How would you get this team back on track?

khmrP · by **khmrP** on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:57 am

JGC wrote:So another question is, do we even WANT this team to get back on track?

Would it be better for us to fall completely flat on our face, or, would it be better to slip in to the playoffs and get booted in the first round?

With the former, you may see drastic changes. With the latter, you might see an FO that says, ok, let's build on this next year and do nothing, or very little.

IMO I think they would still make alot of changes with a 1st rd boot....after all we have ALOT of expiring contracts after this season.

Lets Go Lakers · by **Lets Go Lakers** on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:08 pm

JGC wrote:So another question is, do we even WANT this team to get back on track?

Would it be better for us to fall completely flat on our face, or, would it be better to slip in to the playoffs and get booted in the first round?

With the former, you may see drastic changes. With the latter, you might see an FO that says, ok, let's build on this next year and do nothing, or very little.

I think objectively going into next season, no matter what happens this year, priority one should be to lock up Dwight. He is a superstar talent and superstar talent is truly a diamond in the rough. We might have to go through more growing pains with Kobe ball hogging for one more year but after that, we can concentrate on improving the team and start accumulating some young talent.

borri · by **borri** on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:10 pm

There isn't a realistic fix. Just BLOW IT UP.

Lets Go Lakers · by **Lets Go Lakers** on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:19 pm

History has shown that a team made up of a bunch of good players usually don't win rings. You need a couple of superstars in most cases. Only one star in extreme cases. We have one superstar already. As i said in a previous thread i made about Kobe or Dwight, it's a no brainer. You go with Dwight. He can be one of the superatar that we can build around. The other would be a great pg. Then if we acquire those two, we can just scout for the right talent to compliment our two stars. I can't believe how so many Laker fans take Dwight for granted. He is a special talent. You do whatever u can to lock him up and make him happy.

jjin28 · by **jjin28** on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:26 pm

The only only chance to get to the playoffs is to have mike d take a temporary leave of absence and go back to the winningest lakers coach ever in bernie. Let him coach again for the next 10 games n if he takes the lakers to at least a 7-3 record, then u swallow the pill n fire mike.

In all seriousness, bernie just let his stars play with no system. He let the players do their thing and went 4-1 with even that one loss being competitive

JGC · by **JGC** on Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:52 pm

khmrP wrote:
JGC wrote:So another question is, do we even WANT this team to get back on track?

Would it be better for us to fall completely flat on our face, or, would it be better to slip in to the playoffs and get booted in the first round?

With the former, you may see drastic changes. With the latter, you might see an FO that says, ok, let's build on this next year and do nothing, or very little.

IMO I think they would still make alot of changes with a 1st rd boot....after all we have ALOT of expiring contracts after this season.

Yes but what do you want them to do with those expiring contracts? Blow the 2014 plan? We have almost no one on the books for 2014. We've already blown our draft picks.

Would it be worth dumping the 2014 plan by trying to acquire the pieces necessary to get this team back on track? I just feel like maybe we need to start fresh.

MC · by MC on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:55 am

Easy........

Fire MDA..... Bernie take over and go back to running the Princeton .... an offense designed to work off of off ball screens and use our size to actually wear teams down with it......... force those small teams to work around double screens set by our bigs.....wear down the legs of those running teams while getting player movement involved, not just ball movement which MDA seems to complain about...... hard to have great ball movement with no player movement or penetration genius!........ that is just how moronic MDA actually is.

Go back to a system that has been introduced at some level, one that is responsible within it's own framework when floor balance is concerned and one that controls the tempo and doesn't completely rely on perimeter shooting......... They need to reduce both the TOs and transition looks based on irresponsible offensive play.............. yes they were turning over the ball early in the year but the Princeton was always going to take some time to learn............. when people that have no clue about the philosophy of basketball decide to make panic moves the 2013 Lakers than become the result.

My solution there is no Jimmy taken it up the a>> from Jackson while still running a more RESPONSIBLE offense relative to what the roster suggests............. simple if we can just keep the shoot from the hip TOOLS away from basketball decision making.

but that is too boring to the Buss family so lets continue the train wreck dreaming about running a system (Showtime) that they clearly have no clue how it worked in the first place......... Showtime was transition ball but if it was not there it went to inside out basketball threw the Cap..... you know? the style of ball your hand picked coach says is inefficient Buss lol .......not freak'n hard to figure out unless you have Buss as a last name apparently.

revgen · by **revgen** on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:03 am

I think people tend to forget that we were turning the ball over constantly when we were running the Princeton. And that was despite a full training camp and preseason.

Also, we weren't running Princeton under Bernie. Bernie just let the guys freelance.

MC · by MC on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:07 am

revgen wrote:I think people tend to forget that we were turning the ball over constantly when we were running the Princeton. And that was despite a full training camp and preseason.

Also, we weren't running Princeton under Bernie. Bernie just let the guys freelance.

Sure it was but the pace was right........ I actually already acknowledged and responded to this point within my post anyway.

you didn't honestly think that there wasn't going to be a huge learning curve did you? people are just not very knowledgeable if they didn't expect some major bumps early. ....

by now though..... if they would have stayed the course...... they would have something to hang their hat on while controlling the pace of the game...........

It's all about philosophy of play relative to what you have..............

staying with the Princeton would have made more sense than scrapping not only the coach but the system you started to implement in the first place. There was no need for it.... this has everything to do with the bi-polar like decision making of pinky and the brain.

themasterphil · by **themasterphil** on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:14 am

No fix, its over!....tome to make some moves

frankrj · by **frankrj** on Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:46 am

For this team to do well, they need to do what they do best is make it a half court game because:
1.) they are old
2.) they have 3 great post players
3.) they have bad transition defense.

Hubie Brown said it best today.

It cannot be blamed on 1 person or player. They are just older and slower in transition defense.
I think they should trade D. Howard, Artest and Gasol for younger athletic players. Howard will have chronic back problems (and shoulder problems that's new to me), Gasol has tendinitis and is slower (after all these playoff runs). Artest is older too. These big guys aren't getting younger. When bigs get hurt periodically, it becomes a distraction and team problem (Bynum).
So, now trading those 1st rd draft picks for Howard are becoming more of a problem due to impatience. I said it when it happened. Maybe they can get something back from their mistake and look forward to next season with new younger legs in the draft. As of now, I feel Howard is Dallas or Brooklyn bound unless traded.

D.B. Cooper · by **D.B. Cooper** on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:05 am

Lets Go Lakers wrote:History has shown that a team made up of a bunch of good players usually don't win rings. You need a couple of superstars in most cases. Only one star in extreme cases. We have one superstar already. As i said in a previous thread i made about Kobe or Dwight, it's a no brainer. You go with Dwight. He can be one of the superatar that we can build around. The other would be a great pg. Then if we acquire those two, we can just scout for the right talent to compliment our two stars. I can't believe how so many Laker fans take Dwight for granted. He is a special talent. You do whatever u can to lock him up and make him happy.

Our only super star is Kobe this year, not sure what games you're watching?

karacha · by **karacha** on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:11 am

The problem with trading Dwight is this: he might be recovering/hurt now, but we'll still need a big man for the future. And when it comes to centers, Dwight is quite healthy compared to most of them. Other teams are always struggling with this too. Even when hurt and recovering from back injury, Dwight is still quicker then most of them. Sad, but true.

khmrP · by **khmrP** on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:32 am

JGC wrote:
khmrP wrote:
JGC wrote:So another question is, do we even WANT this team to get back on track?

Would it be better for us to fall completely flat on our face, or, would it be better to slip in to the playoffs and get booted in the first round?

With the former, you may see drastic changes. With the latter, you might see an FO that says, ok, let's build on this next year and do nothing, or very little.

IMO I think they would still make alot of changes with a 1st rd boot....after all we have ALOT of expiring contracts after this season.

Yes but what do you want them to do with those expiring contracts? Blow the 2014 plan? We have almost no one on the books for 2014. We've already blown our draft picks.

Would it be worth dumping the 2014 plan by trying to acquire the pieces necessary to get this team back on track? I just feel like maybe we need to start fresh.

and do you really want to waste another year of Kobes career? I'm not saying trade just to trade, if the right players are available you make the move, dont just hold onto the 2014 plan at all cost, just like Cuban and his ultimate plan of teamming up Dwill/Howard in Dall, in fact he adjusted his plan and still has cap flexibility for this upcoming off-season.

frankrj · by **frankrj** on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:36 am

karacha wrote:The problem with trading Dwight is this: he might be recovering/hurt now, but we'll still need a big man for the future.

No! the game has changed. The Lakers management think they need a big man or center to win.
recent champs - Heat (no center), Mavs (no center), Lakers (KB & Gasol, power forward), Celtics (no dominant center), Spurs (Duncan and friends), Heat, (D-wade), Pistons (team dee), Lakers (KB & Shaq - OK), Spurs (D & friends). If Laker mgmt wants showtime, then a center is not in their future. Versatile wing players and good defenders are.

khmrP · by **khmrP** on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:52 am

frankrj wrote:
karacha wrote:The problem with trading Dwight is this: he might be recovering/hurt now, but we'll still need a big man for the future.
No! the game has changed. The Lakers management think they need a big man or center to win.
recent champs - Heat (no center), Mavs (no center), Lakers (KB & Gasol, power forward), Celtics (no dominant center), Spurs (Duncan and friends), Heat, (D-wade), Pistons (team dee), Lakers (KB & Shaq - OK), Spurs (D & friends). If Laker mgmt wants showtime, then a center is not in their future. Versatile wing players and good defenders are.

Tyson Chanlder is a C and was one of the most integral part of Dall success. The heat won w/o a C because they forced OKC to match up against them with their speed and OKC C sucked and wasn't enough of post pressence to deter Mia from playing small ball. Porkins as celtic was dominant defensive pressence, not in the sense that he blocked everything in sight but he prevented other post presence from being effective. Howard if recovered can still fit in the mold of a showtime C, I wasn't around in the 80s for showtime but from the looks of Kareem, he looked pretty old and was still an integral part of those run/gun teams.

432J · by **432J** on Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:58 am

as much as I would love to see bernie coaching the team again over dan tony, let's not forget he's made it clear that he does not want to be head coach and that is not what he came to LA for

just imagine his standpoint. the guy came to LA as an assistant, probably as his last hurrah as an NBA coach to a stacked team everyone was picking to win the finals only to have the season turn into an all out disaster and all of a sudden be thrust into the interim HC role with everyone wanting him to take over permanently
:man10:

karacha · by **karacha** on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:18 am

You always need a center. Maybe not a high-scoring, back to the basket, polished center - but you still need someone to play the 5. Dwight is an awesome defender; he's very mobile even after surgery, and has more of a muscular PF body and height. Every team in the league could use a player like that. Young, explosive, can score under the basket, can block shots and intimidate penetrating guards. What else do you need from a modern 5?

karacha · by **karacha** on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:25 am

khmrP wrote:Tyson Chanlder is a C and was one of the most integral part of Dall success. The heat won w/o a C because they forced OKC to match up against them with their speed and OKC C sucked and wasn't enough of post pressence to deter Mia from playing small ball. Porkins as celtic was dominant defensive pressence, not in the sense that he blocked everything in sight but he prevented other post presence from being effective. Howard if recovered can still fit in the mold of a showtime C, I wasn't around in the 80s for showtime but from the looks of Kareem, he looked pretty old and was still an integral part of those run/gun teams.

Correct. Look at the big guys that had success with their teams recently. Chandler -- a tall, defensive-minded center. Pau -- officially a 4, but played 5 most of the time. Typical Euro center with a polished, versatile game. Duncan - really a center. Very polished, has mid-range shot, defends and rebounds. Next, Miami used Bosh as their primary "big". 6-11, slim and fairly mobile, amazing mid range shot, plays like an Euro center. Celtics: used KG as a featured big man. 7 feet tall, long arms, awesome defender, mobile. Perkins is not the tallest center, but he is wide and strong and played excellent positional defense.

All of these teams used their big men to either shoot and use their smooth Euro-centric game, or play great D and block shots. Dwight does not have a smooth jumper, but he does fill the defensive role better then most. And, on top of that, he still can give you more on the offensive end then most defensive centers.

MC · by MC on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:28 am

frankrj wrote:
karacha wrote:The problem with trading Dwight is this: he might be recovering/hurt now, but we'll still need a big man for the future.
No! the game has changed. The Lakers management think they need a big man or center to win.
recent champs - Heat (no center), Mavs (no center), Lakers (KB & Gasol, power forward), Celtics (no dominant center), Spurs (Duncan and friends), Heat, (D-wade), Pistons (team dee), Lakers (KB & Shaq - OK), Spurs (D & friends). If Laker mgmt wants showtime, then a center is not in their future. Versatile wing players and good defenders are.

If Lakers want showtime you first have to understand how showtime ran........... Showtime was still inside out basketball if the transition score was not there...the ball ran thru Cap. That's how Showtime worked, it wasn't this gimmick ball people mistake for showtime like.

you need a center...period..... if you don't have a center THAN you play gimmick ball....

Only 1 title has been won playing gimmick ball and now it's the future? please.

phoenixrisingla · by **phoenixrisingla** on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:35 am

MC wrote:
frankrj wrote:
karacha wrote:The problem with trading Dwight is this: he might be recovering/hurt now, but we'll still need a big man for the future.
No! the game has changed. The Lakers management think they need a big man or center to win.
recent champs - Heat (no center), Mavs (no center), Lakers (KB & Gasol, power forward), Celtics (no dominant center), Spurs (Duncan and friends), Heat, (D-wade), Pistons (team dee), Lakers (KB & Shaq - OK), Spurs (D & friends). If Laker mgmt wants showtime, then a center is not in their future. Versatile wing players and good defenders are.

If Lakers want showtime you first have to understand how showtime ran........... Showtime was still inside out basketball if the transition score was not there...the ball ran thru Cap. That's how Showtime worked, it wasn't this gimmick ball people mistake for showtime like.

you need a center...period..... if you don't have a center THAN you play gimmick ball....

Only 1 title has been won playing gimmick ball and now it's the future? please.

Thank you! I'm getting sooooo tired of this "The game has changed" talk. :jam2:

scissors · by **scissors** on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:40 am

phoenixrisingla wrote:
MC wrote:
frankrj wrote:
karacha wrote:The problem with trading Dwight is this: he might be recovering/hurt now, but we'll still need a big man for the future.
No! the game has changed. The Lakers management think they need a big man or center to win.
recent champs - Heat (no center), Mavs (no center), Lakers (KB & Gasol, power forward), Celtics (no dominant center), Spurs (Duncan and friends), Heat, (D-wade), Pistons (team dee), Lakers (KB & Shaq - OK), Spurs (D & friends). If Laker mgmt wants showtime, then a center is not in their future. Versatile wing players and good defenders are.

If Lakers want showtime you first have to understand how showtime ran........... Showtime was still inside out basketball if the transition score was not there...the ball ran thru Cap. That's how Showtime worked, it wasn't this gimmick ball people mistake for showtime like.

you need a center...period..... if you don't have a center THAN you play gimmick ball....

Only 1 title has been won playing gimmick ball and now it's the future? please.

Thank you! I'm getting sooooo tired of this "The game has changed" talk.

JGC · by **JGC** on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:49 am

khmrP wrote:
JGC wrote:
khmrP wrote:
JGC wrote:So another question is, do we even WANT this team to get back on track?

Would it be better for us to fall completely flat on our face, or, would it be better to slip in to the playoffs and get booted in the first round?

With the former, you may see drastic changes. With the latter, you might see an FO that says, ok, let's build on this next year and do nothing, or very little.

IMO I think they would still make alot of changes with a 1st rd boot....after all we have ALOT of expiring contracts after this season.

Yes but what do you want them to do with those expiring contracts? Blow the 2014 plan? We have almost no one on the books for 2014. We've already blown our draft picks.

Would it be worth dumping the 2014 plan by trying to acquire the pieces necessary to get this team back on track? I just feel like maybe we need to start fresh.

and do you really want to waste another year of Kobes career? I'm not saying trade just to trade, if the right players are available you make the move, dont just hold onto the 2014 plan at all cost, just like Cuban and his ultimate plan of teamming up Dwill/Howard in Dall, in fact he adjusted his plan and still has cap flexibility for this upcoming off-season.

No, but I would rather waste another year of Kobe's career, if it means we can start getting back to being competitive in 2014.

In other words, we've already mortgaged our future by trading away all of our draft picks for the next few years.

You could waste the next decade for this franchise, trying to get 1 ring in Kobe's final year. Doesn't seem worth it to me.

Do you want to waste the next decade for this franchise?

therealdeal · by **therealdeal** on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:50 am

scissors wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:
MC wrote:
frankrj wrote:
karacha wrote:The problem with trading Dwight is this: he might be recovering/hurt now, but we'll still need a big man for the future.
No! the game has changed. The Lakers management think they need a big man or center to win.
recent champs - Heat (no center), Mavs (no center), Lakers (KB & Gasol, power forward), Celtics (no dominant center), Spurs (Duncan and friends), Heat, (D-wade), Pistons (team dee), Lakers (KB & Shaq - OK), Spurs (D & friends). If Laker mgmt wants showtime, then a center is not in their future. Versatile wing players and good defenders are.

If Lakers want showtime you first have to understand how showtime ran........... Showtime was still inside out basketball if the transition score was not there...the ball ran thru Cap. That's how Showtime worked, it wasn't this gimmick ball people mistake for showtime like.

you need a center...period..... if you don't have a center THAN you play gimmick ball....

Only 1 title has been won playing gimmick ball and now it's the future? please.

Thank you! I'm getting sooooo tired of this "The game has changed" talk.

Seriously thank God for you guys right now :man10:

The Lakers know the recipe for success: get the best big man in the game first and then get the other guys. That doesn't mean the other guys aren't important, it means there's a small amount of big men and there's a million guards. Go get the best of the bigs, then get one of the best of the perimeter players.

Kobe/Shaq, Magic/Kareem, West/Chamberlain (even though West came first, this was the pioneer group).

Just because Small Ball is more popular now, doesn't mean you get away from the ONE thing that has proven to have success over the years.

phoenixrisingla · by **phoenixrisingla** on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:04 am

Lets look at what some other teams did to get back on track and see if we can imitate that.

The Knicks had a nice turnaround last year, can anyone remember what they did to make it happen? :man1:

How would you get this team back on track?

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