Kobe Discussion: Happy with the FO effort (806)

Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby last stand on Sat May 04, 2013 10:37 pm

actually derrick rose did deserve it. statistically he was comparable to lebron that season, and on top of that he had the better record with less offensive talent. he was the offense essentially.

now dwight howard had a case that season as well for MVP. lebron not so much, statistically he was fine but he coughed up a ton of games that season at the end, and overall wasn't himself. he produced but having actually watched the miami heat more times than just their nationally televised games that year, he didn't deserve it.

having said that, every MVP lebron won, every single one, he deserved 100%. he was statistically superior on a team with a superior record. there is literally no argument to be made against any of his MVPs, not one.

Kobe's MVPs weren't even interfered with by lebron. 2009 and 2010? well people forget that kobe wasn't producing like the best player in the league in the regular season. don't get me wrong he was great, but when kobe proved he was the best was in the playoffs. but the MVP isn't given after the playoffs

i don't understand why people are so intent on discrediting lebron's MVPs. who should have won them, if you can't make a case for kobe, which you can't during lebron's MVP years then who gets it?

kobe deserved MVPs in 2003 and 2006. he was robbed. especially in 2006 a year in which nash was given the MVP for leading an injured team, while kobe was ignored for leading a team to 45 wins instead of 50 despite the team being full of D-leaguers

2003 kobe had arguably one of the better statistical seasons of all time, a season people forget. 30ppg 7rpg and 6apg and was arguably the best player in the league from that season on. he should have won the MVP but kobe and shaq split votes. there is a reason why shaq only has 1 in the trophy case as well.

but the basic point is kobe should have won in 2003, 2006, and did win in 2008

what is the common thread with those 3 years, lebron won 0 MVPs in those years. So why are people so angry at lebrons MVPs. who are they supposed to give it to. Tony parker? lol. carmelo anthony? lol

or last season durant? lol or chris paul? lol

2009 and 2010 may sour some people but leading those cavs teams with our favorite coach mike brown to 60+ wins while producing incredible statistics give him the award.

kobe won the other award that he earned, 2 Finals MVPs.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby scheven on Sat May 04, 2013 10:40 pm

To be completely honest as the biggest Kobe fan, all MVPs awarded are well-deserved by the receiving players based on the MVP standard that was set for a long time. It has always been given to a statistically dominant player on the best team record-wise. Teams that didn't have these type of players were never really considered (think post-2003 Spurs, 04-07 Pistons, 08-10 Celtics, Ron's Pacers). It's almost like the award was made for Lebron's career (beast numbers in regular season + best record, choke in the playoffs until last year)

If there was a Playoffs MVP (given to the best player between two Finals teams), Kobe would have at least 5 (2002, 2004, 2008-2010). Lebron would have 3 (2007, 2011-2012).

In the end, the media could talk about how great Lebron is with his 4 MVPs and counting because after all, it IS their award. But the great ones know it's all about ring count.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Sat May 04, 2013 11:51 pm

I don't know how you can say Rose deserved it when these last two seasons have proved just how much less valuable he is than people thought. Thib's defense and the collection of hard workers on that team are the reason the Bulls were so good. Rose just happened to be the flashy guy that scored a lot and his impact just isn't there at the level of a true MVP. The Bulls won the equivalent of 62 games last season with Rose playing in just 39 out of 66 games. In the games he missed the Bulls went 18-9. This season they dealt with a bunch of injuries and still advanced to the 2nd round despite losing another two key players IN the playoffs. Meanwhile Rose sits on the bench like a bum despite being cleared for months. Thibs is honestly the true MVP of that team.

The 2011 MVP belonged to Dwight. He put up awesome numbers and had crazy defensive impact, that team had a lot of bums on it and they still won 52 games.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Sun May 05, 2013 12:08 am

scheven wrote:To be completely honest as the biggest Kobe fan, all MVPs awarded are well-deserved by the receiving players based on the MVP standard that was set for a long time. It has always been given to a statistically dominant player on the best team record-wise. Teams that didn't have these type of players were never really considered (think post-2003 Spurs, 04-07 Pistons, 08-10 Celtics, Ron's Pacers). It's almost like the award was made for Lebron's career (beast numbers in regular season + best record, choke in the playoffs until last year)

If there was a Playoffs MVP (given to the best player between two Finals teams), Kobe would have at least 5 (2002, 2004, 2008-2010). Lebron would have 3 (2007, 2011-2012).

In the end, the media could talk about how great Lebron is with his 4 MVPs and counting because after all, it IS their award. But the great ones know it's all about ring count.


Back in 2004 Kevin Garnett won it, but the Pacers had the best record in the NBA, no one from that team had any MVP mentions I don't think. The Spurs had the best record in the NBA in 2000-2001, we won the championship but Allen Iverson was the NBA's MVP. I guess it's whoever has the best individual statistics on any one of elite teams with winning records **shrugs**
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby Rooscooter on Sun May 05, 2013 12:12 am

Well the confusion here is that the MVP is an awarded given to the best player in the game. It should be an individual award based on individual performance not on how good their teammates are. They have no control over that.

Breaking down team performance is a part of it but so is performance under pressure. How many game winning shots or 4th qtr scoring in close games would seem very important in looking at the best player. LeBron was not good at all at either of those metrics until recently.... Not one of Nash's strengths either. Howard?.... Please
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Sun May 05, 2013 12:18 am

Hi there, I was watching the Miami Heat vs. Nets game on TNT and they were discussing the fact that shaq only had one MVP award in his career. Then I don't know which "analyst" said something like this "A reason why he might not have won more MVP's was his troubles with Kobe Bryant and people were turned off by that." I was soo angry cuz they failed to mention that some of those years where shaq was in his prime Kobe was getting some MVP consideration himself and therefore taking some of those votes. But being the true idiots they are they decided to blame Kobe for shaqs lack of MVP awards in his career. I hate these freakin stupid analysts who come up with these idiotic theories. I guess its one more thing to blame on Kobe, so while we're at it lets blame him for the rising gas prices. Anyone else hear this? Does anyone know who that "analyst" was?


Yep. But where is the part that it's Kobe's fault? Shaq and Bryant had conflicts for couple years, so people thought they were more interested in this activity instead of giving it all on the court. I know it's bs but it might have looked like this.

But there is some truth in this thread's name. Many people and analysts thing that if you have another all-star in your team, you can't be the MVP. That also kept Kobe from winning it. I think it's wrong to think this way. But if they give the MVP award to Nash (who has two all-stars in his team), it will prove that both Shaq and Kobe didn't deserved to be excluded from consideration because of the reason I stated.


Oh here's the top 3 MVP candidates the year Iverson won

Shaq was more efficient than Both Duncan and Iverson very dominant still didn't win...

2001
First: Iverson, 31.1 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.6 apg, 42.0% FG, 71 G, 56 team wins
Second: Duncan, 22.2 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 3.0 apg, 49.9% FG, 82 G, 58 team wins
Third: Shaq, 28.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 57.2% FG, 74 G, 56 team wins
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby scheven on Sun May 05, 2013 12:46 am

Jazzygirl205 wrote:
Hi there, I was watching the Miami Heat vs. Nets game on TNT and they were discussing the fact that shaq only had one MVP award in his career. Then I don't know which "analyst" said something like this "A reason why he might not have won more MVP's was his troubles with Kobe Bryant and people were turned off by that." I was soo angry cuz they failed to mention that some of those years where shaq was in his prime Kobe was getting some MVP consideration himself and therefore taking some of those votes. But being the true idiots they are they decided to blame Kobe for shaqs lack of MVP awards in his career. I hate these freakin stupid analysts who come up with these idiotic theories. I guess its one more thing to blame on Kobe, so while we're at it lets blame him for the rising gas prices. Anyone else hear this? Does anyone know who that "analyst" was?


Yep. But where is the part that it's Kobe's fault? Shaq and Bryant had conflicts for couple years, so people thought they were more interested in this activity instead of giving it all on the court. I know it's bs but it might have looked like this.

But there is some truth in this thread's name. Many people and analysts thing that if you have another all-star in your team, you can't be the MVP. That also kept Kobe from winning it. I think it's wrong to think this way. But if they give the MVP award to Nash (who has two all-stars in his team), it will prove that both Shaq and Kobe didn't deserved to be excluded from consideration because of the reason I stated.


Oh here's the top 3 MVP candidates the year Iverson won

Shaq was more efficient than Both Duncan and Iverson very dominant still didn't win...

2001
First: Iverson, 31.1 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.6 apg, 42.0% FG, 71 G, 56 team wins
Second: Duncan, 22.2 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 3.0 apg, 49.9% FG, 82 G, 58 team wins
Third: Shaq, 28.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 57.2% FG, 74 G, 56 team wins

Shaq had Kobe, Duncan had Robinson, Iverson had Eric Snow :man10:
It's impressive he took that team to get the second best record in the league, 2 wins away from the best.
As for the Pacers, teams built like that usually don't win MVPs. Same for Pistons and Kings.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby last stand on Sun May 05, 2013 10:49 am

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:I don't know how you can say Rose deserved it when these last two seasons have proved just how much less valuable he is than people thought. Thib's defense and the collection of hard workers on that team are the reason the Bulls were so good. Rose just happened to be the flashy guy that scored a lot and his impact just isn't there at the level of a true MVP. The Bulls won the equivalent of 62 games last season with Rose playing in just 39 out of 66 games. In the games he missed the Bulls went 18-9. This season they dealt with a bunch of injuries and still advanced to the 2nd round despite losing another two key players IN the playoffs. Meanwhile Rose sits on the bench like a bum despite being cleared for months. Thibs is honestly the true MVP of that team.

The 2011 MVP belonged to Dwight. He put up awesome numbers and had crazy defensive impact, that team had a lot of bums on it and they still won 52 games.


But the you answered your own question. Now we know how thibs may have been more important, but back then it looked like rose

It's easy to say things in hindsight. At the time with the knowledge that we had rose deserved it. A case could be made for Dwight considering he met all of the requirements. Crazy stats, lots of wins, tons of impact, but I'm not mad at them for giving it to rose

I haven't been upset about an MVP award since 2006.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby JoelMyersScrotalSack on Sun May 05, 2013 12:01 pm

Nah I've never felt like Rose deserved it and was even more disgusted when the results were almost unanimous in his favor.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Sun May 05, 2013 3:31 pm

scheven wrote:
Jazzygirl205 wrote:
Hi there, I was watching the Miami Heat vs. Nets game on TNT and they were discussing the fact that shaq only had one MVP award in his career. Then I don't know which "analyst" said something like this "A reason why he might not have won more MVP's was his troubles with Kobe Bryant and people were turned off by that." I was soo angry cuz they failed to mention that some of those years where shaq was in his prime Kobe was getting some MVP consideration himself and therefore taking some of those votes. But being the true idiots they are they decided to blame Kobe for shaqs lack of MVP awards in his career. I hate these freakin stupid analysts who come up with these idiotic theories. I guess its one more thing to blame on Kobe, so while we're at it lets blame him for the rising gas prices. Anyone else hear this? Does anyone know who that "analyst" was?


Yep. But where is the part that it's Kobe's fault? Shaq and Bryant had conflicts for couple years, so people thought they were more interested in this activity instead of giving it all on the court. I know it's bs but it might have looked like this.

But there is some truth in this thread's name. Many people and analysts thing that if you have another all-star in your team, you can't be the MVP. That also kept Kobe from winning it. I think it's wrong to think this way. But if they give the MVP award to Nash (who has two all-stars in his team), it will prove that both Shaq and Kobe didn't deserved to be excluded from consideration because of the reason I stated.


Oh here's the top 3 MVP candidates the year Iverson won

Shaq was more efficient than Both Duncan and Iverson very dominant still didn't win...

2001
First: Iverson, 31.1 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.6 apg, 42.0% FG, 71 G, 56 team wins
Second: Duncan, 22.2 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 3.0 apg, 49.9% FG, 82 G, 58 team wins
Third: Shaq, 28.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 57.2% FG, 74 G, 56 team wins

Shaq had Kobe, Duncan had Robinson, Iverson had Eric Snow :man10:


But LeBron has Chris Bosh, and D-Wade :man10:

It's impressive he took that team to get the second best record in the league, 2 wins away from the best.
As for the Pacers, teams built like that usually don't win MVPs. Same for Pistons and Kings.


Only if they had the "LeBron exception" they would :man10:

So scratch out best player on the best team, best player on the best team with the best record, most efficient (Shaq was more efficient, shot better, produced better etc)? It's about doing less with more? Derrick Rose did the same thing shot a similar percentage to Iverson the season he took his team to the top of the league, but people said he shouldn't have won? Even fans don't know what the MVP award represents anymore :man10: They just follow whatever analyst say.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby CGrand81 on Sun May 05, 2013 4:31 pm

^^^

I agree with you no one really knows what the formula is to crown the MVP. However I do believe that LeBron has deserved all his MVP's and if he continues to play at this ridiculous level he will probably get at minimum 6 of them.

But since 06 who would you give the MVP to. I'm assuming Kobe in 2006, who'd you choose from 2007-present.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby Battle Tested20 on Sun May 05, 2013 5:05 pm

O MY...A Must Watch.

One of the best in the business did it again, theperson18

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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby JGC on Sun May 05, 2013 5:12 pm

Still don't understand all the confusion around MVP awards in here.

People act like it is some enigma and random nobodies are winning this thing. There is a pretty clear cut formula here year in and year out.

The MVP award is never a surprise. If challenged, almost any knowledgeable basketball fan can usually and accurately pick the top 3 candidates and often, in the proper order.

Why can't we here at CL, or, can we?
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby Basketball Fan on Sun May 05, 2013 5:33 pm

By the time this is done this could make an interesting property law case study

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/go ... f-auction/

Goldin Asks Court to Keep Kobe Out of Auction
May 5, 2013 By Editor


4
Goldin Auctions has asked a U.S. District Court for a declaratory judgment in the case of disputed ownership of Kobe Bryant memorabilia. The New Jersey auction company filed court papers on Friday after receiving a cease and desist letter from Bryant’s attorney over the impending sale of items from his life as one of basketball’s biggest stars. The auction company is asking a federal judge to keep Kobe "from interfering with the auction".

The court filing also indicates there are hundreds of other items relating to her son’s life and career in Pamela Bryant’s possession that haven’t been consigned yet—but could be.

Founder and owner Ken Goldin had announced the auction last week, a large consignment of potentially valuable uniforms from Bryant’s high school career as well as awards and championship rings. According to court papers, Pamela Bryant, Kobe’s mother, had contacted Goldin on December 27 and was presented with a $450,000 advance on January 3. She used the money to purchase a home.

On Friday, Philly.com reported that Kobe Bryant's attorney, Mark Campbell, had sent the company a letter telling them the items didn’t belong to Pamela Bryant and asked them to put a halt to the sale, which was scheduled to conclude next month.

Goldin’s claim says Bryant “had no interest” in the Lower Merion High jerseys and memorabilia and that both the Lakers’ star and his wife had told Pamela Bryant several years ago that they didn't want them back. Pamela Bryant says she’s had the items for over 15 years and they've been sitting in a New Jersey storage unit for more than five years, while she paid $1,500 per month for fees and insurance.

“The evidence will show that even if he didn’t give them to her, he at the very least, abandoned them,” Goldin’s attorneys state in the court filing.

Goldin claims if the judge doesn’t rule that the auction process can continue, his business will suffer “irreparable harm” and that stopping the auction could have a negative effect on auctioneers’ attempts to sell goods from similar situations in the future (see below).

Goldin’s lawyers believe Bryant doesn’t have much interest in the items but simply doesn’t want them sold.



The court papers indicate Pamela Bryant has 900 other items in her possession relating to her famous son’s life and career that are worth $1.5 million. Those, too, could be headed for the auction block if Goldin succeeds in turning back Kobe’s efforts.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby Nikez on Sun May 05, 2013 5:38 pm

I'm still not sure why a team's record matters when it comes to an INDIVIDUAL award.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby Weezy on Sun May 05, 2013 5:53 pm

Nikez wrote:I'm still not sure why a team's record matters when it comes to an INDIVIDUAL award.


Because how else do you determine a successful season? Record has to factor in to some degree, even if it's just getting a mediocre or bad team to the playoffs (like Kobe in 06, and this season, because he did get 5th place), record gets you consideration at least. Main reason is also because plenty of players put up big numbers on bad teams and their teams don't make the playoffs, does that make them valuable? Or can it mean they get to shoot a lot on a bad team and inflate their stats too? A lot of times that is why they put up big numbers. It's the same with All-Star team selections too, team record factors in, guys that are taking their team toward the playoffs get rewarded.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby Jazzygirl205 on Sun May 05, 2013 6:15 pm

Nikez wrote:I'm still not sure why a team's record matters when it comes to an INDIVIDUAL award.


**SHRUGS** Have no idea, kind of adds on to the discussion though.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby Nikez on Sun May 05, 2013 6:15 pm

^^^^It should play a factor weezy but recently it has been the main if not the most important factor when it comes to the criteria. There has never been a better example than kobe in 06 when he was clearly the most lethal player in the league but finished 4th because of his scrub teammates. So unless an MVP canidate's performance is literally keeping his team from winning then I think team record should make very little difference in the voting.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby Weezy on Sun May 05, 2013 8:34 pm

It hasn't only been recently that it's been the main factor, look back at the list of all MVPs throughout history, it's almost always been the biggest factor. That is the one thing in fact, that I would say has always remained a set criteria. In fact, having a first place/high record might be most responsible for getting guys MVP's some might not agree with and think there were more deserving candidates, like Iverson, Garnett, and Rose. Really that's one of the biggest issues I have with the award, because usually if you have the best record it means you not only have a top player, but also a great team around him. So being one of the absolute top teams record wise in the league should IMO not play THAT big of a role in the award, but it always has.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby JGC on Sun May 05, 2013 8:53 pm

Me thinks people here may have forgotten the primary purpose of playing the game. It's to win the games. Not rocket science here folks. So that's why winning games matters.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby dj vitus on Sun May 05, 2013 9:08 pm

JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:I don't know how you can say Rose deserved it when these last two seasons have proved just how much less valuable he is than people thought. Thib's defense and the collection of hard workers on that team are the reason the Bulls were so good. Rose just happened to be the flashy guy that scored a lot and his impact just isn't there at the level of a true MVP. The Bulls won the equivalent of 62 games last season with Rose playing in just 39 out of 66 games. In the games he missed the Bulls went 18-9. This season they dealt with a bunch of injuries and still advanced to the 2nd round despite losing another two key players IN the playoffs. Meanwhile Rose sits on the bench like a bum despite being cleared for months. Thibs is honestly the true MVP of that team.

But Miami won a bunch of games that LeBron skipped, too. Can't have it one way and not the other, so this might not help your argument.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby CGrand81 on Sun May 05, 2013 9:31 pm

dj vitus wrote:
JoelMyersScrotalSack wrote:I don't know how you can say Rose deserved it when these last two seasons have proved just how much less valuable he is than people thought. Thib's defense and the collection of hard workers on that team are the reason the Bulls were so good. Rose just happened to be the flashy guy that scored a lot and his impact just isn't there at the level of a true MVP. The Bulls won the equivalent of 62 games last season with Rose playing in just 39 out of 66 games. In the games he missed the Bulls went 18-9. This season they dealt with a bunch of injuries and still advanced to the 2nd round despite losing another two key players IN the playoffs. Meanwhile Rose sits on the bench like a bum despite being cleared for months. Thibs is honestly the true MVP of that team.

But Miami won a bunch of games that LeBron skipped, too. Can't have it one way and not the other, so this might not help your argument.


Small sample size vs a large sample size. Do not know how to look it up but I didn't remember LeBron missing a ton of games the past 2 years, no where near the extent of Rose.
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby Snake Eyes on Sun May 05, 2013 11:10 pm

I'm sorry if this has been posted before. I found this to be a good video about Kobe.

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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby Battle Tested20 on Sun May 05, 2013 11:33 pm

Snake Eyes wrote:I'm sorry if this has been posted before. I found this to be a good video about Kobe.


I posted it last page, but I'm glad you posted it again. It's a great mix just for people to accidentally not see it.

To Be Continued...... :jam2:
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Re: Kobe Discussion: Klapper video, possible 6 months (646)

Postby Vasashi17 on Mon May 06, 2013 12:09 am

I'm happy and sad at the same time watching that.

Happy that he's not done yet and will return.
Sad that after him, will there ever be another one to don a Laker uni?
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