Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Alcindor on Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:18 pm

Just getting this back on track to Jim...

Does anyone actually know for certain what basketball calls Jim has made on his own as opposed to just going along with Mitch's calls?

We don't know if and when Jim has gone against Mitch and put his foot down as far as decisions go. That info is really not let out. I'm sure many of you have now seen the interview with Mitch and B Scott on TWC and when asked about decision making Mitch said that Dr Buss would not get involved most of the time until a big major player decision came around because he wanted to be a part of those and feel hands on. That does not mean that he countered any moves that were already being discussed by Mitch or did anything other than to jump in and say "yeah, let's do it, let's spend that money or trade that player". Maybe at times he did counter him and say "No, Mitch". We don't know.

And we don't know that Jim is any different except that he is a lot more involved with player stats and numbers than Dr Buss was. The one thing where I believe Mitch was not fully making the calls over the last several years has been coaching. This is based on comments from Mitch and Jim. We all heard that Brown snowed Jim with his dvds so we can tag him for that one as well as Tomjanovich, which per Wiki, was also Jim's call. Per Jim himself, D'Antoni was actually Dr Buss's call. Per Mitch, Jim was really happy about PJ likely coming back after they spoke to him a few years ago. I believe that Jim was told by the Dr to work in concert with Mitch and follow his lead. Whether he does or not, who knows. I tend to believe that he does follow Mitch's lead or else I'm not too sure Mitch would stick around and take the beating to his general management credibility. Dr Buss hired Mitch to run basketball for him. Jim's in there helping and being hands on but I think he ultimately listens to Mitch about players. Bynum was found by our scout and then highly touted to Mitch and Jim. Supposedly Jim then pushed for his drafting. Great call if true, but there is no way to know that Mitch wasn't in full agreement with this anyways and that Jim simply took credit for it by calling Bynum his guy. There is one other player I think Jim had a hand in and that's Nash. Mitch said that Nash wasn't even on his radar but that Jim kept bringing him up so he finally called and woolah, deal.

So the 4 calls by Jim we actually DO know something about are, Tomjanovich, Brown, Bynum & Nash. Bad, Bad, Good and I give him a pass on Nash as much as it's killing me to have him on our roster. The Raptors were ready to drop 36 mil on Nash, no one knew his body was ready to break like a pretzle. If Nash's body had held up it would have been considered a good call.

I also think the extra time taken to announce Scott's hiring as coach was to demonstrate that care is being taken rather than because of waiting to see how the roster pans out. Scott was getting the job regardless of roster moves.

Howard leaving for nothing was a loss but imo a chance worth taking. Nash was risky and the pairing of him with D'Antonio to bring '06 Sun's ball to LA was a bit of a failed pipe dream perhaps but at least it was a plan to get us through the last Kobe years with a chance to be competitive. Last year was a disaster injury-wise and we are not set up this year either. My hope for this year is for Scott to show strong leadership and get them playing D consistently, hope for good health and an 8th seed in the west with a few good player pickups either now or at the deadline. Randle to become a beast. And I give Buss and Mitch until next season to start really turning it around. (of course, an 8th seed would be really turning it around from last season anyways).
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Vasashi17 on Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:58 pm

I agree...let's get this discussion back on track.

Alcindor, for the longest time Jim did get credit for Bynum, but it wasn't till I looked into the mass firings of 2011 (which by the way, was yet another thing we can attribute to JIm along with this flattering comment he made about scouts: "Evaluating basketball talent is not too difficult. If you grabbed 10 fans out of a bar and asked them to rate prospects, their opinions would be pretty much identical to those of the pro scouts."), that I realized that Jim had been getting all the credit that was really intended for the guy he fired, in Ronnie Lester.

Lester won a title as a player for the Lakers. He's been a part of seven more as part of the front office.

He was the first Lakers employee to scout Andrew Bynum back at the McDonald's All-American camp in 2005 and the loudest Lakers employee to recommend the chubby 7-foot, 275-pound high school center from New Jersey with the 10th overall pick in the 2005 draft.

Though Bynum is a grown man now, going into his seventh season whenever this lockout ends, when I caught up with him Thursday afternoon, Lester told the story of the first time he saw Bynum like it was yesterday.

"Coach Bill Bertka and myself went to watch him during the week of practice they had before the McDonald's All-American Game," he said. "He was just so big. … The first time I saw Andrew Bynum come out of the locker room, I pointed and said to Coach Bertka, 'Who is that?'

"He was overweight, chubby faced, chubby bodied. He needed to get in shape, but what a difference from the other high school kids."

Two months later he took a redeye to New York to watch him again.

"I didn't recognize him. He had lost 30 pounds," Lester said. "That in and of itself, that kid losing 30 pounds in two months, that was pretty impressive right there. You knew the kid would work if he wanted something bad enough.

"After the workout, I called Mitch … and told him 'If he's there at 10, I don't know how you can pass the guy up.'"

A few months later, Lester arranged for Bynum to work out privately in Chicago for Jim Buss, the team's executive vice president of player personnel.

"He liked the kid, as we all did," Lester recalled. "When you're going to draft a high school kid, I think you have to get ownership behind you. Jimmy saw the kid and he liked him."

A few days before this year's draft, Lester met with Jim Buss again.

He asked one last time whether it was too late to change the course the team had decided to take.

It was.

"Look, bad things happen all the time," Lester said. "It's how you react that matters. That's how I have to look at it. I'm trying to see it as an opportunity."

But right now there is only loss. The Lakers' loss.


I honestly feel that Jim gets a bad rep, because he sincerely wants to leave a lasting impression on the organization, but the manner in which he tries to do it, just comes off so poorly.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Chillbongo on Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:05 pm

Interesting.....so Bynum was a Lester pick after all.

A hand-pick. All these years I thought he was Jimmy's guy.

Maybe we don't know how the Lakers FO operates after all. Maybe we should have faith. Or maybe, maybe it's the 20 oz beer I had with dinner.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby therealdeal on Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:12 pm

There's no reason not to be optimistic about them at this moment. They almost convinced Carmelo when he wasn't even considering us at first, they found a lot of jewels in the rough with Davis, Lin, Henry, Young, Kelly, and maybe Randle and Clarkson as well.

They've got a solid history through their tenure right now. Some gambles that lost, but they were decent gambles. Obviously the Stern hurt, but we're recovering about as well as we could hope.

There's got to be some patience here. You don't go from Dr. Buss to the next group without SOME hiccups. They're doing alright so far. If they strike out on free agents 3 years in a row on free agents and we keep missing the playoffs... then it's time to panic.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Alcindor on Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:24 pm

Yeah I'm sure Bynum would have got picked regardless of Jim. So that leaves Tomjanovich, Brown and Nash as his known player/coach calls. Then there was the mass firing. The comments about any fan in a bar being to judge prospects was ridiculous. The average fan in a bar doesn't know any non-NBA players outside of maybe the current top kids in college, and that's the ones that are a little more serious about hoops .
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby lukewaltonsdad on Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:37 pm

therealdeal wrote:There's no reason not to be optimistic about them at this moment. They almost convinced Carmelo when he wasn't even considering us at first, they found a lot of jewels in the rough with Davis, Lin, Henry, Young, Kelly, and maybe Randle and Clarkson as well.

They've got a solid history through their tenure right now. Some gambles that lost, but they were decent gambles. Obviously the Stern hurt, but we're recovering about as well as we could hope.

There's got to be some patience here. You don't go from Dr. Buss to the next group without SOME hiccups. They're doing alright so far. If they strike out on free agents 3 years in a row on free agents and we keep missing the playoffs... then it's time to panic.


I like your thinking Real, and I agree with your perspective wholeheartedly. I'm quite aware of our mismanagement of Gasol, the horrible Nash trade, and quite frankly the botched coaching hires of both Mike's; I don't like calling Phil at midnight especially after what he did for the Organization. Our Front Office is not perfect; no Front Office is in the league. There are some things that flat out frustrated me with Jeannie, Jim, and Mitch. There's no scapegoat in my book. They need to all share the blame equally when they make mistakes.

Now, having said that, I've moved forward...right now, we're in a position to be in the next two drafts; we traded for the Houston 1st and upgraded our PG position. We'll have our 1st and 2nd next year in 2016, also. Essentially, as I mentioned in another thread, we're looking at 3 players that can come in and we can develop to fill a need or we can trade down the line. We don't have our 2017 picks, but as Mitch just proved, you could trade for a pick in coming off an expiring, or you can buy one; just as he did with the 46th pick in Clarkston for 1.8 million. Point is, there are different ways to get into the draft.

Additionally, we'll have room to add more players with our cap space via trade or Free Agency. I know some don't like that tactic; swinging and missing ever year in the Free Agent Market. That's the same strategy that Dallas has employed & they finally settled for Ellis who signed last year and Parsons to pair up with their aging superstar in Dirk. Will that happen to us? I don't know. But for better or worse, that's the strategy that the Lakers elected to go with...

I also remember something that stuck with me last year; it was a point Vasashi made and it really went under the radar in regards to D'Antoni. I'll try my best to recollect and paraphrase He mentioned the players we had Xavier, Wesley, Marshall, Farmar, weren't getting developed properly...they weren't getting taught defensive principles, they were settling for too many 3's, etc...this is why I like the Scott hire and his more disciplined approach, and I like it for the Randle's, Kelly's, Clarkston, Xavier's of the world; employ a defensive strategy, and hold these young players accountable to play defense and work their butt off on that end...that's where it starts for me.

Offensively, Scott will emphasize a system that he's said will involve more PNR, Post-ups, and some off-shoots of the Princeton; again, not shooting an absurd amount of 3's...some players will need to adjust; Young for example might have to play more off-ball which he hasn't done a lot of in his career; where Kobe will thrive when operating in a set system. As we know, he's played in the Triangle for years...

Scott is the right hire at the right time for this Lakers Organization and players...also, not to mention, that Magic & Worthy were apart of the pitch to Carmelo...I also loved watching them at Scott's press conference. It's not only a flashback to our glorious past, but I believe a look into our future where these voices of the past who have succeeded tremendously on and off the basketball court will be more involved in the Lakers Organization.

I'm excited about the future, and I believe we're in good hands...this is a result oriented business, though. I understand that. But during this process, I'll focus on the positive, remain patient, while watching the Lakers get back on top...
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Vasashi17 on Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:57 pm

I agree with Real somewhat....I believe there's plenty to warrant criticism by the fanbase towards the FO. However, their regime is pretty much in its infancy still, so patience should be cautiously exercised by the fans.

One thing I have noticed is that public approval is something that management is desperately seeking. I know there are many intangibles when it comes to our basketball operations, but I'm focusing on the marketing aspect here. The Lakers have Kobe and we know the Kobe brand reaches another level of star power in the international markets. Yao (our plan A ver. 2006) is out of the picture, so bringing in Lin to pair with Kobe is a huge motivator for the Lakers. I see why they went that route when they swung for the fences yet again, and whiffed.

If they're not going to be a title team, then at least come into the good graces of the fanbase in order to buy time to give them what they truly want: #17 and beyond. Till then, feel good stories is something we can tolerate and extend our patience with, which is exactly what management wants till plan A ver. 2015 comes along. If that doesn't work....there is no in between....they'll just delay till ver. 2016 comes along. There is no plan B or C...just plan D--lay....lay back in the cuts till a plan A becomes available (like a distraught Pau in Memphis, or a CP3 in NO, or a D12 in Orlando....)

Jimmy's lost alot of the fans with his recent actions. So damage control is bringing back familiar faces like Farmar, a LA kid in SwaggyP and Rambis as an assistant coach when Dwight decided to head on out. Then its to get Jeanie, who does have a far superior approval rating compared to her brother, to join and become the head of the round table when they exiled Phil. Its to give Kobe that legacy contract, which was shockingly met with cynicism but only after we got the contract details. But that's fine, cause we still have a max slot open to give Kobe and the fanbase a running mate in Melo that was far more compatible with the Mamba than Howard was. But then they struck out there too, so they bring in Lin, keep the hometown Swag and bring in a Laker legend at coach after much due diligence which they didn't do quite diligently the previous go around.

IMHO, we have to know that we're not title contenders. So the FO will attempt to appease the fan base and hope that we rest on our laurels of our past excellence in order to buy the front office some more time to swing for the fences again. Unfortunately for the FO, the fans did notice that our previous excellence fell on deaf ears during our last couple free agency pitches....and soon enough, we won't give a damn about our Laker lore if the current product continues to be a Laker sore.

And LWD (aka lukewaltonsdad), I wholeheartedly agree with you. All you've heard Scott say in nearly every public statement is defense defense defense. Not to mention he's got a great rapport with Kobe. Those two will make sure there is no hot-doggin on the defensive end next year. Also, you have to like that Scott mentored Kobe, so he'll be able to tell Kob to take a seat without bowing down to the Mamba's wishes of playing all 48. In order to develop; properly, you need to lay down the foundation and groom our youth the right way. I hope Scott can....but at least I'm thankful I can hope again. With D'Antoni, all hope was lost.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby therealdeal on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:15 am

I'm with you guys for the most part. Obviously I'm the resident optimist so I see things a tad more rosy than Vasashi :man9: , but I see a lot of good and bad coming from the front office.

As for their plan to swing for the fences every summer... I understand both sides completely and I'm honestly not sure who is right and who is wrong. On the one hand we could be the Mavericks. On the other hand, in 2016, we could be the Heat. Given our franchise's history and ability to attract Free Agents, I think we should definitely lean towards the Heat BUT... that's a long time from now and until then we need to see this positive train keep rolling.

That means Scott has to exceed this team's expectations. That means Kobe needs to show that he can a) stay healthy and b) change his game to suit his age and ability. That means the young kids need to be on a solid but fast-paced growth track. That means we need to either add solid pieces for cheap in the summer (Young) or hit a ground-rule double and grab a nice free agent when we can.

The inclusion of Magic, Worthy, and Kareem was great. It's something we need more of. Is it part PR? Sure, of course it is, but that doesn't mean it's not the RIGHT thing to do. Having those guys around will help solidify the culture of this team and bring back that winning mentality. These kids like Lin and Randle might have it in them to be Champions, but they need to learn it from somewhere first.

We're on a good track right now. It remains to be seen if it gets us to the Promise Land, but for now there's good reason for optimism here.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby NomisR on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:41 am

Chillbongo wrote:Interesting.....so Bynum was a Lester pick after all.

A hand-pick. All these years I thought he was Jimmy's guy.

Maybe we don't know how the Lakers FO operates after all. Maybe we should have faith. Or maybe, maybe it's the 20 oz beer I had with dinner.


I remember reading that Lester actually wanted Gerald Green.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby NomisR on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:57 am

Alcindor wrote:Yeah I'm sure Bynum would have got picked regardless of Jim. So that leaves Tomjanovich, Brown and Nash as his known player/coach calls. Then there was the mass firing. The comments about any fan in a bar being to judge prospects was ridiculous. The average fan in a bar doesn't know any non-NBA players outside of maybe the current top kids in college, and that's the ones that are a little more serious about hoops .


Rudy T was a winning coach that had won championships, I think if he worked out, he wouldn't be bad for the team, but coming back from cancer and the additional stress/travel on him with coaching probably doesn't help things. You can't really call this as a bad choice as logically, it was a good choice that didn't work out

With Mike Brown hire, you have to look at other candidates, you had Rick Adelman, and Brian Shaw. Look at how Rick Adelman turned out, he's still not working out for the Twolves. Brian Shaw was an apprentice of Phil Jackson, who lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs, I think the front office wants to move on considering if the master can't do it, his apprentice isnt' going to do any better. And as we've seen in Denver, he's hasn't done it yet either. With Mike Brown, at least he had his record and finals experience that's better than the other 2 coaches. And they had the backing of Kobe, since when Kobe was asked what he wanted for next year, he said more defense. And with Brown, he was known for defense. But either way, no matter who took over would've gotten criticized because he wasn't Phil.

Now Nash, people were expecting injuries and time off from Nash. That was expected. But the collision that resulted in bone fracture and complicated into nerve damage was not. That's where it fell apart. Murphy hit us.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Savory Griddles on Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:58 am

Chillbongo wrote:Interesting.....so Bynum was a Lester pick after all.

A hand-pick. All these years I thought he was Jimmy's guy.

Maybe we don't know how the Lakers FO operates after all. Maybe we should have faith. Or maybe, maybe it's the 20 oz beer I had with dinner.


What kind of beer?
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby NomisR on Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:14 am

I'm still trying to figure out the Jim Buss hate here. I'm no fan here but finding the hate unreasonable.

You guys talk about mass firing, it was a lock out season, just because it didn't happen in other organizations doesn't mean it didn't happen. Again, there was an NBA lockout.. and the franchise was going in a different direction. And as far as scouting goes, our team seems to have done better talent wise with the different pieces than we have previously. So i'm not sure how that's bad.

And then there's Chaz the bartender who isn't even a bar tender at all but a media fabricated story.

And then you have the Jim Buss's Ego story that was again media fabricated as it was known that Jim was the one that wanted Phil back after Rudy T, and then he was the one that wanted to see if Phil wanted to come back after Mike Brown. Phil was reluctant to coach and didn't want to coach long term. So they moved on. Calling him in the middle of the night was simply because they didn't want him to find out from the media, I get it.. since Phil's an [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] and would say [Swearing is not permitted at Clublakers. You must edit this post prior to submitting.] things when he finds out... which he ended up saying anyways in order to promote his book. But once he revised his book with an update, we find out exactly what happened. But of course, you have this media fabricated story line deeply ingrained in the fan's minds because the lie was repeated enough times.

Mike D'Antoni was a no win situation because he's no Phil. He was never given a chance from the beginning even though he made perfect sense. Nash was the best P&R PG in the league. Dwight Howard was the best P&G big in the league. But ever since he came to LA, Shaq got into his head that he needed to be a post up center and refused to play P&R. Who would've known that a player would refuse to play the game that he did for the past 8 years? And then you had record number of injuries in both years, there's no way that Phil Jackson would've been able to do any better anyways.

As for Pau, you can't really blame him, it all started going down hill since the CP3 deal got Sterned. And the media fabricated stories about trades after trades regardless of it being true or not. There's no good possible trade we could've gotten for him without it eating into our cap space, so we ended up getting Boozer for cheap. Nothing really lost...

All in all, other than the media fabricated stories that simply weren't true, there's not a whole lot you can blame on Jim. Hell, considering he's the only VP of player personally that anyone knows in the NBA .. why shine the spot light on him? Shouldn't it be about Mitch?
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Vasashi17 on Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:41 pm

To each their own Nomis. I'm neither claiming that I have all the answers or that I know all the intricacies of the inner-workings in El Segundo. But I can tell you why I, and I alone, am not too fond of Jimmy, based on my own interpretations of what is readily made available for public consumption (fabricated or otherwise).

First and foremost, you are correct about Chaz. He's no bartender. Here's an article that says just as much and more:

They met years ago while hanging out at the horse tracks. One of them was trying to manage his rich and famous father’s horses. The other was a garrulous sort, oodles of charm but no money. He was looking to find his luck.

The horse business didn’t work out so famously for either of them. But they had found each other and friendship is always a rare and precious discovery.

Chaz Osborne would say time and again over the ensuing years that he would have nothing if it weren’t for Jim Buss. “Jim, that’s his boy,” explained one of Osborne’s friends recently.

Jim Buss would later explain his horse experience by saying that he found “some success” there.

Others wouldn’t be so kind in describing those days hanging out at the tracks with Chaz.

But that doesn’t matter. Jim’s father was Jerry Buss, owner of the Los Angeles Lakers, and it was decided he would go into management training to learn how to run the team as a basketball executive.

There was a good bit of eye rolling, particularly in his own family, but, hey, he would be training with Jerry West and Mitch Kupchak and Ronnie Lester. In time, there would be some media scrutiny at the oddity of his training as a scout, at the idea that he was the Buss son chosen to someday inherit the running of the franchise.

Jim Buss responded with his now famous quote. "Evaluating basketball talent is not too difficult," he told Sports Illustrated many years ago. "If you grabbed 10 fans out of a bar and asked them to rate prospects, their opinions would be pretty much identical to those of the pro scouts."

That quote set Jerry West’s stomach acid to boiling, but, hey, West’s stomach acid was always boiling. Besides, the Logo left the organization after Phil Jackson took over as coach. Educating Jim Buss became the task for Kupchak and Lester. And that went pretty well, by most accounts, despite a sibling rivalry in the organization that pitted team marketing executive Jeanie Buss, and Jackson’s girlfriend, against her brother Jim.

In time, the complaints leaked from Jeanie’s side about the supposed ineptitude of Jim. He was a terrible communicator, they said. He didn’t even have an office in the team headquarters, they said. The Lakers will fall apart once he takes over, they said.

But the biggest charge of all? That Jim Buss, party dude, had put his personal bartender on the team payroll. That, of course, would be his old horse track buddy, Chaz Osborne.

Well, that day has arrived. Jim Buss is now in charge of the Lakers. Phil Jackson has retired. Jeanie Buss, once very involved with the team, keeps her distance and rarely attends games.

And various members of the press, most notably myself, have played Chicken Little, running around looking for signs that the sky is falling.

That may well be. Only time will reveal the direction of the Lakers, who face new challenges in a new era for pro basketball.

But it’s time to set the record straight. Chaz Osborne is no bartender.

He’s gotten some scrutiny in recent months due to the fact that he’s now one third of the scouting staff for the Lakers.

He’s a good-natured sort (although he did not return a call about this piece) and has quipped to friends that he probably needs to go to bartending school so that he can fit his public profile.

Other facts have emerged as well, according to one of his buddies. Chaz is a great guy, genuinely liked by many in the Lakers organization. He’s also comfortable hanging out at the bar with hoops celebs like Charles Barkley.

Plus Chaz is not shy about picking up a bar tab. He gets great comps from Las Vegas and he’s pretty free in sharing them, even with Lakers reserves, such as Luke Walton.

His pickup game is a work in progress. “He plays great defense,” says his friend, then admits that’s his way of being kind about the developing skills and lack of a shot.

But the friend points out that Chaz, who lives in San Diego and commutes to Lakers offices, is working really hard to become an excellent scout.

Chaz explained to friends that he’s really busy this year because Jim Buss laid off the scouting staff last summer that had produced so much Lakers success over the years. Those layoffs included Ronnie Lester, the trusted Lakers executive who had spent years helping to populate the roster with top talent.

Because of the layoffs, Chaz tells friends he’s seen more than 50 college games and works hard at sitting courtside and filling in the scouting reports for the Lakers.

There’s no word on how well Kupchak trusts the reports he gets from the new scouting staff. He and Chaz are said to be cordial when they happen to pass one another in a hotel lobby.

Chaz and Jim Buss, however, remain in close contact by phone. Jim Buss is described by many as more than a bit isolated from the NBA world, and Chaz certainly helps by providing opinions and discussing personnel.

And when Chaz steps to the window to pick up his pass for road games, he always makes sure to remark that Jim Buss arranged the passes for him.

It may well be that Chaz and Jim parlay their eye for horses into something relevant as far as human hoops talent.

About the only thing that’s clear right now is that Jim Buss seems determined to prove the theorem he articulated to Sports Illustrated years ago. Some guys from a bar are as good as any ol’ professional scout.

It’s important to draw the line between the guys at the bar and the bartenders themselves, it seems.


So now that we got that out of the way, we kind of have a general feeling of who Jimmy is and how Chaz came into the picture. And to think, even if it were true that Chaz was Jimmy's personal bartender, then that isn't even the most damning thing about Chaz...its the fact that he essentially took over Lester's position.

Which brings us to the mass firings of 2011. True its a lockout and true there could be casualties. But we're talking about a massive amount of loyal employees (some even having 25+ year tenures) getting axed. Getting past the numbers, we then realize that a majority of those guys either took a liking to Phil or were part of Phil's inner network (aka Phil's peeples).

The way they did Shaw I still consider foul. Even when Jerry Buss was at the helm and Shaw was a player, they waived the dude to potentially save a little over 1M in taxes....and the funny thing is that they had no idea if it would even save them any money or not.

"I'm not sure how it's going to work out. I do know that Brian's contributions to this team have been exceptional, that he's one of the team's better players. I know he has been a key ingredient to their winning these last two championships. This is a gamble on their part that, frankly, I would not have taken. And we have not entered into any deal."

Kupchak, who presented the news to Shaw, said the transaction was the cost to the organization of adding Mitch Richmond, Samaki Walker and Lindsey Hunter in the off-season. The luxury tax ceiling has been projected at about $54.7 million, though the exact number won't be known until after the season. The Lakers were over that, by at least $1 million, with Shaw.

"Before we waived Brian, we probably were in it," Kupchak said. "We may still end up in it. We're kind of working in the dark."


Luckily for us, he cleared waivers and we re-signed him for the vet min where he helped get us that 3peat. Fast forward to Shaw working on Phil's staff and with Phil leaving in 2011, Shaw wasn't even given a call for the vacant position at coach. The years that guy put into the Lakers, like Ronnie Lester, and he was ousted like a leper for being "Phil's peeples".

Which brings us to the ego of Jimmy. Make no mistakes about it...Phil leaving the first time was an out right firing of the Zenmaster. We know Kobe obviously had a say in the matter...but the manner in which we quickly committed to Rudy T says alot. First, its on public record that the hiring was Jimmy's first sole venture in his ascension to the owner's chair. He interviewed Rudy and offered him that ridiculous 5 year 30M deal. 41 games later, dude says he's mentally too exhausted to honor the remainder of the contract and him walking away had nothing to do with his previous struggles with bladder cancer. As we do with most of Jimmy's coaching decisions, we threw money at it as part of a severance package and he still works for the Lakers as a consultant. Coincidentally, this is when Kobe also asked for more structure in the offense, even getting as specific as to ask for the triangle back. He didn't like the free flowing offense that Rudy3 had enabled (well I'll be mDAmned, that sounds vaguely familiar doesn't it?) Jimmy ducks back into the shadows as Phil appears to come back after a year sabbatical.

But that's the thing about Jerry Buss. He'll make a wrong right and he respected that many season ticket holders would refuse to re-up if they didn't get a re-Phil. Fast-forward to the "We Want Phil" chants and Jimmy largely ignores those same ticket-holders by going with MDA after much "due diligence." I actually have a feeling that the midnight call to Phil was Mitch's own conscience urging him to make the call. Mitch had a great rapport with Phil; had endeared through Jimmy firing his lead assistant and friend, Lester, and replacing him with Chaz; so I'm thinking, Mitch just couldn't let Phil find out in the papers/social media that MDA got the job over him. So he placed the late night call, out of respect for Phil and Jeanie.

Look there is no secret that Jimmy has daddy issues. Unlike Jeanie, Jimmy couldn't just go strip down and sprawl out over daddy's desk for Playboy. Jerry Buss had no problem calling a 5 time champion and a guy that was given the name "Magic", his son....meanwhile Jeanie was bringing in a 13 time champion and the greatest coach ever as a son-in-law. You can imagine how Jimmy must have felt to get daddy's attention to pass the salt at that dinner table. This is what led to the Phil oustings and Magic selling his Laker shares. Unlike Jerry Buss, Jimmy doesn't want to keep basketball minds around to make basketball decisions. He wants to make a mark on this franchise to show himself and his late dad, that he doesn't only make bad, costly decisions (ie coaching hires). I sincerely believe that Jimmy wants to do right for the organization and indirectly for fan approval....but that is only to feed his own ego.

And that is where we come to probably the thing that bothers me the most about Jimmy. He will take credit and come out of hiding to bask in praises delivered by the fans when things appear to be good. When that bat connects and we're rounding the bases, Jimmy peeks his head adorned with a baseball cap, out of the dugout. And that's exactly what happened with Bynum and the Dwight and Nash deals. But the second things aren't going in our favor, he goes into hiding and gets Mitch, Jeanie or Laker legends to come out and bear the burden.

If a bad decision is made and we know its Jimmy, he ends up defending himself by using Mitch to voice why that decision was made. People claim that MDA was hired over Phil because Jimmy wanted to give his dad, one last glimpse of "Showtime" before he passed. Uhhh, correct me if I'm wrong, but Jerry Buss always claimed how he wanted to one up "those guys". I feel like #17 was much more important to him, then the style in which we played the game. If it was Showtime-esque, then great, but more than anything, if we gave Jerry a glimpse at a legitimate title contender before he passed, I"m sure he would've been happy. Instead we rush to hire MDA after we stated that we would exercise due diligence. I mean, there are no other bidders to compete for his services since we were only 5 games into the season at that time. MDA just had a leg surgery and was clearly all loopy from the meds during his introductory presser....meanwhile Bickerstaff had already had head coaching experience in this league and was sporting a 4-1 record....please tell me, what was the rush in inking MDA that fast? Has to be Jimmy's ego...especially since you already had Kobe, Pau and Artest all who have played and won titles in the triangle, Dwight playing the 5, which was the easiest position to learn in the triangle and yet we go the other way, ignoring the fans' own opinion with their chants going in vain, in the process. There are no certainties that that particular team was a sure-fire contender. But when you look at the personnel on that team and you look at the 11-0 coaching ring count...uh, I'm not sure you go the other way by choosing style over title contention. And then to add insult to injury, Jimmy has Mitch trot out to the press and actually defend the decision by stating that our team was too dumb to learn the triangle in time to salvage the season....plus, looking at our aged personnel, they deemed that MDA's uptempo structure was better fitted than the triangle was for this particular group of guys. :man3:

Listen, I don't know for sure what was fabricated or what wasn't.....but my own deduction from everything that we do know results in Jimmy warranting criticism. If you still choose not to, then more power to you for being the more patient man. I'm just not made that way...and it appears many fans aren't either.

And btw, I'm not completely sold on Mitch's magic wand either. I know there are some fans like me that have openly questioned whether Mitch can attain success in this rapidly evolving market.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby NomisR on Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:06 pm

Vasashi17 wrote:To each their own Nomis. I'm neither claiming that I have all the answers or that I know all the intricacies of the inner-workings in El Segundo. But I can tell you why I, and I alone, am not too fond of Jimmy, based on my own interpretations of what is readily made available for public consumption (fabricated or otherwise).

First and foremost, you are correct about Chaz. He's no bartender. Here's an article that says just as much and more:

They met years ago while hanging out at the horse tracks. One of them was trying to manage his rich and famous father’s horses. The other was a garrulous sort, oodles of charm but no money. He was looking to find his luck.

The horse business didn’t work out so famously for either of them. But they had found each other and friendship is always a rare and precious discovery.

Chaz Osborne would say time and again over the ensuing years that he would have nothing if it weren’t for Jim Buss. “Jim, that’s his boy,” explained one of Osborne’s friends recently.

Jim Buss would later explain his horse experience by saying that he found “some success” there.

Others wouldn’t be so kind in describing those days hanging out at the tracks with Chaz.

But that doesn’t matter. Jim’s father was Jerry Buss, owner of the Los Angeles Lakers, and it was decided he would go into management training to learn how to run the team as a basketball executive.

There was a good bit of eye rolling, particularly in his own family, but, hey, he would be training with Jerry West and Mitch Kupchak and Ronnie Lester. In time, there would be some media scrutiny at the oddity of his training as a scout, at the idea that he was the Buss son chosen to someday inherit the running of the franchise.

Jim Buss responded with his now famous quote. "Evaluating basketball talent is not too difficult," he told Sports Illustrated many years ago. "If you grabbed 10 fans out of a bar and asked them to rate prospects, their opinions would be pretty much identical to those of the pro scouts."

That quote set Jerry West’s stomach acid to boiling, but, hey, West’s stomach acid was always boiling. Besides, the Logo left the organization after Phil Jackson took over as coach. Educating Jim Buss became the task for Kupchak and Lester. And that went pretty well, by most accounts, despite a sibling rivalry in the organization that pitted team marketing executive Jeanie Buss, and Jackson’s girlfriend, against her brother Jim.

In time, the complaints leaked from Jeanie’s side about the supposed ineptitude of Jim. He was a terrible communicator, they said. He didn’t even have an office in the team headquarters, they said. The Lakers will fall apart once he takes over, they said.

But the biggest charge of all? That Jim Buss, party dude, had put his personal bartender on the team payroll. That, of course, would be his old horse track buddy, Chaz Osborne.

Well, that day has arrived. Jim Buss is now in charge of the Lakers. Phil Jackson has retired. Jeanie Buss, once very involved with the team, keeps her distance and rarely attends games.

And various members of the press, most notably myself, have played Chicken Little, running around looking for signs that the sky is falling.

That may well be. Only time will reveal the direction of the Lakers, who face new challenges in a new era for pro basketball.

But it’s time to set the record straight. Chaz Osborne is no bartender.

He’s gotten some scrutiny in recent months due to the fact that he’s now one third of the scouting staff for the Lakers.

He’s a good-natured sort (although he did not return a call about this piece) and has quipped to friends that he probably needs to go to bartending school so that he can fit his public profile.

Other facts have emerged as well, according to one of his buddies. Chaz is a great guy, genuinely liked by many in the Lakers organization. He’s also comfortable hanging out at the bar with hoops celebs like Charles Barkley.

Plus Chaz is not shy about picking up a bar tab. He gets great comps from Las Vegas and he’s pretty free in sharing them, even with Lakers reserves, such as Luke Walton.

His pickup game is a work in progress. “He plays great defense,” says his friend, then admits that’s his way of being kind about the developing skills and lack of a shot.

But the friend points out that Chaz, who lives in San Diego and commutes to Lakers offices, is working really hard to become an excellent scout.

Chaz explained to friends that he’s really busy this year because Jim Buss laid off the scouting staff last summer that had produced so much Lakers success over the years. Those layoffs included Ronnie Lester, the trusted Lakers executive who had spent years helping to populate the roster with top talent.

Because of the layoffs, Chaz tells friends he’s seen more than 50 college games and works hard at sitting courtside and filling in the scouting reports for the Lakers.

There’s no word on how well Kupchak trusts the reports he gets from the new scouting staff. He and Chaz are said to be cordial when they happen to pass one another in a hotel lobby.

Chaz and Jim Buss, however, remain in close contact by phone. Jim Buss is described by many as more than a bit isolated from the NBA world, and Chaz certainly helps by providing opinions and discussing personnel.

And when Chaz steps to the window to pick up his pass for road games, he always makes sure to remark that Jim Buss arranged the passes for him.

It may well be that Chaz and Jim parlay their eye for horses into something relevant as far as human hoops talent.

About the only thing that’s clear right now is that Jim Buss seems determined to prove the theorem he articulated to Sports Illustrated years ago. Some guys from a bar are as good as any ol’ professional scout.

It’s important to draw the line between the guys at the bar and the bartenders themselves, it seems.


So now that we got that out of the way, we kind of have a general feeling of who Jimmy is and how Chaz came into the picture. And to think, even if it were true that Chaz was Jimmy's personal bartender, then that isn't even the most damning thing about Chaz...its the fact that he essentially took over Lester's position.

Which brings us to the mass firings of 2011. True its a lockout and true there could be casualties. But we're talking about a massive amount of loyal employees (some even having 25+ year tenures) getting axed. Getting past the numbers, we then realize that a majority of those guys either took a liking to Phil or were part of Phil's inner network (aka Phil's peeples).

The way they did Shaw I still consider foul. Even when Jerry Buss was at the helm and Shaw was a player, they waived the dude to potentially save a little over 1M in taxes....and the funny thing is that they had no idea if it would even save them any money or not.

"I'm not sure how it's going to work out. I do know that Brian's contributions to this team have been exceptional, that he's one of the team's better players. I know he has been a key ingredient to their winning these last two championships. This is a gamble on their part that, frankly, I would not have taken. And we have not entered into any deal."

Kupchak, who presented the news to Shaw, said the transaction was the cost to the organization of adding Mitch Richmond, Samaki Walker and Lindsey Hunter in the off-season. The luxury tax ceiling has been projected at about $54.7 million, though the exact number won't be known until after the season. The Lakers were over that, by at least $1 million, with Shaw.

"Before we waived Brian, we probably were in it," Kupchak said. "We may still end up in it. We're kind of working in the dark."


Luckily for us, he cleared waivers and we re-signed him for the vet min where he helped get us that 3peat. Fast forward to Shaw working on Phil's staff and with Phil leaving in 2011, Shaw wasn't even given a call for the vacant position at coach. The years that guy put into the Lakers, like Ronnie Lester, and he was ousted like a leper for being "Phil's peeples".

Which brings us to the ego of Jimmy. Make no mistakes about it...Phil leaving the first time was an out right firing of the Zenmaster. We know Kobe obviously had a say in the matter...but the manner in which we quickly committed to Rudy T says alot. First, its on public record that the hiring was Jimmy's first sole venture in his ascension to the owner's chair. He interviewed Rudy and offered him that ridiculous 5 year 30M deal. 41 games later, dude says he's mentally too exhausted to honor the remainder of the contract and him walking away had nothing to do with his previous struggles with bladder cancer. As we do with most of Jimmy's coaching decisions, we threw money at it as part of a severance package and he still works for the Lakers as a consultant. Coincidentally, this is when Kobe also asked for more structure in the offense, even getting as specific as to ask for the triangle back. He didn't like the free flowing offense that Rudy3 had enabled (well I'll be mDAmned, that sounds vaguely familiar doesn't it?) Jimmy ducks back into the shadows as Phil appears to come back after a year sabbatical.

But that's the thing about Jerry Buss. He'll make a wrong right and he respected that many season ticket holders would refuse to re-up if they didn't get a re-Phil. Fast-forward to the "We Want Phil" chants and Jimmy largely ignores those same ticket-holders by going with MDA after much "due diligence." I actually have a feeling that the midnight call to Phil was Mitch's own conscience urging him to make the call. Mitch had a great rapport with Phil; had endeared through Jimmy firing his lead assistant and friend, Lester, and replacing him with Chaz; so I'm thinking, Mitch just couldn't let Phil find out in the papers/social media that MDA got the job over him. So he placed the late night call, out of respect for Phil and Jeanie.

Look there is no secret that Jimmy has daddy issues. Unlike Jeanie, Jimmy couldn't just go strip down and sprawl out over daddy's desk for Playboy. Jerry Buss had no problem calling a 5 time champion and a guy that was given the name "Magic", his son....meanwhile Jeanie was bringing in a 13 time champion and the greatest coach ever as a son-in-law. You can imagine how Jimmy must have felt to get daddy's attention to pass the salt at that dinner table. This is what led to the Phil oustings and Magic selling his Laker shares. Unlike Jerry Buss, Jimmy doesn't want to keep basketball minds around to make basketball decisions. He wants to make a mark on this franchise to show himself and his late dad, that he doesn't only make bad, costly decisions (ie coaching hires). I sincerely believe that Jimmy wants to do right for the organization and indirectly for fan approval....but that is only to feed his own ego.

And that is where we come to probably the thing that bothers me the most about Jimmy. He will take credit and come out of hiding to bask in praises delivered by the fans when things appear to be good. When that bat connects and we're rounding the bases, Jimmy peeks his head adorned with a baseball cap, out of the dugout. And that's exactly what happened with Bynum and the Dwight and Nash deals. But the second things aren't going in our favor, he goes into hiding and gets Mitch, Jeanie or Laker legends to come out and bear the burden.

If a bad decision is made and we know its Jimmy, he ends up defending himself by using Mitch to voice why that decision was made. People claim that MDA was hired over Phil because Jimmy wanted to give his dad, one last glimpse of "Showtime" before he passed. Uhhh, correct me if I'm wrong, but Jerry Buss always claimed how he wanted to one up "those guys". I feel like #17 was much more important to him, then the style in which we played the game. If it was Showtime-esque, then great, but more than anything, if we gave Jerry a glimpse at a legitimate title contender before he passed, I"m sure he would've been happy. Instead we rush to hire MDA after we stated that we would exercise due diligence. I mean, there are no other bidders to compete for his services since we were only 5 games into the season at that time. MDA just had a leg surgery and was clearly all loopy from the meds during his introductory presser....meanwhile Bickerstaff had already had head coaching experience in this league and was sporting a 4-1 record....please tell me, what was the rush in inking MDA that fast? Has to be Jimmy's ego...especially since you already had Kobe, Pau and Artest all who have played and won titles in the triangle, Dwight playing the 5, which was the easiest position to learn in the triangle and yet we go the other way, ignoring the fans' own opinion with their chants going in vain, in the process. There are no certainties that that particular team was a sure-fire contender. But when you look at the personnel on that team and you look at the 11-0 coaching ring count...uh, I'm not sure you go the other way by choosing style over title contention. And then to add insult to injury, Jimmy has Mitch trot out to the press and actually defend the decision by stating that our team was too dumb to learn the triangle in time to salvage the season....plus, looking at our aged personnel, they deemed that MDA's uptempo structure was better fitted than the triangle was for this particular group of guys. :man3:

Listen, I don't know for sure what was fabricated or what wasn't.....but my own deduction from everything that we do know results in Jimmy warranting criticism. If you still choose not to, then more power to you for being the more patient man. I'm just not made that way...and it appears many fans aren't either.

And btw, I'm not completely sold on Mitch's magic wand either. I know there are some fans like me that have openly questioned whether Mitch can attain success in this rapidly evolving market.



I think i have to go back to this article again

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baske ... -1.1869987

So I was surprised in early November when my fiancée, Jeanie, came home after meeting with her brother Jimmy, the Lakers’ head of basketball operations, and asked me to “please just hear him out” about returning to coach the team.


If this was about Jim Buss's ego, he would not have asked his sister to tell his fiancee to hear him out.

And if Jim went through that much trouble, why would he do that and then snub Phil again? That narrative makes absolutely no sense.

And then you have this

The meeting took place at my house on Saturday morning. Jimmy brought Mitch along and we talked mostly about whether I was up for doing the job. By then, I’d recovered from my Achilles tendon problem and I told them that I felt capable of handling the travel grind. To be honest, though, I was still ambivalent about returning to coaching. Now that I had begun to recover from my surgeries, I finally felt strong enough to start enjoying my retirement and I wasn’t keen on becoming a slave to the NBA schedule again.

...

. As they were leaving, I told Jimmy and Mitch that I needed time to think it over, but I’d be ready to give them an answer on Monday.

Most fans know what happened next. Mitch called me around midnight on Sunday and told me they had decided to hire another coach, Mike D’Antoni. I was a little stunned at first, but, on reflection, I realized why things fell apart so quickly. I was thinking of the job as a one-season gig, but Jimmy and Mitch were looking for a coach who could help them rebuild the team over the long haul. They were also eager to turn the Lakers back into the sort of fast-paced, high-scoring team they were in the Magic Johnson “Showtime” era — and D’Antoni was certainly a coach who could make that happen.


So not hiring Phil again was not a Jim Buss ego thing.

But that's not the media narrative.

And you talk about Jim Buss taking the credit, but then again, we as fans have been talking about Jim Buss never coming out to talk to fans, so how can he be taking the credit for things if he's not out in public. All this not trading Bynum, credit for Bynum, and everything else, was just a media narrative. He never publically came out to take credit for anything when those narratives were created.

I think you're just picking and choosing what to believe and you have the rights to your own opinion, but sometimes, the facts still shows otherwise.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Vasashi17 on Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:41 pm

He's not out in public recently, cause what is he supposed to take credit for exactly: 27-55?

Look at the moves we tried to make. We either go big (CP3, Dwight, Nash, Bron, Melo...) or we delay to go big again. In the meantime, the Lakers will try to appease the fanbase.

"We want Phil".....had the the Lakers not interviewed a very available and worthy candidate, then fans would view that as unacceptable. Introducing Phil as a candidate was definitely for the fans, but overlooking him to go with MDA backfired tremendously and they were much better off just dismissing Phil's candidacy from the jump.

Here's what Jimmy said about Drew:
While Bryant's security within the franchise couldn't be stronger, Buss wanted to dispel the widespread belief that his personal attachment to center Andrew Bynum would prevent the Lakers from ever trading their 24-year-old All-Star.

"It's just not true," said Buss, who had influence in the Lakers selecting Bynum with the No. 10 pick in the 2005 NBA draft. "It's not like I'm going out shopping Andrew Bynum, just nothing has ever come our way and I don't anticipate anything coming our way where I would want to trade Andrew Bynum. ... There just hasn't been anything for Andrew Bynum. Thank goodness we didn't. The same people that attach me to Andrew Bynum would have traded him six times already, probably for players we wouldn't even have (at this point). It's OK to attach my name to Andrew Bynum because I think he's a perennial All-Star, that's OK with me, but to say that I wouldn't trade him? That's just unfounded."


Also here is Jimmy talking about the Howard/Nash deals:
The criticism has been relentless, Jim Buss the longhaired spoiled brat, who beyond everything else nasty that could be said, is apparently nothing like his father.

And while he's reluctant to talk about his role in acquiring Steve Nash and Dwight Howard, preferring the Lakers' "front office team" to take the bow, Jim Buss has to admit to feeling goose bumps.

It's about 9:30 Friday morning, the Lakers talking to the NBA office and finalizing the deal for Howard when Buss' phone rings.

It's his father, Jerry.

"He wanted to know the terms of the deal, the teams we were dealing with and who was going where," Jim says. "And I'm saying, 'Dad, you just got out of surgery 14 hours ago; what are you talking about? I can't even believe you're on the phone.'

"I was with him [Thursday] night and he was basically incoherent and he was going to be like that for two or three days. But now the nurse has him on the speaker phone, and while I'm thinking he's fallen off and gone to sleep again, he suddenly wants to know the money situation and who gets what and who gives what. Are you kidding me?

"So I tell him, and then I get an, 'Incredible job, Jim,' from him, and let me tell you, that erases all the insults and anything else anyone has to say. To help make him comfortable and happy, that's what I work for."

As down as everyone has been on Jim Buss, he has now turned the trade exception in letting Lamar Odom go to Dallas into Nash, Andrew Bynum into Howard and Derek Fisher into Jordan Hill.

"The team has done all that," Buss says, by way of correction, but given Nash's and Howard's back injuries, Howard not even running yet and refusing to say when he will be ready, and the age on Nash and Kobe, might the championship euphoria be premature?

"I absolutely agree," Buss says. "But you don't win by playing it safe; you have to gamble and that's what we've always done. I think if you look at this team now, it's one of the best teams we've ever had."

But who is a worse free throw shooter, Howard or Shaq?

"No one is worse than Shaq," says Buss, and the kid is starting to feel frisky,

However, if all this doesn't go well, a la Payton, Malone, Shaq & Kobe, there is no doubt who will be treated like a piñata.

"I know there are always going to be Jim Buss haters; I'm the guy replacing one of the all-time owners in sports. But people don't realize the great teachers I have had over the last 15 or so years. Put these guys as college professors and you'd have the top university with Jerry West, Magic, my dad, Bill Sharman and Phil Jackson. And what does Mitch [Kupchak] mean to me? Everything."

"How exciting is all this?" Buss says. In told everyone the Lakers might start the season with the same personnel as they finished — the critics quick to pounce.

"People are impatient, and I am very patient," he says. "Things change, and what changed was the opportunities. We reached out to Nash; it was a longshot, but when we did, he was intrigued.

"Fortunately, we had the trade exception or we could never have done the deal. We got extremely lucky because Steve took less money to come here. We never expected that to happen."

Buss stops to ask if I have ever met a president.

"There's a certain aura to someone like that; you can be standing right before them and it's still unreal," he says. "That's how I felt with Nash."

He says Howard has what it takes to be the future of the Lakers' franchise, Orlando calling this week out of the blue and Philadelphia's desire for Bynum making it all possible.

"There aren't many players we would trade Bynum for, but Dwight…" says Buss, and right now he's sounding as giddy as most Laker fans. "I'm seeing Dwight at the press conference, but I'm still not believing what I see."


If you look at placing Jeanie in the president's chair, along with bringing in Byron as head coach (along with Showtime cameos at the presser), Swag's 5 year deal, bringing in Lin and Kobe's legacy contract....you have to start thinking that Jimmy needs to get back a better public opinion and if it ain't of the homerun variety, then at least give the fans a nostalgic taste sprinkled wit a bit of current flavor to hold them down till you can feed them the main course again.

You have to ask yourself...why the homerun? Why not just take it slow and meticulously build from the ground up? Its cause Jimmy wants to make his mark now and if not now, then as soon as possible!

The fans are impatient as well, but its cause the FO feeds us that material to begin with. Recall when Jimmy came out on the radio and stated that if the Lakers aren't title contenders in the next few years, he would step down and remove himself from ownership?

Her older brother Jim Buss, 54, in charge of the Lakers’ basketball operations, spoke up in the boardroom of the team’s El Segundo training facility and pledged to resign in a few years if the suddenly dark fortunes of the franchise weren’t reversed.

“I was laying myself on the line by saying, if this doesn’t work in three to four years, if we’re not back on the top — and the definition of top means contending for the Western Conference, contending for a championship — then I will step down because that means I have failed,” he told The Times about the meeting. “I don’t know if you can fire yourself if you own the team … but what I would say is I’d walk away and you guys figure out who’s going to run basketball operations because I obviously couldn’t do the job.”


Then you have Kobe and Byron both saying that we can compete for a title. The FO gave them a pretty large commitment, so you have to assume they have the same opinion. If everybody in Laker land was stating that this is a rebuild and that reaching a title would take some time, then I'm sure fans would be understandingly patient about the process (kind of like how Melo came out and said NY wants to win a title, but that Phil told him that it would take some time). But instead you have key members of the Lakers brass (owner, coach and franchise player) stating that competing for a title is very much possible. Well, then I guess the fans don't have to be patient then....go make it happen.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby NomisR on Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:19 am

Well, I mean, he never even gave any interview until what.. 2-3 years ago? He was the mystery man that everyone was bashing and now you say he's taking credit for everything? You can't have one fan base saying he's not vocal and public enough about what the team is thinking and another saying he's taking credit for every single move. How does that work?

You can say the team wants to appease the fanbase but you can't in the same paragraph bash the team for not getting Phil Jackson, how does that work? Like my previous post, Jim wanted Phil back the first time, and he asked for Phil to come back again the 2nd time. So if he didn't feel that Phil is the one and he had such a huge ego like Magic Johnson and the media tried to portray him, why would be bow down to Phil to try to get him to "hear him out"? Someone with a huge ego and have an animosity towards someone don't do this, not even to appease the fans. And if he was indeed trying to appease the fans, he doesn't reject the coach without the coach saying no first. That's not how it works. That storyline doesn't fly as it flies against the facts of the matter.

Basically, from what I see with the team is them trying to hit home runs and also make to the singles and bunts to try and score. In the previous seasons, we were more or less tied up without a lot of flexibility being in eternal luxury tax. This is basically the first season of being under the cap with room to maneuver which was planned for a long time. Even signing of Swaggy P makes sense, it's someone who the management believe can be beneficial to the organization in the long run, and with the new NBA TV deal coming up, they believe the new cap will be significantly higher which means he'll be worth significantly more, so why not sign him to a longer term deal to hold him in for cheap. Some are hold over moves, some are business moves, but all of it together makes sense. They have a long term plan, we can only speculate on what it is, but it's not like they were going at this blindly. The front office didn't go out and blindly over pay for restricted free agents like Eric Bledsoe or Greg Monroe. If they were just to please the fans, they would've signed both of them, plus Lance Stephenson and Isaiah Thomas. And what team would be have? A luxury cap team with Kobe and no future or flexibility. But hey, those are the players the fans and the ESPN talking heads are saying we should get right?

If you look at this year, we got Kobe, while he's "overpaid" in terms of cap space, the value he brings to the team is many times that of what we pay him. And this is one way of showing the players that we pay them what they're actually worth, the management doesn't expect the players to take pay cuts so the ownership can make money, which is what the teams like the Spurs and Mavericks are doing with Duncan and Dirk. If we do the same, we're not different. With the Kobe deal, this separates the Lakers from the rest, we stand out. Good or bad, it shows that WE ARE THE LAKERS.

We lucked out on Julius Randle, we already got a Jeremy Lin where if you look at him statistically, he's basically comparable with Eric Bledsoe and Isaiah Thomas in terms of production when given the same mins and usage. Plus he's show that he's at least a starter quality player, since typical bench players don't give you back to back 30 point games or triple double in less than 30 mins. So additional spending in that position is not really required. We picked up some old pieces, some reclamation projects, basically, we're building our own assets. Overall, to me, what they're doing makes sense. Stern took us out of immediate contention for the championship but long term, we're fine.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby SFGOLDRUSHER on Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:17 am

I think as Lakers fans, we got to accept&move on from the past. I keep reading countless posts about things that occurred in the past&people getting in arguments over it. Give credit where its due&have faith...Mitch did the BEST he possibly could to give us a serviceable team to make a run at the playoffs.

Hear me out, I RESPECT everyones thoughts,concerns,ideas&countless input they have put in because at the end of the day we all want whats best for the Lakers...Im not saying we have a great shot at the championship this year,but there is PLENTY to look forward to&an opportunity to establish an AWESOME foundation.

Stay positive, lets take things one step at a time&see how we progress over the season. I lost a solid amount of my fire for the Lakers because I was so emotionally invested in the 49ers,but now that we are "down"& "suck" to people out there...This is the time to come together&we will rise very,very soon. Dont forget who this city belongs to. Cheers.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Vasashi17 on Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:02 pm

Nomis: You were wondering why Jimmy has a bad reputation with some fans, so I tried to entertain your inquiry with my own feelings and interpretations on the man.

I maintain that there was alot of posturing that backfired which led to many inconsistencies in how the Laker brand is portrayed today. You may think I am contradicting myself, but if you have the time, you can look over my posts and even my post history to understand that I view Jimmy as an individual that genuinely wants to achieve greatness for the franchise, but primarily so that he receives recognition from naysayers and even his family that has doubted him. Of course its human nature to want to succeed and get the credit deserved as a result. My only problem with his approach is that he does not own up to the many missteps that have taken this franchise many pegs lower from our once lofty position. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree till Jimmy shows me otherwise.

But alas, this is an unforgiving and treacherous retread of what we all have had to endure as Laker fans. Of course leave it up to a fellow 49ers fan to echo my sentiments exactly. I look forward to a healthy Mamba teaming up with a fellow Laker lifer in Scott to change the direction and the attitude of our beloved team. I still feel JImmy needs to earn the trust back from myself as well as other fans that feel like me...so I hope he makes it a priority. I sincerely feel the only way to do that is if he starts looking in the mirror and owning up to the mistakes he and the rest of the basketball operations dept (ie Mitch and Co.) have done over the years. The change needs to begin with them first and if they're unwilling to relent, then we may need new names in the FO.

Till then I hope to remain patient and like SFGoldRusher said, I'm lucky to have the 9ers as a pleasant distraction. I look forward to chatting that topic up in the 49er thread though.

BTW, welcome BACK to the site NomisR and SFGoldRusher. I see you guys joined a while back but are coming out to get your voices heard. Looking forward to your guys' posts and from time to time joining in on the discussion. :beer:
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Lakerjones on Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:35 am

SFGOLDRUSHER wrote:I think as Lakers fans, we got to accept&move on from the past. I keep reading countless posts about things that occurred in the past&people getting in arguments over it. Give credit where its due&have faith...Mitch did the BEST he possibly could to give us a serviceable team to make a run at the playoffs.

Hear me out, I RESPECT everyones thoughts,concerns,ideas&countless input they have put in because at the end of the day we all want whats best for the Lakers...Im not saying we have a great shot at the championship this year,but there is PLENTY to look forward to&an opportunity to establish an AWESOME foundation.

Stay positive, lets take things one step at a time&see how we progress over the season. I lost a solid amount of my fire for the Lakers because I was so emotionally invested in the 49ers,but now that we are "down"& "suck" to people out there...This is the time to come together&we will rise very,very soon. Dont forget who this city belongs to. Cheers.


^^ Nice post SFGOLDRUSHER! :jam2:
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Juronimo on Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:39 pm

Lakerjones wrote:
SFGOLDRUSHER wrote:I think as Lakers fans, we got to accept&move on from the past. I keep reading countless posts about things that occurred in the past&people getting in arguments over it. Give credit where its due&have faith...Mitch did the BEST he possibly could to give us a serviceable team to make a run at the playoffs.

Hear me out, I RESPECT everyones thoughts,concerns,ideas&countless input they have put in because at the end of the day we all want whats best for the Lakers...Im not saying we have a great shot at the championship this year,but there is PLENTY to look forward to&an opportunity to establish an AWESOME foundation.

Stay positive, lets take things one step at a time&see how we progress over the season. I lost a solid amount of my fire for the Lakers because I was so emotionally invested in the 49ers,but now that we are "down"& "suck" to people out there...This is the time to come together&we will rise very,very soon. Dont forget who this city belongs to. Cheers.


^^ Nice post SFGOLDRUSHER! :jam2:


Yes. I like the optimism. I'll admit I haven't been too optimistic lately.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Toklat on Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:04 pm

Glad to see not everyone here is a doom and gloomer... I think it is just too easy when you start reading negative crap to jump in even when the facts don't support that. I believe we are not nearly as bad or as bad off as most seem to think.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby Alcindor on Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:54 pm

NomisR wrote:
Alcindor wrote:Yeah I'm sure Bynum would have got picked regardless of Jim. So that leaves Tomjanovich, Brown and Nash as his known player/coach calls. Then there was the mass firing. The comments about any fan in a bar being to judge prospects was ridiculous. The average fan in a bar doesn't know any non-NBA players outside of maybe the current top kids in college, and that's the ones that are a little more serious about hoops .


Rudy T was a winning coach that had won championships, I think if he worked out, he wouldn't be bad for the team, but coming back from cancer and the additional stress/travel on him with coaching probably doesn't help things. You can't really call this as a bad choice as logically, it was a good choice that didn't work out

With Mike Brown hire, you have to look at other candidates, you had Rick Adelman, and Brian Shaw. Look at how Rick Adelman turned out, he's still not working out for the Twolves. Brian Shaw was an apprentice of Phil Jackson, who lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs, I think the front office wants to move on considering if the master can't do it, his apprentice isnt' going to do any better. And as we've seen in Denver, he's hasn't done it yet either. With Mike Brown, at least he had his record and finals experience that's better than the other 2 coaches. And they had the backing of Kobe, since when Kobe was asked what he wanted for next year, he said more defense. And with Brown, he was known for defense. But either way, no matter who took over would've gotten criticized because he wasn't Phil.

Now Nash, people were expecting injuries and time off from Nash. That was expected. But the collision that resulted in bone fracture and complicated into nerve damage was not. That's where it fell apart. Murphy hit us.



First off, I'm not a Jim hater but I'm also not going to try and sugar-coat and reassign blame for past blunders. I think he means well and is trying to find his way in this gig but this is not the type of job that is forgiving to error. Errors in his position mean years of misery for fans. He's getting a taste of that right now and I hope it is a lesson learned.

And yes, I can say Tomjanovich was a bad choice. Rudy's leaving had nothing to do with his past health problems, he said so. He said it was mental (and physical) exhaustion. There was no force majeure here, it's not like an uncontrollable event happened that changed things. His status in this regard should have been fully scoped out and it wasn't. I also recall reading somewhere (no idea where it was now) that Mitch did not personally sign off on the hire. It is your job when hiring a coach to gauge their enthusiasm for the job, their understanding of where the team is in terms of building and expectations, mental state, physical well-being, etc and clearly this was not done in-depth.

As it was Dr Buss felt responsible for his son's choice and compensated Rudy heavily for basically nothing (9 million. He became a "consultant" for the team). So yes, I stick this on Jim as a bad choice since there wasn't a single event that changed things. The condition Rudy was in to start with wasn't good enough. There was no change.

Mike Brown has his record and finals experience? We know how he got his old record and who got it for him, LBJ. He went back to Cleveland without LBJ and posted a .402 and got fired. LBJ also didn't want him in Cleveland at the end. We all witnessed his crazy indecisiveness with the roster and how he would get bewildered with late-game offense. No one wants him anymore. I'd take Aldeman anyday over him. We've seen what Aldeman can do with the right team in Sac.

Nash, I said I gave him a pass on but sooner or later, enough is enough. If it's all going to be assigned to bad luck, well that amounts to excuses.

Here's another thing. If nothing has been Jim's fault so far how can his own sister (and technically "boss") so publicly condemn the job he's done? I know they have patched things up and Jeanie doesn't comment on him anymore but she has not exactly been a a member of Team Jimbo in the past.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby gill on Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:36 am

To add to the Rudy T hire, I think some folks just look at the end result of that season and call that hire a failure. I put that as one of Jim's great hires and the results in the first half of that season shows: 5 games over .500 before he called it quits due to health reasons (and I believe 5th seed as well). Now THAT was with a lineup of Kobe, Lamar, a raw Caron Butler, Chucky Atkins, Tierre Brown and the ghost of Brian Grant.

As others have said, he just didn't work out due to health reasons. Can't really fault Jim for that.
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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby trodgers on Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:46 pm

Juronimo wrote:
Lakerjones wrote:
SFGOLDRUSHER wrote:I think as Lakers fans, we got to accept&move on from the past. I keep reading countless posts about things that occurred in the past&people getting in arguments over it. Give credit where its due&have faith...Mitch did the BEST he possibly could to give us a serviceable team to make a run at the playoffs.

Hear me out, I RESPECT everyones thoughts,concerns,ideas&countless input they have put in because at the end of the day we all want whats best for the Lakers...Im not saying we have a great shot at the championship this year,but there is PLENTY to look forward to&an opportunity to establish an AWESOME foundation.

Stay positive, lets take things one step at a time&see how we progress over the season. I lost a solid amount of my fire for the Lakers because I was so emotionally invested in the 49ers,but now that we are "down"& "suck" to people out there...This is the time to come together&we will rise very,very soon. Dont forget who this city belongs to. Cheers.


^^ Nice post SFGOLDRUSHER! :jam2:


Yes. I like the optimism. I'll admit I haven't been too optimistic lately.

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Re: Jim Buss = End of the Lakers as we know them...

Postby MadMax on Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:41 pm

:man10:

trodgers, you have a knack for this gif. stuff. :jam2:
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