Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Kobe isn't playing like an MVP. His offense is efficient as heck but his overall level of play (setting teammtes up for easy shots and picking his spots when the team needs it instead of dominating the ball regularly) is not MVP material. LeBron and Durant shoot too little because they try to get others involved. Kobe's problem is the opposite. This is not the same Kobe who almost always tried to play within the flow of the offense during the 2008-2010 years. Sure he had a few games here and there where he tried to do his thing but for the most part, Kobe did play within the flow of the offense. And that's why this team won championships. Kobe elevated the play of his teammates.

Anyone remember back in the beginning of the 2009-2010 season when Kobe was scoring 40+ points regularly and you didn't even realize he had that many points? It's because he wasn't dominating the ball. Just picking his spots. When a good shot was there, he took it. If it wasn't, he passed to try to get an easier basket. I have no problems with Kobe getting 75 points if it's within the flow of the offense but anytime i see the guy not even look to pass, it makes me cringe. That's not how basketball should be played.

One of two (horrible) things has to be happening, right?

Either D'Antoni is telling Kobe that he is doing fine and "keep it up", or D'Antoni is laying out his plans and Kobe is just ignoring them and going into hero-mode.

The Rock wrote:How stupid are people here complaining about Kobe's shots? You want to give it to MWP? he was 6 for 17. Dwight was 1 for 7. Gasol 2 for 12. WHat the hell is wrong with you guys. Pau got blocked on a dunk go freakin figure

You can't fix stupid bro.

A couple pages ago: I love Kobe I'll miss him when he retires bspn hates kobe but I'll defend him slurp slurp slurp

After a Lakers loss: boo Kobe's a ballhog he needs to pass more 0 assists ruined my night boo panic button

JGC wrote:

borri wrote:Sorry, but anyone blaming Kobe at all for tonight should lose all credibility on CL.

Paulina 2-11
D12 1-7
Ron 6-17

Enough said. If anything Kobe should have gone into complete ballhog mode tonight.

Come on. Do you really think it would have been wise for Kobe to go hero ball and not assist any teammates?

Hero ball? 3 starters and our 6th man shot 9/40 from the field. Thats 22% from the field and missed double digit free throws AGAIN and for the, god knows, how many time.

Do some of you actually watch the game? Or are you all ready to pounce on MDA or Kobe or management at first chance? Would Phil Jackson make our team make free throws? Answer that for me. We have lost more games this year because of fundamental activities that ALL NBA players are suppose to have. Make free throws and make open shots and lay ups. So, Phil Jackson would have changed that? Kobe playing Kobe ball would avoid a 9/40 night from 4 of his guys to what? 10/50?

Here is my advice to many of you. Turn the (bleep) of Sportscenter, watch the game a second time if you have to and learn what is actually going on out there. With YOUR eyes. Not what some stupid hack who never played a drop of sports his whole life or some ahole analyst with an agenda has to say after the game.

You guys should watch Clipper games. There is no one even remotely close to what Kobe does. No one who takes ill advised shots. Everything is team basketball. Everything is geared toward getting the best shot possible. Their leader, CP3, is too unselfish as he has the ability to score at will against anyone. But it makes the team better if your leader is able to get his teammates involved to get them interested and feeling good. Basketball players aren't robots. They are humans with emotions. When you see your leader not even looking to pass, that is a morale killer. Sure, you are expected to play hard as a professional no matter what but it's a lot easier to play hard when you know you will get the ball if you work hard to get open.

As a matter of fact, if anyone on the Clippers tried to pull a Kobe, i think that this player would get a serious scolding from the entire team. That stuff would never fly.

Wow now we got people admiring the Clippers. The panic button is in full effect today folks.

Last I checked, Kobe is a SG now. He's no longer playing the Pippen/Jordan role. It's Nash and Pau who are the facilitators. Kobe's role on this particular team is to score. Period.

Comparing a pure SG like Kobe to CP3 is simply asinine.

The people complaining about assists, they don't realize that if it weren't for Kobe, Nash would had around 5 assists for the entire night....not the 10 that he had.

You can pass the ball all night long and get next to nothing in assists totals. It ain't an assist until someone makes a damn shot.

Gets back to the point.....3 our of 5 main offensive options went 1-7, 2-11, 6-17. What's so damn hard about this?

borri wrote:The people complaining about assists, they don't realize that if it weren't for Kobe, Nash would had around 5 assists for the entire night....not the 10 that he had.

You can pass the ball all night long and get next to nothing in assists totals. It ain't an assist until someone makes a damn shot.

Gets back to the point.....3 our of 5 main offensive options went 1-7, 2-11, 6-17. What's so damn hard about this?

but...but...they were disengaged because Kobe Bryant was taking all the shots and they were feeling bad about themselves. Clearly Kobe should have hugged them and told them everything was going to be ok.

The Rock wrote:How stupid are people here complaining about Kobe's shots? You want to give it to MWP? he was 6 for 17. Dwight was 1 for 7. Gasol 2 for 12. WHat the hell is wrong with you guys. Pau got blocked on a dunk go freakin figure

So.....if your teammates struggle in the first quarter of a game, it's OK to put up 30 attempts and NOT try to move the ball? At all? The whole game?

Understand the basics of basketball...If you've ever played on a team with a guy so good he takes over & doesn't pass--it's demoralizing to be that dudes teammate.You don't want to hustle or give a crap bc you know you're not getting the ball.

A team leader has faith in his teammates--don't matter if you go 1/10, your teammate believes you will hit that 11th shot. Not Kobe last night.

I've complained about Kobe maybe 3 times since joining this forum. I loved the years of Kobe ball that saved us, but with this team, not a winning formula. We need teammates engaged in the game. Teammates are to blame, but so is Kobe. He gives up on them/doesn't trust them.

Please understand basketball & if not go watch tape of 2008-10.

Chillbongo wrote:

The Rock wrote:How stupid are people here complaining about Kobe's shots? You want to give it to MWP? he was 6 for 17. Dwight was 1 for 7. Gasol 2 for 12. WHat the hell is wrong with you guys. Pau got blocked on a dunk go freakin figure

So.....if your teammates struggle in the first quarter of a game, it's OK to put up 30 attempts and NOT try to move the ball? At all? The whole game?

Understand the basics of basketball...If you've ever played on a team with a guy so good he takes over & doesn't pass--it's demoralizing to be that dudes teammate.You don't want to hustle or give a crap bc you know you're not getting the ball.

I've complained about Kobe maybe 3 times since joining this forum. I loved the years of Kobe ball that saved us, but with this team, not a winning formula. We need teammates engaged in the game. Teammates are to blame, but so is Kobe. He gives up on them/doesn't trust them.

Please understand basketball & if not go watch tape of 2008-10.

why give the ball to teammates who cant make shots? Basketball 101. Pau has shot around 40% all year he was 2 for 12 tonight, he got a pass from Kobe and he got blocked a dunk. Why should he get the ball?

Dwight was 5/10 from the free throw line and 1 for 7 from the field all 7 attempts were 3 feet or less why should he continue getting the ball?

MWP is shooting 41% from the field and 31% from 3 point land last 5 games and he was 6 for 17 from the field last night why should he get the ball?

You give the ball to the guy who shooting a good % form the field, Nash did well 6/11 from the field and the other guy was Kobe 14 for 29 who also took the most FT attempts by the way so he was at least shooting a high% from the field AND drawing fouls and getting to the line.


And this BS that teammates dont hustle or defend when they dont get the ball...we gave up like 125 points to Denver last week in a loss where Pau, MWP, Nash had great shooting games so that theory is dismissed now

Sometimes I think I'm visiting the Twilight Zone in this thread.

Kobe did NOT cause his teammates to be ice cold last night. They just were. He did not cause their lack of energy. He did not make Pau and Dwight just stand there at the end of the game and watch when JRich waltzed down the lane for an uncontested dunk. IF what some of you are suggesting was actually true then it would have affected Jordan Hill along with the rest of the team. It didn't seem to my eyes like Kobe sucked the life out of Jordan Hill. Kid was hustling and working out there. Some of our key players just did not show up.

Here is the truth of it. Kobe did his job (at least on offense). He scored the ball at around 50% and he kept us in the game. If he had passed the ball around last night we would have been blown out. The big issue with this team is not with Kobe failing to pass the ball. It's with the lack of consistent energy, effort and defense.

^^
Fair points in those two posts. Seems the issue is with MDA. If Meeks, Hill & Jamison play, we have a different look. They were hitting shots.

I wasn't insinuating that Kobe "CAUSED" them to be cold. As a ball player, I can understand how playing with a score-first player can get teammates mentally out of the game.

Even still, there were crucial moments in the 2nd half that Kobe forced a shot. Given he could get the same look at the end of the shot clock, why not try to move the ball and create easy looks for guys? If that fails, we still get the same bailout shot he had to begin with.

Anyone who didnt think Kobe's shot selection and decision making was nothing short of ridiculous seriously needs a reality check

He claims to be top dog, and with that title he should be held responsible for the Lakers struggles, and rightfully so...he has shot us out of games this season, that's the truth.

Chillbongo wrote:^^
Fair points in those two posts. Seems the issue is with MDA. If Meeks, Hill & Jamison play, we have a different look. They were hitting shots.

I wasn't insinuating that Kobe "CAUSED" them to be cold. As a ball player, I can understand how playing with a score-first player can get teammates mentally out of the game.

Even still, there were crucial moments in the 2nd half that Kobe forced a shot. Given he could get the same look at the end of the shot clock, why not try to move the ball and create easy looks for guys? If that fails, we still get the same bailout shot he had to begin with.

I wasn't aiming my post at you. Just the general tendency to blame Kobe for all the team's ills that some have. I do agree with your point that this is on MDA to figure out and fix instead of endlessly repeating "I don't know..." in his post game interviews.

thisbjgz wrote:Anyone who didnt think Kobe's shot selection and decision making was nothing short of ridiculous seriously needs a reality check

He claims to be top dog, and with that title he should be held responsible for the Lakers struggles, and rightfully so...he has shot us out of games this season, that's the truth.

Anyone who thinks Kobe was the main problem in last night's game needs a reality check.

thisbjgz wrote:Anyone who didnt think Kobe's shot selection and decision making was nothing short of ridiculous seriously needs a reality check

He claims to be top dog, and with that title he should be held responsible for the Lakers struggles, and rightfully so...he has shot us out of games this season, that's the truth.

48% is shooting us out of the game when the rest of the team shot 35%?

Umm you're right, some people do need a reality check.

If we are going to lose, then I seriously wouldn't mind Kobe lighting it up...at least its entertaining.

For the billionth time...this team doesn't play defense, thats why they lose games. You can make an argument that players would play better D if they were more involved on offense....but then again, on a championship team everyone has a role. Kobe happens to be one if not the most potent scorer in this game's long lasting history, he is going to score and people around him better get used to it.

There is no better option than to hand over the ball to probably the greatest scorer in history.

phoenixrisingla wrote:

thisbjgz wrote:Anyone who didnt think Kobe's shot selection and decision making was nothing short of ridiculous seriously needs a reality check

He claims to be top dog, and with that title he should be held responsible for the Lakers struggles, and rightfully so...he has shot us out of games this season, that's the truth.

48% is shooting us out of the game when the rest of the team shot 35%?

Umm you're right, some people do need a reality check.

stop going by stats, did you watch the game? for example there was a fast break with Kobe running on a 2 on 1 with Jordan Hill, Hill was WIDE open and easily couldve gotten the bucket, but Kobe decided to go up with it anyway, yes he got the AND-1..but it just shows the kinda mindset the dude does, he doesn't give two S*@! about getting people involved. Another play when Kobe had Dwight wide open for a lob after a Nash pass, decide to cast it anyways. Not to mention every time Kobe misses a shot he claims to be fouled and looks around all confused not getting back on D..it's not a coincidence that everytime following a Kobe hero ball game, Phil came out to call him out telling him to dial back. He IS the most selfish basketball player in history and while that's part of the reason why we love him, he's also the reason why we're losing because he's failing to realize he can score 50 but the Lakers will STILL lose. Other teams are basically catching on to this Kobe ball show because they know other guys can't hurt them. How many possessions were there when Kobe had the ball and the other four guys is just ball watching not even moving an inch. Is that team basketball? is that LAKER basketball? is that WINNING basketball? Are you guys seriously Lakers fans? or Kobe fans? Seriously it's as if you guys would rather let Kobe drop 50 and take the L. It's mind-boggling.

TIME wrote:Sometimes I think I'm visiting the Twilight Zone in this thread.

Kobe did NOT cause his teammates to be ice cold last night. They just were. He did not cause their lack of energy. He did not make Pau and Dwight just stand there at the end of the game and watch when JRich waltzed down the lane for an uncontested dunk. IF what some of you are suggesting was actually true then it would have affected Jordan Hill along with the rest of the team. It didn't seem to my eyes like Kobe sucked the life out of Jordan Hill. Kid was hustling and working out there. Some of our key players just did not show up.

Here is the truth of it. Kobe did his job (at least on offense). He scored the ball at around 50% and he kept us in the game. If he had passed the ball around last night we would have been blown out. The big issue with this team is not with Kobe failing to pass the ball. It's with the lack of consistent energy, effort and defense.

Yeah, I don't know if I entirely agree with this although there are some fair points. I think sometimes people get caught up in all or nothing discussions and that isn't always the case.

Kobe may not have caused his teammates to go ice cold per se, and I'm not sure if there is anything Kobe can do that would CAUSE every single active Laker teammate to go cold. Unless Kobe hacks a teammates arm, he cannot CAUSE them to miss it. Similarly, no player in the NBA can CAUSE another player to get hot either.

Just because you aren't the cause of the problem, doesn't mean you're not a part of the problem however. There is a big difference, IMO, between causing your teammates to miss, and engaging in behaviors that are unlikely to elevate their play. I think it is the latter that people are referring to when they're criticizing Kobe's recent game against the 76ers. What exactly did he do, to elevate the play of his supporting cast? Did he lead by example on defense? No. Did he pass the ball much? Hardly at all. Did he set up teammates for easy looks? Nope.

But maybe this line of thinking is why Kobe (and the team really) has been playing bad defense. Does bad defense cause made baskets? Nope. It absolutely does not. It only increases the likelihood of made baskets. I've seen plenty of plays where we played horrendous defense and the opponent missed a dunk, layup or wide open jumper.

So does that then, mean defense isn't a problem?

thisbjgz wrote:

phoenixrisingla wrote:

thisbjgz wrote:Anyone who didnt think Kobe's shot selection and decision making was nothing short of ridiculous seriously needs a reality check

He claims to be top dog, and with that title he should be held responsible for the Lakers struggles, and rightfully so...he has shot us out of games this season, that's the truth.

48% is shooting us out of the game when the rest of the team shot 35%?

Umm you're right, some people do need a reality check.

stop going by stats, did you watch the game? for example there was a fast break with Kobe running on a 2 on 1 with Jordan Hill, Hill was WIDE open and easily couldve gotten the bucket, but Kobe decided to go up with it anyway, yes he got the AND-1..but it just shows the kinda mindset the dude does, he doesn't give two S*@! about getting people involved. Another play when Kobe had Dwight wide open for a lob after a Nash pass, decide to cast it anyways. Not to mention every time Kobe misses a shot he claims to be fouled and looks around all confused not getting back on D..it's not a coincidence that everytime following a Kobe hero ball game, Phil came out to call him out telling him to dial back. He IS the most selfish basketball player in history and while that's part of the reason why we love him, he's also the reason why we're losing because he's failing to realize he can score 50 but the Lakers will STILL lose. Other teams are basically catching on to this Kobe ball show because they know other guys can't hurt them. How many possessions were there when Kobe had the ball and the other four guys is just ball watching not even moving an inch. Is that team basketball? is that LAKER basketball? is that WINNING basketball? Are you guys seriously Lakers fans? or Kobe fans? Seriously it's as if you guys would rather let Kobe drop 50 and take the L. It's mind-boggling.

I did watch the game. The stats are an indication of WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

Not the plays that you remember more because they make you mad, and not the plays that you forget because they dont agree with your pre-conceived ideas you've already formed.

If PAU, Dwight, and MWP made more of the shots that they DID TAKE, we would have won the game. END OF STORY.

I'm VERY cool with Kobe shooting less. But when the rest of the team is shooting 35% we have to score points, lest we witness a 20pt blowout to the 76ers.

Am I taking crazy pills???

What i'm seeing is solid, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of Kobe from many different posters and all the Kobe fans are getting so defensive. No one said we lost cause of him. That would be insane. But how can anyone NOT notice his ball hogging ways for many games this year?

Who has the numbers for our team record when he scores under 30, 30+ and 40+? How about taking under 20 shots, 20-25 shots and 25+ shots? Basketball is a team game. As soon as you forget that, you aren't going to win. When your top dog forgets to get your teammates involved, that is a cardinal sin.

phoenixrisingla wrote:I did watch the game. The stats are an indication of WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

Not the plays that you remember more because they make you mad, and not the plays that you forget because they dont agree with your pre-conceived ideas you've already formed.

If PAU, Dwight, and MWP made more of the shots that they DID TAKE, we would have won the game. END OF STORY.

I'm VERY cool with Kobe shooting less. But when the rest of the team is shooting 35% we have to score points, lest we witness a 20pt blowout to the 76ers.

Am I taking crazy pills???

funny thought ... when someone bashes Kobe based on stats ... everybody claims that stats can't picture it ... hmmm but other way around it is acceptable ... not a bash against Kobe ... just a random thought

Lets Go Lakers wrote:What i'm seeing is solid, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of Kobe from many different posters and all the Kobe fans are getting so defensive. No one said we lost cause of him. That would be insane. But how can anyone NOT notice his ball hogging ways for many games this year?

Who has the numbers for our team record when he scores under 30, 30+ and 40+? How about taking under 20 shots, 20-25 shots and 25+ shots? Basketball is a team game. As soon as you forget that, you aren't going to win. When your top dog forgets to get your teammates involved, that is a cardinal sin.

I agree for the most part. Its easy to see he needs to pass more. And it makes the games so much more fun to watch too. lol

But sometimes (like last night) no one else can score.

And yes, we've all seen the Kobe scores >x and the lakers lose, but they're pretty meaningless. Any entry level statistics class will tell you correlation =/= causation on day 1.