How Jim Buss Lost Howard And Destroyed The Lakers-12 Steps

Re: How Jim Buss Lost Howard And Destroyed The Lakers-12 Steps

Postby 008 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:46 pm

Yes, Jimmy is a clown, but one of the worst thing that happened to Lakers recently is getting Sterned and not able to get CP3...

If the CP3 transaction went thru, I'll bet Lakers would have had another ring or at least played at the final last year.
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Re: How Jim Buss Lost Howard And Destroyed The Lakers-12 Steps

Postby Rooscooter on Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:58 pm

lakerfan2 wrote:Well to any extent, being a successfully consistent team over the past decade or so hasn't netted us a lottery pick player. The one we did get, was Bynum. As much as JB wanted to draft him, a lot of credit should go to the scout that JB ultimately fired.


:man3: .... the scout presented his opinion and Phil and Mitch STILL wanted May. Who fired him is not relevant whatsoever here IMO. Phil and Mitch were looking for a Brian Cook 2.0 IMO and we got a 17 year old that ended up netting us Howard. The fantasy scenario where Howard and CP3 lead us to a championship or 5 starts and ends when Bynum was drafted..... which was not the way the Coach and GM wanted it at the time.

lakerfan2 wrote:You have to remember, we also drafted Marc Gasol, by in which, we netted Pau Gasol and then 2 championships. We were making the right moves.
Marc Gasol was not drafted to trade.... and he wasn't traded because Mitch saw value. He was "tossed in" that trade. Memphis knew of the value because of Pau.... if anything we were not aware of his value while another team was. It wasn't our focus to develop players at that time..... that is one of the focuses of my overall point. Even if we had known what Marc Gasol was we still would have shipped him off for an old 2 guard to run the Triangle. It's those decisions years ago that have contributed to where we are..... not just Dwight getting his panties in a bundle and Stern nixing the CP3 deal.

lakerfan2 wrote:Then complacency set in with players, internal matters such as Phil learning about his Prostate Cancer diagnosis, kind of slowly fell apart in the 2011 season.
We see it differently here as well. Trading pick after pick, signing only certain players while other nice pieces went elsewhere was the main issue... not Phil's cancer. Again, it netted us two rings but this is the hangover from 5 years ago.... not an Acute Jimmy Buss event.

lakerfan2 wrote:This is all the while, Lakers were trying to make moves to fit a new system with Phil gone. CP3 and Howard don't seem like fits because they haven't played with another superstar before. Kobe, Dwight and CP3 would've attracted more capable players like the Shane Battiers to come at a cut to compete.
No offense but did I miss where Battier or any other person was on the record to come here if we had this team? This is the mindset of a Fantasy team builder IMO. Even during our "run" we didn't have people coming here after Shaq left.... just didn't happen other than Artest and that was at the expense of youth in Ariza.

lakerfan2 wrote:We see it now with Houston and the Clippers, AK took a cut to play in Brooklyn.
Kaman and Young just took significant cuts to join the Lakers..... AFTER Howard left. Cause and effect not connecting here IMO.

lakerfan2 wrote:A lot did take place during that veto. Lakers didn't get their star. Their current players, feelings were hurt, especially coming off having such great chemistry. Then a few years of downtime and now the fans want to blame JB?
Coming off great chemistry? You do remember how the previous year ended right? Bynum chucking a guy into the 3rd row and basically everyone but Kobe, Artest and Bynum looking like they couldn't care less in Dallas.... Phil thought so much of that "chemistry" that he didn't even entertain coming back.

I know I'm in the minority but I think not getting CP3 was a good thing.... he is not made for post season success.... Pop and Phil game planned him right out of a few series over the years and his has little value when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. He's had very good team in the regular season only to be a huge disappointment in the post season. Ball dominant, small guard don't lead teams to finals.... Prime to Prime Nash was better than CP3 and never got that close to a finals.

I was in the minority on Howard as well....
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Re: How Jim Buss Lost Howard And Destroyed The Lakers-12 Steps

Postby Mr_Hollywood_Line on Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:37 pm

The article is spot-on in reference to Baseball Cap Boy's lack of qualifications for the job and the despicable way he tossed Shaw, Odom, and Jackson under the bus. Hope TWC, et al, can apply enough pressure to force him to step down.
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Re: How Jim Buss Lost Howard And Destroyed The Lakers-12 Steps

Postby Phil XI on Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:51 pm

Rooscooter wrote:
lakerfan2 wrote:You have to remember, we also drafted Marc Gasol, by in which, we netted Pau Gasol and then 2 championships. We were making the right moves.
Marc Gasol was not drafted to trade.... and he wasn't traded because Mitch saw value. He was "tossed in" that trade. Memphis knew of the value because of Pau.... if anything we were not aware of his value while another team was. It wasn't our focus to develop players at that time

This is not accurate Roo. In Sept 2008, before Marc had played one game in the NBA, Mitch was interviewed about Yue and Gasol, saying Gasol "was going to be good player and play in this league for years to come". He said they "had" to include Marc in the trade to Memphis, in fact they asked for both Gasol and Yue, but LA said no so Grizz took Marc (they too knew what they were getting as Wallace went on the air the next day spouting about best big in Europe and getting 'essentially like another 1st rounder' in Marc).
Mitch also said they intentionally drafted both foreigners because they had no roster flexibility in 07-08 and wanted players who could play overseas for a year. It wasn't about development it was about a full roster. Mitch said Marc (taking Kwame's spot basically) would have been on the 08-09 team had he not been traded.
The inclusion on Marc was no accident no 'tossing in'. And Pau would wouldn't necessarily have been a Laker if they didn't have that chip to add to the pot.
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Re: How JB Lost Dwight Howard And Destroyed The Lakers-12 Steps

Postby Plot on Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:55 pm

unpossibl1 wrote:
lakerfan2 wrote:Meh...he's made some bad decisions, but what ultimately destroyed the plans was the veto.


I agree...the CP3 trade would have essentially been a cure-all, both financially and on the basketball court. We would likely be building around CP3/Kobe/Dwight right now.

Yep. The initial trade was amazing because it provided a star PG in his prime, saved money, created an even bigger TPE than the Lamar post-veto trade, and no picks from the Lakers were given. I strongly believe the Lakers after the CP3 trade would have tried to go after free agent David West to fill the PF hole in a sign-and-trade for picks in the same way we acquired Nash. I remember some people thought the Lakers were trying to just save money in this CP3 trade under the guise of acquiring a star player. Since we now know about Jerry Buss' condition in hindsight, that's doubtful.

Mitch was uncharacteristically throwing stuff in his office after that veto. He knew what the Lakers lost that day.
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Re: How Jim Buss Lost Howard And Destroyed The Lakers-12 Steps

Postby live and die in LA on Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:00 pm

Not saying Jim is all that great, but isn't it funny how Mitch gets credit for all of the good personnel decisions while Jim gets the bad rap for the ones that don't work out? I've said it before and I'll say it again, people are going a little overboard when it comes to Jim Buss.
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Re: How Jim Buss Lost Howard And Destroyed The Lakers-12 Steps

Postby Rooscooter on Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:06 pm

Phil XI wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:
lakerfan2 wrote:You have to remember, we also drafted Marc Gasol, by in which, we netted Pau Gasol and then 2 championships. We were making the right moves.
Marc Gasol was not drafted to trade.... and he wasn't traded because Mitch saw value. He was "tossed in" that trade. Memphis knew of the value because of Pau.... if anything we were not aware of his value while another team was. It wasn't our focus to develop players at that time

This is not accurate Roo. In Sept 2008, before Marc had played one game in the NBA, Mitch was interviewed about Yue and Gasol, saying Gasol "was going to be good player and play in this league for years to come". He said they "had" to include Marc in the trade to Memphis, in fact they asked for both Gasol and Yue, but LA said no so Grizz took Marc (they too knew what they were getting as Wallace went on the air the next day spouting about best big in Europe and getting 'essentially like another 1st rounder' in Marc).
Mitch also said they intentionally drafted both foreigners because they had no roster flexibility in 07-08 and wanted players who could play overseas for a year. It wasn't about development it was about a full roster. Mitch said Marc (taking Kwame's spot basically) would have been on the 08-09 team had he not been traded.
The inclusion on Marc was no accident no 'tossing in'. And Pau would wouldn't necessarily have been a Laker if they didn't have that chip to add to the pot.


I'll dig up the article..... my recollection is that the Memphis GM had seen Marc Play with Pau and knew what he could become. Mitch played the typical trade game but I don't think anyone associated with the Lakers had the same information Memphis did on him. Mitch's comments were in the face of the media backlash framework of us ripping off Memphis and trying to pump up Marc's value to make it seem like we gave up a promising prospect rather than just getting Pau for Kwame and some junk. I see it as another great acquisition of a top tier player while not wanting to develop a young player which was the mold of that era.

What are you basing your comment on about no Marc no Trade? I've never read anything like that that I can remember..... but then again I don't remember everything I've read either..... :man10:
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Re: How Jim Buss Lost Howard And Destroyed The Lakers-12 Steps

Postby Phil XI on Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:45 pm

Where did I say no Marc no Trade? I said not 'necessarily', and of course Memp's biggest concern was money (dumping of Pau's 60m). I meant had Mitch said yes Yue but no Marc, Memphis may have balked, giving Chicago the in. I'm sure the league had an inkling after Spain won the 06 world championship when Lebron and co got bounced in the semi's and Spain won the euro chip in 07, both squads had young Marc - and don't forget LA already had a teenage C in Bynum so they weren't sweating it.
The article iirc corectly is about Yue but Mitch talks about Marc for a bunch of it.

Edit - I've been fighting the disinformation about the Pau trade since it happened and got me kicked off a site or two.
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Re: How Jim Buss Lost Howard And Destroyed The Lakers-12 Steps

Postby Doc Brown on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:04 pm

Waiting for people to blame Jim for the Wesley Johnson signing.....

And the Young....

And the Kaman....

And the Farmar.....
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Re: How Jim Buss Lost Howard And Destroyed The Lakers-12 Steps

Postby Exonyte on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:22 pm

yeah a little too much hate towards jim buss
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Re: How Jim Buss Lost Howard And Destroyed The Lakers-12 Steps

Postby Chillbongo on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:32 pm

The Lakers are not destroyed and Howard is not worthy of donning the Laker threads. The CP3 trade screwed us, but by no means excuses Jim for a host of piss poor decisions. Had the trade gone through there is no guarantee we would be immune from his poor choices, nor that've would have kept Paul or Howard after the 2013 season.

Coaching decisions aside, his approval of trading multiple draft picks was ridiculous. His belief that star names and coaches can magically mold on the court with no semblance to chemistry or X's and O's is child like and void of basketball acumen.

His stubborn nature and desire to separate from the rich network of Laker alumni is almost blasphemous. While he has some qualities of an owner we want to see, the rest of the package does not excuse him. He would be fine if he did not micro manage this franchise, but until he is willing to learn from those who have done it before, I'm worried for us.

That being said, the moves this summer have been great -- to whomevers credit.
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Re: How Jim Buss Lost Howard And Destroyed The Lakers-12 Steps

Postby kakafung on Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:06 am

revgen wrote:Jim Buss isn't the worst owner ever. He's not a cheapskate who won't spend money.

I just wish he'd let Mitch figure out how to spend it.

But He's a cheapskate who won't hire his sister's husband .
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Re: How Jim Buss Lost Howard And Destroyed The Lakers-12 Steps

Postby kakafung on Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:20 am

008 wrote:Yes, Jimmy is a clown, but one of the worst thing that happened to Lakers recently is getting Sterned and not able to get CP3...

If the CP3 transaction went thru, I'll bet Lakers would have had another ring or at least played at the final last year.

other than this two years ,it's fundamental of our future if the deal made.
trading bynum for howard whether or not last year ,it really doesn't matter when you put up the roster with cp3 .
we still waiting at next summer to see what we can get and wasting a year for Mike to run the team.
it's definitely depressed when looking back in 2011 summer .
Just a step we can be really different right now
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Re: How Jim Buss Lost Howard And Destroyed The Lakers-12 Steps

Postby Phil XI on Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:37 am

Right. Bynum was expiring this year as well. Basically, the Howard/Bynum swap saved LA from the risk of overspending 100 mil on Bynum. This got me thinking...
What if LA had just dealt with Philly and done a Bynum/Iggy swap cutting out Orl/Den.
Would they have resigned Iggy? For the same 48m deal he got from GW (with the extra year LA couldve offer)?
Would LA even do that with the '14 plan (have Iggy's 12m on the books as opposed to the 21 they'd have with DH?
Where would Dwight have gone last summer? Or would ORL have just kept him?
Nevermind, I don't like thinking.
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Re: How Jim Buss Lost Howard And Destroyed The Lakers-12 Steps

Postby Rooscooter on Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:02 am

kakafung wrote:
revgen wrote:Jim Buss isn't the worst owner ever. He's not a cheapskate who won't spend money.

I just wish he'd let Mitch figure out how to spend it.

But He's a cheapskate who won't hire his sister's husband .


.....and still pay MDA for a couple years while Paying Phil 10M+ for what..... a year of home game coaching?

Bringing Phil back then means the entire team's construction changes yet again back into a Triangle team.... Phil coaches 1, maybe 2 years and then it changes again back into a typical NBA team because only one coach has ever had success with that offense.

Phil's part of the past..... just let it go.
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