Kobe Discussion: Shutting it down; Puts Lakers FO on blast

Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:24 am

John3:16 wrote:
JGC wrote: He's become so predictable that it makes him easier to defend.


Falls on the coach too. After the play I'm thinking "that's the play D'Antoni drew up?" EVERY TIME?

So frustrating.


Yeah, I don't really put it on the coach. I mean, for one, we don't know he isn't drawing up a play although I doubt he is. But let's be real, the play is the same it has always been. Ball to kobe, clear out, let him go 1 on 1 and leave it up to him to make the right play.

And two, I just don't believe in excuses for not closing games. If you're a closer, you close, end of story. If every player could blame the coach's lack of drawing up a play or, drawing up a poor play then everyone would be a closer with those caveats built in.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby phoenixrisingla on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:39 am

At the end of the day, as much of an assassin as kobe still can be, just giving the ball to him at the end of games DOESNT give our team the best chance to win.

MWP was shooting hot last night, Nash shoots a good %...

There may have been a time that just dumping the ball to kobe and watching was the lakers best chance but basted on recent results and having some other very competent players, I just dont think thats the case any more.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby phoenixrisingla on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:43 am

^^Lakerwiz

Your post was really long so I wont quote it, but you made one point that I really agree on. :man1:

People love to point at Kobe's poor percentage on "shots in the last 24secs of a game to win or tie", but what that stat doesnt catch is when kobe scores 10-15pts in the 4th quarter and gets us back in a game.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:52 am

What's the use of having Kobe Bryant if he's not going to take the last shot though? Unless there's a double coming or the defense collapses on him, I EXPECT him to take that shot. He could have probably gotten a slightly better look, but that's a shot he takes and makes.

It didn't go in, but oh well. That's not why we lost.

We lost because of the way we played in the first 3 quarters.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Lakerjones on Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:53 am

lakerswiz wrote:Ehhhhhhhhhh


This whole clutch discussion is always a slippery slope.

In fact I kinda hate every time I have to read or talk about it. :man10:

The amount of variables that go into that one play are so great on a case by case basis that these stat guys looking into the players that are the most 'clutch' is sort of silly to me - especially on a shot percentage basis. That's just silly to me.

IMO, Kobe is the most 'clutch' player in the league, even when you look at the stats and see his lower shooting percentage.

He thinks he's going to make it so much that he truly believe he will make the shot. Every single time. He does not doubt himself. And I can see the doubt on other players in the league. LeBron James. I won't really get into LeBron James and what I think about his personality, because from what I'm able to see on the surface, his insecurities are far greater than anyone really mentions. The way he looks around for confirmation on the court after a player is widely telling. And you know how Kobe will get that look before having to take a huge shot? I've never seen LeBron with a look on his face that said "I'm going to make this mother freaking shot right meow." Kevin Durant is much more Kobe in these 'clutch' situations than LeBron is.

He hates missing, but the reward is far greater than the risk and he's one of the only guys in the league that I believe is 100% fearless. He will shoot the ball in every single scenario. He will take the blame. He will put all of that on his own shoulders. Not too many other guys in the league will do that. Back to LeBron, but I'm pretty sure I've seen him pass the ball to players like Udonis Haslem when he's had time on the clock and was in a mono y mono defensive situation.

He usually steps it up to 100% on both ends in those precious minutes. We saw this last night. After the effortless defensive in the first 3 quarters, he was still able to pull it together and play great defense. And this just doesn't translate to him trying harder on defense, it's boxing out, it's running for loose balls, taking a charge in the middle of a comeback, rebounding, all of it goes up to the highest level he can give us.

Kobe is unique in that he can be clutch when we are down 15. I think that's highly underrated too. These stats that use the last 24 seconds in a tie game or up to a 3 point deficit are just hilarious! Being down by 4 and hitting 3 pointer with 25 seconds left doesn't count in that statistic that is so commonly passed around.

How many times has Kobe started / lead that initial comeback to where we end up benefiting? Didn't he hit 2 huge 3's in a row last night that cut the lead down to something more manageable?

That's clutch as hell to me. Even being down 25 and scoring 8 straight in a game in which we end up winning would be clutch to me.


^^ Great post! :bow:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Lakerjones on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:04 am

lakerswiz wrote:
Lakerjones wrote:
^^ Great post! :bow:

I can do that when I'm not being pretentious or condescending. :man10: Thanks though. :)


^^ :man10:

But seriously, when you lay things out fully Lakerswiz you bring a lot of knowledge and really articulate the finer points in a way that brings the IQ points up here in a major way. Props sir!
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Lakerjones on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:17 am

^^ :beer:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby phoenixrisingla on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:23 am

Love fest in here! :jam2:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby John3:16 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:30 am

phoenixrisingla wrote:Sausage-fest in here! :jam2:


Fixed.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby phoenixrisingla on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:51 am

John3:16 wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:Sausage-fest in here! :jam2:


Fixed.


Repost in every board on site. :man10:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby JGC on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:25 am

lakerswiz wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:^^Lakerwiz

Your post was really long so I wont quote it, but you made one point that I really agree on. :man1:

People love to point at Kobe's poor percentage on "shots in the last 24secs of a game to win or tie", but what that stat doesnt catch is when kobe scores 10-15pts in the 4th quarter and gets us back in a game.

:bow: Exactly! He scores 10-15 in a row and cuts the lead down and he misses that 1 last shot to win or tie the game and now he's unclutch? That's elementary thinking in the world of basketball!


And the stat also doesn't count turnovers, poor defensive plays, fouls, etc. It doesn't count when we have a lead and shots are missed and then we're in such a big hole that we don't even have a chance to tie or take the lead within 24 seconds. What is elementary thinking is when you only track 1 side of the story. For instance, only tracking the positive plays and not the negative plays.

I find it funny that you're joking about Kobe being unclutch by cutting the lead down but missing the the shot to win or tie the game. If you think that is clutch, then no one would ever need to make the final shot in order to be considered clutch.

The reality is, it is neither here nor there. A player can be THREE things and that's what you're missing. He can be clutch, he can be unclutch, and he can just not be clutch. Kobe has definitely NOT been the definition of clutch in recent years, but I wouldn't go so far to say he defined "unclutch" either.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby phoenixrisingla on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:35 am

JGC wrote:
And the stat also doesn't count turnovers, poor defensive plays, fouls, etc. It doesn't count when we have a lead and shots are missed and then we're in such a big hole that we don't even have a chance to tie or take the lead within 24 seconds. What is elementary thinking is when you only track 1 side of the story. For instance, only tracking the positive plays and not the negative plays.

I find it funny that you're joking about Kobe being unclutch by cutting the lead down but missing the the shot to win or tie the game. If you think that is clutch, then no one would ever need to make the final shot in order to be considered clutch.

The reality is, it is neither here nor there. A player can be THREE things and that's what you're missing. He can be clutch, he can be unclutch, and he can just not be clutch. Kobe has definitely NOT been the definition of clutch in recent years, but I wouldn't go so far to say he defined "unclutch" either.


We'd have to get into some pretty detailed stats to really break this down, but I will admit that I have seen Kobe do some of the things you've mentioned.

In my interpretation, he seems to sit comfortably on the CLUTCH side of the argument in terms of 4th quarter production when we really need someone to step up and make it happen.

I will concede however that his Clutch-ness may be a little overblown, or at the very least tapering off in his twilight years.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Finwë on Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:09 pm

karacha wrote:That 3 was too early. However, I do expect one of the best PGs to ever play the game to make the decision when to give up the ball. We could have waited for a better opportunity.

This. We could've drawn up a play or something. Run some action with off the ball movement, looking for an open shooter.. Put Nash in P&P with Kobe. Something. Not once again ISO against a tough perimeter defender....
"The first time I ever saw my uniform hanging in the locker I put it on right away, and it just felt like I was putting on golden armour. From that day forward, I just called it 'the golden armour', it just felt like there was something mystical and magical about it" - Kobe Bryant.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Ariza3 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:28 pm

“@DuranSports: Last 2 seasons, Kobe 3-21 on game-tying or go-ahead FG attempts with < 24 seconds left in game. 0-3 this season. (@espnstatsinfo)”


let Nash take the last shot or at least run a play. Kobe ISO for a 3 isn't gunna work.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby therealdeal on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:29 pm

:man10:

After a two page discussion, it's not surprise that stat pops up.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby John3:16 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:59 pm

therealdeal wrote::man10:

After a two page discussion, it's not surprise that stat pops up.


True story.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Alleyhoops on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:25 pm

lakerswiz wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:^^Lakerwiz

Your post was really long so I wont quote it, but you made one point that I really agree on. :man1:

People love to point at Kobe's poor percentage on "shots in the last 24secs of a game to win or tie", but what that stat doesnt catch is when kobe scores 10-15pts in the 4th quarter and gets us back in a game.

:bow: Exactly! He scores 10-15 in a row and cuts the lead down and he misses that 1 last shot to win or tie the game and now he's unclutch? That's elementary thinking in the world of basketball!

I think you're missing the point. Nobody is saying Kobe isn't clutch in fourth quarters. He usually is. The last shot of a game isn't played out the way every other possession is in the fourth quarter when Kobe's playing within the offense -- off other options that the defense has to cover. That's the glaring difference between those general 4th quarter possessions and the last possession of the game when three guys can swarm over Bryant knowing he's going to hoist a shot no matter what.

If people are saying that because he's brought them back in the fourth quarter, he deserves or has earned the right to be the only option to take the last shot -- that is wayyyyy too predictable, easy to defend and not very good basketball.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby phoenixrisingla on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:28 pm

Alleyhoops wrote:
lakerswiz wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:^^Lakerwiz

Your post was really long so I wont quote it, but you made one point that I really agree on. :man1:

People love to point at Kobe's poor percentage on "shots in the last 24secs of a game to win or tie", but what that stat doesnt catch is when kobe scores 10-15pts in the 4th quarter and gets us back in a game.

:bow: Exactly! He scores 10-15 in a row and cuts the lead down and he misses that 1 last shot to win or tie the game and now he's unclutch? That's elementary thinking in the world of basketball!

I think you're missing the point. Nobody is saying Kobe isn't clutch in fourth quarters. He usually is. The last shot of a game isn't played out the way every other possession is in the fourth quarter when Kobe's playing within the offense -- off other options that the defense has to cover. That's the glaring difference between those general 4th quarter possessions and the last possession of the game when three guys can swarm over Bryant knowing he's going to hoist a shot no matter what.

If people are saying that because he's brought them back in the fourth quarter, he deserves or has earned the right to be the only option to take the last shot -- that is wayyyyy too predictable, easy to cover and not very good basketball.


No, we didnt miss the point.

We both agree with you, if you read back through the thread. :jam2:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Alleyhoops on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:31 pm

phoenixrisingla wrote:
Alleyhoops wrote:
lakerswiz wrote:
phoenixrisingla wrote:^^Lakerwiz

Your post was really long so I wont quote it, but you made one point that I really agree on. :man1:

People love to point at Kobe's poor percentage on "shots in the last 24secs of a game to win or tie", but what that stat doesnt catch is when kobe scores 10-15pts in the 4th quarter and gets us back in a game.

:bow: Exactly! He scores 10-15 in a row and cuts the lead down and he misses that 1 last shot to win or tie the game and now he's unclutch? That's elementary thinking in the world of basketball!

I think you're missing the point. Nobody is saying Kobe isn't clutch in fourth quarters. He usually is. The last shot of a game isn't played out the way every other possession is in the fourth quarter when Kobe's playing within the offense -- off other options that the defense has to cover. That's the glaring difference between those general 4th quarter possessions and the last possession of the game when three guys can swarm over Bryant knowing he's going to hoist a shot no matter what.

If people are saying that because he's brought them back in the fourth quarter, he deserves or has earned the right to be the only option to take the last shot -- that is wayyyyy too predictable, easy to cover and not very good basketball.


No, we didnt miss the point.

We both agree with you, if you read back through the thread. :jam2:

Will do. I get lazy sometimes. :man12:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby phoenixrisingla on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:34 pm

Alleyhoops wrote:Will do. I get lazy sometimes. :man12:


No worries. :bow:

I thnk we all agree that the problem is that EVERYBODY and their mother knows we're going to force it to kobe, and kobe is going to force a shot. We make it VERY easy on the other team.

Remember back when teams started thinking that so we'd get a quick dish to Fish, Horry, Rick Fox, etc in the corner for an open 3?

I'd rather have Nash, MWP, etc miss a wide open jumper than see kobe force it up with 2 defenders inside his jersey. :man2:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby nolQQkpass on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:19 pm

not only does he get the ball at the end of the game. he gets the ball at the end of every quarter.. havent capitalized much with either
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Uncle Drew on Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:12 pm

KobeBryant
#vamos #juntos #lakercorazon #vino
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Lets Go Lakers on Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:56 pm

What i don't understand about Kobe is that when the team is all healthy and it would benefit the team more if he facilitated, he forgets the team. But when we are short handed and need a boost from him, he tends to sit back. It's like he does the opposite of what the team needs from him.
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby wcsoldier81 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:02 am

Way too many 3s this season ... he should live on the low block especially right now .

What the hell is going on with his FT shooting too :man3:
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Re: Kobe Bryant Discussion: ten 30pt game streak

Postby Armani on Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:09 am

It feels like his 3 point shot has abandoned him? Or is it just a cold spell? Either way, he needs to limit how many of those he takes.
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