Kobe Discussion: Clash of the Titus! (671)

easyguy · by **easyguy** on Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:54 pm

John3:16 wrote:
easyguy wrote:You think there is a conspiracy on why he doesn't get those foul calls? There is always a reason behind everything, mind if I ask you why do you think Kobe isn't getting those calls?

A few reasons, in no particular order:

- He whines and/or cusses at the refs
- He shows them up with his hand and arm gestures
- Refs aren't in awe of Kobe like they were Jordan
- Kobe usually has the advantage and maybe, subconsciously, they're evening the playing field

I heard a quote once from one of Jordan's teammates that he once told a ref "don't you ever make that call again" and didn't get a tech and they didn't make that call on him ever again.

Wow I totally did not expect your reasoning. That is exactly how I see it. I think Kobe wants more respect from the refs, but he feels as though they are not giving him the same royal treatment.

Magic Skywalker · by **Magic Skywalker** on Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:20 pm

borri wrote:ESPN loves the Kobe shoots too much angle.

Kobe - 17 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game....5 years. Career 19.3 FGA per game.

Jordan - 15 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game.....12 years. Career 22.9 FGA per game.

ESPN loves to point out that because Kobe shoots so much, his teammates become disengaged and won't play defense.....YET, those Bulls teams played excellent defense....WITH Jordan taking more shots than Kobe. LOL.

It's obviously an agenda folks. Just put ESPN on ignore.

I'll just add that LeBron has a career 20.3 FGA per game.

borri · by **borri** on Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:09 pm

Some would argue, well Kobe had Shaq, that's why he shot less than MJ.

FACT: Since 05-06 to present....Kobe shot the ball over 22 times per game 3 years out of the 8 that he's played without Shaq.

FACT: 05-06 and 06-07....we had SCRUBS on our team. He HAD to shoot for us to win. Those 2 years he shot the ball 27.2 and 22.8 respectively. Last year....new coach, new system shortened season....Metta way out of shape and sucked bad, Kobe shot the ball 23 times per game. He HAD to, Drew was constantly doubled and tripled teamed. Pau was on and off on the agressive meter.

Where ESPN comes up with Kobe shooting too much is BEYOND me.

cthroatgtr · by **cthroatgtr** on Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:17 pm

Do the people saying Kobe is shooting too much watch the games??? How many times did his shooting output get preceded by Stu & Bill saying...the team is really struggling to score out there how long before Kobe decides to take over...or Kobe may start to get aggressive out there or...wow Lakers down 18 to Washington Generals?

venky · by **venky** on Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:41 pm

Texas Lakers Fan, saying Kobe is the Witten of the NBA is plain wrong for two reasons:

1. Witten started his career after Kobe. You don't make those kind of comparisons to someone that came after you. It would make more sense to say Kobe is the Emmitt Smith of the NBA (Emmitt came before Kobe, both highly productive, consistent, durable)

2. Witten, as good as he is, is nowhere close to being an athlete that Kobe is. Even if Witten came before Kobe, he still hasn't accomplished anything for that comparison to be warranted. That's why saying Kobe is like Witten is an insult. And this is coming from a Cowboys fan as you very well know, so don't think I'm hating on Witten, because that isn't even close to be true.

Also, lol at thinking Kaepernick is better than Tony Romo. I mean my lord, dude has an elite running game and defense and still can't do anything against a bad NE defense without his team getting him turnovers and another kickoff return.

Will Kaep be better? Sure, it's definitely possible, I won't rule it out. He's a heck of an athlete. But saying at THIS point in time that he's better than Romo, it's just plain false. And I don't even hate the guy, he's a joy to watch when he's out of the pocket.

I won't claim Romo is elite, but he's definitely above average and in that 2nd tier of QB's.

kobe_mamba · by **kobe_mamba** on Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:43 pm

I've never really put this out there to people too seriously, because firstly, I used to watch a guy called Magic Johnson play for the Lakers, then there were these other guys through the years like Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, West, Bird, Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell, etc - and of course then there is everyone's love of The Great Michael Jordan - but really I think this is becoming more obvious every day....

Kobe Bryant = GOAT :bow:

BDG · by **BDG** on Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:55 pm

borri wrote:ESPN loves the Kobe shoots too much angle.

Kobe - 17 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game....5 years. Career 19.3 FGA per game.

Jordan - 15 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game.....12 years. Career 22.9 FGA per game.

ESPN loves to point out that because Kobe shoots so much, his teammates become disengaged and won't play defense.....YET, those Bulls teams played excellent defense....WITH Jordan taking more shots than Kobe. LOL.

It's obviously an agenda folks. Just put ESPN on ignore.

Thank you. Kobe never had teammates like Jordan's, who had a defense-first mentality.

Being disengaged because you're not getting the ball as a role player is just a sign that you're mentally weak.

Finwë · by **Finwë** on Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:54 pm

BDG wrote:
borri wrote:ESPN loves the Kobe shoots too much angle.

Kobe - 17 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game....5 years. Career 19.3 FGA per game.

Jordan - 15 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game.....12 years. Career 22.9 FGA per game.

ESPN loves to point out that because Kobe shoots so much, his teammates become disengaged and won't play defense.....YET, those Bulls teams played excellent defense....WITH Jordan taking more shots than Kobe. LOL.

It's obviously an agenda folks. Just put ESPN on ignore.
Thank you. Kobe never had teammates like Jordan's, who had a defense-first mentality.

Being disengaged because you're not getting the ball as a role player is just a sign that you're mentally weak.

This

Greatest of All Time · by **Greatest of All Time** on Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:01 pm

kobe_mamba wrote:I've never really put this out there to people too seriously, because firstly, I used to watch a guy called Magic Johnson play for the Lakers, then there were these other guys through the years like Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, West, Bird, Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell, etc - and of course then there is everyone's love of The Great Michael Jordan - but really I think this is becoming more obvious every day....

Kobe Bryant = GOAT

If you said this, most people would look at you like you're crazy. These very people have become indoctrinated by what I like to call "The Jordan Myth". 500 years ago or whatever, if you told someone the world was flat, they would also look at you like you're crazy. The ultimate authority figure at of the time, The Church, promoted this idea and imprisoned those who spoke against it. Back then, The Church was the ultimate authority fallacy.

In the last 500 years, there have been advances in the fields of science and statistics. I don't deny that there is truth in the use of these tools for measurement and analysis of every day phenomena. However, in modern times, science and statistics have replaced The Church as the ultimate authority fallacy. People have agendas and many "scientists" and "statisticians" shape their "studies" to fit their agendas. Frauds posing as "scientists" and "statisticians" conduct pseudo-scientific studies to "prove" their claims. Yahoo news, which caters to these impressionable types like to post stories about things like "These foods affect the type of dreams you have". Another one is this whole gene craze everyone is doing, blaming actions and lifestyle choices on genes. My favorite is when Yahoo posts contradicting articles about the best and highest-paying college degrees.

In these types of articles, the authors always refer to the researchers, but they never describe the research methods used to draw such conclusions. And still, the sheeple gobble it all up like fresh green grass in a field or meadow or wherever sheep like to graze. They repeat this information as gospel and say things like "science proves this..." or "statistics prove that..." and cite this pseudo-scientific "research" to support their arguments. By doing this, they are referring to "science" and "statistics" as if they are entities, infallible beings that make decrees for all the people to obey. Science and statistics can be effective TOOLS of measurement, but they are not the ultimate end-all, be-all that most sheeple blindly accept.

So if you should ever encounter a situation where you are ridiculed and laughed at, I say, meet them with the same smug arrogance, knowing they are just as crazy as they think you are.

Michael Jordan - Greatest of All Time? Yeah, greatest at being overrated.

All hail Lord Bryant, our G.O.A.T and savior. :bow:

Jazzygirl205 · by **Jazzygirl205** on Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:13 pm

Nikez wrote:Who exactly was doing the scouting on kobe? And who were the managers there were talking about him shooting too much? Because I honestly doubt that men who work in the NBA at that level would be making such stupid, age old conclusions about Kobe, especially this season where he has been forced to carry the team. Kobe is the greatest offensive weapon in NBA history and you wouldn't want to utilize that? That's like asking Reggie miller to quit shooting so many 3's and instead do more drive and kick plays because his teammates are getting frustrated.

Sometimes I wish kobe would purposely try to not score and get his teammates involved so people would realize how much we blow when that happens. In fact, it was the only game of Kobe's life he was criticized for "not trying", the second half of game 7 against the suns in 2006, we came pretty close to winning that

Then people would be complaining about him not applying enough offense talking about "Kobe sucks, what is he doing why isn't he doing anything".

Kobe is the only player in NBA history who people complain about scoring too many points or so called shooting too much. But when it's other players fans or non-fans sit and be amazed like "Omg did you see how many points he scored, omg, darn the 50 field goal attempts he's so amazing"!!!! "He's gonna be great in the future"!! "He works so hard, omg favorite player ever"!!
Kobe has 50 points? Ugh how many assists did he have? How many fg did he take? It's weird.

Jazzygirl205 · by **Jazzygirl205** on Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:16 pm

borri wrote:ESPN loves the Kobe shoots too much angle.

Kobe - 17 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game....5 years. Career 19.3 FGA per game.

Jordan - 15 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game.....12 years. Career 22.9 FGA per game.

ESPN loves to point out that because Kobe shoots so much, his teammates become disengaged and won't play defense.....YET, those Bulls teams played excellent defense....WITH Jordan taking more shots than Kobe. LOL.

It's obviously an agenda folks. Just put ESPN on ignore.

The more you learn..

Jazzygirl205 · by **Jazzygirl205** on Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:23 pm

Magic Skywalker wrote:
borri wrote:ESPN loves the Kobe shoots too much angle.

Kobe - 17 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game....5 years. Career 19.3 FGA per game.

Jordan - 15 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game.....12 years. Career 22.9 FGA per game.

ESPN loves to point out that because Kobe shoots so much, his teammates become disengaged and won't play defense.....YET, those Bulls teams played excellent defense....WITH Jordan taking more shots than Kobe. LOL.

It's obviously an agenda folks. Just put ESPN on ignore.

I'll just add that LeBron has a career 20.3 FGA per game.

Well..well...well...

charvin · by **charvin** on Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:22 pm

Reading that just makes you appreciate unselfish, team-first players even more. For example, Jordan had Pippen and Rodman who would openly defer because wins mattered much more to them than individual statistics. Hell, Rodman would've liked to not have touched the ball at all on Offense, and he fit the defense-first mould.

BDG wrote:
borri wrote:ESPN loves the Kobe shoots too much angle.

Kobe - 17 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game....5 years. Career 19.3 FGA per game.

Jordan - 15 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game.....12 years. Career 22.9 FGA per game.

ESPN loves to point out that because Kobe shoots so much, his teammates become disengaged and won't play defense.....YET, those Bulls teams played excellent defense....WITH Jordan taking more shots than Kobe. LOL.

It's obviously an agenda folks. Just put ESPN on ignore.
Thank you. Kobe never had teammates like Jordan's, who had a defense-first mentality.

Being disengaged because you're not getting the ball as a role player is just a sign that you're mentally weak.

odom1year · by **odom1year** on Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:20 pm

borri wrote:ESPN loves the Kobe shoots too much angle.

Kobe - 17 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game....5 years. Career 19.3 FGA per game.

Jordan - 15 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game.....12 years. Career 22.9 FGA per game.

ESPN loves to point out that because Kobe shoots so much, his teammates become disengaged and won't play defense.....YET, those Bulls teams played excellent defense....WITH Jordan taking more shots than Kobe. LOL.

It's obviously an agenda folks. Just put ESPN on ignore.

Is there a stat of FGA of Kobe as a starter ? BTW, we all know that MJ is the most selfish ballhog in NBA history. Especially before 90s.

Forward Three · by **Forward Three** on Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:43 pm

Even Lakers fans get a little frustrated with Kobe 'shooting too much' but what we usually mean by that isn't that he took 20+ shots in a game, it's usually more along the lines of "why'd he have to take that turnaround jumper at that moment?!?"

Kobe doesn't 'shoot too much' overall, but he does have a tendency to take sort of 'hero/look at me' shots at times, this is most evident when he hits a tough shot and then on the next possession takes another tough shot with 15 seconds left on the clock, he has that shooter's confidence that everything is going in and if he makes one tough shot he feels like he will make the next 3 or 4, sometimes he doesn't, and it is frustrating and it makes even Lakers fans scream "stop shooting!" but in the bigger picture, to say he 'shoots too much' is to admit to simply not being familiar with Kobe's Lakers.

Of course, the point that Kobe haters will never concede to is that Jordan had the exact same penchant to take 'dumb' hero shots in exactly the same type of way and just as surely as Kobe frustrates us sometimes, 90s Bulls fans were frustrated at Jordan at times for the same exact stuff.

borri · by **borri** on Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:51 pm

odom1year wrote:
borri wrote:ESPN loves the Kobe shoots too much angle.

Kobe - 17 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game....5 years. Career 19.3 FGA per game.

Jordan - 15 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game.....12 years. Career 22.9 FGA per game.

ESPN loves to point out that because Kobe shoots so much, his teammates become disengaged and won't play defense.....YET, those Bulls teams played excellent defense....WITH Jordan taking more shots than Kobe. LOL.

It's obviously an agenda folks. Just put ESPN on ignore.

Is there a stat of FGA of Kobe as a starter ? BTW, we all know that MJ is the most selfish ballhog in NBA history. Especially before 90s.

Kobe became a fulltime starter in the 1998-1999 season. He has been a starter for 15 years. And shot the rock over 22 times per game for 5 of those years.

King of Clutch · by **King of Clutch** on Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:52 pm

TrillyandTruly wrote:

The new Christmas' Kobe 8 System. This signature shoe draws inspiration from the "rhinoceros viper and features bright red and yellow scales that mimic a Christmas tree garland." Looks sick in my opinion. A lot better than last year's "cheetahs." Definitely going to cop this!

My goodness those are gorgeous.

King of Clutch · by **King of Clutch** on Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:12 am

Also, with the whole kobe debate. I'm not even going to touch on it anymore. Its the same crap over kobe's entire career. With shaq, who he was still able to win 3 rings with, in the mid 2000's days, and even now. Its been 17 years of hearing "kobe shoots too much". I saw the article on espn and shook my head saying, they make one of these highly publicized kobe hate articles almost every year. Last year it was henry abbott on clutch shots. This year is him shooting too much, even though he's shooting less than last year, while having a higher fg% and averaging more points. It just gets tiring. It seems as though the see and end to kobe's career, and see the people he's passing up different categories. Like how he passed many in point totals, leading lakers history in numerous stats, and soon to pass mj in playoff points. They seem to not want kobe getting any glory, so they bad mouth him as much as they can, and make sure that when he does great things, it doesn't seem as great.

I remember when he scored 81, thats when espn showed their true colors. People were saying that it wasn't anything special, and how many times he shot, but they ignore how many shots wilt to to get that 100, which was SEVENTEEN more shots than kobe, and even 12 more free throws. What he did as a guard, who didn't physically just pound people and dunk again and again and again. He got his 81 all over the floor. Yet you actually had people saying that it was nothing special. A smart man would call that the greatest offensive performance in the history of the nba. But analysts would never say that. If Durant did this today, they would call it the greatest offensive performance in league history. But not kobe, because he's kobe.

It's almost as if kobe came too soon. Kobe was in the all star game wowing the crowd in the "greatest of all time" mj's last all star game. People knew the comparisons would come, but its almost as if they weren't ready. Personally I have reached a point where I don't let the media influence my opinions in any way about kobe. I've said it numerous times that i'm kobe's biggest fan, and i've criticized him to an extent that some here called me a kobe hater. That hit me, but it also let me know that i'm not blinded. I personally see Kobe Bryant as the greatest player to ever play the game of basketball that i've ever seen. And espn, or any other network won't change that.

Finwë · by **Finwë** on Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:27 am

King of Clutch wrote: But not kobe, because he's kobe.

Sadly, this. Story of his career for the most part.

wcsoldier81 · by **wcsoldier81** on Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:29 am

It's not really about the number of shots , it's about shots selection ...

Kobe still takes too many iso 3s , long shots over double teams ect ... Jordan was a beast at creating "easy" shots ( well at least creating shots at his sweet spots) ... he sure took some horrible shots during his career but a lot less than Kobe ...

If you watch Jordan 50pts games from 84 to around 90-91, he had those without scoring a single 3pt shot... Of course different era , different rules AND he was thousand miles ahead of the rest of the league in the athleticism category ... but Jordan focused more on taking the type of shots he was the most effecient at ... while Kobe is still taking shots from every spot on the floor because he thinks he can hit shots from everywhere ( which is correct but not the most efficient approach).

Zone D and way better wings defenders can't be overlooked when you talk about Kobe inferior FG% than MJ though

therealdeal · by **therealdeal** on Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:47 am

The stat about Kobe shooting less than 20 FGAs per game is a little misleading. That's driven almost exclusively by his first few years in the League. In the last 13 years Kobe has only averaged less than 20 FGAs a game once.

Not to say that he's selfish, just pointing that out.

Finwë · by **Finwë** on Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:48 am

wcsoldier81 wrote:It's not really about the number of shots , it's about shots selection ...

Kobe still takes too many iso 3s , long shots over double teams ect ... Jordan was a beast at creating "easy" shots ( well at least creating shots at his sweet spots) ... he sure took some horrible shots during his career but a lot less than Kobe ...

If you watch Jordan 50pts games from 84 to around 90-91, he had those without scoring a single 3pt shot... Of course different era , different rules AND he was thousand miles ahead of the rest of the league in the athleticism category ... but Jordan focused more on taking the type of shots he was the most effecient at ... while Kobe is still taking shots from every spot on the floor because he thinks he can hit shots from everywhere ( which is correct but not the most efficient approach).

Zone D and way better wings defenders can't be overlooked when you talk about Kobe inferior FG% than MJ though

I agree. Also, like I pointed out before, Kobe averages 45% from the field in his career to Jordan's 50%. To many people that's a significant factor, but when taking 20 shots a game, that 5% difference equals ONE shot.
Jordan made one more shot per 20 taken than Kobe in his career. Considering his superior athleticism (to Kobe's and to the rest of the league at the time), different rules and other factors (less 3s, which are harder and hitting 40% is considered very good, for example), I don't think the difference is that relevant..

lakerzkb8 · by **lakerzkb8** on Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:21 am

borri wrote:ESPN loves the Kobe shoots too much angle.

Kobe - 17 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game....5 years. Career 19.3 FGA per game.

Jordan - 15 years in the league. Shot the ball over 22 times per game.....12 years. Career 22.9 FGA per game.

ESPN loves to point out that because Kobe shoots so much, his teammates become disengaged and won't play defense.....YET, those Bulls teams played excellent defense....WITH Jordan taking more shots than Kobe. LOL.

.

MJ averaged 50+ FG% 6 of those 12 seasons. The knock isnt on taking shots. Its on missing shots and taking them at a high volume anyway. This year i dont get the hate because kobes been efficient, but theres an argument there on past years.

Ultimately, its those 3 point attempts that brings Kobes percentages down. He takes more bonehead shots then other stars throughout his career as well.

Magic Skywalker · by **Magic Skywalker** on Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:50 am

Finwë wrote:I agree. Also, like I pointed out before, Kobe averages 45% from the field in his career to Jordan's 50%. To many people that's a significant factor, but when taking 20 shots a game, that 5% difference equals ONE shot.

Jordan made one more shot per 20 taken than Kobe in his career. Considering his superior athleticism (to Kobe's and to the rest of the league at the time), different rules and other factors (less 3s, which are harder and hitting 40% is considered very good, for example), I don't think the difference is that relevant..

CaCHooKa Man · by **CaCHooKa Man** on Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:41 am

King of Clutch wrote:
TrillyandTruly wrote:

The new Christmas' Kobe 8 System. This signature shoe draws inspiration from the "rhinoceros viper and features bright red and yellow scales that mimic a Christmas tree garland." Looks sick in my opinion. A lot better than last year's "cheetahs." Definitely going to cop this!

My goodness those are gorgeous.

got my pair reserved at footlocker

Kobe Discussion: Clash of the Titus! (671)

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