Jordan Hill Discussion: Back for 2 yr/$18 mil

Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby GoldHammish on Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:38 am

paperplanes wrote:I'm almost positive MWP, Blake, Barnes, Murph, and McBob were all signed as free agents not via trades.

Sure, but it still doesn't support the notion that "The Lakers have largely developed their own players."
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby Rooscooter on Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:50 am

We have drafted/developed players in the past.

Nick Van Exel
Anthony Peeler
Eddie Jones
Elden Campbell
Vlade Divac
Andrew Bynum
Luke Walton
Fisher
Kobe (traded for his draft rights)
Worthy
A.C. Green
Michael Cooper

Among others. Our aversion to drafting currently has nothing to do with "on the court" player production or a philosophy of how to build a team. It's purely a financial decision. The two firsts we traded had a guaranteed cost to ownership of between 16 and 20 million a year (depending on tax level) or between 64 and 80 million over the life of the contracts..... We would have the guaranteed costs yet we don't know what kind of player would be attached to those costs. It looks like we had rather go with proven commodities at the end of their career that we can get for very short contracts or players playing well at the end of their initial contract.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby TIME on Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:54 am

Rooscooter wrote:We have drafted/developed players in the past.

Nick Van Exel
Anthony Peeler
Eddie Jones
Elden Campbell
Vlade Divac
Andrew Bynum
Luke Walton
Fisher
Kobe (traded for his draft rights)
Worthy
A.C. Green
Michael Cooper

Among others. Our aversion to drafting currently has nothing to do with "on the court" player production or a philosophy of how to build a team. It's purely a financial decision. The two firsts we traded had a guaranteed cost to ownership of between 16 and 20 million a year (depending on tax level) or between 64 and 80 million over the life of the contracts..... We would have the guaranteed costs yet we don't know what kind of player would be attached to those costs. It looks like we had rather go with proven commodities at the end of their career that we can get for very short contracts or players playing well at the end of their initial contract.


No doubt in my mind that this is exactly the thought process that the FO has gone through to shift from a draft focused team to a FA/trade built team.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby tttppp on Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:13 am

bruddahmanmatt wrote:
tttppp wrote:
XXIV wrote:^ I'm sure a majority of the owners agreed to it, or do all of the owners have to agree upon the new CBA?


I'm not sure. The new rules basically screw over anyone over the cap. You would think that the teams over the cap would demand that changes be put in place for them to get under the cap easily.

I really have no clue why they put these rules in place. Apparently they are upset about teams like the Lakers out bidding teams for free agents, but that has not been the case. The Lakers have largely developed their own players. They haven't gotten a big name free agent since Shaq.


This is so far from the truth it's ridiculous. Drew, Goudelock, Ebanks and Morris are the only players on our roster who have been here since draft day, and you can include Bryant on that list if you ignore the fact that we technically traded Vlade for his draft rights (he was developed here after all). Beyond those five, Gasol, MWP, Blake, McBob, Barnes, Murph, Sessions, Hill and Eyenga were all acquired via trade.


You are ignoring all the really good players the Lakers have drafted and developed, then let walk for nothing.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby khmrP on Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:51 am

man I want to see this guy get a chance, next to Bynum with the 2nd unit. McRib does nothing out there, I thought he was tough physical defender but in that Hou game Scola back him all the way under the rim :man10:....at least Hill looks somewhat bigger than McRib, if Glock can get back on the floor he can be the floor spacer instead of playing Murphy and HIll/Bynum can protect the paint and clean up the offensive glass. 10-15 mins per game for a few game couldn't hurt to see what he can do, we know what McRib can do and it isn't much so least give this guy a chance and see what he's capable of.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby DirtySoap on Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:44 pm

khmrP wrote:man I want to see this guy get a chance, next to Bynum with the 2nd unit. McRib does nothing out there, I thought he was tough physical defender but in that Hou game Scola back him all the way under the rim :man10:....at least Hill looks somewhat bigger than McRib, if Glock can get back on the floor he can be the floor spacer instead of playing Murphy and HIll/Bynum can protect the paint and clean up the offensive glass. 10-15 mins per game for a few game couldn't hurt to see what he can do, we know what McRib can do and it isn't much so least give this guy a chance and see what he's capable of.



I'd really like to see him get a chance too. There was probably too much pressure for him to come in early in his career as a lottery pick and have the expectations of being a franchise changing big man. But if we adjust our ceiling a bit and start looking at him as a defensive/rebounding fixture I think he could be great for our second unit. He has the size and physical tools already, if he is just asked to focus on the minor things I think he could give our second unit a real identity with Barnes and Goudelock. Hopefully he wasn't exclusively brought in as a salary dump and he gets a real spot in the rotation after going through training camp next season.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby brickshooter on Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:21 pm

Well all that Hill has to do is to beat out McRob & Murphy. We're not asking for him to be the next Karl Malone. The bar isn't set that high.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby Doc Brown on Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:32 pm

Jordan Craig Hill ‏ @jordanchill43 Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Smh...On da way to oakland/san fran...#freejhill


And....another player doesn't like the way Brown is handling minutes/rotation.

Don't blame him either, he looks like a guy that can contribute valuable minutes. Especially on the pick and roll defense.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby The Original 81 on Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:36 pm

Doc Brown wrote:
Jordan Craig Hill ‏ @jordanchill43 Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Smh...On da way to oakland/san fran...#freejhill


And....another player doesn't like the way Brown is handling minutes/rotation.

Don't blame him either, he looks like a guy that can contribute valuable minutes. Especially on the pick and roll defense.


Totally agree. Hill might be useful in the PnR defense he's pretty athletic. I'm sick of our pathetic PnR D being exposed by each and every team.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby tttppp on Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:01 am

Rooscooter wrote:We have drafted/developed players in the past.

Nick Van Exel
Anthony Peeler
Eddie Jones
Elden Campbell
Vlade Divac
Andrew Bynum
Luke Walton
Fisher
Kobe (traded for his draft rights)
Worthy
A.C. Green
Michael Cooper

Among others. Our aversion to drafting currently has nothing to do with "on the court" player production or a philosophy of how to build a team. It's purely a financial decision. The two firsts we traded had a guaranteed cost to ownership of between 16 and 20 million a year (depending on tax level) or between 64 and 80 million over the life of the contracts..... We would have the guaranteed costs yet we don't know what kind of player would be attached to those costs. It looks like we had rather go with proven commodities at the end of their career that we can get for very short contracts or players playing well at the end of their initial contract.


If you cannot afford to even pay your rookies, you might as well sell your team.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby brickshooter on Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:43 am

I don't know why we can't do what the Spurs do with their picks. Just because we have a bikini model and a bartender doesn't mean that we can't also draft like the Spurs, who are also handicapted this entire decade with low picks.

Instead of making Jim Buss accountable, we Laker fans are now experts at making excuses for him. :mad1:
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby therealdeal on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:16 am

tttppp wrote:
If you cannot afford to even pay your rookies, you might as well sell your team.


What? The Lakers have the highest payroll in the league. Your statement makes no sense at all.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby therealdeal on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:18 am

brickshooter wrote:I don't know why we can't do what the Spurs do with their picks. Just because we have a bikini model and a bartender doesn't mean that we can't also draft like the Spurs, who are also handicapted this entire decade with low picks.

Instead of making Jim Buss accountable, we Laker fans are now experts at making excuses for him. :mad1:


Who the heck is making excuses for Buss? He's one of the most universally bashed people on this site and he has done almost nothing to deserve that. The one and only thing he's done that deserves outright criticism was hiring Mike Brown and even so we're fielding a contender and we're still 3rd in the West.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby bruddahmanmatt on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:31 am

tttppp wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:We have drafted/developed players in the past.

Nick Van Exel
Anthony Peeler
Eddie Jones
Elden Campbell
Vlade Divac
Andrew Bynum
Luke Walton
Fisher
Kobe (traded for his draft rights)
Worthy
A.C. Green
Michael Cooper

Among others. Our aversion to drafting currently has nothing to do with "on the court" player production or a philosophy of how to build a team. It's purely a financial decision. The two firsts we traded had a guaranteed cost to ownership of between 16 and 20 million a year (depending on tax level) or between 64 and 80 million over the life of the contracts..... We would have the guaranteed costs yet we don't know what kind of player would be attached to those costs. It looks like we had rather go with proven commodities at the end of their career that we can get for very short contracts or players playing well at the end of their initial contract.


If you cannot afford to even pay your rookies, you might as well sell your team.


Atrocious post is atrocious. The point is that if you're looking for a low risk-high reward type player, it's better to take him in the second round where you can pay him a second rounder's salary. The only reason to hang on to a mid to late 1st round pick is if you really have your eye on a player, think he's a sure thing and think he'll be gone before the second round. Take a guy like Thabeet. The guy was a project going into the draft but because Memphis took him 2nd, he came with a rookie scale K attached to him and managed to pull in a little over $14m in three years and we all know most of his minutes have come in garbage time. When you're drafting role players who are coin flips in terms of will they, won't they pan out, it's better to wait until the second round from a financial standpoint.

@ Roos. BTW while your point stands;

The two firsts we traded had a guaranteed cost to ownership of between 16 and 20 million a year (depending on tax level) or between 64 and 80 million over the life of the contracts.....


these numbers are grossly overstated. Take the pick we traded to New York in 2009 which the Knicks used to draft Toney Douglas for example. Because we had the 29th pick, Douglas ended up towards the bottom of the rookie pay scale. In total he's only made $3,212,880 in three years compared to the numbers I put up for Thabeet who was taken #2 overall. Factor in luxury tax and that's still only $6,425,760. Now I realize that we have the new MEGAtax to take into consideration, but also remember that only the first two years of a 1st rounder's contract are fully guaranteed, years three and four are TOs. Looking at where we are now in the standings we have the 6th best record which would guarantee us the 25th pick. Using next year's rookie pay scale that comes out to:

2012-2013 - $925,100
2013-2014 - $966,700

Even if we were into the fourth year of the repeat offender megatax that still comes out to a little over $8m.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby tttppp on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:32 am

therealdeal wrote:
tttppp wrote:
If you cannot afford to even pay your rookies, you might as well sell your team.


What? The Lakers have the highest payroll in the league. Your statement makes no sense at all.


The Lakers have been selling off their draft picks instead of using them. That statement makes a lot of sense. Selling off your draft picks is something that either a stacked team or a broke team would do. The Lakers are not stacked, so I guess they are broke.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby bruddahmanmatt on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:34 am

tttppp wrote:
therealdeal wrote:
tttppp wrote:
If you cannot afford to even pay your rookies, you might as well sell your team.


What? The Lakers have the highest payroll in the league. Your statement makes no sense at all.


The Lakers have been selling off their draft picks instead of using them. That statement makes a lot of sense. Selling off your draft picks is something that either a stacked team or a broke team would do. The Lakers are not stacked, so I guess they are broke.


Selling off picks so that we have the cash to re-up with Odom and to make room for the raises Bryant, Gasol, Bynum, Artest (and before we traded his a**, Luke) have been receiving every year. Yeah right.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby tttppp on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:35 am

bruddahmanmatt wrote:
tttppp wrote:
Rooscooter wrote:We have drafted/developed players in the past.

Nick Van Exel
Anthony Peeler
Eddie Jones
Elden Campbell
Vlade Divac
Andrew Bynum
Luke Walton
Fisher
Kobe (traded for his draft rights)
Worthy
A.C. Green
Michael Cooper

Among others. Our aversion to drafting currently has nothing to do with "on the court" player production or a philosophy of how to build a team. It's purely a financial decision. The two firsts we traded had a guaranteed cost to ownership of between 16 and 20 million a year (depending on tax level) or between 64 and 80 million over the life of the contracts..... We would have the guaranteed costs yet we don't know what kind of player would be attached to those costs. It looks like we had rather go with proven commodities at the end of their career that we can get for very short contracts or players playing well at the end of their initial contract.


If you cannot afford to even pay your rookies, you might as well sell your team.


Atrocious post is atrocious. The point is that if you're looking for a low risk-high reward type player, it's better to take him in the second round where you can pay him a second rounder's salary. The only reason to hang on to a mid to late 1st round pick is if you really have your eye on a player, think he's a sure thing and think he'll be gone before the second round. Take a guy like Thabeet. The guy was a project going into the draft but because Memphis took him 2nd, he came with a rookie scale K attached to him and managed to pull in a little over $14m in three years and we all know most of his minutes have come in garbage time. When you're drafting role players who are coin flips in terms of will they, won't they pan out, it's better to wait until the second round from a financial standpoint.

@ Roos. BTW while your point stands;

The two firsts we traded had a guaranteed cost to ownership of between 16 and 20 million a year (depending on tax level) or between 64 and 80 million over the life of the contracts.....


these numbers are grossly overstated. Take the pick we traded to New York in 2009 which the Knicks used to draft Toney Douglas for example. Because we had the 29th pick, Douglas ended up towards the bottom of the rookie pay scale. In total he's only made $3,212,880 in three years compared to the numbers I put up for Thabeet who was taken #2 overall. Factor in luxury tax and that's still only $6,425,760. Now I realize that we have the new MEGAtax to take into consideration, but also remember that only the first two years of a 1st rounder's contract are fully guaranteed, years three and four are TOs. Looking at where we are now in the standings we have the 6th best record which would guarantee us the 25th pick. Using next year's rookie pay scale that comes out to:

2012-2013 - $925,100
2013-2014 - $966,700

Even if we were into the fourth year of the repeat offender megatax that still comes out to a little over $8m.


This is not the NFL or MLB. Draft picks cannot hold out and screw you over for big salaries. You have to be in the league a few years and prove yourself to make big money. If you cannot afford to pay a rookie, then please sell the team to someone who can afford to make the payments.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby dj vitus on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:37 am

tttppp wrote:If you cannot afford to even pay your rookies, you might as well sell your team.

It seems like we traded our picks more to entice other teams to give us what we want, not necessarily to save money. Saving money would mean dumping Odom, trading Gasol for an expiring, and offering Bynum a low-ball extension. And asking Kobe to re-sign for significantly less.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby bruddahmanmatt on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:39 am

tttppp wrote:This is not the NFL or MLB. Draft picks cannot hold out and screw you over for big salaries. You have to be in the league a few years and prove yourself to make big money. If you cannot afford to pay a rookie, then please sell the team to someone who can afford to make the payments.


First off, IIRC the NFL has instituted a rookie pay scale of their own with the most recent CBA.

Second, yes, players can still hold out for their 125%. Xavier Henry and Greivis Vasquez ring a bell? Yeah, that's what I thought.

And BTW, what I said about second rounders still stands, if you're looking for a project or a guy who you're not sure will pan out, it makes sense to wait until the second round. You wrong buddy.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby tttppp on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:41 am

dj vitus wrote:
tttppp wrote:If you cannot afford to even pay your rookies, you might as well sell your team.

It seems like we traded our picks more to entice other teams to give us what we want, not necessarily to save money. Saving money would mean dumping Odom, trading Gasol for an expiring, and offering Bynum a low-ball extension. And asking Kobe to re-sign for significantly less.


Sessions was probably an example of that, but the Hill and Joe Smith appear to be deals where the Lakers just dump their pick.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby Doc Brown on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:41 am

Sooo.....

Jordan Hill had some nice plays in garbage time last night. Both on the offensive and defensive ends of the floor.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby tttppp on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:43 am

bruddahmanmatt wrote:
tttppp wrote:This is not the NFL or MLB. Draft picks cannot hold out and screw you over for big salaries. You have to be in the league a few years and prove yourself to make big money. If you cannot afford to pay a rookie, then please sell the team to someone who can afford to make the payments.


First off, IIRC the NFL has instituted a rookie pay scale of their own with the most recent CBA.

Second, yes, players can still hold out for their 125%. Xavier Henry and Greivis Vasquez ring a bell? Yeah, that's what I thought.

And BTW, what I said about second rounders still stands, if you're looking for a project or a guy who you're not sure will pan out, it makes sense to wait until the second round. You wrong buddy.


Yeah, drafting Bynum was a big mistake. We should have waiting until the second round to draft him.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby dj vitus on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:45 am

tttppp wrote:
dj vitus wrote:
tttppp wrote:If you cannot afford to even pay your rookies, you might as well sell your team.

It seems like we traded our picks more to entice other teams to give us what we want, not necessarily to save money. Saving money would mean dumping Odom, trading Gasol for an expiring, and offering Bynum a low-ball extension. And asking Kobe to re-sign for significantly less.


Sessions was probably an example of that, but the Hill and Joe Smith appear to be deals where the Lakers just dump their pick.

Or maybe Hill is actually the next Marc Gasol. :man12:
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby Doc Brown on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:48 am

This is the same weak argument that was had back on pages 7-8 of this very thread. If anyone wants to use a nice quick and easy post to debunk any of tttppp's claims, feel free to snag my posts and use them to debunk the same argument he lost 5 pages back.
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Re: Jordan Hill Discussion Thread

Postby bruddahmanmatt on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:48 am

tttppp wrote:
bruddahmanmatt wrote:
tttppp wrote:This is not the NFL or MLB. Draft picks cannot hold out and screw you over for big salaries. You have to be in the league a few years and prove yourself to make big money. If you cannot afford to pay a rookie, then please sell the team to someone who can afford to make the payments.


First off, IIRC the NFL has instituted a rookie pay scale of their own with the most recent CBA.

Second, yes, players can still hold out for their 125%. Xavier Henry and Greivis Vasquez ring a bell? Yeah, that's what I thought.

And BTW, what I said about second rounders still stands, if you're looking for a project or a guy who you're not sure will pan out, it makes sense to wait until the second round. You wrong buddy.


Yeah, drafting Bynum was a big mistake. We should have waiting until the second round to draft him.


That was a lottery pick taken at #10. Apples and oranges are both quite the tasty treat but (and I hate to be the one to tell this to you), apples be apples and oranges be oranges yo. When we sold to New York in 2009 and New Jersey in 2011 we dealt away the 29th and 27th picks respectively. When all is said and done, we'll likely end up with the 5th or 6th best record this year which means we dealt away the 25th or 26th pick for Ramon Sessions. Perhaps you know of a way we could take what would have been the 26th pick in this year's draft, morph him into Ramon and send him back in time to enable us to have a shot at a title? And the Dallas pick you're whining about, the Mavs have the 13th best record in the NBA which means the 18th pick in the draft son...which means we wouldn't have even received the pick since it's top 20 protected.
Last edited by bruddahmanmatt on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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