Jeremy Lin Discussion

Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby nluna75 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:03 am

trodgers wrote:I spent the morning crunching some numbers.

Among 45 players who started as many games as Lin at PG last year, Lin was tied for 16th in FG%, 25th in 3pt%, and 17th in FT%. He was overall the 19th best shooter.

Among the same players Lin was 31st in assist rate, 13th in turnover rate, and 22nd in ast/to ratio. He was overall 22nd in passing measures.

Among the same players, his ORtg was 20th, his DRtg was 23th, and his differential was 24th. In terms of offensive/defensive measures, he was 24th overall.

3-4 teams where he would/should start seems low. Seems more like about 9. This puts Lin in the third tier among PGs, but he's high in that tier.

So he's not just a body and money. He's not just a better PG than (any) Fisher, Smush, Atkins, Marshall, and broken Nash. He's a legitimate NBA starter at PG.


So he not terrible? He's actually pretty good, even starter material. Nooooo he sucks, i hate him, he makes too much money, we were lowballed. I want Isiah Thomas. He's our savior! He will play his way into the Hall of Fame next year. Stupid Mitch!!! Fire Buss!!!! I want Phil and Pat back!!!! They failed in getting Melo, everyone hates Kobe and the Lakers. Force Retire Kobe and move the team to Seattle. We're out of here.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby therealdeal on Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:07 am

It's already been shown he's a better defender than he's given credit for. I think the right word would be above average. It's impossible to shut down PGs on the perimeter, but he does about as good a job as possible.

He's a good shooter, a good scorer, a pretty good passer... I don't understand why there's much hate.

As for the "why" we picked him- it's already been proven that Mitch has wanted him for a long time. He was probably willing to take less because he could finally get to him. The fact that he's going to bring in a ton of money is a plus obviously and HAD to come into consideration, but so what? It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive from the fact that he's a good PG and the Lakers needed one.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby khmrP on Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:09 am

therealdeal wrote:It's already been shown he's a better defender than he's given credit for. I think the right word would be above average. It's impossible to shut down PGs on the perimeter, but he does about as good a job as possible.

He's a good shooter, a good scorer, a pretty good passer... I don't understand why there's much hate.

As for the "why" we picked him- it's already been proven that Mitch has wanted him for a long time. He was probably willing to take less because he could finally get to him. The fact that he's going to bring in a ton of money is a plus obviously and HAD to come into consideration, but so what? It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive from the fact that he's a good PG and the Lakers needed one.


Mitch had 2 chances before this to get him even cheaper, after Lin draft and after he got waived by Hou...I recall alot of poster hoping Mitch would've picked him up after Hou waived him and it was long time too before NY picked him up.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby therealdeal on Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:13 am

khmrP wrote:
therealdeal wrote:It's already been shown he's a better defender than he's given credit for. I think the right word would be above average. It's impossible to shut down PGs on the perimeter, but he does about as good a job as possible.

He's a good shooter, a good scorer, a pretty good passer... I don't understand why there's much hate.

As for the "why" we picked him- it's already been proven that Mitch has wanted him for a long time. He was probably willing to take less because he could finally get to him. The fact that he's going to bring in a ton of money is a plus obviously and HAD to come into consideration, but so what? It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive from the fact that he's a good PG and the Lakers needed one.


Mitch had 2 chances before this to get him even cheaper, after Lin draft and after he got waived by Hou...I recall alot of poster hoping Mitch would've picked him up after Hou waived him and it was long time too before NY picked him up.

Go read his takes on it. He said he tried and it didn't work out. Not to mention we were pretty good at the time so the need wasn't as great as it is now. And when we wanted him then he hadn't proven he was worth the money.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby khmrP on Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:22 am

therealdeal wrote:
khmrP wrote:
therealdeal wrote:It's already been shown he's a better defender than he's given credit for. I think the right word would be above average. It's impossible to shut down PGs on the perimeter, but he does about as good a job as possible.

He's a good shooter, a good scorer, a pretty good passer... I don't understand why there's much hate.

As for the "why" we picked him- it's already been proven that Mitch has wanted him for a long time. He was probably willing to take less because he could finally get to him. The fact that he's going to bring in a ton of money is a plus obviously and HAD to come into consideration, but so what? It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive from the fact that he's a good PG and the Lakers needed one.


Mitch had 2 chances before this to get him even cheaper, after Lin draft and after he got waived by Hou...I recall alot of poster hoping Mitch would've picked him up after Hou waived him and it was long time too before NY picked him up.

Go read his takes on it. He said he tried and it didn't work out. Not to mention we were pretty good at the time so the need wasn't as great as it is now. And when we wanted him then he hadn't proven he was worth the money.


it said Hou picked him off waivers due to records after the GS 1st year but what about when Hou also waived him and he ended up in NY....didn't we have a chance then too? and from what I recall it took a while before he ended up with NY as well.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby therealdeal on Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:40 am

Honestly I couldn't tell you, but I remember hearing the Lakers were after this kid when he went undrafted. I know we were after him at least one of the times he was waived. The second time he was waived, we might not have had available space for him.

Either way, the point stands: we have wanted this kid for a long time now. We were probably willing to take a bit less than Philadelphia because we actually have been after him for a while.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby NomisR on Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:45 am

LakerJack wrote:Right now Lin is the worst starting pg in the NBA.


No, you forgot Patrick Beverly that got Lin's job last year. He was the Derek Fisher of Houston. Instead, he's known for Defense instead of "Clutch" but neither of which is actually true for either of them. Lin knows how Jordan Farmar felt when he left Los Angeles because an inferior player was starting over him.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby NomisR on Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:05 am

therealdeal wrote:Honestly I couldn't tell you, but I remember hearing the Lakers were after this kid when he went undrafted. I know we were after him at least one of the times he was waived. The second time he was waived, we might not have had available space for him.

Either way, the point stands: we have wanted this kid for a long time now. We were probably willing to take a bit less than Philadelphia because we actually have been after him for a while.


Lakers offered Lin an unguaranteed contract so he opted to go to GSW where he got a guaranteed contract. After being waived, we were going to pick him up but we had a better record than HOU so they got him, and when he was waived by HOU, NYK had a worse record than we did so they got first dibs.

So we didn't get him not for the lack of interest or trying, but simply because we were too good at the time. Remember the year before Linsanity, we made it to the 2nd round while Houston didn't make the playoffs and the Knicks had a 42-40 season while we were the #2 seed in the west.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby LTLakerFan on Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:14 am

khmrP wrote:
therealdeal wrote:It's already been shown he's a better defender than he's given credit for. I think the right word would be above average. It's impossible to shut down PGs on the perimeter, but he does about as good a job as possible.

He's a good shooter, a good scorer, a pretty good passer... I don't understand why there's much hate.

As for the "why" we picked him- it's already been proven that Mitch has wanted him for a long time. He was probably willing to take less because he could finally get to him. The fact that he's going to bring in a ton of money is a plus obviously and HAD to come into consideration, but so what? It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive from the fact that he's a good PG and the Lakers needed one.


Mitch had 2 chances before this to get him even cheaper, after Lin draft and after he got waived by Hou...I recall alot of poster hoping Mitch would've picked him up after Hou waived him and it was long time too before NY picked him up.


Wasn't that during the period where we couldn't "bid" on those guys unless everyone else passed because we were over the cap?
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby therealdeal on Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:25 am

NomisR wrote:
therealdeal wrote:Honestly I couldn't tell you, but I remember hearing the Lakers were after this kid when he went undrafted. I know we were after him at least one of the times he was waived. The second time he was waived, we might not have had available space for him.

Either way, the point stands: we have wanted this kid for a long time now. We were probably willing to take a bit less than Philadelphia because we actually have been after him for a while.


Lakers offered Lin an unguaranteed contract so he opted to go to GSW where he got a guaranteed contract. After being waived, we were going to pick him up but we had a better record than HOU so they got him, and when he was waived by HOU, NYK had a worse record than we did so they got first dibs.

So we didn't get him not for the lack of interest or trying, but simply because we were too good at the time. Remember the year before Linsanity, we made it to the 2nd round while Houston didn't make the playoffs and the Knicks had a 42-40 season while we were the #2 seed in the west.

Right. Thanks for the recap, I had forgotten the details.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby lakerfan2 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:14 am

abeer3 wrote:
lakerfan2 wrote:1. We didn't want to commit to big lengthy contracts like the one Isiah got ($32M/4years). Especially for an undersized scoring guard? No thanks.


lin's a scoring guard who can't defend his position...like Thomas...except not as good at scoring. as for the years--I don't care. we saw what cap space can net you this year: MOAR CAP SPACE NEXT YEAR! I'd rather try to build a team than keep waiting for superman.

not to mention that all the furor about unmovable contracts has been vastly overblown. supposedly, jose calderon was unmovable after signing a similar deal to Thomas's last year...teams willing to operate over the cap to win have clowned some of the cap space hoarders in recent years, imo. gs almost snagging Dwight out of nowhere should have been the sign everyone needed: you don't have to hoard cap space when some hopeful bottom feeder will do it for you. those guys will rent their space to you for useless things like late first rounders...oh wait...those guys are now the lakers. dammit.

2. Why does the Lin move have to be about money and not his game? Sure he has a bigger fanbase than the norm, but he's more than capable than the everyday guard. Why does he have to get discounted? Because Dwight and Harden put the blame in his hands? Because McHale didn't know how to properly use a point guard? Everything about Jeremy Lins career has always been like this. It's disgusting. Oh, we just signed him for money or for ratings, all because he has a bigger fanbase. BS, outside of Fisher being a perfect triangle guard, Lin is probably the best PG skillwise we've had in awhile, unless you can prove me otherwise.


because his game isn't that strong? imo, he's really a backup pg. you can only name a handful of teams in the league (3 or 4 maybe) that would start lin over their current pg. and being the best pg the lakers have had is a dubious distinction--he's better than old fisher, chucky atkins, tierre brown, smush parker, Jordan farmar, darius morris, and the like? hooray?

but again, my issue with the lin trade was the lakers being the team willing to take the lowball asset in tow. I said before the trade ever happened: the team that won Jeremy lin really lost, because they folded before the other interested parties. that was the lakers this time.


This notion that Lin is a bad defender is blown way out of proportion. It was shown entry of times that Lin is actually a decent defender, when Harden and Beverly struggled with Lillard in the Portland series.

Offensive, Lin is more than just a "scoring" guard. He has a much higher bball iq than Thomas. Lin works well in The pick and roll and is a lot more unselfish than Isiah. The reason we currently value cap space so much is because we don't have any assets yet, so our asset is money. Is that hard to understand? How else do you expect to obtain players without any assets because the ones you had got vetoed and turned into nothing after.

He's a back up in YOUR opinion. Except, he earned his starting position in NY and his first year in Houston and is expected to be ours. You can downplay his game all you want, like everyone else has, a lot of it was because he hasn't followed up with Linsanity. So what? He's still a gamer who wants to play, unlike some guys are just looking to get paid.

Honestly, getting the picks were a bonus. Mitch wanted Lin for a long time, and to get picks along with it, conditional or not, we got them and they're assets now to use in the future.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby Savory Griddles on Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:31 pm

LTLakerFan wrote:
TIME wrote:
LakerJack wrote:Right now Lin is the worst starting pg in the NBA.


I missed you. :wave:


No kidding. Bomb Thrower is back.


I honestly thought he got banned or something. I guess we get to have more kernels of wisdom now. :man11:
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby Savory Griddles on Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:34 pm

lakerfan2 wrote:
abeer3 wrote:
lakerfan2 wrote:1. We didn't want to commit to big lengthy contracts like the one Isiah got ($32M/4years). Especially for an undersized scoring guard? No thanks.


lin's a scoring guard who can't defend his position...like Thomas...except not as good at scoring. as for the years--I don't care. we saw what cap space can net you this year: MOAR CAP SPACE NEXT YEAR! I'd rather try to build a team than keep waiting for superman.

not to mention that all the furor about unmovable contracts has been vastly overblown. supposedly, jose calderon was unmovable after signing a similar deal to Thomas's last year...teams willing to operate over the cap to win have clowned some of the cap space hoarders in recent years, imo. gs almost snagging Dwight out of nowhere should have been the sign everyone needed: you don't have to hoard cap space when some hopeful bottom feeder will do it for you. those guys will rent their space to you for useless things like late first rounders...oh wait...those guys are now the lakers. dammit.

2. Why does the Lin move have to be about money and not his game? Sure he has a bigger fanbase than the norm, but he's more than capable than the everyday guard. Why does he have to get discounted? Because Dwight and Harden put the blame in his hands? Because McHale didn't know how to properly use a point guard? Everything about Jeremy Lins career has always been like this. It's disgusting. Oh, we just signed him for money or for ratings, all because he has a bigger fanbase. BS, outside of Fisher being a perfect triangle guard, Lin is probably the best PG skillwise we've had in awhile, unless you can prove me otherwise.


because his game isn't that strong? imo, he's really a backup pg. you can only name a handful of teams in the league (3 or 4 maybe) that would start lin over their current pg. and being the best pg the lakers have had is a dubious distinction--he's better than old fisher, chucky atkins, tierre brown, smush parker, Jordan farmar, darius morris, and the like? hooray?

but again, my issue with the lin trade was the lakers being the team willing to take the lowball asset in tow. I said before the trade ever happened: the team that won Jeremy lin really lost, because they folded before the other interested parties. that was the lakers this time.


This notion that Lin is a bad defender is blown way out of proportion. It was shown entry of times that Lin is actually a decent defender, when Harden and Beverly struggled with Lillard in the Portland series.

Offensive, Lin is more than just a "scoring" guard. He has a much higher bball iq than Thomas. Lin works well in The pick and roll and is a lot more unselfish than Isiah. The reason we currently value cap space so much is because we don't have any assets yet, so our asset is money. Is that hard to understand? How else do you expect to obtain players without any assets because the ones you had got vetoed and turned into nothing after.

He's a back up in YOUR opinion. Except, he earned his starting position in NY and his first year in Houston and is expected to be ours. You can downplay his game all you want, like everyone else has, a lot of it was because he hasn't followed up with Linsanity. So what? He's still a gamer who wants to play, unlike some guys are just looking to get paid.

Honestly, getting the picks were a bonus. Mitch wanted Lin for a long time, and to get picks along with it, conditional or not, we got them and they're assets now to use in the future.


And honestly, the way he was treated in Houston by Hardward was abysmal. I'm not expecting him to become a top 10 pg or anything. But with our history, a top 20 pg would be better than anything we've had for 15 years, and I fully expect him to be a top 20 pg next season.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby lakerfan2 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:02 pm

Exactly. He actually had a really good first season after Linsanity and then he got injured. Introduce Howard and Harden and then basically forced Lin out of the starting lineup because they couldn't adjust.

No one is expecting Lin to be a star, keep his expectations low. But don't be surprised when he plays at a level you didnt expect.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby dj vitus on Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:24 pm

Yeah, I think Lin might surprise. He's definitely a very capable scorer. Maybe not the best passer or outside shooter in the world. But with the ease of getting to the rim these days in the NBA, we could use a guy who is very adept at it and could definitely take advantage.

Maybe I have high expectations, but I wouldn't be surprised if he scored 15-18 points per game next season.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby NomisR on Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:46 pm

dj vitus wrote:Yeah, I think Lin might surprise. He's definitely a very capable scorer. Maybe not the best passer or outside shooter in the world. But with the ease of getting to the rim these days in the NBA, we could use a guy who is very adept at it and could definitely take advantage.

Maybe I have high expectations, but I wouldn't be surprised if he scored 15-18 points per game next season.


Well, based on his starting numbers, he was doing 14 pts, 4.2 assists per game, playing 31 mpg as a starter, and that's playing off position under McHale, so yeah, i'm using this as a baseline expectation for him.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby Toklat on Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:25 am

Lin is a skilled player with a high basketball IQ and a desire to be a winner and good teammate. He has the tools to do what Byron asks of him. How can he not be successful with this team? The Lakers scored again with this deal. The exact type of player Byron wants.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby manning on Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:59 am

Just want to share.
Can't wait for the new season! :man11:
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby trodgers on Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:48 am

Great video. I'm so pumped to see Lin on this team.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby abeer3 on Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:11 am

lakerfan2 wrote:The reason we currently value cap space so much is because we don't have any assets yet, so our asset is money. Is that hard to understand?


the rest of what you said I basically just disagree with, and there's not any good way to solve it, but this nugget...yeah, I think I do understand. the dry powder theory has worked for exactly one team: the Miami heat. everyone else is continually left holding the bag in FA year after year, then claiming that NEXT year, they'll really strike it rich. it's a terrible team-building strategy. if you want to say that nobody was good enough to warrant commitment, ok, but don't parade that around as a plan. it's not a plan. it's a wish.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby Rooscooter on Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:26 am

abeer3 wrote:
lakerfan2 wrote:The reason we currently value cap space so much is because we don't have any assets yet, so our asset is money. Is that hard to understand?


the rest of what you said I basically just disagree with, and there's not any good way to solve it, but this nugget...yeah, I think I do understand. the dry powder theory has worked for exactly one team: the Miami heat. everyone else is continually left holding the bag in FA year after year, then claiming that NEXT year, they'll really strike it rich. it's a terrible team-building strategy. if you want to say that nobody was good enough to warrant commitment, ok, but don't parade that around as a plan. it's not a plan. it's a wish.


+1

There is no plan other than to secure the next marketable star.... then they will figure out a way to fill in the holes. We have a few assets now but I'd venture a guess that if we get a chance at a veteran star we'd trade them all in a heartbeat.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby LTLakerFan on Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:46 am

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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby LTLakerFan on Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:57 am

manning wrote:Just want to share.
Can't wait for the new season! :man11:



Great video that shows how hard this kid plays and the effort expended diving on floor, etc.

But WHOA!! Lookee here for the few "Lin-sucks-on-defense-that's-why-Beverly-got-the-starts" HONKS here on CL:

Stats at the end of the video typed out for you because I am a "giver" :man1:

D Ratg
Lin 109
Beverly 108

Def ON
Lin 1.05
Bevery 1.05

Def RAPM (what is this ??)
Lin .07
Beverly 1.08

Opponent PPP
Lin .86 (148th) 2pt 36.8 3pt 34.8
Beverly .88 (190th) 2pt 40.7 3pt 41.7

Opponent FG% at Rim players over 25mpg
Lin 47.7% (28th)
Beverly 52.2% (68th)

Opponent Pts Per Game @48min
Lin 13.3 FG 44.1% *** these averages for PPG allowed @48mpg seem low for both?
Beverly 14.3 FG 48%

OP Mid Range
Lin 15-19' 37.5 20-24' 34.7 25-29' 32.5
Beverly 15-19' 55 20-24' 41.7 25-29' 39.4
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby Roscoe on Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:44 am

JLin played extremely well before some injuries slowed him down last year. In November he was putting up 16+ a game while figuring out his role with the Rockets. He went from starter to scoring guard off the bench and was killing. I expect him to average 16-18 a game with 6-7 assists. Him being a clear cut starter will do wonders for his confidence.
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Re: Jeremy Lin Discussion

Postby thkthebest on Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:56 pm

LTLakerFan wrote:Def RAPM (what is this ??)
Lin .07
Beverly 1.08

RAPM is my favorite stat, but it's not perfect. Anyway, you have your basic PM (aka plus minus aka +/-), which is pretty self-explanatory. It just tracks a team's net score when a player is on the floor.

Then, you have APM, which stands for Adjusted Plus Minus. It takes into consideration both your teammates and opponents to give a better understanding of a player's impact on the floor.

Then you have RAPM, which stands for Regularized Adjusted Plus Minus. It uses a method called "ridge regression" to essentially give our more accurate "APM" data. Think of this like a better APM. Lol.
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