.
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Postby Laker brain on Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:33 pm

borri wrote:
However, what it DOESN'T measure are the intangibles, brains, court IQ, heart....which more often than not make an NBA player good. This i think can only be measure watching game situations.


Deron has great IQ, I liked this cat, and i like how he is trying to prove the doubters wrong. Motivation can sometimes be a breakthrough.
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Postby mojoballer on Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:13 pm

borri wrote:What these drills do, much similar to the NFL drills, is show RAW ability as in strength, agility, quickness and jumping ability. The question remains, do the results from these tests and drills transfer over to REAL game scenarios? Yes and no. Just look at some of the workouts freaks in the NFL not doing squat in the league.

What it can decipher i think is how an athlete can move and leap. I think what we can take from these numbers is that Deron is fast enough to cover and defend faster guards in the league. That he can jump and is strong enough to rebound consistently at PG position, that he is agile enough to cover space when defending and creating shots for himself.

However, what it DOESN'T measure are the intangibles, brains, court IQ, heart....which more often than not make an NBA player good. This i think can only be measure watching game situations.


Man, Deron might end up being the consensus #3 pick ahead of Paul.

No questions his intangibles - he showed them all during his college days and showcased them during the last NCAA tourney.

The big question on him was his weight and perceived lack of footspeed/agility to defend NBA PG's.

His performance on these drills is impressive (and I have to admit, rather suprising).
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Postby NormNix on Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:19 pm

mojoballer wrote:
borri wrote:What these drills do, much similar to the NFL drills, is show RAW ability as in strength, agility, quickness and jumping ability. The question remains, do the results from these tests and drills transfer over to REAL game scenarios? Yes and no. Just look at some of the workouts freaks in the NFL not doing squat in the league.

What it can decipher i think is how an athlete can move and leap. I think what we can take from these numbers is that Deron is fast enough to cover and defend faster guards in the league. That he can jump and is strong enough to rebound consistently at PG position, that he is agile enough to cover space when defending and creating shots for himself.

However, what it DOESN'T measure are the intangibles, brains, court IQ, heart....which more often than not make an NBA player good. This i think can only be measure watching game situations.


Man, Deron might end up being the consensus #3 pick ahead of Paul.

No questions his intangibles - he showed them all during his college days and showcased them during the last NCAA tourney.

The big question on him was his weight and perceived lack of footspeed/agility to defend NBA PG's.

His performance on these drills is impressive (and I have to admit, rather suprising).


exactly. I'm very surprised.
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Postby kobesthegreatest8 on Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:39 pm

That gramm dude looks nasty...He is a sf..but he is nasty I heard also I think deron would be the best fit for us...hes tall can shoot the 3..and is an awesome passer.
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Postby alberto on Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:46 pm

In-game athleticism is much more important. These drills don't mean a thing if it doesn't transfer to your game. Watching Felton, Williams, and Paul in games is what counts.
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Postby kobesthegreatest8 on Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:50 pm

How do these tests mean nothing?? They wouldnt use them if they meant nothing!! :bang:
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