Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Lakerman JSJ on Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:28 pm

khmrP wrote:
Lakerman JSJ wrote:It's convenient revisionist history to put every bad move on Jim's shoulders and every great move on Mitch's. Better to think of them as one voice in our front office.


and you and the likes who are not off of Jim wagon are giving him full credit for the bynum, howard, and cp3 scenario but are telling the rest of us he shouldn't be blamed. I can't argue any further with Antoni hiring, but Brown hiring is pretty evident, I mean if you were in a 3 way equal partner and was in the process of hiring someone, are you gona take your partners word for it even though you WEREN'T there for the interview yourself? From all indication, Brown got offered the job on the stop right after the interview.


Where exactly did I give ANYONE full credit alone for any move? Pretty sure I've been 100% consistent in saying that any move (good or bad) should be viewed as a group decision by the combination of Mitch & Jim (as well as Dr. Buss until his passing).

The only exception made is when we hear multiple confirmed reports from reliable sources saying otherwise (a la Jim championing the "Draft Bynum" cause). It wasn't long ago that most everyone around here was bashing their heads against the wall because they believed Jim would never trade "his project Bynum" for Dwight Howard. When he did, there was quite a bit of euphoria here around 11 months ago. Injuries derailed what was thought to be a championship-contending season. Hard to blame Jim (or Mitch or anyone else) for bad luck there.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:50 pm

Lakerman JSJ wrote:
khmrP wrote:
Lakerman JSJ wrote:It's convenient revisionist history to put every bad move on Jim's shoulders and every great move on Mitch's. Better to think of them as one voice in our front office.


and you and the likes who are not off of Jim wagon are giving him full credit for the bynum, howard, and cp3 scenario but are telling the rest of us he shouldn't be blamed. I can't argue any further with Antoni hiring, but Brown hiring is pretty evident, I mean if you were in a 3 way equal partner and was in the process of hiring someone, are you gona take your partners word for it even though you WEREN'T there for the interview yourself? From all indication, Brown got offered the job on the stop right after the interview.


Where exactly did I give ANYONE full credit alone for any move? Pretty sure I've been 100% consistent in saying that any move (good or bad) should be viewed as a group decision by the combination of Mitch & Jim (as well as Dr. Buss until his passing).

The only exception made is when we hear multiple confirmed reports from reliable sources saying otherwise (a la Jim championing the "Draft Bynum" cause). It wasn't long ago that most everyone around here was bashing their heads against the wall because they believed Jim would never trade "his project Bynum" for Dwight Howard. When he did, there was quite a bit of euphoria here around 11 months ago. Injuries derailed what was thought to be a championship-contending season. Hard to blame Jim (or Mitch or anyone else) for bad luck there.

This.

No one is allowing anyone off the hook, it's just disingenuous to continue ragging on one person for all of this. This has been a collective failure and yet Jim is the only one getting consistently smashed.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby khmrP on Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:52 pm

therealdeal wrote:
Lakerman JSJ wrote:
khmrP wrote:
Lakerman JSJ wrote:It's convenient revisionist history to put every bad move on Jim's shoulders and every great move on Mitch's. Better to think of them as one voice in our front office.


and you and the likes who are not off of Jim wagon are giving him full credit for the bynum, howard, and cp3 scenario but are telling the rest of us he shouldn't be blamed. I can't argue any further with Antoni hiring, but Brown hiring is pretty evident, I mean if you were in a 3 way equal partner and was in the process of hiring someone, are you gona take your partners word for it even though you WEREN'T there for the interview yourself? From all indication, Brown got offered the job on the stop right after the interview.


Where exactly did I give ANYONE full credit alone for any move? Pretty sure I've been 100% consistent in saying that any move (good or bad) should be viewed as a group decision by the combination of Mitch & Jim (as well as Dr. Buss until his passing).

The only exception made is when we hear multiple confirmed reports from reliable sources saying otherwise (a la Jim championing the "Draft Bynum" cause). It wasn't long ago that most everyone around here was bashing their heads against the wall because they believed Jim would never trade "his project Bynum" for Dwight Howard. When he did, there was quite a bit of euphoria here around 11 months ago. Injuries derailed what was thought to be a championship-contending season. Hard to blame Jim (or Mitch or anyone else) for bad luck there.

This.

No one is allowing anyone off the hook, it's just disingenuous to continue ragging on one person for all of this. This has been a collective failure and yet Jim is the only one getting consistently smashed.


He's the owner/president, he has the final say, anyone saying Mitch has equal input is lying to themselves.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Lakerman JSJ on Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:52 pm

therealdeal wrote:No one is allowing anyone off the hook, it's just disingenuous to continue ragging on one person for all of this. This has been a collective failure and yet Jim is the only one getting consistently smashed.


Also, we won back-to-back championships 3 years ago under Jim & Mitch's watch. Only a few teams in history have ever done that! We're not exactly "long-suffering" around here.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:54 pm

khmrP wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
Lakerman JSJ wrote:
khmrP wrote:
Lakerman JSJ wrote:It's convenient revisionist history to put every bad move on Jim's shoulders and every great move on Mitch's. Better to think of them as one voice in our front office.


and you and the likes who are not off of Jim wagon are giving him full credit for the bynum, howard, and cp3 scenario but are telling the rest of us he shouldn't be blamed. I can't argue any further with Antoni hiring, but Brown hiring is pretty evident, I mean if you were in a 3 way equal partner and was in the process of hiring someone, are you gona take your partners word for it even though you WEREN'T there for the interview yourself? From all indication, Brown got offered the job on the stop right after the interview.


Where exactly did I give ANYONE full credit alone for any move? Pretty sure I've been 100% consistent in saying that any move (good or bad) should be viewed as a group decision by the combination of Mitch & Jim (as well as Dr. Buss until his passing).

The only exception made is when we hear multiple confirmed reports from reliable sources saying otherwise (a la Jim championing the "Draft Bynum" cause). It wasn't long ago that most everyone around here was bashing their heads against the wall because they believed Jim would never trade "his project Bynum" for Dwight Howard. When he did, there was quite a bit of euphoria here around 11 months ago. Injuries derailed what was thought to be a championship-contending season. Hard to blame Jim (or Mitch or anyone else) for bad luck there.

This.

No one is allowing anyone off the hook, it's just disingenuous to continue ragging on one person for all of this. This has been a collective failure and yet Jim is the only one getting consistently smashed.


He's the owner/president, he has the final say, anyone saying Mitch has equal input is lying to themselves.

He has the final say NOW. He didn't when his father was alive which was to start this season. Which was during literally ALL of the problems that you've posed. Brown, D'Antoni... Guess what? Dr. Buss had finally say then.

What has Jim done since he's had FINAL SAY? Let a heartless loser like Howard walk. Good move by President Buss. :jam2:

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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby khmrP on Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:56 pm

Dr. Buss swallowed his pride and hired a Coach that got him a 3peat to get a B2B championship....if you guys buy his rationale for hiring Antoni, great for you. To me its a cover up for his buffon of a son who has consistently made mistakes with his coaching hiring(Rudy, and the 2 Mikes). I dont care that Howard left, I do however care he left $30mill on the table, goes to show how much he disliked this organization and how it things have changed.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:00 pm

Lakerman JSJ wrote:Laker fans seem to always need a scapegoat. Not long ago, it was Mitch. He's now passed the "crown" to Jim. I wonder who'll be next...

THANK YOU :bow:
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Lakerman JSJ on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:03 pm

khmrP wrote:I dont care that Howard left, I do however care he left $30mill on the table, goes to show how much he disliked this organization and how it things have changed.


Yeah, when a perennial champion like Dwight Howard walks away from your organization, it's time to start looking in the mirror... :scurred:
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:04 pm

khmrP wrote:Dr. Buss swallowed his pride and hired a Coach that got him a 3peat to get a B2B championship....if you guys buy his rationale for hiring Antoni, great for you. To me its a cover up for his buffon of a son who has consistently made mistakes with his coaching hiring(Rudy, and the 2 Mikes). I dont care that Howard left, I do however care he left $30mill on the table, goes to show how much he disliked this organization and how it things have changed.

Again, you're letting your opinion cloud the facts. The facts are all there in multiple sources. Dr. Buss made that decision. It's there. You saw the evidence. You're distorting the evidence to fit your rationale instead of adjusting your opinion to fit the evidence.

Dwight leaving was a function of so many things. To try to say it was because of Jim by itself is just ridiculous. Not only did the Lakers not believe in Howard as their future, but they weren't willing to capitulate to his demands because of it. They didn't fire D'Antoni for Howard and for THAT I suppose Jim could be "blamed". But I'd give him credit. Now we don't have to watch 5 years of asinine whining, childish demands, and pouting on the court.

Good job Jim Buss.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby OX1947 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:10 pm

Howard never wanted to be here. This was way before Jim Buss polluted him, as many of you say. That is a fact. It's just unfortunate we all had to wait a year to have it confirmed 100%.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby khmrP on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:14 pm

therealdeal wrote:
khmrP wrote:Dr. Buss swallowed his pride and hired a Coach that got him a 3peat to get a B2B championship....if you guys buy his rationale for hiring Antoni, great for you. To me its a cover up for his buffon of a son who has consistently made mistakes with his coaching hiring(Rudy, and the 2 Mikes). I dont care that Howard left, I do however care he left $30mill on the table, goes to show how much he disliked this organization and how it things have changed.

Again, you're letting your opinion cloud the facts. The facts are all there in multiple sources. Dr. Buss made that decision. It's there. You saw the evidence. You're distorting the evidence to fit your rationale instead of adjusting your opinion to fit the evidence.

Dwight leaving was a function of so many things. To try to say it was because of Jim by itself is just ridiculous. Not only did the Lakers not believe in Howard as their future, but they weren't willing to capitulate to his demands because of it. They didn't fire D'Antoni for Howard and for THAT I suppose Jim could be "blamed". But I'd give him credit. Now we don't have to watch 5 years of asinine whining, childish demands, and pouting on the court.

Good job Jim Buss.


Mike Brown hiring is evident enough for me of Jim powers, there's nothing you can argue on that one.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:16 pm

I'm not going to argue in circles with you, I already addressed that. It's further up the page. If you want to continue the argument, go up there and quote my response to that.

The fact that you have to continue to dig to find reasons to hate on Jim Buss should show you that you're just that... hating. He's made his share of mistakes, but he's not infallible. And neither is Mitch and neither was Dr. Buss.

The blame this guy gets for everything is just flat out ridiculous.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Lakerman JSJ on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:17 pm

therealdeal wrote:The blame this guy gets for everything is just flat out ridiculous.


Or another word: Unfounded
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby khmrP on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:19 pm

Lakerman JSJ wrote:
therealdeal wrote:The blame this guy gets for everything is just flat out ridiculous.


Or another word: Unfounded


show me a story that says Mike Brown wasn't hired on the spot with Jim being the only one there at the interview and I'll rest my case.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby puffyusaf#2 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:20 pm

Lakerman JSJ wrote:
therealdeal wrote:The blame this guy gets for everything is just flat out ridiculous.


Or another word: Unfounded


and: Over the top
For what it's worth, the Lakers also clinched the Pacific Division, an achievement Bryant dismissed by saying "We don't hang divisions." No, only the big NBA championship banners are considered wall-worthy for the Lakers.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby TIME on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:27 pm

There are three strong posters defending Jim Buss on this last page and making some valid points. But, no matter how ridiculous, unfounded and over the top this might be I'm still convinced he is a Grade A Knucklehead.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby khmrP on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:29 pm

TIME wrote:There are three strong posters defending Jim Buss on this last page and making some valid points. But, no matter how ridiculous, unfounded and over the top this might be I'm still convinced he is a Grade A Knucklehead.


there, everybody has their own views, I have mine until he proves me wrong with his coaching hiring I'll go with the Grade A knucklehead myself.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:30 pm

TIME wrote:There are three strong posters defending Jim Buss on this last page and making some valid points. But, no matter how ridiculous, unfounded and over the top this might be I'm still convinced he is a Grade A Knucklehead.

It's entirely possible. But he has yet to prove that to me irrevocably.

He's made his mistakes, but he's also been responsible (or partly responsible) for some great Laker moves. Coaching moves? He hasn't had a hand in any great ones, but his father had that problem too from time to time. Roster moves? He's made some great ones. He deserves a lot of credit in that regard.

I think our only point is that the jury still is out. There's still not enough clear evidence one way or the other.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby TalkieWalkie on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:31 pm

I started this thread a year and-a-half ago... At the time, the signs that prompted my thoughts were:

1. Cutting salary in front office: good ownership empowers people to be successful and share ownership of an organization. Jim was eliminating these people and empowering himself to micromanage and hiring non-Basketball people into critical positions for talent evaluation. He even fired trainers.

2. Removing all remnants of Phil Jackson's staff including natural head-coaching prospect Bryan Shaw and Rambis. This was not a basketball move and not a winning move. The move smells of alterior motives I.e. fragile ego.

3. Hiring Mike Brown... The DVD guy. I give Jim credit for having the guts firing him after a poor start..

4. Panic selling Lamar (which was somewhat redeemed)....

Now we can add: ...hiring of Mike D'antoni, regardless of weather or not it was dr. Buss decision , was dumb. I personally think Jim is hiding behind his father's "decision" when all along he was responsible for the decision. His goal was to pick anyone but Phil...

Losing Dwight. It might have been for the better, but it just speaks volumes how this franchise has changed
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby TIME on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:45 pm

therealdeal wrote:
He's made his mistakes, but he's also been responsible (or partly responsible) for some great Laker moves. Coaching moves? He hasn't had a hand in any great ones, but his father had that problem too from time to time. Roster moves? He's made some great ones. He deserves a lot of credit in that regard.



This to me is a solid point putting things in perspective. With all of Jerry Buss' amazing decisions over the course of his career as owner he made more bad decisions on coaches than good ones. Jerry Buss hired among others: Dunleavy, Randy Pfund, Rambis, Magic, Del Harris, Rudy T, Mike Brown, D'Antoni. He made two great coaching decisions with Phil and Riles (and Riles was not his first choice, West was until West suddenly deferred).

I do think Jim might be one great coaching hire away from breaking through as an owner. He seems to be better with his player moves than he is with his coaching decisions so far.

The bigger issue for me is that he is a self professed stat geek and by all accounts has next to zero people skills which is the critical thing for an owner. He is missing the thing that made his Dad so great.
Vitti uttered three words that surely applies to how Bryant made two free throws on one leg, walked off the court on his own and processed his rehabilitation plan amid the pain, frustration and tears.

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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby therealdeal on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:50 pm

TIME wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
He's made his mistakes, but he's also been responsible (or partly responsible) for some great Laker moves. Coaching moves? He hasn't had a hand in any great ones, but his father had that problem too from time to time. Roster moves? He's made some great ones. He deserves a lot of credit in that regard.



This to me is a solid point putting things in perspective. With all of Jerry Buss' amazing decisions over the course of his career as owner he made more bad decisions on coaches than good ones. Jerry Buss hired among others: Dunleavy, Randy Pfund, Rambis, Magic, Del Harris, Rudy T, Mike Brown, D'Antoni. He made two great coaching decisions with Phil and Riles (and Riles was not his first choice, West was until West suddenly deferred).

I do think Jim might be one great coaching hire away from breaking through as an owner. He seems to be better with his player moves than he is with his coaching decisions so far.

The bigger issue for me is that he is a self professed stat geek and by all accounts has next to zero people skills which is the critical thing for an owner. He is missing the thing that made his Dad so great.

I agree with every bit of this assessment.

And I think that's why Jerry had the foresight to put Jeanie in the limelight while Jim works behind the scenes. I think the problem so far has been Jeanie and Jim not getting along, but recent reports make me think that their relationship has improved over the last year and especially after their father died.

I think we all wanted the three headed monster to be Mitch, Phil, and Jim. Instead I think we're getting something more like Mitch, Jeanie (+ Phil), and Jim and I'm okay with that.

I just want the guy to get his due justice. So many want to just pile on him for EVERYTHING when there's plenty of blame pie to share.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Helljumper on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:43 pm

... Am I on Clublakers? Definitely did not expect to come into this thread and see most of the posts on this page actually judging Jim's performance the past few years rationally instead of just more "LOL JIM BUST"
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby TIME on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:52 pm

Helljumper wrote:... Am I on Clublakers? Definitely did not expect to come into this thread and see most of the posts on this page actually judging Jim's performance the past few years rationally instead of just more "LOL JIM BUST"


Well, in fairness to the LOL crowd, I did call him a Grade A Knucklehead a few posts up. :man3: :man1:
Vitti uttered three words that surely applies to how Bryant made two free throws on one leg, walked off the court on his own and processed his rehabilitation plan amid the pain, frustration and tears.

“That’s really cool.”
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby noobiew on Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:00 pm

Memo to Jim Buss = #STAYD12
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